I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor yes? An honest question I can't tell
That's the thing about my allusions and vague references.
You'll never see them coming.
Also they're only funny to me, but mostly you'll never see them coming.
I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor yes? An honest question I can't tellThat's the thing about my allusions and vague references.
You'll never see them coming.
Also they're only funny to me, but mostly you'll never see them coming.
Just like RAGELANCEPOUNCE!
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BARBARIAN CORDIALLY REQUEST SHOP OF PURSE OWNER 5 ACTION WHEEL WHERE EVERY COMMAND AM RAGELANCEPOUNCE.
BARBARIAN STOP DERAILING THREAD NOW.
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I'm assuming this is an attempt at humor yes? An honest question I can't tellThat's the thing about my allusions and vague references.
You'll never see them coming.
Also they're only funny to me, but mostly you'll never see them coming.
Go to bed.
Aren't you tired after today?@OP: Basically its a matter of rocket tag, if the Wizard goes first, its game over. There's just too many tools and the Tetori only has a single streamlined attack pattern that can be dealt with using Contingency. Reduce the levels and there might be a shot.
Depends on type optimization level. I think a well built, equal level tetori could take down most adventure printed wizards. Of course adventure printed wizards aren't the monstrosities that an evening of optimization and research could produce.
On the subject of contingencies, you get two. If they're tailored to counter a Tetori, great (for the wizard), otherwise, the Wizard might be in trouble.
On the subject of contingencies, you get two. If they're tailored to counter a Tetori, great (for the wizard), otherwise, the Wizard might be in trouble.
As per the OP, both combatants are designed to kill each other. The wizard knows he will facing a tetori, the tetori knows he will be facing a wizard.
Can a tetori deal with mirror image, contingency, or foresight? No?
Wizard wins hands down.
I always find the setups of the these things funny.
How does the tetori even get near the wizard in the first place?
Why isn't the wizard in his own personal demi-plane where the tetori can't find him.
I'm seriously wondering if monks have anyway of getting passed emergency force sphere?
I mean grapplers big thing is none lethal yes? Which does nothing to a wall of force and their fists can count as adamantium for DR but I don't think hardness counts as DR
If they don't have a way around that then it doesn't matter who wins initiative and it doesn't matter about contingencies
Yeah but in one full round action? They have to do 200 damage through 20 hardness in one full round action or the wizard gets to act even if he lost initiative. If a dwarf went all in on their FCB that probably works, otherwise I do see em going through it.
If the wiz gets to act then I think that's it he can time stop into any number of things or just cast prismatic sphere as you said.
If the wizard gets to act he just retreats to his private demiplane and comes back sometime latter with an army.
The wizard has so many options that basically I consider the tetori to have lost unless he can manage to beat initiative and kill the wizard in the 1st round. The wizard acting basically means he wins.
And with emergency force sphere it's hard to kill the wizard before he can act.
Can you cast emergency force sphere when flat-footed? Or are you prohibited from taking the action due to being unaware?
Well I mean there are loads of ways to make sure you don't die before you act or to make it not matter if you do contingencies and clones and Akashic form, I'm just kinda stuck on emergency force sphere because of how incredibly easy it is to use in this regard.
With the Foresight spell being flat-footed is a choice for a high level wizard, not a requirement.
That and the OP has since stated they start aware of each other 100ft apart so ... no surprise round
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Between Moment of Prescience and a scroll of glimpse of the Akashic, there is +34 right there.Diviners are easy to deal with. Get an Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls and you are immune to all nondetection effects.
Get high Stealth, which is countered by nothing, and sneak on the wiz.
The problem is divination wizards always get to go in the surprise round and get to add their class level to their initiative rolls.
Even if you don't know whats happening, you have a sort of spidey sense that tells you something is wrong. If the tetori doesn't win initiative, the wizard teleports away.
Basically, the tetori only wins if he can win initiative no matter the circumstances.
What the hell is this spell? 1 full minute of literal god-mode where you add your level to pretty much everything?
The caster grapples the Tetori into submission, the end.
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Please. Professional MageHunter, I got this.
*Reads thread*
Kill them at 1st level?
Between Moment of Prescience and a scroll of glimpse of the Akashic, there is +34 right there.Diviners are easy to deal with. Get an Iron Circlet of Guarded Souls and you are immune to all nondetection effects.
Get high Stealth, which is countered by nothing, and sneak on the wiz.
The problem is divination wizards always get to go in the surprise round and get to add their class level to their initiative rolls.
Even if you don't know whats happening, you have a sort of spidey sense that tells you something is wrong. If the tetori doesn't win initiative, the wizard teleports away.
Basically, the tetori only wins if he can win initiative no matter the circumstances.
What the hell is this spell? 1 full minute of literal god-mode where you add your level to pretty much everything?
The caster grapples the Tetori into submission, the end.
Wow.
I am so happy I got a chance to read that spell.
It is.
Well, a tetori can get past the EFS using dimensional dervish and punchgrabs, but can't do anything against the full complement of wizard hax. I mean, basically nothing but another full-on wizard can.
Well, a tetori can get past the EFS using dimensional dervish and punchgrabs, but can't do anything against the full complement of wizard hax. I mean, basically nothing but another full-on wizard can.
Almost any full caster can get past the "full compliment of wizard hax". With 9/9 casters it comes down to system mastery, competent build and luck. Because frankly most 9/9 casters can mimic each other with the right items and abilities.
Threads like these remind me why I don't play 9th level casters to higher levels. Either you gimp yourself or ruin everyone's fun. It's hard to optimize table fun with God level magic in play.
On topic. The wizard wins. I don't need to know how or why in particular. All I need to know is that there are about 5 spells to handle literally any situation that can occur in the game, and the Wizard will have access to most of them, so they win be default, or at worst stalemate/lose to having one less counter than the other caster.
God, I hate 9th level casting.
Conjurer teleportation subschool using shift laughs at the tetori monk.
No, it cries.
High level tetori has dimensional anchor as part of its grapple.
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Yes, but an 18th level wizard who allows a tetori in grapple range in the first place is incompetent.
Highly incompetent. Unforgivably incompetent. Clearly run by an inexperienced player who just up and decided to make an 18th-level character, rather than playing it from level one and learning all of the tactical intricacies of being a high-level caster along the way.
I'm curious if this plays out any differently if we make the "information available" asymmetrical.
That is to say, the Tetori knows everything there is to know about the Wizard: Spells Prepared, social security number, whatever. Whereas the Wizard has accurate, but incomplete information like: A member of a full-BAB or non-spellcasting class.
Honestly, if we iterate this gedankenexperiment over all the full-BAB or non-spellcasting classes, do any of them manage to do better than the Tetori?
I'm curious if this plays out any differently if we make the "information available" asymmetrical.
That is to say, the Tetori knows everything there is to know about the Wizard: Spells Prepared, social security number, whatever. Whereas the Wizard has accurate, but incomplete information like: A member of a full-BAB or non-spellcasting class.
Honestly, if we iterate this gedankenexperiment over all the full-BAB or non-spellcasting classes, do any of them manage to do better than the Tetori?
Yes, it plays out differently if the information is asymmetrical. What did you bleedin' well expect?
Basically, the wizard has a limited number of options (spell slots, gold spent, et cetera) that she needs to use to defend herself and to end the fight effectively. The less she knows about her opponent, the more things she needs to consider. At some level, she needs to balance (e.g.) the likelihood that dimension door will fail to work against the likelihood of it not working, which in turn is conditioned in part about the probability she's facing a tetori monk or a switch-hitting ranger.
Eventually, this will turn into a problem on a MATH 461 Theory of Games final exam. And the answer is that, for a properly optimized wizard, no class will manage to do better than the tetori, because that's what the word "optimized" means.
The rest is, literally, left as an exercise for the interested student.
High level zen archer monk may do better, because they can trickshot a quivering palm arrow around a fickle winds spell to save or die the wizard on a weak save. But it's a crapshoot, and the odds are not in thier favor.
With Moment of Prescience a wizard never has a weak save against the first attack. Or weak AC!
What good is an amulet of Mighty fists for a monk when there unarmed attacks already:
At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
At 7th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as cold iron and silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
You get an enhancement bonus to attacks & damage and/or some useful weapon property from a AoMF. DR is far from your only concern when making an attack.
Shapechange + Glimpse of the Akashic + Moment of Prescience = Grappled Tetori. I defy anyone to come up with a higher bonus than the ones granted by those three long term buffs alone.
Course, maintaining said grapple is easier said than done, but at least it's a guaranteed escape.
Shapechange + Glimpse of the Akashic + Moment of Prescience = Grappled Tetori.
The Wizard would have to cast Glimpse of the Akashic from a scroll, assuming he has the UMD for it.
Shapechange + Glimpse of the Akashic + Moment of Prescience = Grappled Tetori. I defy anyone to come up with a higher bonus than the ones granted by those three long term buffs alone.
Course, maintaining said grapple is easier said than done, but at least it's a guaranteed escape.
If your using Glimpse of the Akashic, your using scrolls.
Any class can do that, including the Tetori.
What is making the comparison unequal is the assumption of perfect preparation on the part of the wizard.
The tetori is built that same way regardless of opponent.
Shapechange + Glimpse of the Akashic + Moment of Prescience = Grappled Tetori. I defy anyone to come up with a higher bonus than the ones granted by those three long term buffs alone.
Course, maintaining said grapple is easier said than done, but at least it's a guaranteed escape.
If your using Glimpse of the Akashic, your using scrolls.
Any class can do that, including the Tetori.
But Wizards have so many skill points, they're just better at scrolls than most other classes, including Tetori.
What is making the comparison unequal is the assumption of perfect preparation on the part of the wizard.The tetori is built that same way regardless of opponent.
I'd suggest that a scroll of Glimpse of the Akashic is a useful spell regardless of opponent. This is where the game theory I mentioned above kicks in -- against what sort of opponent is such a spell NOT useful?
Or they could be a Samsaran.
I can imagine a careless/overconfident Wizard losing to a Tetori in a closed arena battle where neither side knows the other's class.
"Disintegrate!"
"Made my save."
"Yeah? How long can you keep that up? I have Greater Invisibility!"
"I have an item that gives me True Seeing. I grapple you."
"Ha! I have Freedom of Movement up!"
"That doesn't work against me."
"Then I just teleport away! See you, loser!"
"Nope. Dimensional lock."
"Uh oh..."
Yeah I agree, although a wizard optimised to kill monks wouldn't make those mistake I knew a guy who brought a master work Dust pan and brush for his empowered disintergrate he would make those mistakes.
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so firstly, monks are high save high ac classes which eliminates half of a wizards capabilities. secondly, what wizard ever has a demi-plane, because I've never run into one. if we take your typical wizard evoker or enchanter they wouldn't be this prepared. but say we give the two a few days to prepare the monk would bring counters to the wizards spells. if a wizard has a contingency it only helps him once and if the wizard teleports out of the arena then the tetori wins. so really top say that its so one-sided is just ridiculous
Honestly can't conceive of a level 18 wizard without a demiplane.
If you take a typical enchanter or evoked your ingnoring the bit where the wizard is supposed to be optimised to kill tetori monks.
I don't see how teleporting out is losing, the monk failed to kill the wizard and the wizard can still easily find the monk and take him by surprise at a later time. Not that they would need to leave.
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Shapechange + Glimpse of the Akashic + Moment of Prescience = Grappled Tetori. I defy anyone to come up with a higher bonus than the ones granted by those three long term buffs alone.
Course, maintaining said grapple is easier said than done, but at least it's a guaranteed escape.
Playing devils advocate, shapechanger doesn't work, as the tetori can lock you in your original form. Glimpse of the akashic is accessed via a scroll, so if the wizard has it, the monk can also have it. My monks usually max under anyway for wands of mage armor. Moment of Prescience is good for one single roll. If that is a grapple check or an escape artist check to escape the grapple, sorry but it's negated by inescapable grasp. Actually, the same thing would shut down glimpse of the akashic, because those are magical bonuses to a grapple or escape artist check. If the wizard tried a grapple, that would also provoke an AoO thanks to counter grapple, which could possibly negate the attack.
The wizard should absolutely win, but shapechanging and buffing in an attempt to out grapple the tetori isn't the way to do it, it's the way to lose from overconfidence.
Shapechange + Glimpse of the Akashic + Moment of Prescience = Grappled Tetori. I defy anyone to come up with a higher bonus than the ones granted by those three long term buffs alone.
Course, maintaining said grapple is easier said than done, but at least it's a guaranteed escape.
If your using Glimpse of the Akashic, your using scrolls.
Any class can do that, including the Tetori.
But Wizards have so many skill points, they're just better at scrolls than most other classes, including Tetori.
Headband or implanted Ioun Stone of intelligence +2: UMD as the skill.
UMD is too useful not to have maxed.