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Butterfly Sting is a nice feat. Which are the best SOLO builds that use it? SOLO = no other players are needed to make it work.
Here some examples:
Unchained Summoner with Azata eidolon:
Summoner TWFing with kukris until a crit is confirmed. He then forgoes the rest of his round, and the eidolon attacks with scythe.
- Feats for the Summoner. Compulsory: Kukri prof, Combat Expertise, Butterfly Sting, TWF, Improved Crit, Crit Focus. Suggested: Weapon Finesse, iTWG, gTWF, Outflank.
- Feats for eidolon. Compulsory: Power Attack. Suggested: Furious Focus, Weapon Focus, Outflank, any feat improving its chance to hit.
PRO: it's cool; does not require any stretch of the rules.
CON: it requires a lot of feats and doesn't come online before mid-levels; the summoner loses its turn as soon as he confirms a crit; MAD if not using Weapon Finesse.
NOTES:
- Outflank does not give a AoO to the eidolon. An AoO from the Summoner is triggered when the eidolon scores the crit, hence giving a free AoO to the Summoner, who however does not deal any real damage. However, if the Summoner scores another crit with the AoO, he can pass it to the eidolon in case it has multiple attacks.
- A dip into Cavalier Outrider gives Combat Expertise, +1 BAB, kukris prof. and a free combat maneuver feat (and a 1 level mount).
Hunter with anthropomorphic companion:
As before, but now an animal companion is holding the scythe. Since animals can't use weapons, you have to wait until you can cast Anthropomorphic Animal, permanently eventually.
- Feats for the Hunter. Compulsory: Combat Expertise, Butterfly Sting, TWF, Improved Crit, Crit Focus. Suggested: Pack Flanking, Paired Opportunist, iTWG, gTWF.
- Feats for companion. Compulsory: scythe prof, Power Attack. Suggested: Furious Focus, Weapon Focus, any feat improving its chance to hit.
PRO: much more effective; no proficiency required; free Outflank and bonus teamwork feats.
CON: some GMs might not allow companions to use weapons while in anthropomorphic form.
NOTES:
- Thanks to Pack Flanking and Paired Opportunist, the companion gets a free AoO after the AoO the Hunter gets via Outflank. Therefore, if the Hunter's AoO scores a crit, the companion's AoO will be a crit as well.
- A dip into Cavalier Outrider is not as important as before, since you already have kukri prof, but if your GM agrees with stacking levels for the purposes of the companion's advancement, it could be useful.
Literally SOLO:
Any class. TWF with a pick in the main hand and a kukri in the off-hand. Start each iterative with the kukri attack.
- Feats. Compulsory: Combat Expertise, Butterfly Sting, Power Attack, TWF, iTWF, gTWF, Critical Focus, Improved Critical
PRO: it's easy to make it work
CON: it's VERY feat intensive, since you are both the crit-fisher and the damage-dealer; deals overall less damage since the pick is held one-handed.
NOTES:
- If your GM allows it, a 2-levels dip into Alchemist could grant you a third arm to hold the pick (or a scythe) with 2 hands, hence dealing more damage. However it might not work since vestigial arms follow very cloudy mechanics.
Any other ideas?
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Using butterfly sting on yourself is a huge abuse of the you count as your own ally faq. Like teamwork feats, this is clearly intended to be used to grant your critical hit to someone else. I would not allow you to count as your own ally if I were GMing using the unless doing so wouldn't make sense sentence.
That said the eidolon and animal companion builds are valid, as is leadership if your GM allows it.
Fighter, Sorcerer, Bloodrager or Wizard with a Familiar might work.
Especially the Fighter archetype that grants his feats to the familiar. Both sides get the feat, more chances to proc.
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Exactly this. I'd turn your character away from the table for it.Using butterfly sting on yourself is a huge abuse of the you count as your own ally faq. Like teamwork feats, this is clearly intended to be used to grant your critical hit to someone else. I would not allow you to count as your own ally if I were GMing using the unless doing so wouldn't make sense sentence.
That said the eidolon and animal companion builds are valid, as is leadership if your GM allows it.
Just chiming in to say that I'm in the same boat. In no way would I ever allow it to be used by yourself.
Summoner TWFing with kukris until a crit is confirmed. He then forgoes the rest of his round
This isn't necessary. He can take the rest of his attacks (even if you want to cheat and allow yourself to claim the crits, all you have to do is hit, then keep passing the crit on).
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Uhm, so using Butterfly Sting on the same character is an abuse, despite it's extremely feat intensive and overall less performing (less damage, less crit-fishing attacks), but using it on a Hunter-companion character, which is logistically the same in terms of action economy, but obtaining waaay better results, is OK.
But wait! Let's say that it is indeed cheating. Suddenly it becomes even better because the effect doesn't go away on my next hit, so I can still finish my attack routine and my companion/eidolon/ally with the huge 2H weapon can x4-crit.
This allows even MORE power playing! Thanks!
It's alway funny to see how people lose their sh*t for irrelevant details. Btw, you should give a look to the definition of clearly because allowing Butterfly Sting on the same character is not-clearly cheating, given the huge amount of threads about it.
Can we now move on or is it too much to ask?
Fighter, Sorcerer, Bloodrager or Wizard with a Familiar might work.
Especially the Fighter archetype that grants his feats to the familiar. Both sides get the feat, more chances to proc.
Yeah, familiars are indeed a good idea. However they will never have as much strength as an eidolon/animal companion, so the damage on the critical will still be limited.
Another option would be going Hunter, with a 1-level dip into Sage Counciler Unchained Monk. It gives free Combat Expertise, Wis to AC, +1 BAB and flurry, which is better than TWF. Unfortunately there are no monk weapons with 18-20 crit range. I'll keep looking.
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Don't know what the big issue with solo-tactics Butterfly Sting is. You've got to spend gold on a pretty worthless magical property... on both weapons... and invest in a truly terrible feat chain and build concept... and not really deal much damage despite x4 crits. It's kinda a yawner, but cleverly fun.
...no magical properties are involved here, so I don't know what you're talking about. That being said, I agree with you. Hunter/Summoner-companion/eidolon is a much more effective combination.
Fighter, Sorcerer, Bloodrager or Wizard with a Familiar might work.
Especially the Fighter archetype that grants his feats to the familiar. Both sides get the feat, more chances to proc.
Yeah, familiars are indeed a good idea. However they will never have as much strength as an eidolon/animal companion, so the damage on the critical will still be limited.
Another option would be going Hunter, with a 1-level dip into Sage Counciler Unchained Monk. It gives free Combat Expertise, Wis to AC, +1 BAB and flurry, which is better than TWF. Unfortunately there are no monk weapons with 18-20 crit range. I'll keep looking.
Would you not give the familiar the High critical Keen weapons and the fighter the x4 weapon? Making the fighter the deliverer of punishment. The critical weapons are merely just fishing.
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Would you not give the familiar the High critical Keen weapons and the fighter the x4 weapon? Making the fighter the deliverer of punishment. The critical weapons are merely just fishing.Fighter, Sorcerer, Bloodrager or Wizard with a Familiar might work.
Especially the Fighter archetype that grants his feats to the familiar. Both sides get the feat, more chances to proc.
Yeah, familiars are indeed a good idea. However they will never have as much strength as an eidolon/animal companion, so the damage on the critical will still be limited.
Another option would be going Hunter, with a 1-level dip into Sage Counciler Unchained Monk. It gives free Combat Expertise, Wis to AC, +1 BAB and flurry, which is better than TWF. Unfortunately there are no monk weapons with 18-20 crit range. I'll keep looking.
Right, but in this way it gets a bit more complicated, because Butterfly Sting is not a combat feat, therefore familiars cannot get it through the Eldritch Guardian class feature. The only way is through at least two levels of Eldritch Guardian, to give it Combat Expertise, and then either one level of Beast Bonded Witch or Spirit Binder Wizard. It seems a nice setting for a long-term Eldritch Knight build, although it becomes VERY expensive.
I assume the familiar should be either a monkey, if the GM allows monkeys to wield weapon, or an improved one.
Would you not give the familiar the High critical Keen weapons and the fighter the x4 weapon? Making the fighter the deliverer of punishment. The critical weapons are merely just fishing.Fighter, Sorcerer, Bloodrager or Wizard with a Familiar might work.
Especially the Fighter archetype that grants his feats to the familiar. Both sides get the feat, more chances to proc.
Yeah, familiars are indeed a good idea. However they will never have as much strength as an eidolon/animal companion, so the damage on the critical will still be limited.
Another option would be going Hunter, with a 1-level dip into Sage Counciler Unchained Monk. It gives free Combat Expertise, Wis to AC, +1 BAB and flurry, which is better than TWF. Unfortunately there are no monk weapons with 18-20 crit range. I'll keep looking.
Right, but in this way it gets a bit more complicated, because Butterfly Sting is not a combat feat, therefore familiars cannot get it through the Eldritch Guardian class feature. The only way is through at least two levels of Eldritch Guardian, to give it Combat Expertise, and then either one level of Beast Bonded Witch or Spirit Binder Wizard. It seems a nice setting for a long-term Eldritch Knight build, although it becomes VERY expensive.
I assume the familiar should be either a monkey, if the GM allows monkeys to wield weapon, or an improved one.
Yes, it does set up nicely for EK. Which is very fun. Then grab an improved familiar.
Check out approximating familiars and such. I assume this is not for PFS.
Twinned Summoner archetype might be good for this, you get bonus teamwork feats at 4th and 12th level, your eidolon gets all your known teamwork feats for free, and your eidolon can buy an extra feat for 2 evolution points. You can also buy a 1 point evolution called Shared Evolution, which lets you borrow a 1-2 point evolution from your eidolon. Which means for the cost of 3 evolution points you can buy a feat for yourself.
I'd allow straight solo. Anyone who thinks it's cheating haven't tried to build a character with it, IMO.
Plus, it's cool stuff for martials! It encourages those wierd *4 melee crit weapons that no-one ever uses!
That said, I think the optimal place for this is on a rogue or something.
Maybe someone makes an antiquarian style investigator - this would fit in there.
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I'm in the camp that this use of "you count as your own ally unless it doesn't make sense to do so" does not prevent you from taking advantage of your own butterfly sting. I feel like people use that rule simply because they don't like it as opposed to it actually not making sense.
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The feat says you pass it in to an ally. Not on to to yourself. It makes it clear it happens before the start of your next turn.
Further, it is my understanding you can't do an offhand attack first. Which is to say which ever hand you attack with first is your main hand. So the kukri idea is out as the heavy weapon is the offhand. A light pick would be fine.
Additionally it's not "feat intensive". It's combat expertise, a feat required for a good dozen other feats. All of which you can skip with dirty fighting.
More to That, it isnt less damage crit fishing. The whole point is that it gives a x4 weapon a crit with a friend using a 15 to 20. That's the exact opposite of what you're saying.
Lastly even of it was feat intensive that wouldn't matter. No number of feats of takes to invest into something should allow cheating at a table.
You clearly have understood NOTHING of the whole argument. Well, too bad.
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A possible familiar-based build could be:
EG = Eldritch Guardian
SBW = Spirit Binder Wizard, Conjuration [Teleportation] school or Transmutation
EK = Eldritch Knight
(C) = Combat Feat > familiar gets it
Human:
Traits: Magical Knack, Killer
1 EG: Power Attack, Combat Expertise(C), [Familiar (any w/ Dex 13)]
2 EG
3 SBW: Arcane Strike, [Familiar: Butterfly Sting, 1st lvl spells]
4 SBW
5 SBW: Outflank(C) (if Cassissian, who can flank) or Furious Focus [2nd lvl spells]
6 SBW:
7 SBW: Improved Familiar [Cassissian (requires a +2 Dex item)/Imp], [Familiar: TWF, 3rd lvl spells]
8 EK: Weapon Focus[scythe]
9 EK: Weapon Specialisation[scythe]
10 EK [4th lvl spells]
11 EK: Improved Critical[kukri](C)
12 EK: Critical Focus(C), [5th lvl spells]
13 EK: G Weapon Focus[scythe]
14 EK: [6th lvl spells]
15 EK: G Weapon Specialisation[scythe]
16 EK: Death or Glory [7th lvl spells]
17 EK: Critical Versatility [cast spell as swift actions on crits]
Assuming:
- starting strength of 18 + 4 (lvl) + 6 (item) = 28
- +1/X Burst scythe
At level 16 you deal 8d6 (base) + 52 (str) + 48 (Power Attack) + 16 (Arcane Strike) + 16 (Weapon Spec) + 16 (Death or Glory) + 4 (trait) + 4+3d10 (+1/X Burst) ~ 200.5 on a single hit, first one of a full attack routine, which could be triggered with a probability of 83.2% each round (familiar gets 3 iterative attacks + 1 from haste + 1 from TWF). More damage could be added with additional X Burst weapon enhancements or buffs.
Not bad for a Wizard :P
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I don't really see why people are objecting to this being used with you as your own ally.
Furthermore regardless of where you fall so far as that disagreement, saying you'd turn a character away from the table simply for attempting it or that to do so would be "cheating" are both unnecessarily inflammatory and the second suggestion is skirting the border on being a personal attack on Grey Warden's character if you ask me.
Can't people disagree without being hurtful?
Can't people disagree without being hurtful?
Speaking of Hurtful...
When the OP states clearly that some of the builds require stretching rules, it's equally fair to state that I wouldn't allow said characters at my table. If you feel that's a personal attack feel free to flag it.
I didn't say it was ...
I said the second suggestion (of cheating), that to do so was trying to cheat, was skirting the border of a personal attack. I'd rather not flag things that don't directly concern me, rather leave that up to the people who it concerns, different people handle things differently. I was merely pointing out you can object to something and remain civil.Saying that one understanding of the rules is cheating is not being civil, saying that the user in question is trying to cheat is even less so.
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I don't really see why people are objecting to this being used with you as your own ally.
Furthermore regardless of where you fall so far as that disagreement, saying you'd turn a character away from the table simply for attempting it or that to do so would be "cheating" are both unnecessarily inflammatory and the second suggestion is skirting the border on being a personal attack on Grey Warden's character if you ask me.
Can't people disagree without being hurtful?
It's exactly the same as taking escape route and claiming that because you are an ally that has escape route and you are in your space, that any movement you make doesn't provoke an AoE.
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Did anyone else come here to learn what butterfly string does? Or is it just me?
I disagree here, I think you can't qualify because:
It's exactly the same as taking escape route and claiming that because you are an ally that has escape route and you are in your space, that any movement you make doesn't provoke an AoE.
An ally who also has this feat provokes no attacks of opportunity for moving through squares adjacent to you or within your space.
You can't do the movement and have one of these conditions apply continuously throughout your movement. If it's adjacent when you start your movement it no longer is once you cross the line between the squares. And it's only your square once you're already in it and the movement is complete.
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It's exactly the same as taking escape route and claiming that because you are an ally that has escape route and you are in your space, that any movement you make doesn't provoke an AoE.I don't really see why people are objecting to this being used with you as your own ally.
Furthermore regardless of where you fall so far as that disagreement, saying you'd turn a character away from the table simply for attempting it or that to do so would be "cheating" are both unnecessarily inflammatory and the second suggestion is skirting the border on being a personal attack on Grey Warden's character if you ask me.
Can't people disagree without being hurtful?
With the small exception that Escape Route is a Teamwork feat, while Butterfly Sting isn't. Teamwork feats are known by the community to work only with allies other than you, while the objection about Butterfly Sting is only your personal -unasked- opinion. Happy now?
How about answering with some interesting build ideas, which was the question in the first place? If you don't have any, as it seems, feel free not to post: it's OK, you don't have to bother us with irrelevant and subjective rule details.
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About the familiar-based build, Cassissian is quite a bad familiar to be honest. The Hellfire Ignis is much better for this scope, since it's small sized, has a nice 20 Dex and a bite, which despite the 20/x2 crit range and the -5 to hit while used with manufacted weapons, could still score a crit. Unfortunately it's a Fey, and therefore has no martial weapon proficiency. Another option is Mephit, who is indeed proficient in martial weapons, but has only 15 Dex, that is 3 less than the Hellfire Ignis...which almost neglects the weapon proficiency. Earth Elemental is yet another option, but it's not clear whether it can wield weapons or not. If so, it has a nice 16 Str, is Small, and being an outsider is also proficient with martial weapons. Imp is nice, but it's Tiny, hence provokes AoO every time it wants to attack, and does not flank.
Quicken Spell would be nice to have, to be sure to land that crit with a quickened True Strike. However it clashed with Arcane Strike and the 10th level EK class feature.
What do you think? Other ideas?
Question: Are familiar and animal companions allowed to wield wepons in PFS? I recall a Blog post which forbids it...
Suggestion: Barbarian gets a nice little Rage power in Villain Codex called two-fanged pounce:
Two-Fanged Pounce (Ex): If the barbarian is wielding
a pair of daggers, kukris, or punching daggers, she can
attack once with each of the two weapons when she charges.
If she does, she loses the bonus on attack rolls for charging
and takes an additional –2 penalty to her AC, and she applies
precision damage or effects that occur on a hit only once,
even if she hits with both attacks.
The Katar is considered a punching dagger.
Also Brawler is great for this. Brawlers flurry lows you to make attacks with one weapon. So attack with the Kukri until you crit. Then whack em with the katr.
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With the small exception that Escape Route is a Teamwork feat, while Butterfly Sting isn't. Teamwork feats are known by the community to work only with allies other than you, while the objection about Butterfly Sting is only your personal -unasked- opinion. Happy now?How about answering with some interesting build ideas, which was the question in the first place? If you don't have any, as it seems, feel free not to post: it's OK, you don't have to bother us with irrelevant and subjective rule details.
As this is the advice forum, the fact that your entire premise is offensive and likely to at best experience extreme table variation makes it worth pointing out.
I am not posting any ideas on how to abuse a rule because it won't be helpful to your game experience if you are going to be in a situation where it will be called.
That said, I have agreed that a familiar, companion, eidolon, or cohort would benefit from the feat and a eldritch guardian fighter with an improved familiar would be the best way to leverage a high crit weapon weilded by another creature.
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> I think the advice of not abusing a rule is the best advice you could give
O wow, really? Thanks!
...too bad that allowing Butterfly Sting on a single character is not abusing a rule. You are your own ally unless said otherwise, and Butterfly Sting is a Critical feat that does not say otherwise. That's the RAW. Wanna talk about RAI? By allowing it, you are actually using the opening caused by a previous attack to score a critical with the next one, which does make perfect sense, and is still under-performing compared to an Hunter-build. The end.
You objection is just your opinion, and the amount of threads about it are proof. Both of you have largely made me aware of such opinion, fine, but since neither of you is my GM, and since my GM agrees with me, I don't see why you keep pulling it out.
I disagree with you: deal with it.
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You can't use kukris with Brawler's flurry, can you?
You can't use kukris with Brawler's flurry, can you?
True! Normally you can't but adventure's armory provides a work around with the tactically adapted weapon enhancement...
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...too bad that allowing Butterfly Sting on a single character is not abusing a rule. You are your own ally unless said otherwise, and Butterfly Sting is a Critical feat that does not say otherwise.
What you wrote and the actual rule say different things. I don't think you are trying to misrepresent your stance but what the ruling says is "if doing so would make no sense or be impossible." The ruling come down to ask your GM if they think it makes sense.
I can't imagine a gm ruling against the two character options, but there is no way to decide what makes sense to your GM for one character without asking.
Whatever, the ruling it has to be consistent for the whole game. If you TWF with 2 kukris in a game with a ruling that the you are your own ally, then you can only pass a crit to another character if it is your last attack or you stop your full attack. Otherwise you HAVE to take the crit on your next kukri attack. When I read it this way and make the ruling universal to the whole game it does not seem like the intent of the rule but that is still up to interpretation.
I like Dwarven Slayers for this
You can cheat out TWF with the Ranger Combat Feats so you do not need excessive dexterity, and it allows you to wield a Kukri in one hand and a Heavy Pick in the other. Using the Kurki, forgoing the crit, and then smashing them to pieces with a pick is so wonderfully Dwarven. Thundering Heavy Pick for extra goodness.
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True! Normally you can't but adventure's armory provides a work around with the tactically adapted weapon enhancement...
You can't use kukris with Brawler's flurry, can you?
Tactically Adapted does not include monk property, so you still cannot flurry with kukris.
The problem with the truly-solo build is that it uses the Pick one handed, which is 50% less damage compared to 2H builds. Moreover, it gets half as many crit-fishing attacks, which translates again in less damage.
Versatile design could help I think. Make a Kukri a close weapon and go to town with it.
Versatile design could help I think. Make a Kukri a close weapon and go to town with it.
Speaking of Brawlers being able to do stupid things: doesn't this let them use any weapon? Can I expect Versatile Katana or even Greatsword Brawlers to show up making Flury of Blows with "Close" weapons?
Yeah, probably... I mean, it wouldn't work with monks because their flurry weapons need to have the monk QUALITY, while brawlers only need to be in the close weapon group. Pretty good, if I do say so myself.
Brawlers and Monks don't need Kukris, Adventurer's Armory 2 came out with the Waveblade, an 18-20/x2 close weapon with the monk quality (but not in the monk weapon group). Also has a d6 base rather than d4, which admittedly isn't much, but its still nice.
On a different note, Half-Elf Bloodrager/Alchemist could be neat. Use the Arcane bloodline to get free action haste, and have extra arms to hold both a Nodachi and a Tetsubo (ancestral arms) at the same time. It won't trigger as often as if you TWF, but the crits will be more show-stopping with the 1.5 STR/PA bonuses, as well as mutagen/bloodrage stacked together. Definitely a higher level option though, since you don't get as many attacks to benefit.
Brawlers and Monks don't need Kukris, Adventurer's Armory 2 came out with the Waveblade, an 18-20/x2 close weapon with the monk quality (but not in the monk weapon group). Also has a d6 base rather than d4, which admittedly isn't much, but its still nice.
On a different note, Half-Elf Bloodrager/Alchemist could be neat. Use the Arcane bloodline to get free action haste, and have extra arms to hold both a Nodachi and a Tetsubo (ancestral arms) at the same time. It won't trigger as often as if you TWF, but the crits will be more show-stopping with the 1.5 STR/PA bonuses, as well as mutagen/bloodrage stacked together. Definitely a higher level option though, since you don't get as many attacks to benefit.
Em... you also get half as many attacks as a twf build and thus half as many attacks to trigger a crit!
If you're going to abuse and cheese these rules, go Shadowdancer. Having your shadow crit for 2D6 strength damage is nasty.
Shadowdancer is weaksauce. Be a cleric with the darkness domain and summon multiple shadows! That way you don't even need to crit for them to do multiple d6 worth of str damage.
Personally, I'd do something unconventional. Like a swashbuckler who runs around with a kukri and a heavy pick stacked with burst enhancements.
By RAW, you can use weapons held in different hands interchangeably in iteratives as part of a full attack without getting into twf rules. You'd basically rely crit-fishing with your rapier, with the pick for finishers. Personally I like a power attack into hurtful and cornugon smash build for this, so you have as many attacks as possible.
Something like 14/16+2/14/7/9/14 on a 20 point buy option, as half-orc and stats in that order.
Feats would be
1 - Power Attack
1S - Weapon Finesse
3 - Combat Expertise
4S - Butterfly's Sting
5 - Hurtful
7 - Cornugon Smash
grab sacred tattoo and fate's favored for your s%#~ty-ass saves, and either killer or beastial instinct for your traits. Get a +1 thundering heavy pick, and reap those occasional 4d6+39+3d8(+4?) crits, while also being scary the rest of the time. It's not paladin on scythe damage or anything, but swashbuckler provides a nice mix of benefits for this. 69.5 average damage will screw with stuff pretty good.