I'd argue the first case: it is suppressed (whatever that means in this case) while travelling through, but then reappears fully formed at the other side. There are two reasons I'd suggest that's the case:
1- "An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it" - from the spell description
2 - The existence of the spell "wall of suppression" which is a higher level spell and (I think) would stop a fireball in its tracks (even though it doesn't specifically 'dispel' the fireball, it would 'suppress' it for at least 17 rounds). If antimagic field (level 8) did this, there'd be no point casting wall of suppression (level 9).
Again I'd say yes, based on "...does not dispel it". The wall of suppression text (while a different spell) suggests so too: "A spell or effect with a duration greater than that of the suppression effect resumes functioning normally when the suppression ends"
I would argue that the fireball pea (the spell creates a tiny projectile which explodes) is suppressed, which would mean it ceases to be, and that which does not exist cannot continue to travel.
This would have interesting implications in that the spell would in theory return and continue its trajectory after the AMF ended.
@Umbungo, the point of wall of suppression is that it's an AMF that's not centered on you the caster. That's the huge drawback that most people forget about. The people that can cast AMF are all 9th level progression spell casters, but casting AMF removes their main class feature.
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It's an instantaneous spell, its suppressed and cannot move through the AMF, so its duration expires and it ends
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Summoned creatures cease to exist. They can't move out of the spell or continue on to the other side. They reappear once the the antimagic field is gone.
Assuming it doesn't just end immediately, if anything the fireball spell would do the same. It stops existing as soon as it hits the field. Once the field is gone, the fireball resumes traveling to its original target point.
If summoned creatures disappear and can't keep moving, so does the fireball.
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Summoned creatures cease to exist. They can't move out of the spell or continue on to the other side. They reappear once the the antimagic field is gone.
Assuming it doesn't just end immediately, if anything the fireball spell would do the same. It stops existing as soon as it hits the field. Once the field is gone, the fireball resumes traveling to its original target point.
If summoned creatures disappear and can't keep moving, so does the fireball.
If a summoned creature's duration keeps running while in an AMF then the same should be true for a Fireball. It's instantaneous, so it fizzles in the AMF.
Exactly, a less conservative interpretation would be it reappears and moves after the AMF has gone.
But suppressed means it's gone. It doesn't maintain momentum and continue through. It ceases to be.
If it would still exist when AMF is gone, it resumes functioning. Instantaneous spells would not.
Concerning the duration, if we are houseruling the duration to be not instaneous (as the book lists it), we should infer that the duration is less than one round, as the spell always reaches the target the round it is cast, regardless of distance. So the duration will have expired when the AMF ends.
Agreed with JavaMan. Even if you try to argue for non-instantaneous duration as is listed in the rule book, it would still be a duration of less than 1 round. In fact it's less than 1 turn. Because the spell is always resolved before the end of the caster's turn. Unless the AMF ended in the middle of the caster's turn somehow, it would simply disappear.
I think that the AMF suppresses all aspects of the spell, including it's travel. It will of course continue it's movement once the AMF dissipates. I think it would act as a pseudo-delayed fireball in this case. However why are you hitting the AMF in the first place? There is nothing in the spell description that indicates the fireball must travel in a straight line from your finger to the target area. It only mentions that a ranged touch attack is necessary for precision based movement like sending it through an arrow slit.
I think that the AMF suppresses all aspects of the spell, including it's travel. It will of course continue it's movement once the AMF dissipates. I think it would act as a pseudo-delayed fireball in this case. However why are you hitting the AMF in the first place? There is nothing in the spell description that indicates the fireball must travel in a straight line from your finger to the target area. It only mentions that a ranged touch attack is necessary for precision based movement like sending it through an arrow slit.
I think the area of effect rules that apply to magic in general prohibit curved or angled paths between caster and target.
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Nope, the rules do not prevent this:
Aiming a Spell:
For an Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
A Fireball is a 20 FT Radius Area Spread Effect Spell with a minimum 400 FT range.
It doesn't state anywhere that you can't curve the delivery of the spell in anyway so long as it's in range. Thus curving the spell is allowed. If you want to houserule that in your own game go for it but RAW it is allowed. Think of it this way, if a MLB pitcher can throw a wicked curve ball without the use of any magic then why can't a wizard shoot an epic curve fireball with magic?
But is line of effect blocked by AMF? If you believe that the pea streaking is just fluff text, then unless the AMF blocks line of effect, you should be able to target something past the AMF.
John Murdock, it seems you like making up rules. So this might be in vain but I'll try this again.
For aiming an effect: You must designate the location where these things are to appear, EITHER BY SEEING OR DEFINING IT.
Note the whole defining it part... lets you say I'm gonna curve this fireball up over the anti-magic field and down the other side to a target location (Point of Origin) also, anti-magic fields are invisible or at least transparent so you can see through them as well.
For a Spread effect: YOU SELECT THE SPELL"S POINT OF ORIGIN.
Fireball is NOT a line of effect spell and does NOT follow those rules. It is a SPREAD area of effect spell. No where in the spell's description or stat block does it say that it follows line of sight or adhere to the line of effect rules. So stop adding faux rules to things unless you're the GM in your house game.
If that isn't enough then here's the part from the spell's description that describes how the spell moves. Show me where it says you can't curve or send it on an unusual course.
"You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely."
The mere fact it mentions that a material body or barrier can cause it to explode prematurely implies you can do weird movements with it since if you needed direct line of sight to your target area then a material body or barrier would be in the way, would it?
Well, we do know that the pea hitting a solid but transparent barrier between the caster and the target point will make the fireball go off at the point where it hits that barrier instead of at the target point, so that would suggest that the pea is a physical object that actually travels through the air from one point to another.
Well, we do know that the pea hitting a solid but transparent barrier between the caster and the target point will make the fireball go off at the point where it hits that barrier instead of at the target point, so that would suggest that the pea is a physical object that actually travels through the air from one point to another.
Yes I agree, that's the whole ranged touch attack portion to go though an arrow slit hole in the wall or traverse a narrow pathway, but when you cast the spell you define the target point if you can't see it. Thus you could say that your target point is out the door and 20 ft down the hallway to the left. Your fireball would travel out the door and 20 ft down the hallway to the left and burst. That is RAW allowed.
Concerning the duration, if we are houseruling the duration to be not instaneous (as the book lists it), we should infer that the duration is less than one round, as the spell always reaches the target the round it is cast, regardless of distance. So the duration will have expired when the AMF ends.
The spell might not reach the target the round it is cast if, say, it we stopped but not detonated and not erased from existence by some sort of effect.
It's not truly instantaneous though. From fireball:
"A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point."
Clearly it travels ("streaks") from your finger to its target. This means it is not instantaneous, but it has a duration (the time it takes to streak from your finger to its target) - though likely one one that is very brief. If it was instantaneous it would either have to be a ray that instantly appears between your finger and the target, or simply an effect that happens at the target.
Given then that it has a duration, during which it travels from your finger to the target, would it not follow that the AMF does not cause it to fizzle out, and instead only suppress it while its traveling (fast but not instantaneously) through its area? Or does the AMF also suppress the travel?
Just so we're all on the same page, I'll restate the argument above in terms that I think are clearer.
The duration of fireball is the time it takes it to streak from your finger to the point, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, in which case the duration is the time it takes for the fireball to streak from your finger to the point at which the impact occurs. When casting fireball through an antimagic field, the fireball travels towards the target until it hits the antimagic field, at which point it is suppressed. The duration is the time it takes it to reach the prescribed range or hit a solid barrier, neither of which have happened yet. The fireball cannot travel while in the antimagic field, so it will continue to exist at the point where it entered the antimagic field until that antimagic field stops existing. It will then behave as if nothing had happened in the time since it was cast.
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Yes I agree, that's the whole ranged touch attack portion to go though an arrow slit hole in the wall or traverse a narrow pathway, but when you cast the spell you define the target point if you can't see it. Thus you could say that your target point is out the door and 20 ft down the hallway to the left. Your fireball would travel out the door and 20 ft down the hallway to the left and burst. That is RAW allowed.Well, we do know that the pea hitting a solid but transparent barrier between the caster and the target point will make the fireball go off at the point where it hits that barrier instead of at the target point, so that would suggest that the pea is a physical object that actually travels through the air from one point to another.
No, it isn't allowed.
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
You can't cast a fireball "out the door and down the hall". You must have line of effect to the origin point, which means you must have a straight unblocked path between you and that point.
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Ooh, this would make an interesting trap. Nobody would expect to be incinerated for taking down an anti-magic field.
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Thus you could say that your target point is out the door and 20 ft down the hallway to the left. Your fireball would travel out the door and 20 ft down the hallway to the left and burst. That is RAW allowed.
I believe the idea that a fireball can turn corners is entirely unsupported by the rules.
Beyond the generic line of effect rules, fireball itself says "You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst." This is giving a a vector (pointing) and a length (distance and height) which plainly defines a line, not a curve and certainly not multiple vectors and lengths which is what it would take to turn corners.
Concerning the duration, if we are houseruling the duration to be not instaneous (as the book lists it), we should infer that the duration is less than one round, as the spell always reaches the target the round it is cast, regardless of distance. So the duration will have expired when the AMF ends.The spell might not reach the target the round it is cast if, say, it we stopped but not detonated and not erased from existence by some sort of effect.
It's not truly instantaneous though. From fireball:
"A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point."
Clearly it travels ("streaks") from your finger to its target. This means it is not instantaneous, but it has a duration (the time it takes to streak from your finger to its target) - though likely one one that is very brief. If it was instantaneous it would either have to be a ray that instantly appears between your finger and the target, or simply an effect that happens at the target.
Given then that it has a duration, during which it travels from your finger to the target, would it not follow that the AMF does not cause it to fizzle out, and instead only suppress it while its traveling (fast but not instantaneously) through its area? Or does the AMF also suppress the travel?
Just so we're all on the same page, I'll restate the argument above in terms that I think are clearer.
The duration of fireball is the time it takes it to streak from your finger to the point, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, in which case the duration is the time it takes for the fireball to streak from your finger to the point at which the impact occurs. When casting fireball through an antimagic field, the fireball travels towards the target until it hits the antimagic field, at which point it is...
So you are houseruling that instantaneous is defined as the "period of time required to reach the target." If I were to accept this houseruled definition, I would support the logic of your position.
Provided it does work, it could lead to some interesting combinations.
Imagine a crowded street full of people fleeing from a monster in panic. A party of heroes stands before the unrushing crowd. The party sorcerer can't fireball the monster in the back, since he risks hitting the quickly moving mob in the front. However, the wizard makes his way to the center of the crowd and casts antimagic field, enveloping them. The sorcerer then follows up with fireball, which "skips" the crowd, blowing up the monster on the far side of them.
Mission accomplished heroes!
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creature, or object to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst's center point, a cone-shaped burst's starting point, a cylinder's circle, or an emanation's point of origin).
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
You can't cast a fireball "out the door and down the hall". You must have line of effect to the origin point,...
Show me where in the spell description of Fireball that it defines it as a "line of effect". Because what I read was 20 FT Radius SPREAD.
Here's a link to where you can find rules for casting an SPREAD Area of Effect spell (Fireball is an Area of Effect Spell) scroll down to the part effect under "Aiming a Spell" where it describes casting a Spread spell.
You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it. Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile, after it appears it can move regardless of the spell's range.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
The rules do not say that the pea sized fireball cannot turn nor do they specify that it has to move from point A to point B in a straight line. Thus it does not have to do those things. Please stop making up rules unless you're the GM in your house game.
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The rules for line of effect are the general rules for all spells unless specifically stated otherwise. Nothing at all about the fireball spell says it works any differently from the general rules, so the general rules apply.
You need line of effect to the point of origin, and line of effect is defined as a straight, unobstructed line from you to the point of origin.
There are 4 bolded entries under Aiming a Spell. 3 of them are the 3 types of spells (target, area, effect). The last bolded entry describes what line of effect is for aiming a spell. That section applies to all spells.
If a fireball could turn a corner you wouldn't need the rules on shooting the bead through a hole.
And furthermore, from aiming an area spell:
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
Area spells clearly have a point of origin, yes? Now, from the rules for line of effect:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It's like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it's not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
It couldn't be clearer. Area spells have points of origin. Line of effect is needed to the point of origin for ALL spells. Unless a spell says otherwise, it must follow all of the general rules for aiming a spell. Fireball does not specify otherwise, so works with the general rules.
Stuff in the general Magic chapter are the same across all spells unless noted. That is why that chapter exists, so you don't have to keep referencing the same exact thing over and over in each individual spell. Only the exceptions that go against the general rules are called out in the individual spells.
You need a line of effect. In pathfinder, lines are straight.
You need line of effect to the point of origin, and line of effect is defined as a straight, unobstructed line from you to the point of origin.
I may have gone about it the wrong way (magic rules are kinda poorly worded) but I still believe it can curve. The spell originates at your fingertip (per the spell description) then travels to the "spreads" point of origin in an unspecified manner. Is there a straight line from you to your fingertip? Your line of effect is then established. Now if you want to it to do barrel rolls while on it's way there or turn left down a hallway then I can't see why not. Plus it's cooler that way.
Where does it say that you can curve the spell? Typically you need things like that spelled out in the rules, which is why spells that allow shape-able areas specifically call it out.
Where does it say you can't? Typically rules only specify things you can't do, especially for a game that takes place in your mind and is really only limited by your imagination and the rules. The fireball spell states that a glowing pea-sized bead forms at your fingertip and streaks from your pointing digit to the place you specified (height, distance). Now a streak could be defined as a line (not necessarily a straight one as not all lines are in fact straight), or another definition is moving very fast in a specified direction. Since it moves >450 FT near instantaneously I'd say the that both fit. It also lacks any form of a descriptor word like "straight" or any mention that you can't have it change it's direction. Only that it will blossom at that point you specified when you cast the spell. It even mentions what to do if you want it to go through small holes which implies that you can send it places you can't see.
Again, I think the key questions are:
1) Does AMF block line of effect?
2) What happens when a magic effect transects the AMF on it's way towards a target beyond the field?
Does scorching ray hit the field, is suppressed for the width of the field, and then reemerges on the other side? Assuming of course that the target is on the other side, and not within the field. Similarly with a magic missle, can it hit someone on the other side of an AMF? I always envisioned MM as not necessarily following a straight line.
Where does it say you can't?
From the Magic Chapter, under Aiming a Spell:
In Effect paragraph: You must designate the location where these things (spread) are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it.
In Spread sub-paragraph: You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect.
In Line of Effect paragraph: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
In Area paragraph: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread.
Line of effect is very clear: you must have for any target of a spell or space to create an effect. It is also clear that it is a straight line. A curve is not straight.
Typically rules only specify things you can't do, especially for a game that takes place in your mind and is really only limited by your imagination and the rules.
Perhaps you mean laws? Rules codify how something works, laws typically involve forbidding actions (and consequences for violating them). You would be hard pressed to find examples of this in Pathfinder. A common joke is that the rules don't say I can't take actions when dead. Which is true, but it is generally understood that dead means no actions. Nothing in spells or fireball implies you can curve or turn the line of effect.
As an example of an ability that CAN do such a thing and states as much, I refer you to the Kineticist Snake Wild Talent: You have fine control over your kinetic blast, allowing you to alter its path to avoid obstacles. You can trace out any path no more than 120 feet long for your blast, potentially allowing you to avoid cover (even total cover). You can choose a path that leads into squares you cannot see.
Can you spells thematically twist and curve? Sure, nothing preventing that, assuming the initial targeting is by the rules. I love the idea of the arcing barrage of magic missle spells. But only after line of effect is confirmed.
Regarding the main thread point, I think since a fireball bead can detonate by striking something early, it has a small physical mass. A magic projectile launched through the AMF looses its powers while in, but doesn't drop to the floor instantly either. It travels through, resuming power at the other edge. I would rule a fireball bead travels through. If it strikes while in the AMF, it explodes as normal, but all of that is supressed by the AMF (which if it suppresses the origin point of the spell, the whole effect is supppressed). If it travels through, it "re-powers" on the other side and continues as normal.
Just my take on the OP.
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You need a line of effect. In pathfinder, lines are straight.You need line of effect to the point of origin, and line of effect is defined as a straight, unobstructed line from you to the point of origin.I may have gone about it the wrong way (magic rules are kinda poorly worded) but I still believe it can curve. The spell originates at your fingertip (per the spell description) then travels to the "spreads" point of origin in an unspecified manner. Is there a straight line from you to your fingertip? Your line of effect is then established. Now if you want to it to do barrel rolls while on it's way there or turn left down a hallway then I can't see why not. Plus it's cooler that way.
No. The line of effect isn't from you to your finger (still you). The point of origin of a spell is where the burst or spread comes from. The point you choose the fireball to explode at. You don't need line of effect from you (the rest of you) to you (the end of your finger). That is stupid. You need line of effect from you to the point the fireball explodes (the point of origin).
If the end of your finger was the point of origin, you would have to measure from there to determine what creatures were affected by the fireball, which would always have to include you. The spells range would mean nothing then. However, if the point of origin is not your finger, but where the fireball explodes (which is how the rules actually work), then the rules work fine.