How does multiclassing affect saving throws and BAB? For example, a 5th level bard has +3 BAB, +1 Fort, +4 Ref, and +4 Will, not including ability mods. Instead of advancing the bard to level 6, the player takes a level in Monk, which has +0 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref, and +2 Will.
Would those stack for +3 BAB, +3 Fort, +6 Ref, and +6 Will?
Thank you.
Yes, that's correct. You simply add whatever base saves you get for the appropriate levels of classes you have.
As you can imagine, that can give some weird results. With the right (or wrong) multiclassing, a single save can sky-rocket while the other saves and/or your BAB stays low. You can also do some shenanigans, like gaining early access to item mastery feats like this one. I think it's a bit cheesy (though I suppose many disagree).
Anyway, with Pathfinder: Unchained came an alternative system called Fractional base bonuses. It involves a bit of additional math but gives smoother progression of saves and BAB for multiclassed characters. You can ask your GM if this alternate system is in place in your campaign (or suggest that it should be).
Fractional base bonuses, got it. Thanks.
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As you can imagine, that can give some weird results. With the right (or wrong) multiclassing, a single save can sky-rocket while the other saves and/or your BAB stays low. You can also do some shenanigans, like gaining early access to item mastery feats like this one. I think it's a bit cheesy (though I suppose many disagree).
PFS leadership apparently agrees with you;
When qualifying for and calculating the benefits of an item mastery feat, a PC uses the base Fortitude save bonus from only one of his classes.
As you can imagine, that can give some weird results. With the right (or wrong) multiclassing, a single save can sky-rocket while the other saves and/or your BAB stays low. You can also do some shenanigans, like gaining early access to item mastery feats like this one. I think it's a bit cheesy (though I suppose many disagree).
PFS leadership apparently agrees with you;
When qualifying for and calculating the benefits of an item mastery feat, a PC uses the base Fortitude save bonus from only one of his classes.
Apparently, I missed that. And I know I'm not the only one. Nor is it (solely) a d20pfsrd problem, I've read the WMH but I must have skimmed that part.
Thanks for the correction!
As you can imagine, that can give some weird results. With the right (or wrong) multiclassing, a single save can sky-rocket while the other saves and/or your BAB stays low. You can also do some shenanigans, like gaining early access to item mastery feats like this one. I think it's a bit cheesy (though I suppose many disagree).
The Dimension Door one is an extreme example - the Fortitude requirement is high and even-numbered, making multiclassing extremely helpful here. And (I think) it's the only level 4 spell you can acquire with base Fortitude 6.
Yes, it's cheesy: You are tough as bones due to your mixed experiences, so you can force magic items to do your bidding? Hmm. But you still need a fitting item (maybe have to skip another helpful one in favor of it), you spend a feat on it, most item mastery feats don't scale that well and the necessary multiclassing has the tendency to backfire (unless you are very careful).
So as a GM I wouldn't see a problem here, rather the chance for a new way to develop PCs.
As you can imagine, that can give some weird results. With the right (or wrong) multiclassing, a single save can sky-rocket while the other saves and/or your BAB stays low. You can also do some shenanigans, like gaining early access to item mastery feats like this one. I think it's a bit cheesy (though I suppose many disagree).
PFS leadership apparently agrees with you;
When qualifying for and calculating the benefits of an item mastery feat, a PC uses the base Fortitude save bonus from only one of his classes.
Not sure how i feel about that are they considered that bad that early access to them is so much better than early access to other feats with a saving throw prereq?
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If you stack paladin, bloodrager and fighter, you could access a feat in 3 levels instead of the 8 you'd need using any of these single-classed. That does smell like an exploit.
As for the item to activate it - the cheapest I could find quickly was a Ring of Sustenance, which uses Create Food & Drink and costs only 2500gp.
But you still need a fitting item (maybe have to skip another helpful one in favor of it), you spend a feat on it
The Iron Caster build ignores those two problems. Martial versatility (through dip in Brawler or one of a few archetypes) or the Barrom brawler feat means you don't have to spend your feat slots on niched Item mastery feats that becomes obsolet when you level. Advanced Weapon Training Item Mastery means you can use any magic weapon.
This guide can tell you more about it, but it, like me, has missed the rule that Ascalaphus quotes.
Is that a PFS rule? It's one of the first 'PFS errata' I actually wouldn't mind implementing in home games. I'm just glad they didn't make it a game-wide thing like they've done in the past.
If you stack paladin, bloodrager and fighter, you could access a feat in 3 levels instead of the 8 you'd need using any of these single-classed. That does smell like an exploit.
As for the item to activate it - the cheapest I could find quickly was a Ring of Sustenance, which uses Create Food & Drink and costs only 2500gp.
4th level at the earliest you still need 4 ranks in UMD. If we assume you can bonus feat it with level 2 fighter then yes 4 levels earlier than a single classed character with roughly 1/2 your wealth in that ring. Does that feat make you better than a level four any of those things?
Heck since you need 4th i guess you could go 2 and 2 is that really such an op combo that I might be a 2nd level Fighter 2nd level bloodrager that this one feat is a gamebreaker before 8th level?
But you still need a fitting item (maybe have to skip another helpful one in favor of it), you spend a feat on itThe Iron Caster build ignores those two problems. Martial versatility (through dip in Brawler or one of a few archetypes) or the Barrom brawler feat means you don't have to spend your feat slots on niched Item mastery feats that becomes obsolet when you level. Advanced Weapon Training Item Mastery means you can use any magic weapon.
This guide can tell you more about it, but it, like me, has missed the rule that Ascalaphus quotes.
Hmm, that's a good point. These builds shine at level 5 or 6, for little cost. Fighter (weapon master) 4 with a level 1 dip in brawler seems like the most straight forward choice, sacrificing just a bit of fighter progression.
A GM might decide that activating an item costs an use of Martial Flexibility, as for combat feats (which Advanced Combat Training is, while the item mastery feats are not). Then you are suddenly down from 4 uses/day to 2, at level 5. Increasing the uses per day of Martial Flexibility is expensive, and any increment will be reduced by this double-taxing.
Hmm, that's a good point. These builds shine at level 5 or 6, for little cost. Fighter (weapon master) 4 with a level 1 dip in brawler seems like the most straight forward choice, sacrificing just a bit of fighter progression.But you still need a fitting item (maybe have to skip another helpful one in favor of it), you spend a feat on itThe Iron Caster build ignores those two problems. Martial versatility (through dip in Brawler or one of a few archetypes) or the Barrom brawler feat means you don't have to spend your feat slots on niched Item mastery feats that becomes obsolet when you level. Advanced Weapon Training Item Mastery means you can use any magic weapon.
This guide can tell you more about it, but it, like me, has missed the rule that Ascalaphus quotes.
As Ascalaphus pointed out, the Brawler dip doesn't help you qualify for Item mastery feats (in fact, it hurts). Unless, of course, you house rule that the base Fort save of different classes do stack for the purposes of Item mastery feats.
I think (without experience) that the Iron caster starts to shine as late as 9th level. With straight fighter levels, you've now got Weapon Training 2 and can select Abundant Tactics, meaning you can use Barrom Brawler 3 times every day. But I might be wrong, perhaps the powers of the Item mastery feats aren't that impressive at level 9.
A GM might decide that activating an item costs an use of Martial Flexibility, as for combat feats (which Advanced Combat Training is, while the item mastery feats are not). Then you are suddenly down from 4 uses/day to 2, at level 5. Increasing the uses per day of Martial Flexibility is expensive, and any increment will be reduced by this double-taxing.
Now you're way into house ruling territory ...
Hmm, that's a good point. These builds shine at level 5 or 6, for little cost. Fighter (weapon master) 4 with a level 1 dip in brawler seems like the most straight forward choice, sacrificing just a bit of fighter progression.
As Ascalaphus pointed out, the Brawler dip doesn't help you qualify for Item mastery feats (in fact, it hurts). Unless, of course, you house rule that the base Fort save of different classes do stack for the purposes of Item mastery feats.
Umm... they do stack only in PFS is there a rule for these feats that you can only choose one class from which to check fort save.
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Personally, I think fractional bonuses should just be the correct way of doing it when multiclassing.
It prevents people from accidentally screwing themselves over by multiclassing, and also prevents people from abusing other things.
As Ascalaphus pointed out, the Brawler dip doesn't help you qualify for Item mastery feats (in fact, it hurts). Unless, of course, you house rule that the base Fort save of different classes do stack for the purposes of Item mastery feats.
Per the base rules it's just your fort save, so it speeds it up.
Only PFS has the rule (which is a good idea) that you can only use one class.
Umm... they do stack only in PFS is there a rule for these feats that you can only choose one class from which to check fort save.
I retract all my previous statements and claim the opposite.
Or, to put it another way, I totally missed that it was an PFS rule only. Thought I had missed something in Weapon Masters Handbook. Man, am I confused today (or is it everyday?).
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Is that a PFS rule? It's one of the first 'PFS errata' I actually wouldn't mind implementing in home games. I'm just glad they didn't make it a game-wide thing like they've done in the past.whats wrong with letting martials have nice things?
They can have nice things, they can even have nice things that normally belong to casters. But they shouldn't get those things three levels earlier than the first caster.
there are several abilities martials can get way more than just 3 levels b4 casters this one hardly seems worthy of saying no you cant do that cuz casters cant do that at this levelThey can have nice things, they can even have nice things that normally belong to casters. But they shouldn't get those things three levels earlier than the first caster.Is that a PFS rule? It's one of the first 'PFS errata' I actually wouldn't mind implementing in home games. I'm just glad they didn't make it a game-wide thing like they've done in the past.whats wrong with letting martials have nice things?
Which other spells are martials getting 3 levels before 9th level casters?
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Wow, what did I start? I mostly just asked so my non-caster characters like my monk and cavalier could dip a couple levels in bard to get access to some basic spells like flare and cure light wounds.
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i said abilities not spells but seeing as how things can also obtain ddoor as an sla getting ddoor as a spell by manipulating an item doesn't seem all that out of placeWhich other spells are martials getting 3 levels before 9th level casters?there are several abilities martials can get way more than just 3 levels b4 casters this one hardly seems worthy of saying no you cant do that cuz casters cant do that at this levelThey can have nice things, they can even have nice things that normally belong to casters. But they shouldn't get those things three levels earlier than the first caster.Is that a PFS rule? It's one of the first 'PFS errata' I actually wouldn't mind implementing in home games. I'm just glad they didn't make it a game-wide thing like they've done in the past.whats wrong with letting martials have nice things?
Well what other ways are there to get Dimension Door?
- Arcanist Dimensional Slide (l1) - very short hops, can't take anyone with you. Not really comparable.
- Conjuration(Teleportation) school Shift (wizard l1) - very short hops, can't take anyone with you. Not really comparable.
- Abundant Step (chained monk l12, unchained monk l8)
- Conjuration school Dimensional Step (wizard l8)
- Travel domain Dimensional Hop (cleric l8)
Pretty consistent: Dimension Door-like abilities come online at level 8.
Our group uses the Fractional Base Bonuses as described in Unchained (actually, we carried them over from 3.5's Unearthed Arcana), and they seem to work more as things are intended. We also added the one-time +2 to favored saves to PrC's if the character didn't already have it.
The Shadowdancer Shadow Jump ability is Dimension-Door-ish.
Earliest anyone can get that is character level 9, though.
Nope
Update 10/16/13: In any case, you cannot use rule elements from a prestige class to meet the requirements of that prestige class.
Update 10/16/13: New ruling: You cannot use retraining to replace a base class level with a prestige class level.
posted October 2013 | back to top
Read the last update line you cannot retrain any base class levels into prestige class levels now.
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synth summoner level 6 as an sla mutant creature template 3/day ddoor could have at level 2 any race with either ddoor or greater teleport as an at will sla lowest i think would be level 4 some at 5,6 and 7
Those are:
- An archetype Paizo has banned in PFS because it was perceived to be unbalanced.
- A monster template. Monster templates are not balanced for use by PCs, but for use against PCs.
Those arguments don't convince me.
The general game balance is that DimDoor comes online at level 7-8, and it's expensive at that level.
synth summoner level 6 as an sla mutant creature template 3/day ddoor could have at level 2 any race with either ddoor or greater teleport as an at will sla lowest i think would be level 4 some at 5,6 and 7Those are:
- An archetype Paizo has banned in PFS because it was perceived to be unbalanced.
- A monster template. Monster templates are not balanced for use by PCs, but for use against PCs.
Those arguments don't convince me.
The general game balance is that DimDoor comes online at level 7-8, and it's expensive at that level.
Lady-J's group plays a very different version of Pathfinder than a lot of groups, and it sounds like they have a blast. Unfortunately, it does sometimes lead to misunderstandings - like LJ's belief that many classes (paladins, for instance) can only be viable on a 35+ point buy.
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because you cant afford to dump any stats as to be a proper paladin you actually need modifiers and not penalties in your stats and in all honesty 35 point buy should be the minimum point buy instead of 10 point buy or switch it so point buy is every thing starts at 10 and you can buy 1 stat increase for 1 point so an 18 would cost 8 points a 7 would give you 3 extra points and keep the point buy totals the same
I Agree. To RP a proper paladin, as in a a walking symbol of goodness, having all the stats above average really does fit the role better.
Though that said, with high CHA, you can use divine grace to substitute for low saves in other areas. I have a halfling paladin I've been running for PFS: 12, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16. Thanks to Divine Grace, I end up with decent saves, but my melee damage is terrible. And I really don't think I'm a proper paladin.
For PFS, best one I've found is the Oath against Undeath, which removes my ability to detect evil - this has proven to the best option for RPing with pathfinders, since I'm not aware when my other party members are evil or have evil auras, which really helps me get along with the other, less moral pathfinders (which is almost all of them).
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isn't pfs the one who says evil is bad wrong fun and bans evil outright
Player characters can't be evil in PFS and are banned outright. Animal Companions, Eidolons, Familiars, Phantoms, Drakes, Summoned Creatures and Animated Dead, are all permitted to be evil, provided their specific rules don't require something else. Players in PFS can also worship evil deities, which grants them an evil aura in the case of clerics, despite not having an evil alignment on the player character. Additionally, there are spells and archetypes to permit a player to detect as evil, despite not being evil. And there's no cap on casting evil spells (unless your class prevents it).
Beyond that, the limit on players making evil player characters, often functions more as alignment cap, rather than preventing them from role playing evil characters. But, yeah, offically no evil PC in PFS. Granted, you encounter lots of players that think killing every NPC and stealing everything is okay for neutral or good alignments.
I think, in reality, having the cap on evil alignments in PFS only serves to prevent players from understanding the alignment system and understanding what evil actions really are.
Player characters can't be evil in PFS and are banned outright.
Didn't they allow (or require?) evil characters in the Hell's Rebels AP? I thought I had read that PFS allowed that AP.
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its still banned in literally every other aspect so the point is moot
We got to this because of paladin talk. As a paladin in PFS, PCs (or their companions) in your party will often have evil auras, use evil spells, or perform actions that "should" get their alignment dropped to evil.
So far, my most successful PFS paladin took Oath against Undeath, which gives them no "detect evil" ability. This has proven very practical for getting along with PFS groups. Infernal Healing, for example, is an incredibly common PFS spell that seems to be used without reprocussions (as if it wasn't an evil spell).
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For better or worse, it has no serious repercussions. PFS does not track alignments from scenario to scenario.
That's the other end of the issue. A player can basically run an evil character in PFS, provided the GM doesn't adjust their alignment in that one session. You can start LG every session, then maim, steal, and cheat - as long as the GM doesn't make you that session, you are in the clear to start again, at LG next time. A horrible system for alignments to be taken seriously.
Though if your character does get their alignment dropped to evil during the session, that character is gone. I've never heard of this happening in PFS, but the local GMs joke about it. For PFS, you'd have to do something pretty outrageous to have your alignment dropped like this.