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Because I suppose you realize how unbalanced it would be if multiweapon fighting just gave you 6x the regular damage, don't you?NO ONE IS GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING TOO POWERFUL!
You are totally and absolutelly wrong.
The guy who built a character with a single gun and see how you do 6x his damage WILL complain.
Because I suppose you realize how unbalanced it would be if multiweapon fighting just gave you 6x the regular damage, don't you?NO ONE IS GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING TOO POWERFUL!
You are totally and absolutelly wrong.
The guy who built a character with a single gun and see how you do 6x his damage WILL complain.
Provide I can hit him 6 times.
Dude, you don't get it. ATM, I do NOT have such an option when I clearly should.
"provide I can hit him 6 times"
The other dude can miss his shot too. If he misses, he does no damage. You can miss your first shot and still hit 1-5 times, doing infinite times more damage that round.
On average, you are doing 6 times as much damage as someone with a pistol, or 3 times as much damage as someone with an equivalent rifle.
"when I clearly should".
Said who?
"You don't get it".
I get it. You want your character to be significantly more powerful than it is. There are balance concerns however than the devs have to think about. Having characters with 8 arms available is something that has to be considered. That's why there is no option for multiweapon attack. Because it'd be broken.
"when I clearly should".
Said who?
Says the fact that TWF as been around since D&D 3E, that would be 18 years ago.
"You don't get it".
I get it. You want your character to be significantly more powerful than it is. There are balance concerns however than the devs have to think about. Having characters with 8 arms available is something that has to be considered. That's why there is no option for multiweapon attack. Because it'd be broken.
Ok, what's the point of having more than 2 arms if you can't even use them in battle? Where's the appeal?
1) This isn't D&D 3e.
2) You're right, you probably shouldn't play a character with more than 2 arms if that's your only reason to do so.
2) You're right, you probably shouldn't play a character with more than 2 arms if that's your only reason to do so.
Even for races with 2 arms, there have been nerfing options for TWF:
- A solarian cannot materialize 2 solar weapons, not even one for each type.- You cannot use "double weapons", like staves, for extra attacks.
- You cannot move AND shoot twice with 2 pistols.
I fail to understand what were the original complaints for TWF. You guys talk about damage output, but Pathfinder wasn't any better, with damage rolls having a truckton of modifiers. Then there were complaints about iterative attacks taking "too long" during play sessions, and yet the operative, solarian and soldier have them, and that's not including spells with multiple attack rolls. If iterative attacks were problematic even back in D&D 3E, then... why didn't Pathfinder removed them when it first started? Surely it was only the vocal minority who had this issue.
By doing in the Legacy chapter, even class features that mimicked TWF, like the monk's flurry of blows got completely reworked.
- Unarmed damage should be equal to an one-handed operative weapon of equal level (why not give them the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, which scales in Starfinder, that's beyond me.)
- Unarmed damage deals an extra damage based on the operative's trick attack.
- Nowhere it is found that the monk receive extra attacks similar to the operative (being the class they refer too a lot).
Oddly enough, they didn't talk about the ranger's combat styles.
Again, they could balance it so there's a stacking penalty on attack roll or even extra ammo spent. Yeah, I saw the rule when they released a feat to use a wand for iterative attacks. However, the fact that they removed it completely is dumb. Ok fine, iterative attacks are gone, but TWF wasn't much about iterative attacks as it was to use multiple weapons.
You guys say that it would be unbalanced for a kasatha player to shoot 4 times in a single round... Please tell that to the multitude of monsters with 1) multiattack and 2) their own "rules" to use multiple weapons at once "because they can".
"when I clearly should".
Said who?Says the fact that TWF as been around since D&D 3E, that would be 18 years ago.
So was the Paladin class, Maze Spell and Knowledge: Planes skill. But alas, this is a different game.
You guys say that it would be unbalanced for a kasatha player to shoot 4 times in a single round... Please tell that to the multitude of monsters with 1) multiattack and 2) their own "rules" to use multiple weapons at once "because they can".
Player options are balanced vs other player options, not vs monster abilities. Just because monsters can have the Incorporeal ability doesn't mean Operatives should be able to get it and take half damage from magic attacks, none from non-magic attacks, be inmune to crits, able to cross solid items, and make no sound if they choose not to.
You guys say that it would be unbalanced for a kasatha player to shoot 4 times in a single round... Please tell that to the multitude of monsters with 1) multiattack and 2) their own "rules" to use multiple weapons at once "because they can".Player options are balanced vs other player options, not vs monster abilities. Just because monsters can have the Incorporeal ability doesn't mean Operatives should be able to get it and take half damage from magic attacks, none from non-magic attacks, be inmune to crits, able to cross solid items, and make no sound if they choose not to.
Ok, there is something I'm clearly missing...
What was even wrong with TWF back in Pathfinder to warrant its complete removal in Starfinder?
Nothing wrong with TWF in Pathfinder. I'm not advocating about removing TWF from pathfinder.
Starfinder, however, has readily available options to create characters with up to 8 arms, and have cheap to get one handed ranged weapons with big ammo count. So it's a pretty much different issue. "Sometimes I can do an extra attack with my melee weapon, if I haven't moved that round" cann't be the same than "I full attack every single round ever with +7 extra shots per round".
Nothing wrong with TWF in Pathfinder. I'm not advocating about removing TWF from pathfinder.
Starfinder, however, has readily available options to create characters with up to 8 arms, and have cheap to get one handed ranged weapons with big ammo count. So it's a pretty much different issue. "Sometimes I can do an extra attack with my melee weapon, if I haven't moved that round" cann't be the same than "I full attack every single round ever with +7 extra shots per round".
So in the end, the high damage input of the weapons balanced the low attack rate?
You're missing the whole "Starfinder is not Pathfinder" thing. The issue with Iterative attacks is that everyone got them and the worsening AB slowed things down. So in Starfinder (which is NOT Pathfinder), they made it so every attack roll is consistent in modifiers. You'll attack at +20 3 or 4 times at most instead of +27/22/17/12, and +25/20/15 for an off-hand weapon or something.
So in the end, the high damage input of the weapons balanced the low attack rate?Nothing wrong with TWF in Pathfinder. I'm not advocating about removing TWF from pathfinder.
Starfinder, however, has readily available options to create characters with up to 8 arms, and have cheap to get one handed ranged weapons with big ammo count. So it's a pretty much different issue. "Sometimes I can do an extra attack with my melee weapon, if I haven't moved that round" cann't be the same than "I full attack every single round ever with +7 extra shots per round".
Nope. The fact that TWF can only be used in full attack mode is what balanced TWF. You cannot full-attack on the move, and when you could (pounce), things went off-balance quickly. There is no easy way to full attack constantly with two weapons in PF, and spending half your time moving from guy to guy reduce the effectiveness of TWF by a lot.
In Starfinder, you could TWF with ranged weapons. Which means you can full attack all the time. It's a BIG difference in damage output if you can full attack with TWF in 2 of 4 rounds, or in 4 of 4 rounds.
Not to mention that in PF you have 2 hands. In SF you have up to eight.
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Because I suppose you realize how unbalanced it would be if multiweapon fighting just gave you 6x the regular damage, don't you?NO ONE IS GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING TOO POWERFUL!
If one PC is more powerful than their party members, then yes, someone is going to complain.
Where did a lot of guys get the dumb idea that players HATE being powerful? Have you seen a plyer voluntarily handicapping himself because he thought he was too strong? No!
Unless you are playing by yourself, you have to make sure that nobody is too unbalanced.
Unbalanced for the GM? If he knows about a player's race, surely that he thought a little bit ahead for these.
The GM shouldn't need to compensate for one player being redonkulus. The rules should work as written. Currently, they do. You seem to want them to not work as written. Again, if you're speaking as a player who wants to be super powerful, well, you're not taking into account the rest of your party who doesn't want to be overshadowed. The GM needs to account for that; you don't. Accept that there is a reason that is beyond your scope.
Unbalanced for the rules? There's already a penalty for using more than one attack per round, there isn't going to be worth it if you end up with -12 on your attack roll, just so you can shoot 6 times. Back in Pathfinder, I managed to have the Ninja throw 10 shurikens... at an absurd penalty that none would likely hit the target.
What's the point of having a mechanic that is nearly worthless due to penalties?
Starfinder is an attempt to FIX problems like that. You have fewer attacks, but they have higher value because you're using level-scaled weapons.
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Where did a lot of guys get the dumb idea that players HATE being powerful? Have you seen a plyer voluntarily handicapping himself because he thought he was too strong? No!
(Waves Hand). Yup. Love playing sub-optimum characters. One example: Played a Viking Fighter in a Reign of Winter game that took the physical penalties of Middle Age to simulate the physical wear and tear on his body. In Starfinder I'm running a Vesk Mechanic - hardly the best optimal option for the class, but she's been fun to run.
Do I think a power-gamer would approach the same characters in the same way - nope, but don't think there aren't players who will capstone or limit their concepts just for the roleplay challenge (vs the rollplay deficit).
Getting back to your gripe re: TWF
I'm hoping to run a Kasatha in an AP down the line, way I see it their 4 arms means they can carry a Longarm, data pad and drawn melee weapon all at the same time (if necessary to the game/encounter/whatnot).
Still can't use each of them simultaneously, but it gives me as a player - quick and ready options, coupled with a nice visual flavour. Just because I can't fire the rifle, stab with the knife whilst surfing Absalom Station's infoweb at the exact same time doesn't limit my PCs actions (or output - be it damage/skills/ability etc) in my eyes.
If you're desperate to have 4+ guns blasting simultaneously then there is the Fusillade Combat Feat no?
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Two-weapon fighting got a little love in the Pact Worlds hardcover. The space pirate theme at the end of the Diaspora section allows a character to make an attack with both a one-handed melee weapon and a small arm (pistol) against the same target as a standard action; have to wait until 12th level, though.
Two-weapon fighting got a little love in the Pact Worlds hardcover. The space pirate theme at the end of the Diaspora section allows a character to make an attack with both a one-handed melee weapon and a small arm (pistol) against the same target as a standard action; have to wait until 12th level, though.
THANK YOU! That's all I wanted!
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The entire point is to balance races with more than one set of arms or there would be little reason for those who wanted to maximize there combat effectiveness to play anything else. The fact that its not in game and implemented in such was as to no benefit anyone particular races is a important and needed balancing of the rules.
NO ONE IS GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT BEING TOO POWERFUL!
Where did a lot of guys get the dumb idea that players HATE being powerful? Have you seen a plyer voluntarily handicapping himself because he thought he was too strong? No!
We got this idea from actually playing the game. Game breaking characters aren't fun to play. They ruin the game.
Unbalanced for the player? Yes, because the player is totally going to complain about it ¬_¬;
Unbalanced for the GM? If he knows about a player's race, surely that he thought a little bit ahead for these.
This comment in general makes my head hurt because it has a very “me, me, me” attitude. You might have not meant it to read this way but that's how I see it. The player might not complain about being overpowered but others might. I have been on both sides and gets boring cutting things in half and not being challenged and it also sucks to stand behind a barbarian and do nothing while he takes on 4 guys at once. The game isn’t built to be fun for one person. It’s built to be fun for the whole group. That’s why there are limits. I have personally nerf my own characters because playing the numbers game sucks in my opinion. I play to have fun. Not to try and break the game which I see most people on threads trying to do.
What is more fun… breezing through in encounter with no challenge at all or a battle where you have to think about what is happening and you barely survive because the battle was challenging? It’s why movies and games with tension are more entertaining than ones without it.
If you want to break your games than be my guest. But you shouldn’t speak so generally because I would assume most people don’t feel breaking the game is that fun.
Starfinder Design Lead
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Before you get too excited, both attacks have a -4 to hit. Also, IIRC, its not a standard action, but a full action. Basically, it just lets you do a full attack with distinct weapons.Two-weapon fighting got a little love in the Pact Worlds hardcover. The space pirate theme at the end of the Diaspora section allows a character to make an attack with both a one-handed melee weapon and a small arm (pistol) against the same target as a standard action; have to wait until 12th level, though.THANK YOU! That's all I wanted!
No, it is a standard action.
You can already make one attack with each of two different weapons at -4 as a full action, without any special abilities.
Two-weapon fighting got a little love in the Pact Worlds hardcover. The space pirate theme at the end of the Diaspora section allows a character to make an attack with both a one-handed melee weapon and a small arm (pistol) against the same target as a standard action; have to wait until 12th level, though.THANK YOU! That's all I wanted!
That's totally different to what you said you wanted previously in this thread.
"I can make a pistol + sword attack at 12th lvl vs the same target, if I don't use full attack" is not the same than "I can make 5 extra pistol attack at 1st level as part of my full attack".
Which is awesome! And opens it up to some interesting potential combos... but it doesn't stop the pistol shot from provoking an attack of opportunity. As far as theme abilities go I think it is one of the stronger combat abilities but it is dangerous due to the AoO and at best you are still pairing an advanced melee weapon with a small arm attack, so maybe 50% boost in damage with lower accuracy and a hit back.Before you get too excited, both attacks have a -4 to hit. Also, IIRC, its not a standard action, but a full action. Basically, it just lets you do a full attack with distinct weapons.Two-weapon fighting got a little love in the Pact Worlds hardcover. The space pirate theme at the end of the Diaspora section allows a character to make an attack with both a one-handed melee weapon and a small arm (pistol) against the same target as a standard action; have to wait until 12th level, though.THANK YOU! That's all I wanted!No, it is a standard action.
You can already make one attack with each of two different weapons at -4 as a full action, without any special abilities.
I wonder if it can be used together with other actions, like Shoot on the Run. If so, it allows to shoot, move, strike with melee weapon, making it particularly interesting with Opening Volley.
I wonder if it can be used together with other actions, like Shoot on the Run. If so, it allows to shoot, move, strike with melee weapon, making it particularly interesting with Opening Volley.
Currently, it looks like you can't. Shot on the Run is a full action, which gives you a single ranged attack anywhere during your movement. It has a special call-out that lets you use it for a ranged trick attack. But the space pirate's Sword and Pistol ability is a standard action, so you wouldn't be able to split up the two attacks.
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I wonder if it can be used together with other actions, like Shoot on the Run. If so, it allows to shoot, move, strike with melee weapon, making it particularly interesting with Opening Volley.Currently, it looks like you can't. Shot on the Run is a full action, which gives you a single ranged attack anywhere during your movement. It has a special call-out that lets you use it for a ranged trick attack. But the space pirate's Sword and Pistol ability is a standard action, so you wouldn't be able to split up the two attacks.
Currently, splitting a melee and a ranged attack at different times in your turn is the province of On the Bounce, a 17th-level Armor Storm Soldier trait, IF you have BOTH Shot on the Run AND Spring Attack (which themselves require Mobility).
Having one feat or 12th level theme trait let you do this would be somewhat ridiculous, and devalue one of the coolest Soldier powers that also requires three feats to work at full potential.
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what i am confused about is that the space pirate theme
has a Sword and pistoL ability that reads
When you are wielding at least one one-handed melee
weapon and at least one small arm, you can make two attacks
against the same target with one of each type of weapon as a
standard action. Each attack takes the same –4 penalty as a
full attack action.
but can't you already do this at a -4 penalty?
what i am confused about is that the space pirate theme
has a Sword and pistoL ability that readsWhen you are wielding at least one one-handed melee
weapon and at least one small arm, you can make two attacks
against the same target with one of each type of weapon as a
standard action. Each attack takes the same –4 penalty as a
full attack action.but can't you already do this at a -4 penalty?
Not as a standard action. Basically the ability lets you attack twice and still move (or use Get 'Em! or whatever).
It is worded a little funny because it mentions a full attack action, when it is just a standard action.
Best use of this currently is to move to 2 spaces away, and Indiana Jones that punk with a whip and a pistol shot, thereby avoiding an opportunity attack for firing your pistol in melee. Or just be an Operative with the ability to avoid AoO.
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what i am confused about is that the space pirate theme
has a Sword and pistoL ability that readsWhen you are wielding at least one one-handed melee
weapon and at least one small arm, you can make two attacks
against the same target with one of each type of weapon as a
standard action. Each attack takes the same –4 penalty as a
full attack action.but can't you already do this at a -4 penalty?
Not as a standard action. Basically the ability lets you attack twice and still move (or use Get 'Em! or whatever).
It is worded a little funny because it mentions a full attack action, when it is just a standard action.
Best use of this currently is to move to 2 spaces away, and Indiana Jones that punk with a whip and a pistol shot, thereby avoiding an opportunity attack for firing your pistol in melee. Or just be an Operative with the ability to avoid AoO.
thanks yeah i missed the standard part of it.
this makes it pretty good :)
Two-weapon fighting got a little love in the Pact Worlds hardcover. The space pirate theme at the end of the Diaspora section allows a character to make an attack with both a one-handed melee weapon and a small arm (pistol) against the same target as a standard action; have to wait until 12th level, though.THANK YOU! That's all I wanted!That's totally different to what you said you wanted previously in this thread.
"I can make a pistol + sword attack at 12th lvl vs the same target, if I don't use full attack" is not the same than "I can make 5 extra pistol attack at 1st level as part of my full attack".
That was part of my request.
Slippery shooter will also give you that bonus to AC. If you don't want to be an operative.
That was part of my request.
That's all I wanted!
Bolded the interesting parts.
That was part of my request.That's all I wanted!Bolded the interesting parts.
I gave up for the multi-armed chaarcters.
I know I certainly wouldn't let people use two weapons simultaneously in my fantasy games. It's far too unrealistic. What do they think this is, some sort of game played for fun?
\As such, i now actively seek out ways to NOT optimize my character. If I come across any idea that I really want to try out, however I feel it's potentially overly-powerful. I flat out build in an intentional weakness, and tell my GM of both the strength and weakness first. That way they know what they are getting into, and can cause situations where I need my party to bail me out. This leads to more fun times for all.
Wow, that's really cool. I'm trying to do something similar in one of the games I'm playing in. But from what I've gathered from our DM's boyfriend, he still sees me as powergaming scum despite the players he describes as, "more casual," having consistently more powerful characters than me.
I'm really glad that it worked out for you, but the mileage may vary with this tactic.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know I certainly wouldn't let people use two weapons simultaneously in my fantasy games. It's far too unrealistic. What do they think this is, some sort of game played for fun?
dunno what makes you believe you can't do that in the game, but in any case, I'll help you to achieve the fun you are looking for.
Pick 2 pistols.
Use the full attack option (-4 to attack, 2 shots)
Make first shot with the pistol in your right hand.
Make your second shot with the pistol in your left hand.
Done, you have your John Woo shooting style covered. You even get a benefit from it! (double the ammo).
Speaking of Space Pirates, am I right to assume that since their thing is a specificic standard action rather than a regular full-attack done quicker, it therefore does not benefit from the usual stuff, like MWF ?
(the various triple/quadruple attacks some classes get seem quite obviously out of the question, thankfully)
Which I guess would make it mostly interesting for those who do not get those move+attack(s) type features. Presumably ?
Bonus question : one of the two attacks must come from the melee weapon, but does it have to be a melee attack ? Starknives are melee weapons too, after all.
May not be the intent, admittedly. But ...
Well, Mr. Gustavo, that post was mostly a criticism of the argument that it should be left out due to realism, framed in a joke to try to add a little mirth to it.
You know, I once had group of players try to get another player to stop using two rapiers in Pathfinder because of that. I think they were being rather silly, don't you?
But back to Starfinder. Yes, that is indeed what my table has been doing. Though I might make a few homebrewed feats similar to some of the new theme abilities. My group's not particularly fond of themes in the first place, so it shouldn't really be much of a problem if we rip chunks off of them in the privacy of our own homes.
Speaking of Space Pirates, am I right to assume that since their thing is a specificic standard action rather than a regular full-attack done quicker, it therefore does not benefit from the usual stuff, like MWF ?
(the various triple/quadruple attacks some classes get seem quite obviously out of the question, thankfully)Which I guess would make it mostly interesting for those who do not get those move+attack(s) type features. Presumably ?
Bonus question : one of the two attacks must come from the melee weapon, but does it have to be a melee attack ? Starknives are melee weapons too, after all.
May not be the intent, admittedly. But ...
Multi-Weapon Fighting is very specific: "When you make a full attack with two or more small arms or with two or more operative melee weapons... reduce the penalty for making a full attack by 1." (emphasis mine) Attacking with one pistol and one operative melee weapon would not qualify, even with a normal full attack.
Bonus question: As long as both attacks are against the same target, it seems legitimate; expect some table variance, though.
Gonna throw in my 2cr on this since I'm currently boggled by this change in game mechanics (not the only one in Starfinder).
I dont see any real justification to change what Pathfinder has done just fine, in my opinion.
I will be looking into simply adding in the feats that help a player reduce the penalty for firing two weapons and allowing them to fire both during a round just like pathfinder.
However, with regards to extending that to characters with more pairs of limbs, I would suggest this requires more feats. You can duel wield with a -4 or take two feats that will reduce this to -2. If you want to use more limbs, then there are two feats that will allow additional pairs of limbs. OR simply state that its not possible due to the limitations of all the current races to process that information.
I'd really like to play that out and see just how bad it is?
I understand the knee jerk reaction to say, "Why are you changing things I liked!?" The reasons they changed certain rules have been stated in numerous blog posts and interviews. I too thought a lot of the rule changes were strange, but I did a lot of research before the game came out and their explanations made me rethink my stances.
If you want to change you change the math you are effectively unbalancing the game. Yes... it's going to be super awesome for someone with two pistols or even someone with multiple limbs, but what about someone with only one weapon? They are basically getting screwed because you feel someone fighting with multiple weapons has better accuracy than someone fighting with one weapon. It becomes a domino effect.
I wonder if it can be used together with other actions, like Shoot on the Run. If so, it allows to shoot, move, strike with melee weapon, making it particularly interesting with Opening Volley.Currently, it looks like you can't. Shot on the Run is a full action, which gives you a single ranged attack anywhere during your movement. It has a special call-out that lets you use it for a ranged trick attack. But the space pirate's Sword and Pistol ability is a standard action, so you wouldn't be able to split up the two attacks.
Still it would let you do some stuff like some of the envoy abilities that use a move action then still basically be able to do a full attack in some situations. A potentially nicely useful ability for classes that tend to use their move action to do stuff so often lose out on full attack ability.