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What makes you think it might be?
You wouldn't normally see someone asking whether X was Y without having something to base it on.
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Vital Strike wrote: Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack twice and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. Vital Strike is not precision damage.
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Nefreet wrote: What makes you think it might be?
You wouldn't normally see someone asking whether X was Y without having something to base it on.
It's come up a couple of times. The argument is usually based on the name, and the idea of whether one is attempting to, e.g., strike an ooze "in the vitals" (clearly not possible) or "with great vitality" (clearly not a problem).
Think of it in this way. Vital Strike does not strike ones vital, but when all hope are lost, swings your blade swiftly multiple times no longer make the difference. You give all your focus, hope and dreams into that one vital moment, that one strike. That vital moment will determine the outcome of this battle. That's why it called vital strike. It is vital to everything, you put everything into that point.
I wish you can make Vital Strike with any single attack like charge without any stupid, unbalanced feat tax. It would make it more awesome.
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blahpers wrote: Nefreet wrote: What makes you think it might be? It's come up a couple of times. The argument is usually based on the name PC#1: "Hey, Hal, why ya got a sack full of pistols?"
PC#2: "I use 'em as ammunition. Way cheaper to enchant 'em that way."
PC#1: *scratches head in puzzlement* "You don't use bullets?"
PC#2: *takes out a strip of leather, loops it around a pistol, and twirls it over his head* "Nope. I'm a Gun-slinger."
It's a border case. It's not precision damage, but there are quite a few monsters that say "vital strike, precision damage or sneak attack".
It's not precision damage otherwise it wouldn't need the specific callout, but it's similar enough that it sometimes gets packaged together. Not every time though. I suspect authors aren't all on the same page about what it represents.
Plain text reading of the rules, it isn't precision damage - because it doesn't say anywhere that it is.
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Ascalaphus wrote: It's a border case. It's not precision damage, but there are quite a few monsters that say "vital strike, precision damage or sneak attack". There are?
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Rysky wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: It's a border case. It's not precision damage, but there are quite a few monsters that say "vital strike, precision damage or sneak attack". There are? Vital Strike has gotten enough of a shaft as is. What monsters are immune to Vital Strike?
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The Mad Comrade wrote: Rysky wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: It's a border case. It's not precision damage, but there are quite a few monsters that say "vital strike, precision damage or sneak attack". There are? Vital Strike has gotten enough of a shaft as is. What monsters are immune to Vital Strike? Yeah, that'd be like saying a monster is immune to the extra damage from a person under the effects of enlarge person, just kinda "huh?".
Not saying there isn't a monster that isn't immune, I just find it odd if there was.
Oops. I must have been up too late last night. There's no actual monsters like that. What I was thinking of is this line from full-automatic fire in the Technology Guide:
Technology Guide > Automatic fire wrote: Each attack roll takes a -2 penalty, and its damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Several robots and the WWI rifle from Reign of Winter also have that line.
It doesn't go so far as to make them the same thing - the common denominator is that they're things you do to single specific targets/enemies.
Ah, okies.
Well that further proves the point that it's not Precision damage if it is always differentiated from precision damage like that.
They live in the same neighborhood but aren't roommates.
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... which pretty much means nothing.
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Ascalaphus wrote: It's a border case. It's not precision damage, but there are quite a few monsters that say "vital strike, precision damage or sneak attack". I think they say "critcal hits" rather than "vital strike." I don't know of any monsters with resistance to vital strike.
Now that I think about it, the same argument that vital strike ought to be precision damage because it hits an opponent's vitals could also be used to say that critical hits are precision damage because it hits an opponent's critical areas. In fact, since all attacks require an attack roll, they all involve trying to hit an opponent where it will hurt, so everything is precision damage!
In reality, D&D and Pathfinder wanted good names for particular attacks, such as Power Attack, and the wording was chosen for drama rather than precision.
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Nefreet wrote: blahpers wrote: Nefreet wrote: What makes you think it might be? It's come up a couple of times. The argument is usually based on the name PC#1: "Hey, Hal, why ya got a sack full of pistols?"
PC#2: "I use 'em as ammunition. Way cheaper to enchant 'em that way."
PC#1: *scratches head in puzzlement* "You don't use bullets?"
PC#2: *takes out a strip of leather, loops it around a pistol, and twirls it over his head* "Nope. I'm a Gun-slinger." Throwing your gun always works.
Knight who says Meh wrote: Nefreet wrote: blahpers wrote: Nefreet wrote: What makes you think it might be? It's come up a couple of times. The argument is usually based on the name PC#1: "Hey, Hal, why ya got a sack full of pistols?"
PC#2: "I use 'em as ammunition. Way cheaper to enchant 'em that way."
PC#1: *scratches head in puzzlement* "You don't use bullets?"
PC#2: *takes out a strip of leather, loops it around a pistol, and twirls it over his head* "Nope. I'm a Gun-slinger." Throwing your gun always works. Heh, I should have asked my GM if I could put returning on my pistolero's weapon back before I hit the infinite ammo stage of his career.
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Mathmuse wrote: Now that I think about it, the same argument that vital strike ought to be precision damage because it hits an opponent's vitals could also be used to say that critical hits are precision damage because it hits an opponent's critical areas. In fact, since all attacks require an attack roll, they all involve trying to hit an opponent where it will hurt, so everything is precision damage! It's never been clear to me why critical hits weren't precision damage, to be honest. The strained way in which all precision-like abilities state that they don't crit always seemed to be begging the question to me.
How come precision-based classes always get encouraged to use weapons with high crit ranges, that they get limited benefit out of?
I think there's a fundamental error somewhere there.
Ascalaphus wrote: Mathmuse wrote: Now that I think about it, the same argument that vital strike ought to be precision damage because it hits an opponent's vitals could also be used to say that critical hits are precision damage because it hits an opponent's critical areas. In fact, since all attacks require an attack roll, they all involve trying to hit an opponent where it will hurt, so everything is precision damage! It's never been clear to me why critical hits weren't precision damage, to be honest. The strained way in which all precision-like abilities state that they don't crit always seemed to be begging the question to me.
How come precision-based classes always get encouraged to use weapons with high crit ranges, that they get limited benefit out of?
I think there's a fundamental error somewhere there. think of crits as a more powerful hit instead of a hit to a squishy part of an enemy
Ascalaphus wrote:
It's never been clear to me why critical hits weren't precision damage, to be honest. The strained way in which all precision-like abilities state that they don't crit always seemed to be begging the question to me.
How come precision-based classes always get encouraged to use weapons with high crit ranges, that they get limited benefit out of?
I think there's a fundamental error somewhere there.
There are similarities, however, there is one crucial difference between precision damage and critical hits. Crits are governed mostly by luck (though some steps can be taken to widen one's chances) while precision damage generally isn't. You can get lucky and hit someone's vitals even if you can't see them - that's a crit. Precision damage is somewhat similar but not governed by luck, just by intentional use of an ability, which, for example, is why you can't use precision damage against something you can't see.
Lady-J wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: Mathmuse wrote: Now that I think about it, the same argument that vital strike ought to be precision damage because it hits an opponent's vitals could also be used to say that critical hits are precision damage because it hits an opponent's critical areas. In fact, since all attacks require an attack roll, they all involve trying to hit an opponent where it will hurt, so everything is precision damage! It's never been clear to me why critical hits weren't precision damage, to be honest. The strained way in which all precision-like abilities state that they don't crit always seemed to be begging the question to me.
How come precision-based classes always get encouraged to use weapons with high crit ranges, that they get limited benefit out of?
I think there's a fundamental error somewhere there. think of crits as a more powerful hit instead of a hit to a squishy part of an enemy Except creatures that are immune to critical hits aren't immune to 'more powerful' hits (STR damage, Power Attack damage, etc...), but they often are also immune to precision damage.
_Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: Ascalaphus wrote: Mathmuse wrote: Now that I think about it, the same argument that vital strike ought to be precision damage because it hits an opponent's vitals could also be used to say that critical hits are precision damage because it hits an opponent's critical areas. In fact, since all attacks require an attack roll, they all involve trying to hit an opponent where it will hurt, so everything is precision damage! It's never been clear to me why critical hits weren't precision damage, to be honest. The strained way in which all precision-like abilities state that they don't crit always seemed to be begging the question to me.
How come precision-based classes always get encouraged to use weapons with high crit ranges, that they get limited benefit out of?
I think there's a fundamental error somewhere there. think of crits as a more powerful hit instead of a hit to a squishy part of an enemy Except creatures that are immune to critical hits aren't immune to 'more powerful' hits (STR damage, Power Attack damage, etc...), but they often are also immune to precision damage. more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit
Lady-J wrote: more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit Repeating the comparison doesn't mean it makes any more sense when you consider that creatures immune to that sort of additional 'momentum' aren't immune to the additional momentum from, say, having a high STR. And yet, those creatures are often also immune to precision damage.
_Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit Repeating the comparison doesn't mean it makes any more sense when you consider that creatures immune to that sort of additional 'momentum' aren't immune to the additional momentum from, say, having a high STR. And yet, those creatures are often also immune to precision damage. momentum and force are two very different things
Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit Repeating the comparison doesn't mean it makes any more sense when you consider that creatures immune to that sort of additional 'momentum' aren't immune to the additional momentum from, say, having a high STR. And yet, those creatures are often also immune to precision damage. momentum and force are two very different things They are not 'very different things', they are directly related in fact. Force is the time derivative of momentum.
Stop trying to equate critical hits with 'more momentum'. It makes no sense considering the immunities that exist, and the crit multipliers on certain weapons. It just confuses the issue.
Monsters that are immune to critical hits are often immune to precision damage, and vice versa. This doesn't mean that critical hits ARE precision damage, but they sure share a lot in common.
_Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit Repeating the comparison doesn't mean it makes any more sense when you consider that creatures immune to that sort of additional 'momentum' aren't immune to the additional momentum from, say, having a high STR. And yet, those creatures are often also immune to precision damage. momentum and force are two very different things They are not 'very different things', they are directly related in fact. Force is the time derivative of momentum.
Stop trying to equate critical hits with 'more momentum'. It makes no sense considering the immunities that exist, and the crit multipliers on certain weapons. It just confuses the issue.
Monsters that are immune to critical hits are often immune to precision damage, and vice versa. This doesn't mean that critical hits ARE precision damage, but they sure share a lot in common. force is the amount of energy put into the swing by you momentum the amount of force put into the swing from external forces so while related they are not the same thing, there are also creatures that are immune to one or the other or vulnerable to just one
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No, force is not energy, force is the time derivative of momentum, as I already stated. Granted, force is related to energy, just as force is related to momentum, but force is far closer to momentum than energy (and energy is closer to momentum than force). Dude, unless you do physics, stop trying to make up this stuff.
How many creatures are immune to both critical hits and precision damage, and how many are just immune to one or the other?
No, vital strike is not precision damage as in VS description it's not mentioned anywhere for it to be precision damage.
Basically a character with Vital Strike is someone able to cause a tremendous amount of damage with a single swing of his weapon, and that's all there is to it.
Lady J, I think you just need to call it a night.
No matter what you say, Rules as Written , critical hits are hitting a vital organ. Not getting lucky and putting more force in the swing.
If you want to play your game different, fine. It is your game. This isn't your game and we are talkimg about paizo rules here. This forum is literally just for asking questions about Paizo rules.
_Ozy_ wrote: No, force is not energy, force is the time derivative of momentum, as I already stated. Granted, force is related to energy, just as force is related to momentum, but force is far closer to momentum than energy (and energy is closer to momentum than force). Dude, unless you do physics, stop trying to make up this stuff.
How many creatures are immune to both critical hits and precision damage, and how many are just immune to one or the other?
cant remember off the top of my head for immunity but robots have vulnerability to cits but are not vulnerable to sneak attack dmg or other forums of precision dmg so that right there proves they aren't the same thing
Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: No, force is not energy, force is the time derivative of momentum, as I already stated. Granted, force is related to energy, just as force is related to momentum, but force is far closer to momentum than energy (and energy is closer to momentum than force). Dude, unless you do physics, stop trying to make up this stuff.
How many creatures are immune to both critical hits and precision damage, and how many are just immune to one or the other?
cant remember off the top of my head for immunity but robots have vulnerability to cits but are not vulnerable to sneak attack dmg or other forums of precision dmg so that right there proves they aren't the same thing Nobody is claiming that they are exactly the same, I'm asking how many creatures are immune to both vs. one or the other.
If 99% of creatures are always immune to both, that should tell you something.
We never said the critical hits = precision damage. Just that anything immune to precision damage is usually immune to critical hit's and the reverse. They are treated the same for a large portion of the game.
I also learned that things can have a vulnerability to critical hits though, which is interesting.
Vital strike damage may be additional weapon damage or untyped damage, but it is not precision damage.
_Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: No, force is not energy, force is the time derivative of momentum, as I already stated. Granted, force is related to energy, just as force is related to momentum, but force is far closer to momentum than energy (and energy is closer to momentum than force). Dude, unless you do physics, stop trying to make up this stuff.
How many creatures are immune to both critical hits and precision damage, and how many are just immune to one or the other?
cant remember off the top of my head for immunity but robots have vulnerability to cits but are not vulnerable to sneak attack dmg or other forums of precision dmg so that right there proves they aren't the same thing Nobody is claiming that they are exactly the same, I'm asking how many creatures are immune to both vs. one or the other.
If 99% of creatures are always immune to both, that should tell you something.
Edit: where does it say constructs/robots are immune to sneak attacks? not immune robots and specifically robots are vulnerable to crits there may be more but i haven't gone over the monster lists in a long while also vital strike dmg can be multiplied on a crit with the right feats which prove its not precision dmg
SorrySleeping wrote: We never said the critical hits = precision damage. Just that anything immune to precision damage is usually immune to critical hit's and the reverse. They are treated the same for a large portion of the game.
I also learned that things can have a vulnerability to critical hits though, which is interesting.
i have yet to come across something that's vulnerable to precision dmg though all though that's not to say there isn't one its just i have yet to find one
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Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit Repeating the comparison doesn't mean it makes any more sense when you consider that creatures immune to that sort of additional 'momentum' aren't immune to the additional momentum from, say, having a high STR. And yet, those creatures are often also immune to precision damage. momentum and force are two very different things They are not 'very different things', they are directly related in fact. Force is the time derivative of momentum.
Stop trying to equate critical hits with 'more momentum'. It makes no sense considering the immunities that exist, and the crit multipliers on certain weapons. It just confuses the issue.
Monsters that are immune to critical hits are often immune to precision damage, and vice versa. This doesn't mean that critical hits ARE precision damage, but they sure share a lot in common. force is the amount of energy put into the swing by you momentum the amount of force put into the swing from external forces so while related they are not the same thing, there are also creatures that are immune to one or the other or vulnerable to just one As a former physics teacher, I find this statement excruciatingly painful.
Gisher wrote: Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Lady-J wrote: more powerful hits as in you some how managed to get more momentum into the strike and it did more damage as opposed to just adding more flat out dmg to a hit Repeating the comparison doesn't mean it makes any more sense when you consider that creatures immune to that sort of additional 'momentum' aren't immune to the additional momentum from, say, having a high STR. And yet, those creatures are often also immune to precision damage. momentum and force are two very different things They are not 'very different things', they are directly related in fact. Force is the time derivative of momentum.
Stop trying to equate critical hits with 'more momentum'. It makes no sense considering the immunities that exist, and the crit multipliers on certain weapons. It just confuses the issue.
Monsters that are immune to critical hits are often immune to precision damage, and vice versa. This doesn't mean that critical hits ARE precision damage, but they sure share a lot in common. force is the amount of energy put into the swing by you momentum the amount of force put into the swing from external forces so while related they are not the same thing, there are also creatures that are immune to one or the other or vulnerable to just one As a former physics teacher, I find this statement excruciatingly painful. which statement? all of them or only the last one? or some of them?
Lady-J wrote: SorrySleeping wrote: We never said the critical hits = precision damage. Just that anything immune to precision damage is usually immune to critical hit's and the reverse. They are treated the same for a large portion of the game.
I also learned that things can have a vulnerability to critical hits though, which is interesting.
i have yet to come across something that's vulnerable to precision dmg though all though that's not to say there isn't one its just i have yet to find one You realize that if critical hits were a type of precision damage, being vulnerable to critical hits, but not sneak attacks, would be perfectly reasonable.
Both fire and cold are types of 'energy' damage, and yet one can be vulnerable to fire without being vulnerable to cold, or energy damage in general.
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John Murdock wrote: which statement? all of them or only the last one? or some of them? likely this:
Quote: force is the amount of energy put into the swing by you momentum the amount of force put into the swing from external forces so while related they are not the same thing, there are also creatures that are immune to one or the other or vulnerable to just one It is so nonsensical that, to quote another famous physicist, it's not even wrong.
Since the original topic is all but closed:
Lady-J, using your interpretation, why are oozes and elementals immune to critical hits?
Edit: Enhyphenated
blahpers wrote: Since the original topic is all but closed:
Lady-J, using your interpretation, why are oozes and elementals immune to critical hits?
Edit: Enhyphenated
because their forums would displace themselves in the wake of the attack sort of like how the shields in dune protect people from projectiles(anything moving to fast is stopped but slower objects can get though) but in a slightly different way.
Doesn't matter what the reasons behind crits and precision is. They are treated differently, and enemies are usually immune to both anyways.
It's a discussion that serves no purpose as whatever the result of the conversation the rules have them as different.
Just like vital strike and precision.
Cavall wrote: Doesn't matter what the reasons behind crits and precision is. They are treated differently, and enemies are usually immune to both anyways.
It's a discussion that serves no purpose as whatever the result of the conversation the rules have them as different.
Just like vital strike and precision.
Please do not dismiss others' purpose as nonexistent. Questions regarding rules intent are appropriate for this forum and help inform other rulings that are less clear-cut.
Intent? They are treated different because the rules say they are. It is treated as non existent because that's what it is.
If you've a problem with the dismissal of others, try saying the same about posts that have nothing but face palms rather than an attempt to keep the topic on track.
The ruling is clear cut as a razor blade.
Cavall wrote: Intent? They are treated different because the rules say they are. It is treated as non existent because that's what it is.
If you've a problem with the dismissal of others, try saying the same about posts that have nothing but face palms rather than an attempt to keep the topic on track.
The ruling is clear cut as a razor blade.
If you knew a creature was immune to sneak attacks, but didn't know if it was immune to critical hits, what would be your guess?
Cavall wrote: Intent? They are treated different because the rules say they are. It is treated as non existent because that's what it is.
If you've a problem with the dismissal of others, try saying the same about posts that have nothing but face palms rather than an attempt to keep the topic on track.
The ruling is clear cut as a razor blade.
*facepalm*
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