I wouldn't say that. His background clearly illustrates that the process he used on himself isn't unique to him. Others could do the exact same thing if they knew of it. Also, I wouldn't call him an event rather than a creature just because he's willing to die if someone if his faith is there to right his wrongs.Iroran Mummy is from the Dragon's Demand module.Thanks.
*reads*
Interesting. He's a unique creature that simply crumbles away if a follower of Irori is present, in that way he's more an event than a creature.
Possibly if others knew about it and underwent yes. And he doesn't die as kinda disintegrate cause he can rest now.
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While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.** spoiler omitted **
It does show that rules are not absolutes.
It says they are possible, but provides no examples of Good vampires. None exist.Almost none exist. They DO exist, which is why it says other vampires despise them. One in a generation, sure. But almost none, and none, are not the same.
They can exist possibly, like all things, but there's no examples.nope, as the paragraph I quoted says, Evil subtyped races, like a Qlippoth, MUST be evil. A vampire isn't forced to that, because it lacks the Evil subtype.
There are possibly some Neutral vampires that have shifted to that from apathy like mentioned.,not only they exist, people have heard about them. That is why they are not unheard of.
Blood of the Night is a Golarion based product.my point, exactly. Even in Golarion, which is explicitly very much against non evil undeads because of Pharasma and stuff, there are non evil undeads. Outside of Golarion setting (ie: the core rulebook), it should be even more so, because other settings are more flexible in that regard. See Eberron's Undying Court, for example.
Other settings do not dictate what Golarion does, it doesn't matter what any other setting does since anything and everything can be done in other media.
Also I'm side-eyeing that section of BotN now, since it starts with "Most vampires are evil, but like any race"
Uhhh, Vampires aren't a Race, they're an Undead Template...
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In a sense, they left a possible plot hook or hook for a PC, but have never shown or hinted at a Good aligned vampire anywhere else. So until someone makes one, they don't exist. If one ever does come around it would probably be the only one.
If you have almost none brain tumors, you are in a very bad position. If you have none, you are healthy.
There ARE good vampires. Currently. Other vampires despise them. Now. Not «would» despise them if they ever become a thing. They despise them, now, because they are a rhing, now.
Almost none is not the same than none. And more importantly, that is about good vampires. I'm talking about non evil ones. , which also includes neutral
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Anyway, specific non-evil undead example found (not counting ghosts), plus we've got text mentioning that non-evil vampires exist, even if they don't feature in the published APs or scenarios.
It does show that rules are not absolutes.While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.** spoiler omitted **
No, but they are so rare that they may as well be. You have her, the one in the Redemption Engine, and that's it to my knowledge? Out of the immeasurable numbers of fiends in the multiverse.
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Other settings do not dictate what Golarion does, it doesn't matter what any other setting does since anything and everything can be done in other media.
The point is moot since the setting originating this discussion doesn't even have that planet.
What happens in some other setting doesn't dictate what happens in starfinder.
Actually the full text implies they don't exist other than as playe rcharcters.In a sense, they left a possible plot hook or hook for a PC, but have never shown or hinted at a Good aligned vampire anywhere else. So until someone makes one, they don't exist. If one ever does come around it would probably be the only one.If you have almost none brain tumors, you are in a very bad position. If you have none, you are healthy.
There ARE good vampires. Currently. Other vampires despise them. Now. Not «would» despise them if they ever become a thing. They despise them, now, because they are a rhing, now.
Almost none is not the same than none. And more importantly, that is about good vampires. I'm talking about non evil ones. , which also includes neutral
A good vampire is so rare as to be almost nonexistent. Its very nature draws it to feast on living intelligent creatures. The impossibly rare good vampire is trusted by no one and persecuted by all-mortal and vampire alike. Other vampires despise it out of jealousy or fear. No mortal will ever be convinced of its goodness, always sleeping behind locked chamber doors and with holy symbols in hand. Both within an adventuring party and out in the world, playing a good vampire character is fraught with trials.
The way everything is phrased it's seen almost mythical.
Other settings do not dictate what Golarion does, it doesn't matter what any other setting does since anything and everything can be done in other media.The point is moot since the setting originating this discussion doesn't even have that planet.
What happens in some other setting doesn't dictate what happens in starfinder.
Unless it shares the same universe with the setting.
Other settings do not dictate what Golarion does, it doesn't matter what any other setting does since anything and everything can be done in other media.
but, as ypu would know by now if you read me, I'm arguing that PF, the rulebook should allow them, even.if Golarion, the setting does not. Because the trope is pretty common. Is so common, that you find examples even in Golarion itself.
Also I'm side-eyeing that section of BotN now, since it starts with "Most vampires are evil, but like any race"
Uhhh, Vampires aren't a Race, they're an Undead Template...
so? It is an undead template without the Evil Subtype. And just like the races without the Evil subtype, can be non evil
While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.
I'm aware, but the point stands. An [Evil] creature is always evil. If ot is no longer evil, it is no longer [Evil]. Same goes for a fallen angel, for example. An Angel is good, because he is [Good]. A fallen angel, like Lucifer, is evil, but he is also [Evil]
Same thing is not true for a vampire. HE Can stop being evil, and still be undead.
Other settings do not dictate what Golarion does, it doesn't matter what any other setting does since anything and everything can be done in other media.but, as ypu would know by now if you read me, I'm arguing that PF, the rulebook should allow them, even.if Golarion, the setting does not. Because the trope is pretty common. Is so common, that
You find examples even in Golarion itself.so? It is an undead template without the Evil Subtype. And just like the races without the Evil subtype, can be non evilAlso I'm side-eyeing that section of BotN now, since it starts with "Most vampires are evil, but like any race"
Uhhh, Vampires aren't a Race, they're an Undead Template...
I don't see that as a good justification, sorry.
And actually.
Alignment: any Evil
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No, but they are so rare that they may as well be. You have her, the one in the Redemption Engine, and that's it to my knowledge? Out of the immeasurable numbers of fiends in the multiverse.It does show that rules are not absolutes.While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.** spoiler omitted **
The planes are immesurable, even 0.000001% of infinity is still infinite. And while the number of fiends are immesurable, the number of books are measurable, there's only so many fiends Paizo can portray in their APs, and putting too many good fiends in makes it an overused and tired trope.
Orcs and Drow can be good too and aren't always evil, but you don't see virtually any in published aventures either. That's because if a substantial amount of drow NPCs were all Drizzt's it would make for poor writing.
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The way everything is phrased it's seen almost mythical.
Yes, that is a good comparison. They are probably as rare as mythical characters.
Jatembe exists, tho. Or Baba Yaga. Or Shorshen. Or Tar Baphon
You don't find one of them in every street. They are mythical figures. Almost none can be found. But they exist.
Oh boy an alignment argument thread. I love these.
Bringing this up since I've yet to see it mentioned-
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, especially since I can't find a concrete source, but the creation of undead in the Pathfinder base setting (note: not necessarily the game's system, just in that particular setting) is Evil not due to morality, but due to it's effects on the grander cosmos.
In Pathfinder, certain actions are black and white in terms of balance within the universe - doing amoral actions will most certainly push you more towards evil, but if you're doing the wrong things for the right reasons, that counts, too. Channeling negative energy, for instance, is going to have an effect on your very soul, because you are opening up yourself to a plane that is literally evil. The same can be said of channeling the forces of Hell and the Abyss. These aren't evil because some people don't like it - they're evil because Good and Evil are cosmically aligned forces. As Owen mentioned in this very thread, Cheliax is a LE nation with state-mandated devil worship, and yet the people there get by "fine". It is an objectively evil place, but it is morally ambiguous.
In Pathfinder, morality =/= alignment. They are linked, but not directly so. Alignment is strictly black and white. Morality less so.
The creation of undead requires channeling negative energy (which is bad), and also requires tampering with an aspect of the soul of the deceased, usually currently in the boneyard. If you tamper with a soul too much, Pharasma can't properly judge it, and thus Groteus will finally awaken from his place in the Boneyard and destroy the universe. This is why Pharasma hates undead. Animate Dead and similar spells are thus evil because you have a chance to cause a universal apocalypse every time you cast the spell, not because undead are icky. This is not a belief system of Golarion - these are the rules of the setting (in fact, many people of Golarion may not even be aware of this). If this has changed in Starfinder, that means that something else has fundamentally changed - either creating undead no longer does this, or there is a new method to creating undead that does not risk this.
Many undead such as spirits (ghosts and such) seem to come back to the material plane without the help of a necromancer - their spirit is in a state of unrest and has yet to reach the Boneyard proper. Vampires and other intelligent undead are saturated with negative energy - they may potentially still be good because they are intelligent and can thus act however they wish, but it will be harder for them to be good and do good because of this taint.
I may be wrong on a few of the details here, but this is how I've understood undead in Pathfinder's setting to work.
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While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.I'm aware, but the point stands. An [Evil] creature is always evil. If ot is no longer evil, it is no longer [Evil]. Same goes for a fallen angel, for example. An Angel is good, because he is [Good]. A fallen angel, like Lucifer, is evil, but he is also [Evil]
Same thing is not true for a vampire. HE Can stop being evil, and still be undead.
Actually, even after shifting alignment to neutral, she still had the Evil subtype.
The way everything is phrased it's seen almost mythical.
Yes, that is a good comparison. They are probably as rare as mythical characters.
Jatembe exists, tho. Or Baba Yaga. Or Shorshen. Or Tar Baphon
You don't find one of them in every street. They are mythical figures. Almost none can be found. But they exist.
Yes, they do, a handful out of billions. Not one in every city or one in every country through. One in a billion.
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Yeah, alignment isn't a subjective thing. I suspect that in Starfinder, something has changed about the undead creation process that allows non-evil undead and doesn't shift the caster towards evil.
Like we had with the juju oracle back before errata!
Woo~!
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"Can someone find an example of a chaotic evil pig farmer? Because even though they can exist, I haven't seen any examples in the lore, so they don't exist."
I know that isn't one-to-one, but that's seriously how this argument comes across. Starfinder is much more about possibility than Pathfinder was. Science Fiction is hopeful. Science fantasy, just as much. Even the Swarm had dissent, man.
"Can someone find an example of a chaotic evil pig farmer? Because even though they can exist, I haven't seen any examples in the lore, so they don't exist."
I know that isn't one-to-one, but that's seriously how this argument comes across. Starfinder is much more about possibility than Pathfinder was. Science Fiction is hopeful. Science fantasy, just as much. Even the Swarm had dissent, man.
Pig Farmers don't have a normal alignment restriction though.
And my saying how absolutely rare they are apply to Pathfinder as the conversation drifted to it, in Starfinder I'm not saying that, I simply want to know what happened to allow it.
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Crossing over from the Product Discussion:
They abide by the Pact Worlds' list of universal rights for sentient creatures. So, I still don't see how they qualify as monstrous.How they came to be, what they did to the Twins, the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.
So,
How they came to be
A moment of desperation that is neither explicitly evil, nor monstrous.
what they did to the Twins
Where in the CRB is it mentioned that Eox caused the "unknown catastrophe" that destroyed the Twins?
the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.
What happens between thousands of consenting adults is none of our business to judge. It is legal, and respects the universal rights of sentient creatures.
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Yes, they do, a handful out of billions. Not one in every city or one in every country through. One in a billion.The way everything is phrased it's seen almost mythical.
Yes, that is a good comparison. They are probably as rare as mythical characters.
Jatembe exists, tho. Or Baba Yaga. Or Shorshen. Or Tar Baphon
You don't find one of them in every street. They are mythical figures. Almost none can be found. But they exist.
I named 4 mythical wizards, and I can give you more. I somehow doubt there are 4+ billions of wizards in Golarion, but we are running in circles here.
Yes, there is not one good vampire in every city. Nobody has,said that. We have just countered your previous absolute statement that, other than Ghosts, every single undead in Golarion is evil. Not true. Shadowdancers' shadows can have none evil alignments. Vampires can too, both the mythical-like good vampire, and the heard of neutral vampire.
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Like the changes in core gods, core races, and relaxation of alignment mechanics generally, I think the change to undead is all to the good for having a fresh new setting. I'm glad the Starfinder team had the freedom to experiment and shake things up.
Crossing over from the Product Discussion:
They abide by the Pact Worlds' list of universal rights for sentient creatures. So, I still don't see how they qualify as monstrous.How they came to be, what they did to the Twins, the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.So,
How they came to beA moment of desperation that is neither explicitly evil, nor monstrous.
what they did to the TwinsWhere in the CRB is it mentioned that Eox caused the "unknown catastrophe" that destroyed the Twins?
the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.What happens between thousands of consenting adults is none of our business to judge. It is legal, and respects the universal rights of sentient creatures.
That wasn't desperation that was arrogance, they could have fled.
It's either in Eox' section or Distant Worlds.
That's assuming the people who sign there life away are capable of saying no or picking another option. Consent given under duress is not consent.
Yes, they do, a handful out of billions. Not one in every city or one in every country through. One in a billion.The way everything is phrased it's seen almost mythical.
Yes, that is a good comparison. They are probably as rare as mythical characters.
Jatembe exists, tho. Or Baba Yaga. Or Shorshen. Or Tar Baphon
You don't find one of them in every street. They are mythical figures. Almost none can be found. But they exist.
I named 4 mythical wizards, and I can give you more. I somehow doubt there are 4+ billions of wizards in Golarion, but we are running in circles here.
Yes, there is not one good vampire in every city. Nobody has,said that. We have just countered your previous absolute statement that, other than Ghosts, every single undead in Golarion is evil. Not true. Shadowdancers' shadows can have none evil alignments. Vampires can too, both the mythical-like good vampire, and the heard of neutral vampire.
They're so few as to be nonexistent, which means the statement of all Undead are Evil barring a few specific examples isn't false.
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"Can someone find an example of a chaotic evil pig farmer? Because even though they can exist, I haven't seen any examples in the lore, so they don't exist."
I know that isn't one-to-one, but that's seriously how this argument comes across. Starfinder is much more about possibility than Pathfinder was. Science Fiction is hopeful. Science fantasy, just as much. Even the Swarm had dissent, man.
Pig Farmers don't have a normal alignment restriction though.
And my saying how absolutely rare they are apply to Pathfinder as the conversation drifted to it, in Starfinder I'm not saying that, I simply want to know what happened to allow it.
While existing undead types do have alignment restrictions, Eoxians do not appear to be these existing undead types, even Necrovites are a new undead type instead of just being liches.
Average Eoxians are most likely not powerful undead like liches or mummies, but are neither mindless like skeletons or zombies. They most likely are their own, intelligent, not very powerful undead type with no alignment restriction. They are most likely the elebrians someone mentioned in a post on the Incident at Absalom Station thread.
Crossing over from the Product Discussion:
They abide by the Pact Worlds' list of universal rights for sentient creatures. So, I still don't see how they qualify as monstrous.How they came to be, what they did to the Twins, the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.So,
How they came to beA moment of desperation that is neither explicitly evil, nor monstrous.
what they did to the TwinsWhere in the CRB is it mentioned that Eox caused the "unknown catastrophe" that destroyed the Twins?
the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.What happens between thousands of consenting adults is none of our business to judge. It is legal, and respects the universal rights of sentient creatures.That wasn't desperation that was arrogance, they could have fled.
It's either in Eox' section or Distant Worlds.
That's assuming the people who sign there life away are capable of saying no or picking another option. Consent given under duress is not consent.
Yep, p.450 of the Starfinder Core Rulebook, the opening of the Eox section.
"Can someone find an example of a chaotic evil pig farmer? Because even though they can exist, I haven't seen any examples in the lore, so they don't exist."
I know that isn't one-to-one, but that's seriously how this argument comes across. Starfinder is much more about possibility than Pathfinder was. Science Fiction is hopeful. Science fantasy, just as much. Even the Swarm had dissent, man.
Pig Farmers don't have a normal alignment restriction though.
And my saying how absolutely rare they are apply to Pathfinder as the conversation drifted to it, in Starfinder I'm not saying that, I simply want to know what happened to allow it.
While existing undead types do have alignment restrictions, Eoxians do not appear to be these existing undead types, even Necrovites are a new undead type instead of just being liches.
Average Eoxians are most likely not powerful undead like liches or mummies, but are neither mindless like skeletons or zombies. They most likely are their own, intelligent, not very powerful undead type with no alignment restriction. They are most likely the elebrians someone mentioned in a post on the Incident at Absalom Station thread.
Undead templates in Pathfinder have Alignment restrictions, but I will point out Both of the named Elebrians are Evil and definitely not weak. Ambassador Nor is CR 13.
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Science Fiction is hopeful.
I see you haven't looked into any Warhammer 40k.
While Evil subtype creatures start out evil, they can change alignment, and their subtypes do change when they become good. This is one of the main plots in Wrath of the Righteous.** spoiler omitted **
Also in Serpent Skull we have an example of
... so we know it can happen in different directions as well - no divine interference needed.
Also, the Iroran mummy originated in the depths of the Iade Regent AP where it explicitly calls them out as a rare but known ritual that some enlightened Iroran masters go through.
Also, there's a lawful good vampire in Carrion Crown.
(It's noted that this is temporary, but the justifications for why are weak at best.)
Spirit vessels was a juju mystery revelation that got retconned into a different revelation entirely and it's super irritating and sucks. Also, the new one is (bafflingly) PFS approved, which seems kind of absurd because you aren't supposed to play a villain, but now undead are evil again and your totally taking a mystery with a lot of emphasis on undead creation. But anyway...
Oh, also: helms of opposite alignment, or other cursed items are a thing.
Good gosh. This is going nowhere, not even quickly.
Why still argue about this when you were given the reason many times over? It is different than Pathfinder.
"..but I'm asking for an in-game reason.."
Which was responded with several in-game reasons.
"..but...dieties don't dictate alignment!.." (Which by the way is a out-of-game reason)
You are arguing out of game reasoning against in game reasoning.
I think the plain of simple of it that is that it just is.
We have a bunch of in-game theories, but not the actual reason.
I don't get the second part of your statement. Others were claiming the Deities control what Alignmennt is, but they don't.
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@Tacticslion, do you mean Halloran the fallen Paladin? He's LE when he first appears.
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Good gosh. This is going nowhere, not even quickly.
Why still argue about this when you were given the reason many times over? It is different than Pathfinder.
"..but I'm asking for an in-game reason.."
Which was responded with several in-game reasons.
"..but...dieties don't dictate alignment!.." (Which by the way is a out-of-game reason)
You are arguing out of game reasoning against in game reasoning.
I think the plain of simple of it that is that it just is.
We have a bunch of in-game theories, but not the actual reason.
It's a setting. Theories are pretty much the limit, unless you're creating the design bible for the writers.
What it is coming down to is you're rejecting everything with 'Nuh-uh, that's not my preference.' It might be time to move on and let the discussion about non-evil undead and the story possibilities that opens up happen without interruption.
Science Fiction is hopeful.I see you haven't looked into any Warhammer 40k.
May I also suggest the Southern Reach (soon to be a movie!) and Last Policeman trilogies?
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Yep, p.450 of the Starfinder Core Rulebook, the opening of the Eox section.Crossing over from the Product Discussion:
They abide by the Pact Worlds' list of universal rights for sentient creatures. So, I still don't see how they qualify as monstrous.How they came to be, what they did to the Twins, the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.So,
How they came to beA moment of desperation that is neither explicitly evil, nor monstrous.
what they did to the TwinsWhere in the CRB is it mentioned that Eox caused the "unknown catastrophe" that destroyed the Twins?
the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.What happens between thousands of consenting adults is none of our business to judge. It is legal, and respects the universal rights of sentient creatures.That wasn't desperation that was arrogance, they could have fled.
It's either in Eox' section or Distant Worlds.
That's assuming the people who sign there life away are capable of saying no or picking another option. Consent given under duress is not consent.
"According to popular legend,"
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]They're so few as to be nonexistent, which means the statement of all Undead are Evil barring a few specific examples isn't false.
You keep saying that Good undeads are very scarce in Golarion while my point is about non evil ones as a trope that Pathfinder should take in account.
And even if we talk about Golarion, instead of about Pathfinder as a neutral rule system, the vampire's book doesn't say non evil vampires are so few as to be nearly nonexistant (almost none, actually). It says good vampires are.
Good =/= non evil.
Good gosh. This is going nowhere, not even quickly.
Why still argue about this when you were given the reason many times over? It is different than Pathfinder.
"..but I'm asking for an in-game reason.."
Which was responded with several in-game reasons.
"..but...dieties don't dictate alignment!.." (Which by the way is a out-of-game reason)
You are arguing out of game reasoning against in game reasoning.
I think the plain of simple of it that is that it just is.
We have a bunch of in-game theories, but not the actual reason.
It's a setting. Theories are pretty much the limit, unless you're creating the design bible for the writers.
What it is coming down to is you're rejecting everything with 'Nuh-uh, that's not my preference.' It might be time to move on and let the discussion about non-evil undead and the story possibilities that opens up happen without interruption.
Huh?
The only thing I've been rejecting is the claim that the Gods control the alignments. The actual theories about why things are changed are interesting (KoA's comment about Hselyn doing it is still my favourite) but I'd still like the official reason for the change, which the Devs said there is one.
"According to popular legend,"Yep, p.450 of the Starfinder Core Rulebook, the opening of the Eox section.Crossing over from the Product Discussion:
They abide by the Pact Worlds' list of universal rights for sentient creatures. So, I still don't see how they qualify as monstrous.How they came to be, what they did to the Twins, the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.So,
How they came to beA moment of desperation that is neither explicitly evil, nor monstrous.
what they did to the TwinsWhere in the CRB is it mentioned that Eox caused the "unknown catastrophe" that destroyed the Twins?
the torture games they broadcast throughout the Pact worlds.What happens between thousands of consenting adults is none of our business to judge. It is legal, and respects the universal rights of sentient creatures.That wasn't desperation that was arrogance, they could have fled.
It's either in Eox' section or Distant Worlds.
That's assuming the people who sign there life away are capable of saying no or picking another option. Consent given under duress is not consent.
While the actual event is more nuanced I didn't take that to mean it's outright false.
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I feel like this whole thing is basically like asking 'what happened to Golarion?' or 'What happened to Aroden?' because we'll probably never know, so worrying about it is pretty pointless.
]They're so few as to be nonexistent, which means the statement of all Undead are Evil barring a few specific examples isn't false.You keep saying that Good undeads are very scarce in Golarion while my point is about non evil ones as a trope that Pathfinder should take in account.
And even if we talk about Golarion, instead of about Pathfinder as a neutral rule system, the vampire's book doesn't say non evil vampires are so few as to be nearly nonexistant (almost none, actually). It says good vampires are.
Good =/= non evil.
Tropes can be overused, and again, other media does not dictate what Golarion should do.
I don't know what to make of BotN anymore, since it considers Vampire a race rather than a template.
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I feel like this whole thing is basically like asking 'what happened to Golarion?' or 'What happened to Aroden?' because we'll probably never know, so worrying about it is pretty pointless.
I hope not, but I can understand if they decide to confine the answer to the Gap :(
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Undead templates in Pathfinder have Alignment restrictions, but I will point out Both of the named Elebrians are Evil and definitely not weak. Ambassador Nor is CR 13."Can someone find an example of a chaotic evil pig farmer? Because even though they can exist, I haven't seen any examples in the lore, so they don't exist."
I know that isn't one-to-one, but that's seriously how this argument comes across. Starfinder is much more about possibility than Pathfinder was. Science Fiction is hopeful. Science fantasy, just as much. Even the Swarm had dissent, man.
Pig Farmers don't have a normal alignment restriction though.
And my saying how absolutely rare they are apply to Pathfinder as the conversation drifted to it, in Starfinder I'm not saying that, I simply want to know what happened to allow it.
While existing undead types do have alignment restrictions, Eoxians do not appear to be these existing undead types, even Necrovites are a new undead type instead of just being liches.
Average Eoxians are most likely not powerful undead like liches or mummies, but are neither mindless like skeletons or zombies. They most likely are their own, intelligent, not very powerful undead type with no alignment restriction. They are most likely the elebrians someone mentioned in a post on the Incident at Absalom Station thread.
But do undead templates in Starfinder have alignment restrictions?
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I feel like this whole thing is basically like asking 'what happened to Golarion?' or 'What happened to Aroden?' because we'll probably never know, so worrying about it is pretty pointless.I hope not, but I can understand if they decide to confine the answer to the Gap :(
They confirmed this in the AMA.
we will most likely (almost certainly never) reveal what happened to Golarion. It's one of the core mysteries of the setting, and it also keeps anything official in Pathfinder or Starfinder from affecting the history of the other.
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I feel like this whole thing is basically like asking 'what happened to Golarion?' or 'What happened to Aroden?' because we'll probably never know, so worrying about it is pretty pointless.I hope not, but I can understand if they decide to confine the answer to the Gap :(They confirmed this in the AMA.
we will most likely (almost certainly never) reveal what happened to Golarion. It's one of the core mysteries of the setting, and it also keeps anything official in Pathfinder or Starfinder from affecting the history of the other.
Um, I was referring to "why are Undead able to be any alignment more freely", not "what happened to Golarion".
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Science Fiction is hopeful.I see you haven't looked into any Warhammer 40k.
More into Eclipse Phase. Just because everyone dies, doesn't mean it isn't hopeful. /spacestuff
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But do undead templates in Starfinder have alignment restrictions?Undead templates in Pathfinder have Alignment restrictions, but I will point out Both of the named Elebrians are Evil and definitely not weak. Ambassador Nor is CR 13."Can someone find an example of a chaotic evil pig farmer? Because even though they can exist, I haven't seen any examples in the lore, so they don't exist."
I know that isn't one-to-one, but that's seriously how this argument comes across. Starfinder is much more about possibility than Pathfinder was. Science Fiction is hopeful. Science fantasy, just as much. Even the Swarm had dissent, man.
Pig Farmers don't have a normal alignment restriction though.
And my saying how absolutely rare they are apply to Pathfinder as the conversation drifted to it, in Starfinder I'm not saying that, I simply want to know what happened to allow it.
While existing undead types do have alignment restrictions, Eoxians do not appear to be these existing undead types, even Necrovites are a new undead type instead of just being liches.
Average Eoxians are most likely not powerful undead like liches or mummies, but are neither mindless like skeletons or zombies. They most likely are their own, intelligent, not very powerful undead type with no alignment restriction. They are most likely the elebrians someone mentioned in a post on the Incident at Absalom Station thread.
We'll have to wait for Alien Archive, and even then they'll be grafts, not templates as we know them.
Which kinda sucks as you could still apply templates to players if you really wanted to, but I don't think grafts will work.
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I still haven't seen any suggestion that Undead are able to be any alignment more freely. In fact, Owen said the opposite in this very thread.
In Pathfinder most undead were evil, but a few were not. We've stated the same is likely true in Starfinder, though we have yet to publish nearly as many undead stat blocks, so there's no canon of the ratio yet.
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Owen was confirming that it is possible for undead to be non-evil.
If you want Eox's undead population to be 100% all-bad, all the time... cool, go for it, there's certainly plenty of support for that. But if you want to play a more ambiguous game where undead Eoxians aren't necessarily evil, that's where I'm interested in heading.
PCs are expected to encounter at least some non-Evil undead over the course of the AP.
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The Great Beyond actually has mention of a Chaotic Neutral Lich living on the negative energy plane, by name of Xegirius Malikar, although that was a PF Chronicles book, and may not still be canon?.