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The CRB says that the Gap might've occurred while the Golarion universe was merge with other alternate universes, which might've caused cosmic shifts, explaining why alignment no longer interacts with mortal spells, to the point where the Detect Alignment, Protection from Alignment, Magic Circle against Alignment, and Alignment Smite spells no longer work.
Or alternatively, people have simply discovered how to make undead without channeling Urgathoa's essence through their own bodies, thus her evil no longer enters the caster's body when they cast Animate Dead.
Magical understanding has gone a long way since the time of Golarion, if people have managed to completely remove the need for spell components and tear down the arcane/divine divide in the time since Golarion, then it's not too far of a stretch to say that casters have managed to discover how to raise undead without it being an evil act.
Mindless undead are most likely still always evil, as the negative energy animating them will instinctively seek out to snuff out positive energy.
We know they're objective, or is that just fanon head canon?
There are a lot of assumptions being made for game mechanics here that have no particular reason to apply. If they do apply, feel free to attach a rules reference.
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I am curious to hear whether rules for undead PC's will be present in Alien Archive and, if not, are there any plans to ever publish them. This feels doubly interesting because PC generation rules differ fundamentally from NPC generation rules, while undead in Starfinder aren't Always Evil and are heavily represented in a major faction (Eox), making them more widely appealing from a player perspective.
In addition, the undead 'No con score' thing would make them mechanically tricky.
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Belief systems have changed. On Pathfinder Golarion, people believed the creation of undead was an evil act, but that was not always the case (1st and 2nd edition AD&D). Good and evil are what people believe them to be.The pathfinder setting (to the best of my knowledge) has never operated on the assumption of morality being relative- which is something I really appreciate about the setting. People can believe whatever the hell they want- that doesn't change whether or not their actions are objectively good or evil.
But since what is good or evil or a moral non-event is externally imposed, and may have nothing to do with beliefs or intent or results (using the dead in a graveyard to save their descendants from a hobgoblin invasion and then returning them to their graves, for instance, or just using skeletons of animals to work the fields and provide food for the living), that means that whatever force is externally imposing that 'rule' is just as capable of changing it's mind and changing that rule, as it was of making that rule in the first place.
If the only reason why creating undead was always evil before was 'because Pharasma said so,' then the only reason why creating undead *may* no longer be always evil can *also* be 'because Pharasma says so.'
She plays the fiddle. The rest of us just dance. if she changes the tune, we just have to dance to the new rhythm.
(OMFG, I hate the word rhythm. I never spell it right the first time! Or the fifth, for that matter...)
Anywho, that's the downside of 'because I say so, now shut up and eat your green beans' rules. Your character doesn't get any say in whether or not what they are doing is good or evil, lawful or chaotic, justifiable or unforgivable. It's determined top-down, and you always get to be bottom. If the 'top' decides that topsy is now turvy, it doesn't matter how much you liked topsy being topsy, or agreed with the logic of it. Turvy's the new topsy. 2+2=5. We have always been at war with Eastasia.
That is an interesting thought. It definitely seems that the nature of reality used to be rather different until the Maelstrom and the Abyss came in contact with each other, inquisitive proteans meeting the qlippoths, [SNIP]
I read 'inquisitive proteans' as 'Protean Inquisitors' and my world went sideways for a bit trying to process what *those* would look like... :)
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I'm betting that there will be a supplement for pc necrografts at least even if we don't get full undead pcs.
I believe the entry on Eox mentions how people go there for Necrografts as they're cheaper than conventional augmentations.
In addition, the undead 'No con score' thing would make them mechanically tricky.
Would it? Most armors make you immune to radiation and several environmental hazzards, so being immune to effects that require a Fortitude save won't be as unbalancing. And I imagine undead get Cha to Stamina just like they got Cha to HP in Pathfinder.
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Most people will be happy with that reasoning but it doesn't jive with what lore has been with the universe (and I thought this was the same one) that mucking around with undead is canonically bad evil juju. Lore wise there has been no shortage of making this clear for years and now it suddenly not so bad.From what Creative Director Sutter and Moreland have said when I've asked them, repeatedly, about it possibly 2 things happened.
1) something in the universe changed on a metaphysical level, in which case we would like an explanation on that since that's not mechanics like BAB and classes, that's a fundamental way in which the universe functions that has completely changed.
2) something more and more brought, and kinda danced around, is that Starfinder is not an alternate future to Pathfinder, but a future to an alternate Pathfindee where things have always been this way, which raises so many more questions and implications...
or 3) Starfinder and Pathfinder have different creative directors with different philosophies on game design and setting, and are working in different genres. Clearly, given the opportunity to build a new system, they went a certain way that past folks didn't.
There might be a in-setting justification for the change in how alignment works or is perceived, but its almost certainly something fitted onto the existing mechanics, rather than the mechanics fitted (for this part of the rules) onto setting flavor.
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I wrote about it in another thread, but it is more on topic here.
Undead should not be evil in *Pathfinder*. They shoukd be evil in *Golarion*. In that world lore, undeads are evil because that is what the creative director wants (although several AP break from this)
As a system, setting aside, they should not be evil. There are a LOT of non evil undeads in many different lores. Buffy/Angel. The ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi. The Crow. Sixth Sense. Several undead guardians of good aligned god kings in Incas and egyptian myths. Sylvanna Windrunner in WoW. Coldhands in Song of Fire and Ice. Will Turner in Pirates of the Caribbean. Arguably, maybe the ghosts that Aragorn summon are neutral. And many others.
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It shouldn't be evil at all- what you do with them makes it evil, golarion or not, creative director or not. Galvanizing a corpse and making it carry boxes isn't a big deal. Binding someone to their corpse to do assassination work at your whim forever, more of a problem.
That's just a minor semantic quibble.It's just making robots out of meat. What is there to be evil about?If that were true, the resulting creatures would be constructs (like flesh golems or animated objects), and not undead.
No, it's game terminology. To the best of my knowledge, animate objects can be cast on a corpse (in Pathfinder; the spell isn't in the Starfinder core rulebook). It doesn't give the same result as animate dead. (And animate objects can be made permanent, if that makes a difference to you.)
Starfinder Design Lead
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Which is what inquiring minds want to know. They how and the why.The how is that in Starfinder canon, necromancy was never evil. That descriptor was never part of the spell, it just was never a thing.
We didn't say that. I doubt we'd ever say that.
Necromancy has never been universally evil.
In the Pathfinder Core Rulebook, bleed is not evil. Fear is necromancy, and is not evil.
Finger of death, which is not just necromancy it's death magic, is not evil.
Disrupt undead not only isn't evil, it directs a ray of positive energy. With necromancy.
There's never been any canon that the power of necromancy is, itself, always evil. I think a ton of paladins probably have death ward, and that's necromancy.
If you count the total necromancy spells in the core rulebook, and see how many are evil, I'm pretty sure you'll find MOST necromancy is not inherently evil.
So, necromancy can be evil, or not.
In Pathfinder, all methods of creating undead we presented were evil. In Starfinder, they're not.
In Pathfinder most undead were evil, but a few were not. We've stated the same is likely true in Starfinder, though we have yet to publish nearly as many undead stat blocks, so there's no canon of the ratio yet.
Magic missile changed too.
Because Starfinder is a different game than Pathfinder. As the Adventure Card Game is a different game, and some things work differently. As Pathfinder Online is a different game, and some things work differently.
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I've long viewed the case in Pathfinder is that evil undead creation spells are evil because the spells are purposefully making barely-controlled murder-fanatics, not well behaved meat robots. People currently controlling them may think they are meat robots, but as soon as control slips they are back to murder time. By the time Starfinder rolls around the process could be refined to allow for other forms of animation.
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Most people will be happy with that reasoning but it doesn't jive with what lore has been with the universe (and I thought this was the same one) that mucking around with undead is canonically bad evil juju. Lore wise there has been no shortage of making this clear for years and now it suddenly not so bad.From what Creative Director Sutter and Moreland have said when I've asked them, repeatedly, about it possibly 2 things happened.
1) something in the universe changed on a metaphysical level, in which case we would like an explanation on that since that's not mechanics like BAB and classes, that's a fundamental way in which the universe functions that has completely changed.
2) something more and more brought, and kinda danced around, is that Starfinder is not an alternate future to Pathfinder, but a future to an alternate Pathfindee where things have always been this way, which raises so many more questions and implications...
or 3) Starfinder and Pathfinder have different creative directors with different philosophies on game design and setting, and are working in different genres. Clearly, given the opportunity to build a new system, they went a certain way that past folks didn't.
There might be a in-setting justification for the change in how alignment works or is perceived, but its almost certainly something fitted onto the existing mechanics, rather than the mechanics fitted (for this part of the rules) onto setting flavor.
Yes I am aware they have different creative directors with different philosophies, I never claimed otherwise. I also haven't been asking "did they change this?" We know they did. They said they did. That's not what I'm asking.
I'm asking for the in-universe reason for the change. Not the meta, we already know that.
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I agree with Stone Dog.
Once we see the write-up for undead, we'll see what their default settings are.
If the mindless types target your opponents like summoned monsters, it wouldn't be any worse than evocations.
If they stay in murder-death-kill mode when not commanded... then it would be a different story.
I wrote about it in another thread, but it is more on topic here.
Undead should not be evil in *Pathfinder*. They shoukd be evil in *Golarion*. In that world lore, undeads are evil because that is what the creative director wants (although several AP break from this)
As a system, setting aside, they should not be evil. There are a LOT of non evil undeads in many different lores. Buffy/Angel. The ghost of Obi Wan Kenobi. The Crow. Sixth Sense. Several undead guardians of good aligned god kings in Incas and egyptian myths. Sylvanna Windrunner in WoW. Coldhands in Song of Fire and Ice. Will Turner in Pirates of the Caribbean. Arguably, maybe the ghosts that Aragorn summon are neutral. And many others.
Angel/Spike ended up being Good after they were cursed with a soul, every other vampire in the series was auto-evil. Without the curse they turned back Evil too. Sylvanas is definitely not-Good. Will Turner is a Pyshopomp I believe.
And ghosts have always been the exception, that's kinda their thing.
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It reminds me of the GURPS city setting "Abydos." In that setting in general undead are evil because the general population are Abrahamic faiths and there aren't any groups of Christians, Jews, or Muslims keen on walking corpses or vampires. However, the city of Abydos is home to a section that venerates Lazarus as the saint of... I think resurrection. So they are okay with being made into skeletons, zombies and other undead as a form of Last Rites.
Or another GURPS setting, Technomancer, where the criminal sentence "death plus hard labor" leads to zombie chain gangs in the American South.
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Regardless of necromancy, undeads should not be inherently evil. Most of them are, sure, just like most of drows or most of orcs are. But it should not be a mandatory trait, at least not in the core rulebook. Even in Golarion there are examples of good aligned ghosts.
Regardless of necromancy, undeads should not be inherently evil. Most of them are, sure, just like most of drows or most of orcs are. But it should not be a mandatory trait, at least not in the core rulebook. Even in Golarion there are examples of good aligned ghosts.
And again Ghosts are the exception, not the standard. There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts.
Drow and Orcs are Humanoids and have nothing in them that makes them auto-Evil.
Undead are Undead though.
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Exactly, Rysky. In some settings undead are mostly tools. In some settings, like Pathfinder, undead are mostly distilled malevolence poured into a corpse. Both examples have their exceptions, of course.
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Exactly, Rysky. In some settings undead are mostly tools. In some settings, like Pathfinder, undead are mostly distilled malevolence poured into a corpse. Both examples have their exceptions, of course.
... And sometimes Pure Malevolence is a nearly mindless Kaiju who likes to fight other Kaiju who happen to already be attacking stuff in order to soothe the raging beast inside...
...Or am I thinking of the Hulk?
Different settings and/or different monsters.
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Er, yes, minerals are dead...Android bodies where not alive before they gained a soul. Something that is not alive is, by definition, dead. Putting a soul into a dead body is, by definition, necromancy. This necromantic act may have occurred by accident, or at the volition of the soul itself, rather than have been done deliberately by the creator of the body, but it is still necromancy.That wasn't always the case. The first androids where originally constructed by humans as mechanical servants. Putting a soul into a non-living body is necromancy. Androids came into being via necromancy.Androids are made in ways that don't cross ethical and moral reasons, from what I remember the Android body is made and a soul decides to inhabit it, which is completely different than creating Undead.What do you mean by "monsters"?
Something for the players to beat to death? Plenty of robots for that.
Anyway, we know that at least some artificial beings have souls (androids). Therefore constructing one involves the manipulation of souls. Ergo, constructing a robot with partial AI may require the use of a partial soul.
No it's not. It could be Conjuration since you're summoning the soul. We don't have exact rules for creating Androids so it's a moot point.
Androids =/= Undead
What? No.
That logic is nonsense. Minerals aren't dead just for starters. No, just, no.
Merriam Webster defines dead as "deprived of life" or "no longer living". Dictionary.com says the exact same thing. Minerals, and other inanimate objects, were never alive (having life) and therefore can't stop being alive. Therefore, they aren't dead.
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Merriam Webster defines dead as "deprived of life" or "no longer living". Dictionary.com says the exact same thing. Minerals, and other inanimate objects, were never alive (having life) and therefore can't stop being alive. Therefore, they aren't dead.That logic is nonsense. Minerals aren't dead just for starters. No, just, no.Er, yes, minerals are dead...
Quoted for emphasis.
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However, manipulating souls is still necromancy. Just because there is a functional AI in there doesn't make an android anything more than a fancier vessel for magic jar. Which is necromancy.
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Angel/Spike ended up being Good after they were cursed with a soul, every other vampire in the series was auto-evil. Without the curse they turned back Evil too. Sylvanas is definitely not-Good. Will Turner is a Pyshopomp I believe.
And ghosts have always been the exception, that's kinda their thing.
This is incorrect. Angel was cursed with a soul, but Spike chose one. He was selfish and obsessive, and his desire to be "good" was more of a desire to be "good enough," but he still chose. Free will, even if tilted, means they aren't inherently and exclusively evil. Yes, vampires in that setting were sociopaths, and thus very nearly all of them were evil, but they still had a choice. That is still important.
That's a bit of an aside, and it's only noteworthy when discussing tropes. I think that's important, though. There are sapient undead in Starfinder. They have freewill. They are not all beyond redemption.
People like hard lines too much. They drain the dynamism from a setting. I'd much rather play in a world where the lich isn't necessarily just trying to kill everyone. I think Starfinder leaves more room for redemption than Pathfinder did. I appreciate that. Sometimes people change. Sometimes they have to.
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(Note: I've said nothing about the process of creating mindless undead. I do not think that sapient undead are inherently evil, but I do think the creation of mindless undead is pretty messed up. I'd say that's way more evil than just *being* undead, surely. Especially if it wasn't a choice. That doesn't mean all mindless undead are necessarily evil, just that their creators are probably not big on respect for other people's lives.)
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Regardless of necromancy, undeads should not be inherently evil. Most of them are, sure, just like most of drows or most of orcs are. But it should not be a mandatory trait, at least not in the core rulebook. Even in Golarion there are examples of good aligned ghosts.
And again Ghosts are the exception, not the standard. There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts.
Yes, there are examples of good, and neutral undeads in many lores and tropes. Brad Pitt character in Interview with a Vampire. Twilight. Angel in Buffy. The Crow. Baelnorn liches in Forgotten Realms. Undying Court in Eberron. Sorin Markov in MtG.
Which is why I said pathfinder, the rpg system should allow the trope, even if in Golarion, the setting they are evil, for setting reasons (Pharasma, whatecer).
Even in Pathfinder there are examples. A Shadowdancer's shadow is undead, but has the Shadowdancer's alignment. Blood of the night says that vampires can be non-Evil. Spirit Vessels were neutral, until they got ret-conned.
Regardless of necromancy, undeads should not be inherently evil. Most of them are, sure, just like most of drows or most of orcs are. But it should not be a mandatory trait, at least not in the core rulebook. Even in Golarion there are examples of good aligned ghosts.
And again Ghosts are the exception, not the standard. There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts.
Yes, there are examples of good, and neutral undeads in many lores and tropes. Brad Pitt character in Interview with a Vampire. Twilight. Angel in Buffy. The Crow. Baelnorn liches in Forgotten Realms. Undying Court in Eberron. Sorin Markov in MtG.
Which is why I said pathfinder, the rpg system should allow the trope, even if in Golarion, the setting they are evil, for setting reasons (Pharasma, whatecer).
Even in Pathfinder there are examples. A Shadowdancer's shadow is undead, but has the Shadowdancer's alignment. Blood of the night says that vampires can be non-Evil. Spirit Vessels were neutral, until they got ret-conned.
if you noticed I said Good aligned, specifically talking Pathfinder. The fact that Good aligned Undead exist in other media means absolutely nothing. Those other things aren't Pathfinder, they don't control what happens in Pathfinder.
Okay you have one exception with the Shadowdancer's Shadow, which isn't it your own shadow? Where does it say that in Blood of Night?
I have no idea what a Spirit Vessel is.
Found it,
A Good vampire is so rare to be nonexistent.
They then say like all things it is theoretically possible, but don't give any examples. Because there aren't any.
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Regardless of necromancy, undeads should not be inherently evil. Most of them are, sure, just like most of drows or most of orcs are. But it should not be a mandatory trait, at least not in the core rulebook. Even in Golarion there are examples of good aligned ghosts.
And again Ghosts are the exception, not the standard. There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts.
Yes, there are examples of good, and neutral undeads in many lores and tropes. Brad Pitt character in Interview with a Vampire. Twilight. Angel in Buffy. The Crow. Baelnorn liches in Forgotten Realms. Undying Court in Eberron. Sorin Markov in MtG.
Which is why I said pathfinder, the rpg system should allow the trope, even if in Golarion, the setting they are evil, for setting reasons (Pharasma, whatecer).
Even in Pathfinder there are examples. A Shadowdancer's shadow is undead, but has the Shadowdancer's alignment. Blood of the night says that vampires can be non-Evil. Spirit Vessels were neutral, until they got ret-conned.
if you noticed I said Good aligned, specifically talking Pathfinder. The fact that Good aligned Undead exist in other media means absolutely nothing. Those other things aren't Pathfinder, they don't control what happens in Pathfinder.
Okay you have one exception with the Shadowdancer's Shadow, which isn't it your own shadow? Where does it say that in Blood of Night?
I have no idea what a Spirit Vessel is.
There's also the Iroran Mummy, which is made using a self mummification ritual and does not make you evil.
I'm sure if we looked more we'd find other examples on non-evil undead in Pathfinder that aren't ghosts. You should take care about making broad sweeping statements like "There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts. " as it hurts your argument.
It'd be alot better to simply say that most Pathfinder undead are evil with a few exceptions, and based on Owen's comment up thread it seems that Starfinder is the same on that.
I don't really have an issue with it being non-evil. Isn't the premise that a lot of the gods are, kinda, gone? And aren't they the ones that decide good and evil on an objective level?
For how it messes with the soul, where does it say that and wouldn't that make dominate spells also evil?
Earlier, when someone said they are monsters kinda got to me. It reminded me in older editions of D&D where humans were listed in the monster manual. Everything is a "monster" until it isn't.
Gods don't determine alignment.
Dominate has nothing to do with the soul.
When I say they are monsters I don't mean "shows up in a Bestiary" I mean they do or prone to do monstrous things.
Regardless of necromancy, undeads should not be inherently evil. Most of them are, sure, just like most of drows or most of orcs are. But it should not be a mandatory trait, at least not in the core rulebook. Even in Golarion there are examples of good aligned ghosts.
And again Ghosts are the exception, not the standard. There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts.
Yes, there are examples of good, and neutral undeads in many lores and tropes. Brad Pitt character in Interview with a Vampire. Twilight. Angel in Buffy. The Crow. Baelnorn liches in Forgotten Realms. Undying Court in Eberron. Sorin Markov in MtG.
Which is why I said pathfinder, the rpg system should allow the trope, even if in Golarion, the setting they are evil, for setting reasons (Pharasma, whatecer).
Even in Pathfinder there are examples. A Shadowdancer's shadow is undead, but has the Shadowdancer's alignment. Blood of the night says that vampires can be non-Evil. Spirit Vessels were neutral, until they got ret-conned.
if you noticed I said Good aligned, specifically talking Pathfinder. The fact that Good aligned Undead exist in other media means absolutely nothing. Those other things aren't Pathfinder, they don't control what happens in Pathfinder.
Okay you have one exception with the Shadowdancer's Shadow, which isn't it your own shadow? Where does it say that in Blood of Night?
I have no idea what a Spirit Vessel is.
There's also the Iroran Mummy, which is made using a self mummification ritual and does not make you evil.
I'm sure if we looked more we'd find other examples on non-evil undead in Pathfinder that aren't ghosts. You should take care about making broad sweeping statements like "There's no examples of Good aligned Undead outside of Ghosts. " as it hurts your argument.
It'd be alot better to...
It's not "most", it's almost all to the point that Non-Evil are borderline nonexistent.
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Yes, it says that. One paragraph above that it says
Most vampires are evil, but like any race without the Evil subtype there is always a slim chance for redemption
Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of
So while GOOD vampires are extremely rare once in a generation exceptions (but possible), NON—EVIL vampires are not unheard of. You don't meed to be LG paladin to be non-evil. A simple Neutral ot Lawful Neutral or Chaotuc Neutral works just fine
And thst is in Golarion, mind you. The setting. I'm talking about Pathfinder, the RPG system. Outside of Golarion the trope is,even more common. Twilight character, whatwver he is called, Louis in Interview, Sylvannas Windrunner, The Crow, Sorin Markov, etc are non evil. Not all of them (if any) are good, but they are non evil.
The Undying Court and Baelnorn elven liches are even explicitly good.
Also where is the Iroran Mummy from, I can't seem to find it.
Yes, it says that. One paragraph above that it says
Most vampires are evil, but like any race without the Evil subtype there is always a slim chance for redemption
Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of
So while GOOD vampires are extremely rare once in a generation exceptions (but possible), NON—EVIL vampires are not unheard of. You don't meed to be LG paladin to be non-evil. A simple Neutral ot Lawful Neutral or Chaotuc Neutral works just fine
And thst is in Golarion, mind you. The setting. I'm talking about Pathfinder, the RPG system.
It says they are possible, but provides no examples of Good vampires. None exist. They can exist possibly, like all things, but there's no examples. There are possibly some Neutral vampires that have shifted to that from apathy like mentioned.
Blood of the Night is a Golarion based product.
Most and almost all are synonyms last time I checked....
I feel like we're splitting hairs at this point.
Most to me always implied to me that there were "some", which vagueness conveys a much bigger number than "almost none".
Iroran Mummy is from the Dragon's Demand module.
Thanks.
*reads*
Interesting. He's a unique creature that simply crumbles away if a follower of Irori is present, in that way he's more an event than a creature.
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It says they are possible, but provides no examples of Good vampires. None exist.
Almost none exist. They DO exist, which is why it says other vampires despise them. One in a generation, sure. But almost none, and none, are not the same.
They can exist possibly, like all things, but there's no examples.
nope, as the paragraph I quoted says, Evil subtyped races, like a Qlippoth, MUST be evil. A vampire isn't forced to that, because it lacks the Evil subtype.
There are possibly some Neutral vampires that have shifted to that from apathy like mentioned.,
not only they exist, people have heard about them. That is why they are not unheard of.
Blood of the Night is a Golarion based product.
my point, exactly. Even in Golarion, which is explicitly very much against non evil undeads because of Pharasma and stuff, there are non evil undeads. Outside of Golarion setting (ie: the core rulebook), it should be even more so, because other settings are more flexible in that regard. See Eberron's Undying Court, for example.
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Yes, it says that. One paragraph above that it says
Most vampires are evil, but like any race without the Evil subtype there is always a slim chance for redemption
Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of
So while GOOD vampires are extremely rare once in a generation exceptions (but possible), NON—EVIL vampires are not unheard of. You don't meed to be LG paladin to be non-evil. A simple Neutral ot Lawful Neutral or Chaotuc Neutral works just fine
And thst is in Golarion, mind you. The setting. I'm talking about Pathfinder, the RPG system.
It says they are possible, but provides no examples of Good vampires. None exist. They can exist possibly, like all things, but there's no examples. There are possibly some Neutral vampires that have shifted to that from apathy like mentioned.
Blood of the Night is a Golarion based product.
So you acknowledge that they created that design space space to play around in, but are now asserting that because they never took advantage of it, it doesn't exist? Did they release a compendium of all of Golarion's undead that I somehow missed? The clearly outline what can exist within their world; just because they didn't provide examples does not invalidate that.
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Iroran Mummy is from the Dragon's Demand module.Thanks.
*reads*
Interesting. He's a unique creature that simply crumbles away if a follower of Irori is present, in that way he's more an event than a creature.
I wouldn't say that. His background clearly illustrates that the process he used on himself isn't unique to him. Others could do the exact same thing if they knew of it. Also, I wouldn't call him an event rather than a creature just because he's willing to die if someone if his faith is there to right his wrongs.
So you acknowledge that they created that design space space to play around in, but are now asserting that because they never took advantage of it, it doesn't exist? Did they release a compendium of all of Golarion's undead that I somehow missed? The clearly outline what can exist within their world; just because they didn't provide examples does not invalidate that.Yes, it says that. One paragraph above that it says
Most vampires are evil, but like any race without the Evil subtype there is always a slim chance for redemption
Neutral vampires are rare, but not unheard of
So while GOOD vampires are extremely rare once in a generation exceptions (but possible), NON—EVIL vampires are not unheard of. You don't meed to be LG paladin to be non-evil. A simple Neutral ot Lawful Neutral or Chaotuc Neutral works just fine
And thst is in Golarion, mind you. The setting. I'm talking about Pathfinder, the RPG system.
It says they are possible, but provides no examples of Good vampires. None exist. They can exist possibly, like all things, but there's no examples. There are possibly some Neutral vampires that have shifted to that from apathy like mentioned.
Blood of the Night is a Golarion based product.
In a sense, they left a possible plot hook or hook for a PC, but have never shown or hinted at a Good aligned vampire anywhere else. So until someone makes one, they don't exist. If one ever does come around it would probably be the only one.
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While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.
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While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.