I've read that these feets do not stack, however in the description of ascetic strike it mentions monastic legacy as if they where meant for each other. So do they or do they not stack?....the build is monk3/magus17 btw
Ascetic strike
Your weapon strikes deal more damage than usual.
Prerequisite(s): Ascetic Form; Ascetic Style; Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon; base attack bonus +7 or monk level 7th.
Benefit(s): You can use the unarmed strike damage of a monk 4 levels lower than your character level (minimum 1st) instead of the base damage for the chosen weapon. Ascetic Strike functions in all other ways as the brawler’s close weapon mastery class feature.
In addition, you ignore the still mind class feature prerequisite for the Monastic Legacy feat
Monastic legacy
Prerequisite: Still mind class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage. This feat does not make levels in classes other than monk count toward any other monk class features.
Also i plan on investing in monk robes, and they increase my unarmed damage as if I where 5 lvls higher. So what's the small unarmed damage beyond lvl 20?
unarmed damage doesn't go beyond lv20.
Does it actually say that anywhere?
yes, the fact that the table stop and the damage is referenced from the table, not a formula.
So what happens to all the bonuses to the unarmed damage? They just stop existing?
A monk's US damage caps at lv20. So if you can effectively count as 20 sooner you reach the cap sooner. If you get over 20 then you use the highest possible value which is 20.
Okay but do they stack?
they don't interact at all.
one lets you sub the base damage of the weapon for a different value that isn't changed or modified by anything.
The other is giving you IUS damage and increasing that damage via robe.
Then why does it say
In addition, you ignore the still mind class feature prerequisite for the Monastic Legacy feat
Its misleading
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The text says:
You can use the unarmed strike damage of a monk 4 levels lower than your character level (minimum 1st) instead of the base damage for the chosen weapon.
This is not:
You can use your unarmed strike damage as if it was 4 levels lower for the chosen weapon.
Ascetic Strike's damage is only modified by your character level. The only time you'd need to worry is if you have a character level higher than 25.
Then why does it say
In addition, you ignore the still mind class feature prerequisite for the Monastic Legacy feat
Its misleading
It isn't misleading, but it is a bit complicated.
Let’s start simple and then add elements one at a time.
Basic
A medium-sized Monk 3/Magus 17 would normally deal 1d6 with their Unarmed Strikes because their Monk level is 3.
Add Ascetic Style Feats
Let’s imagine that they take the Ascetic Style Feats and make the Quarterstaff their chosen weapon. Because the character is 20th level they can deal 2d8 when using a Quarterstaff (the same damage as a 16th level Monk’s Unarmed Strikes). But that is only when using a Quarterstaff. If the character used their Unarmed Strikes, they would still deal 1d6.
Add Monastic Legacy
The Ascetic Strike Feat fulfills the Still Mind prerequisite for Monastic Legacy. This doesn’t matter here since this character will already have Still Mind from 3 levels of Monk, but skipping this prerequisite is great for builds that have fewer Monk levels. If this character takes Monastic Legacy their Unarmed Strike damage will be 1d10 as if they were an 11th level Monk (3 levels in Monk + (17 levels in Magus)/2). Note that their damage with a Quarterstaff will still be 2d8 because that damage only depends on the character level which is still 20.
Add the Monk’s Robe
This item adds 5 levels to the character's effective Monk Level when it comes to the damage from Unarmed Strikes. It does not add to their character level. Wearing the Robe, their Unarmed Strikes will now deal 2d8 (as if they were a 16th level Monk), and their Quarterstaff will still deal 2d8 because their character level is still 20.
I hope that helps.
From the game mastering chapter of the CRB:
Scaling Powers: Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
@Melkiador
Can you clarify which person and issue you are addressing with that quote?
Mostly just mentioning that pathfinder does have rules for abilities going past level 20. But I don't know if the monk unarmed strikes count as having "a set, increasing rate".
Mostly just mentioning that pathfinder does have rules for abilities going past level 20. But I don't know if the monk unarmed strikes count as having "a set, increasing rate".
Gotcha. In this case it doesn't matter since the build isn't going to exceed level 20 for anything.
We were talking about class abilities passing 20 though, which does apply here. If you get an ability above level 20, then those are the rules for that.
As was pointed out earlier the monks unarmed damage is not a formula. All the class abilities that are referred to in the section pertaining to going over 20th level state they increase at set rate.
Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk's attacks may be with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
Usually a monk's unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but he can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on his attack roll. He has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.
The monks unarmed damage is taken directly from the table. There is no formula or set increase. Therefore a 50th level monk’s damage is the same as a 20th level monk.
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Since this is in the realm of homebrew now I don't agree with Mysterious Stranger. If I were running I would allow the unarmed damage to keep climbing. Except for the first three levels of 1d6 every 4 levels thereafter the damage dice increases. 1d8 > 1d10 > 2d6 > 2d8 > 2d10... I would continue with three more levels of 2d10 > then at level 24 I would change dice to 3d6 for four levels > 3d8 > 3d10 > 4d6... etc.. The table has a set increase and to me, shows a clear progression starting at 4th level and every four levels thereafter that I can follow and enhance myself as a GM. Once again, this is all homebrew at this point and is solely the discretion of the GM.
Yes, it's pretty easy to derive the formula for the monk's US damage and let that scale past lv20. But "officially" it's set by the table and the table caps out at 20 so a monk's damage caps out then too.
3D10 is more damage than 4D6
16.5 vs 14 on average.
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I would agree except for the quote by Melkiador above. It states that
"Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate."
A paladin's smite evil is maxed out at 7/day per the description below.
"The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level."
So why specifically put that in the quote Melkiador provided if it cannot advance. It says to use the table to a max of seven times a day. The "official" rules present a contradiction.
When it comes to RPG's and "official" rules, unless you are doing something like PFS, there are rules but all rules are left to the GM to interpret and decide on and ultimately just to have fun.
Sorry for going off topic I know this is not what the OP was asking. :-)
I would agree except for the quote by Melkiador above. It states that
"Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate."
A paladin's smite evil is maxed out at 7/day per the description below.
"The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead or the next time the paladin rests and regains her uses of this ability. At 4th level, and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: Paladin, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level."
So why specifically put that in the quote Melkiador provided if it cannot advance. It says to use the table to a max of seven times a day. The "official" rules present a contradiction.
When it comes to RPG's and "official" rules, unless you are doing something like PFS, there are rules but all rules are left to the GM to interpret and decide on and ultimately just to have fun.
Sorry for going off topic I know this is not what the OP was asking. :-)
The smite's damage continue to scale off of level aka 'advance', meaning at lv25 it does 25 damage, it is capped on how many times you can do it.
To be clear, since this is the rules forum, the Pathfinder section on beyond 20th level specifically says that there are not Pathfinder rules for beyond 20th level.
Then it gives some guidelines for creating some homebrew rules for beyond 20th level, and in fact gives 2 different possible ideas for how that could work. One, which has been talked about above, is some basic ideas for making a level 21 fighter for example, and what you would do in that situation. The other suggestion is that 20th level is a hard limit on a class, but multiclassing to have more than 20 character levels is a possibility.
In any event, this section is specifically not 'rules' and shouldn't be read as such.
We were talking about class abilities passing 20 though, which does apply here. If you get an ability above level 20, then those are the rules for that.
I understand you, but in this particular build none of the class abilities will exceed level 20. The OP thought they would, but the relevant abilities don't actually stack.
To be clear, since this is the rules forum, the Pathfinder section on beyond 20th level specifically says that there are not Pathfinder rules for beyond 20th level.
Then it gives some guidelines for creating some homebrew rules for beyond 20th level, and in fact gives 2 different possible ideas for how that could work. One, which has been talked about above, is some basic ideas for making a level 21 fighter for example, and what you would do in that situation. The other suggestion is that 20th level is a hard limit on a class, but multiclassing to have more than 20 character levels is a possibility.
In any event, this section is specifically not 'rules' and shouldn't be read as such.
It doesn't say there are not rules, for going past 20, just that the classes don't describe it. It then tells you what happens when you pass level 20.
And then it tells you that you could cap things at 20. And that is listed more as an afterthought, instead of being a large block of rules text.
Multiclassing/Prestige Classes: The simplest way to progress beyond 20th level is to simply multiclass or take levels in a prestige class, in which case you gain all of the abilities of the new class level normally. This effectively treats 20th level as a hard limit for class level, but not as a hard limit for total character level.
The fact that this houserule "treats" 20th as a hard limit means that it is not intended to be a hard limit.
It doesn't say there are not rules, for going past 20, just that the classes don't describe it. It then tells you what happens when you pass level 20.
And then it tells you that you could cap things at 20. And that is listed more as an afterthought, instead of being a large block of rules text.
Multiclassing/Prestige Classes: The simplest way to progress beyond 20th level is to simply multiclass or take levels in a prestige class, in which case you gain all of the abilities of the new class level normally. This effectively treats 20th level as a hard limit for class level, but not as a hard limit for total character level.The fact that this houserule "treats" 20th as a hard limit means that it is not intended to be a hard limit.
Actually, I think you failed some reading comprehension here. A couple key lines from that section of the rulebook.
"Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms"
"you can use the following brief guidelines"
Seems pretty clear to me that they are saying they don't have rules for going past 20. In addition, they acknowledge that even these guidelines won't really work for more than a couple of levels at best.
As far as your 'treats' point. Adopting the houserule of you can have character levels past 20 but you have to multiclass to do that certainly does treat 20th level as a hard limit for a class. That fact doesn't provide any evidence that Paizo has published rules (rather than some guideline for houserules) for class levels beyond 20.
Rules and guidelines are used interchangeably all of the time in the rules. Even the block of text says it both ways having, "Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face."