Been checking out threads lately on swashbucklers so i can optimize/play one more effectively, but it seems one thing keeps coming up. that swashbucklers are considered weak classes, that even a well optimize swashbuckler is close to a basic two handed fighter build. some of the problems i keep hearing about are that,
1) swashbucklers are locked (mostly) to one handed weapons.
2) charmed life is hard to use because you have so many swift action abilities (i feel they should have made it a free action and or last a few rounds).
3) swashbuckler have to invest heavily on feats and gear to make up for its weaknesses, leaving them lacking in other fields.
On a more recent thread someone brought up that one of the main reasons swashbucklers are considered weak is that they don't allow customization like others classes. a magus can pick arcana, wizard has schools/sub schools, fighter AwT/AaT options, rogues have talents, etc. now it won't really raise their power but i feel that swashbuckler should get the monk treatment, either it receive an archetype like quiggong that allows players to choose from a list of new deeds or a (stay with me please) unchained version that fixes some of it's glaring flaws. now don't get me wrong i love the swashbuckler, I've been happy so far. i notice that my damage is a little low compared to the other damage dealers such as the rogue, barbarian and magus and inquisitor, but that's not my main gimmick, what makes me sad is that i really have no out of combat stuff besides knowledge local and diplomacy, plus while during combat, i have to choose between parry/riposte, menacing swordplay or charmed life. so far I've been out of combat (1-3 rounds) because i keep getting hit by will/fort spells/stuff like sickening clouded or confusion. i just hope that paizo will address this in the future.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fix #1
1. Ban all DEX-to-damage options.
2. Remove Precise Strike from existence.
3. Remove a Swashbuckler's Weapon Training.
4. Remove Targeted Strike.
5. Rewrite Swashbuckler's Finesse to allow use of any light or one-handed weapon, as long as it is wielded in one hand.
6. Give Swash good Will saves. They have irrepressible personalities.
7. Charmed Life is rewritten: "Whenever a Swashbuckler would fail a saving throw, she may immediately reroll that saving throw, adding her Charisma bonus to the result." This has the same amount of daily uses as Charmed Life usually does, costs no action, and is less important overall because Will is a good save anyway.
8. New feature: "Graceful Stroke (Ex) – At 1st level, a swashbuckler who uses a light or one-handed weapon wielded in one hand gains a +1 bonus to damage if she adds her Strength modifier to the weapon damage roll. At 3rd level and every two levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1 (to a maximum of +10)."
9. New deed at 3rd level: "Confident Strike (Ex) – At 3rd level, whenever the swashbuckler fails an attack roll with a light or one-handed weapon wielded in one hand, she may spend 1 panache point to immediately reroll that attack roll adding her Charisma bonus to the result. This ability may be used once per round."
10. New feature: "Masterful Thrust (Ex) – At 5th level, the swashbuckler gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls with light or one-handed weapons she wields with one hand. Additionally, once per round when she strikes an enemy with a light or one-handed weapon wielded in one hand, she may designate that attack as a masterful thrust.
In addition, you learn one of the following poises. At 8th level and every three levels thereafter, you may choose another poise to learn.
Whenever you make a masterful thrust, you may apply the effects of any one poise you know."
Poises could be like:
Defending – The target of your attack takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls against your allies for 1 round.
Entangling – Target cannot take 5 ft. steps and movement speed is halved for 1 round.
Pilfering – Free steal attempt with a +2 bonus.
...and so on.
10. New feature also gained at 5th level: "Greater Graceful Stroke (Ex) – At 5th level, when you make a masterful thrust, rather than add graceful stroke damage, you add 3d6 damage. This damage increases by +1d6 at 7th level and every two levels thereafter."
Result:
Preferred Swashbuckler attributes become (after racials):
S14 D18 C14 I10 W8 CH12
S12 D18 C14 I10 W8 CH14
S14 D17 C12 I12 W12 CH12
S14 D16 C14 I12 W8 CH14
All of these represent the typical Jack Sparrow, Inigo Montoya, Zorro type much more than a dude with 20 DEX and no sinew. Requiring STR-to-damage for a good boost helps enforce this.
The fact that Will is a good save and Charmed Life is a reliable fall back means that WIS is dumpable.
Anyway, the class becomes based upon hitting one big masterful thrust. Certain Strike helps you land it, and so does Opportune Parry and Riposte.
Since now you don't need Slashing Grace or Iron Will, now you can toy with your feats.
The class no longer relies on precision damage, but can still deal 1 big hit per round.
You can customize your masterful thrust too, being stealy, trippy, defensive, protective, etc. as you wish.
Maybe consider looking at the Legendary Swashbuckler? I heard good things about it.
Maybe consider looking at the Legendary Swashbuckler? I heard good things about it.
i will have to check that out, though i have let to play a campaign that allows 3pp martial, shame because there's some nice but balanced stuff in them.
Swashbuckler's have some glaring weaknesses, but none of them are to do with the offensive capabilities.
The main issues Swashbuckler's face is that they, like many other martial classes have a poor will save. Of course the swash is even worse off possessing only a good reflex save (which is the worst type of save to be good at). Personally I think every class should have 2 good saves, but regardless this is probably the single biggest problem with the class.
In some ways the swashbuckler is too powerful, in many other ways too weak.
Personally, I think the swashbuckler would have worked better as an archetype of another class rather than it's own independent one.
As for how to fix it....
Personally I just suggest people to play a Daring Champion cavalier. Same great flavor, but without as many problems.
Been checking out threads lately on swashbucklers so i can optimize/play one more effectively, but it seems one thing keeps coming up. that swashbucklers are considered weak classes
Swashbuckler... weak?
**bursts out laughing**
Yeah, ha, no. They don't have the damage output of similar martial classes, true, but they basically negate the problem with AC not keeping up with to-hit.
You want to optimize your swashbuckler?
1) Take combat reflexes, lunge, extra panache, and improved critical.
2) Pump EVERYTHING into more To-Hit and panache.
3) Parry and Ripost everything you think will hit you.
4) Never spend panache on anything else.
Enjoy being the tank that never takes damage. Seriously, I just had a PC do this in Kingdom Maker. She could make it through entire dungeons (in a single in-game day) and take almost no damage.
Oh, and ALWAYS remember to have a spellcaster buff you with Protection vs Evil. But that's just good advice for any martial character.
Maybe consider looking at the Legendary Swashbuckler? I heard good things about it.i will have to check that out, though i have let to play a campaign that allows 3pp martial, shame because there's some nice but balanced stuff in them.
If you're playing in a campaign that doesn't allow 3pp, then likely homebrew isn't going to fly either.
1. For rules simplification:
a. Real bonus feat of Weapon Finesse at level 1. Add using Charisma instead of Intelligence to the list of features.
b. New bonus feat of Combat Reflexes at level 1. No need to make a new player search this out, and the class depends on Parry.
c. Real fighter class ability of Weapon Training (Blades, light) at level 5. Add Improved Critical to the list of features at level 5 in the Table: Swashbuckler.
[This should clarify that things like Gloves of Dueling will work for the Swashbuckler.]
2. Expand Panache: set the amount to be the same quantity as rounds of Bardic Performance, but drop the replenishment mechanism to avoid tracking panache up and down throughout the day:
Panache points per day initially equals 4 + Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, a Swashbuckler gains 2 more points of Panache.
3. For action economy, just admit that Parry [and 1 Riposte] will be done on 90% of combat rounds, and allow these as free actions permitted outside of your turn [instead of using up the swift/immediate actions]. Set a limit of 1 of the 3 allowed each round, but each costs 1 panache.
a. Charmed Life [now costs 1 panache instead of having a separate pool].
b. Menacing Swordplay.
c. Precise Strike damage doubling.
4. Change the Fencing Grace feat to do exactly what Mythic Weapon Finesse does: Dex-to-Damage with any finesse weapon (not just rapier). Add BAB +3 requirement. Alternatively, just give the Swashbuckler the Finesse Training as per Unchained Rogue (limits to one weapon, but does not cost a feat).
Overall:
With not needing to take Extra Panache feat about twice, the Swashbuckler can take Iron Will and/or Steadfast Personality, and Charmed Life will not be competing with Parry for actions to fix having lousy Will saves.
2. Expand Panache: set the amount to be the same quantity as rounds of Bardic Performance, but drop the replenishment mechanism to avoid tracking panache up and down throughout the day:
Panache points per day initially equals 4 + Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st, a Swashbuckler gains 2 more points of Panache.
That eliminates what's fun about panache as a game mechanic.
4. Change the Fencing Grace feat to do exactly what Mythic Weapon Finesse does: Dex-to-Damage with any finesse weapon (not just rapier). Add BAB +3 requirement. Alternatively, just give the Swashbuckler the Finesse Training as per Unchained Rogue (limits to one weapon, but does not cost a feat).
Rogue Finesse for the swashbuckler is fine, but making Fencing Grace work like Mythic Weapon Finesse is a bad idea. If you want a balanced dex-to-damage feat, I suggest Deadly Finesse.
When I wrote Improved Weapon Finesse for my house rules to replace the god-awful 'Grace' feats. I used Mythic Weapon finesse as the baseline for it's benefits. Since there was really no reason for that to be a Mythic Feat, it didn't have any interaction with the Mythic Rules to speak of. However, I made the prerequisites Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and BAB +3 so you could never get it earlier than classes which got Dex-To-Damage through class features.
I think giving DEX-to-damage is the recipe for making this class worse.
What you need to aim for is a starting point-buy that doesn't want the class to dump all their power into a single stat, otherwise you have a breakable (and thus limited by designers) class.
In my fix, I focused on trying to get the class to have healthy point buys so it's power is regulated by its spreads.
If DEX-to-damage is made any easier the ideal Swash stat line would be S7 D20 C16 I7 W14 CH7 and that's just stupid.
I think giving DEX-to-damage is the recipe for making this class worse.
What you need to aim for is a starting point-buy that doesn't want the class to dump all their power into a single stat, otherwise you have a breakable (and thus limited by designers) class.
In my fix, I focused on trying to get the class to have healthy point buys so it's power is regulated by its spreads.
If DEX-to-damage is made any easier the ideal Swash stat line would be S7 D20 C16 I7 W14 CH7 and that's just stupid.
No. A swashbuckler would still need a good Charisma because of panache and couldn't dump Strength without becoming encumbered. They'd also need a good Constitution because they're a melee combatant and a good Wisdom because they have a bad Will save.
I am running a 4-year campaign with a mixture of Strength and Dexterity characters while having Dex-to-damage options available. It's balanced as long as:
1) A Dexterity build cannot gain the benefits of two-handing weapons
2) Gish classes cannot get the option at 1st level
3) There's some opportunity cost (in other words, it costs a feat or a significant class feature).
Swashbucklers still dump CHA because it's expedient to ignore Charmed Life (or replace it through archetype, Noble Fencer looking at you), pump defensive stats, and just get Extra Panache.
If you see my write up, I add Charisma to offensive abilities too, while reducing the pressure on Wisdom.
Wisdom should be the dump of Swashbucklers, thematically speaking...
And Strength is part of their kit, and it's always been. They may not be strong first, but they are wiry.
Swashbucklers still dump CHA because it's expedient to ignore Charmed Life (or replace it through archetype, Noble Fencer looking at you), pump defensive stats, and just get Extra Panache.
If you see my write up, I add Charisma to offensive abilities too, while reducing the pressure on Wisdom.
Wisdom should be the dump of Swashbucklers, thematically speaking...
And Strength is part of their kit, and it's always been. They may not be strong first, but they are wiry.
Going to have to strongly disagree with you there.
Dumping Charisma and taking Extra Panache seems like a complete waste. I play with many regular swashbuckler players and this is alien to them. At best, it's a waste of a feat. Going this direction, you would be better off just playing a fighter with a dip in swashbuckler. Changing the swashbuckler to better fit your playstyle with the class doesn't click with me.
Calling them a Strength class doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. The entire class's kit shoehorns you into playing a Dexterity character. They get a special Weapon Finesse for free, they don't gain medium armor proficiency, they have class features that scale off of Dexterity, and they have class features that prevent them from gaining the benefits of a Strength build.
Please see my proposed fixes to see what I mean that Strength is part of the Swashbuckler's fantasy and the role it should have on the kit.
Under #1, I wasn't entirely clear on Charisma instead of Intelligence. I meant only for combat feat prerequisites.
Under #2 of my text above: I like the idea of a free Extra Panache (+2) [or more] and merging the Charmed Life mechanic into that pool. Without the automatic level increases, I would support keeping the replenishment mechanism.
Under #3, I wasn't entirely clear. I would keep the Parry and Riposte as are written in the class [and used routinely by all swashbucklers]. The other 3 abilities listed would be the ones that need to be allowed in the action economy, as long as they have enough cost/limitation that you aren't doing all of them every round plus the parry/riposte.
Under #4, I don't know if I favor reducing the prerequisites on Dex-to-Damage as much as you wrote in Deadly Finesse.
Deadly Finesse (Combat)
You can strike foes with deadly precision using a finesse weapon.Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier on damage rolls when wielding a weapon benefiting from the Weapon Finesse feat. Wielding a weapon two-handed or using an off-hand does not increase or decrease this modifier to damage. If you have a Strength penalty, this penalty applies to damage rolls while using this feat.
There is probably a clearer way to say "using an off-hand does not increase or decrease this modifier to damage."
For the level / BAB requirement, I am not sure we should be giving this benefit to all full BAB classes before Dex-to-Damage comes online for a single-class Unchained Rogue. Set it to BAB +2, so an original level 3 Rogue (or other 3/4 BAB class) could get it, but not a fighter 1/rogue 1 or less.
I do like the Strength penalty application though. That's quite sensible.
Banning dex to damage and making them strength based because they are "wiry" is just the opposite in tone for the class in general. Its a massive error.
I don't believe you read my write up. It advocates keeping them DEX-based, but keeping STR-to-damage to foment the fantasy concept of, say, D'Agtagnan or the Count of Monte Cristo.
Actual athleticism plays a small roll, and while Derring-Do can supplement it, having the STR to do it (that is, *not* a negative modifier) seems like a step forward.
Plus, with banning DEX-to-damage but giving them incentives to keep a modicum of STR while still dealing considerable damage, you don't push them out of the plethora of feats based on Power Attack, and you don't make them feel like they are being cheated out when they need 13 STR for it.
Again, if anyone bothered to read my post, it shows stat lines that I think everyone can agree represent Swashbucklers in fiction much better than the current optimized stats, even if your players are people who don't do those.
Plus, yannow, my write up fixes the structural issues of the class and grants them an identity beyond "fighters with parry".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In general, I think that effects where "if you use finesse and you add your strength modifier to damage, add this static damage too" are preferable to dex-to-damage (c.f. a fighter's "Trained Grace" or a Vigilante's "Lethal Grace").
I would probably keep Precise Strike but limit it to a standard action that prevents full attacks, so you can move and do it. The Swashbuckler is supposed to be the class that maintains distance and makes a single devastating thrust when an opening presents itself. Ideally it could be something that could be combined with Spring Attack because mobility and footwork are part of both the reality and the fantasy of the class. As it stands, the Swashbuckler is sort of encouraged to stand in one place, never move except for 5 foot steps, and make a bunch of attacks, which isn't really what it should be.
Secret Wizard, have you considered that people have read your post, but don't agree, either in whole or part?
Personally, I think Dex to damage options should be reframed as a flat precision damage equal to your dex mod. This does a few things:
1. Disincentivizes dumping strength, as you're still applying the penalty to your damage.
2. Provides a downside to dedicating to dexterity as your sole source of damage, due to the presence of creatures immune to precision damage.
I also think that charmed life should be a non-acton that consumes panache myself.
Other than that, I'd twiddle their bonus feats to be 2, 5, 8 etc.
For the level / BAB requirement, I am not sure we should be giving this benefit to all full BAB classes before Dex-to-Damage comes online for a single-class Unchained Rogue. Set it to BAB +2, so an original level 3 Rogue (or other 3/4 BAB class) could get it, but not a fighter 1/rogue 1 or less.Deadly Finesse (Combat)
You can strike foes with deadly precision using a finesse weapon.Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier on damage rolls when wielding a weapon benefiting from the Weapon Finesse feat. Wielding a weapon two-handed or using an off-hand does not increase or decrease this modifier to damage. If you have a Strength penalty, this penalty applies to damage rolls while using this feat.
I don't see any reason why a martial shouldn't get it at 1st level. I'm not concerned about the unchained rogue because:
1) The rogue gets sneak attack at 1st level, which makes Deadly Finesse less needed.
2) The unchained rogue eventually gets a better version of the feat that allows them to benefit from two-handing weapons.
3) I'd probably houserule that unchained rogues get the feat for free at 1st level. And at 3rd level, they can gain the benefits of two-handing finesse weapons. If anyone played a rogue in my campaign, I'd have to houserule the class anyway because I give Weapon Finesse for free to all characters.
4) I don't consider the unchained rogue to be a paragon of balance and good design. i personally think the rogue should have been a martial with a focus on skills and disabling foes.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Secret Wizard, have you considered that people have read your post, but don't agree, either in whole or part?
Of course, but then I keep on reading and the things they claim I want are contrary to what I postulate, so I quickly dismiss the notion. Both dudes said I want the class to focus on STR and be STR-based and blah blah blah, and I never mention that.
What I believe is that a class should be built from the point-buy up.
Set a few viable point buys, make them have slight but real impact on play patterns and customization, and make sure the class works with that.
For example, UnMonk favors the following point buys:
S14 D16 C12 I10 W14 CH8 - **quick and strong, wise and aloof**
S16 D12 C14 I10 W14 CH8 - **stronger and resilient, but just getting started on the footwork**
S16 D14 C12 I10 W14 CH8 - **less bulky, but harder to catch**
S16 D12 C14 I8 W14 CH10 - **not well learned, but otherwise capable and likable**
S14 D14 C14 I10 W14 CH10 - **balanced practitioner of martial arts**
All of these are viable (the last one would really want a racial mod to the attack stat though), and further dumping gives you a little leeway.
Plus, the kit naturally spurns CHA and invites a small dump to round it up. This to me is a good thing, because characters are defined by their strengths and weaknesses.
But all of these do well to represent the class fantasy and are extremely viable. Weaknesses help too:
Monks are aloof and distant, which means CHA should be their major weakness.
Monks are well-learned but usually their learning is philosophical rather than academical, so INT should be a minor weakness.
I believe that making Swashbucklers invest into STR in small amounts (12 or 14 STR, maybe even 15 with a dump) not only helps construct the fantasy of being the pirate that can expertly climb ropes; or the fencer knocking an enemy down with the pummel of his blade; or the guy who learned to be a soldier but had to refine his fighting style to focus more on litheness to suit his natural talents; but it also helps the class in balancing.
If the class is fully and totally DEX-based, then the kit SHOULD pressure CON and WIS (and CHA, a little). This is the UnRogue treatment, where you pump DEX, WIS and CON super high and call it a day.
In the end, that skews balance, as the Swashbuckler is tied taking options to assist with this, and works towards point buys that do not befit the class fantasy.
As I said before, I'd consider a successful kit a kit that can pull off the following CORE fantasies of Swashbuckling:
- Make a guy who's not the strongest able to take out strong opponents with bravado and precision - this is where my Graceful Stroke + Masterful Thrust combo is put to work.
- Be nimble and mobile - obtained through deeds and Weapon Finesse + finessable weapon focus invites for more DEX.
- Common flaw should be arrogance and self-involvement; or otherwise having no patience or passion about boring academic life - so main dump stats should be signaled as WIS and INT. Having good base WILL saves makes Wisdom dumps viable, and that's why I propose it.
And other stuff I'm too bored to mention.
So no, I don't believe anyone read my post and I believe they are just overly defensive about DEX-to-damage being attacked because people get boners for SAD builds and not good builds and not good game design.
Fix #1
Secret Wizard...
Wouldn't the updated class just then benefit from a dip into fighter, then wearing heavy armor plus shield while ignoring Dex? It seems to me that your changes de-emphasize dexterity to the point of encouraging a major Str investment.
Also, the bonus damage isn't called out as precision damage, encouraging crit-fishing even more than the vanilla Swashbuckler.
S18 D12 C14 I10 W8 CH14
Full Plate + Shield + Scimitar
Or am I missing something?
Fix #1
Secret Wizard...
Wouldn't the updated class just then benefit from a dip into fighter, then wearing heavy armor plus shield while ignoring Dex? It seems to me that your changes de-emphasize dexterity to the point of encouraging a major Str investment.
Also, the bonus damage isn't called out as precision damage, encouraging crit-fishing even more than the vanilla Swashbuckler.
S18 D12 C14 I10 W8 CH14
Full Plate + Shield + Scimitar
Or am I missing something?
Glad ya ask!
I think there are still overwhelming incentives to be DEX based, and a ton of them to stay in class.
1. Opportune Parry and Riposte still scales with DEX through AoOs.
2. Greater Graceful Stroke, which should be the big damage boost, adding up to 10d6 per hit, not only scales with class levels, but is gained at 5th level, which already calls for a commitment. Graceful Stroke also scales with level.
3. As you go for 5th level, you should already have Nimble, which encourages you to stay with light armor or waste a strong boost.
4. You have Weapon Finesse for free, and all the features require you to wield a weapon in one hand, so there's really no point in attempting to 2H.
5. Full Swash under this rig gets +5 to attack and +10d6 once per round, and +10 the rest of the time, to damage. This is a much more interesting proposition than a Fighter that only gets +4 to attack and damage (+4/+8 with Trained Grace, +6/+10 with Gloves of Dueling)... and getting that much power as a Fighter is already precluded by the fact that you probably have taken levels into Swashbuckler.
6. Regarding crit-fishing... I actually don't mind, +10 crit-enhanced damage is not unheard of, and you are already using a sub-par fighting style in terms of stat-scaling (as opposed to TWF or 2Hing). So I think it's a good boost. The Certainty Deed I replaced Precise Strike with had two goals: ensure you got a hit to trigger Masterful Thrust, and give you more chances of a critical per round. Criticals to me fit the fantasy of swashbucklers very much.
As a matter of fact, I forgot to add in Greater Graceful Stroke a line that says "on a critical, this damage dice aren't multiplied, but they deal maximum damage".
Perhaps a feature could be added to make Greater Graceful Stroke dice into +1d8 if using a 2x weapon, +1d10 if using a 3x weapon, and +1d12 if using a 4x weapon. That way, there's still incentive for criticals, but all types of light/one-handed weapons are supported.
I prefer the Swashbuckler as a low-str fighter. I think that fits the class fantasy better. There's a big difference between Inigo Montoya (swashbuckler) and Fezzik (barbarian or maybe fighter.)
I'd replace the deed system with something more modular. This would allow SecretWizard to make his more str-based swashbuckler and me to make my dex-based cloak-and-rapier style swashbuckler without having to spend way too many feats on it.
A more str-based swashbuckler could also just be an archetype too.
I prefer the Swashbuckler as a low-str fighter. I think that fits the class fantasy better. There's a big difference between Inigo Montoya (swashbuckler) and Fezzik (barbarian or maybe fighter.)
I'd replace the deed system with something more modular. This would allow SecretWizard to make his more str-based swashbuckler and me to make my dex-based cloak-and-rapier style swashbuckler without having to spend way too many feats on it.
A more str-based swashbuckler could also just be an archetype too.
I assume you are trolling?
Inigo Montoya is the prime example of what I'm saying. He should have S14 D18, not S7 D20.
I'm not trolling. Inigo may not have str 7 but he isn't very strong either. Neither is Wesley for that matter. They fight using technique and manual dexterity.
That's the main point of their fighting style, but they are seen jumping and climbing and swimming expertly.
Wesly may not be strong FIRST, but he has enough strength to apply chokeholds OR SINK A RAPIER THROUGH A MAN'S CHEST EFFORTLESSLY and such.
12 or 14 str is enough to represent athleticism without making them brick walls
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The real problem is that what people think of as dexterity isn't dexterity.
The real problem is that what people think of as dexterity isn't dexterity.
I still hate that jumping and movement speed are not enhanced by strength.
It's a bad idea for a swashbuckler to dump Strength. A swashbuckler wants at least 13 Strength to use Power Attack, a staple melee feat. Piranha Strike only works with light weapons whereas swashbucklers typically want to use rapiers, longswords, or other one-handed weapons that let them take advantage of swashbuckler's finesse.
So no, I don't believe anyone read my post and I believe they are just overly defensive about DEX-to-damage being attacked because people get boners for SAD builds and not good builds and not good game design.
No, because my insight about Dex-to-damage is based on running a campaign for 4 years from level 1 to 17 with a mixture of Strength and Dexterity characters. I personally prefer Strength builds, but I highly appreciate Dex-to-damage because it enables more character concepts. As I elaborated earlier, it is not overpowered and not bad design as long as it's implemented correctly.
You don't need to be hostile with people that don't share your perspective on the matter. Honestly, you sound more bias about this subject than anyone else here.
Honestly, you could limit "Swashbucklers Dumping Strength" pretty effectively by adding Dodging Panache's "The swashbuckler can only perform this deed while wearing light or no armor, and while carrying no heavier than a light load" to more deeds.
If you need to stay above a light load to use opportune parry or precise strike, you'd see more Swashbucklers with a 13ish Str I bet.
I also read what was written. I just disagree with it entirely.It's a bad idea for a swashbuckler to dump Strength. A swashbuckler wants at least 13 Strength to use Power Attack, a staple melee feat. Piranha Strike only works with light weapons whereas swashbucklers typically want to use rapiers, longswords, or other one-handed weapons that let them take advantage of swashbuckler's finesse.
So no, I don't believe anyone read my post and I believe they are just overly defensive about DEX-to-damage being attacked because people get boners for SAD builds and not good builds and not good game design.No, because my insight about Dex-to-damage is based on running a campaign for 4 years from level 1 to 17 with a mixture of Strength and Dexterity characters. I personally prefer Strength builds, but I highly appreciate Dex-to-damage because it enables more character concepts. As I elaborated earlier, it is not overpowered and not bad design as long as it's implemented correctly.
You don't need to be hostile with people that don't share your perspective on the matter. Honestly, you sound more bias about this subject than anyone else here.
@Cavall: if you read what I wrote and disagree, then argue my points, not your own imaginary points.
@Cyrad: I think that a good implementation for DEX-to-damage could also be a solution. I don't think, however, that it enables character concepts. It enables builds, which is a totally different thing.
If you really want to fix the Swashbuckler, you have to replace the entire deed system because it's an abomination. Swashbuckler is not as bad as Gunslinger, because your most used deed at least scales with level, but the class design is still atrocious.
Not only does this lack of character shaping choices make most characters created with those classes often rather similar, it also effects versatility and power level. That's because fixed class features are generally mediocre (or bad), while selectable class features (including spells) have both good and bad options. This is a mandatory design principle to avoid having everyone with that class be super powerful (and have every character of that class look the same). As a result, you can make a Wizard good or bad by making good or bad character shaping choices, but you can't make a class good if there are no character shaping choices. **
*) Fighter got such choices with AAT and AWT, while Monk got such choices with UnMonk's Ki Powers and Style Strikes.
**) I don't count feats, skills, and equipment because it should be obvious that options that literally every class can take have to be relatively weak (otherwise almost every character would take them, cf. Leadership for what happens when this rule is broken).
Personally, I think the swashbuckler would have worked better as an archetype of another class rather than it's own independent one.
*looks at Virtuous Bravo Paladin* You're right, it really does! Seriously, that archetypes basically replaces the Swashbuckler.
Personally I think every class should have 2 good saves
At least every martial should. Wizards et al. are fine with just one (phenomenal cosmic powers should come with itty bitty living space), but when Mr. "can reshape matter with my thoughts" has two good saves, yet Mr. "stick them with the pointy end" does not, you know there's something seriously wrong with the inter class balancing.
It's a bad idea for a swashbuckler to dump Strength. A swashbuckler wants at least 13 Strength to use Power Attack, a staple melee feat.
Just because it's a staple, doesn't mean it's good for all melee builds. Swashbuckler does not need Power Attack - because of the high amount of bonus damage, the overall damage increase will generally be small, and Power Attack also lowers your parry chance.
If you need to stay above a light load to use opportune parry or precise strike, you'd see more Swashbucklers with a 13ish Str I bet.
Unless one is using ABP, or the GM allows Muleback Cords of Resistance.
@Cyrad: I think that a good implementation for DEX-to-damage could also be a solution. I don't think, however, that it enables character concepts. It enables builds, which is a totally different thing.
Character concepts are different than builds, but they're often strongly connected. It's difficult to realize a character concept when the game has limited or poorly implemented options for builds that support the concept.
@Cyrad: I think that a good implementation for DEX-to-damage could also be a solution. I don't think, however, that it enables character concepts. It enables builds, which is a totally different thing.Character concepts are different than builds, but they're often strongly connected. It's difficult to realize a character concept when the game has limited or poorly implemented options for builds that support the concept.
Cannot argue with that.
I don't think that it follows that "if can't add my DEX to damage, then my concept is unviable".
"I am not the strongest, but my agility allows me to strike with deadly precision" can be realized with positive STR and high DEX without disabling concepts.
More like "my concept is frustrating to pull off because I'm forced to make my character rely on two physical ability scores instead of one for attack and damage rolls, AND I have to waste a feat to do so."
Just because it's a staple, doesn't mean it's good for all melee builds. Swashbuckler does not need Power Attack - because of the high amount of bonus damage, the overall damage increase will generally be small, and Power Attack also lowers your parry chance.
Damage is a major goal of a melee combatant, so it doesn't make any sense why a swashbuckler wouldn't want a scaling damage bonus that multiplies on a critical hit. Especially when they're encouraged to use high-crit weapons.
You also totally miss my point. My point is that even with a Dex-to-damage option, dumping Strength actually reduces a Dexterity melee combatant's damage because they lose out on Power Attack, a staple source of scaling damage for melee combatants. This refutes one of the biggest arguments against Dex-to-damage: that it lets you dump Strength to increase your damage. This is not the case.
More like "my concept is frustrating to pull off because I'm forced to make my character rely on two physical ability scores instead of one for attack and damage rolls, AND I have to waste a feat to do so."
See, I diverge in thinking needing more than two physical ability scores is bad.
Fighters need STR and DEX if they want to use heavy armor and keep up with Armor Training max DEX increases. Since they don't need INT for skill ranks due to Versatile Training, and they don't need much WIS for Will due to Armed Bravery, they are free to invest high on both STR and DEX.
UnMonks need a ton of stats, but because they have Evasion and great AC boosting options, CON is less needed, since they have good scaling damage STR is less needed, since their WIS applies to AC even while flat-footed, DEX looks less appealing. End result is a class that works best with balanced stats, if higher on the accuracy stat.
I think that making Swashbucklers rely on two physical ability scores is not a bad call, since you can make them ignore the out-of-character WIS stat (with good Will saves and a better Charmed Life), reduce the massive importance of CON (with a good Charmed Life), and boost the effects of investing a few points in STR (with something like my Graceful Stroke).
Those are actually things I can reply to, but one thing I can't see here is how I'd be making Swashbucklers into a STR class. Will answer in full once I get home.
More like "my concept is frustrating to pull off because I'm forced to make my character rely on two physical ability scores instead of one for attack and damage rolls, AND I have to waste a feat to do so."See, I diverge in thinking needing more than two physical ability scores is bad.
It's bad because it makes it more annoying and difficult to have your damage scale. Statistically, it's like playing an archer with all of the drawbacks but none of the perks of using a longbow. Having to invent a class feature that gives scaling damage for Weapon Finesse builds just proves my point. It begs the question why not simply offer an option to add Dexterity to damage rolls while ensuring that it doesn't scale as well as a Strength build and ensuring a player can't dump Strength. That's a more constructive and simpler solution than a class feature that puts a band-aid on the situation.
Damage is a major goal of a melee combatant, so it doesn't make any sense why a swashbuckler wouldn't want a scaling damage bonus that multiplies on a critical hit.
You're ignoring the accuracy penalty. Normally, Power Attack is worth it because for most characters, the actual attack:damage ration is something like 1:1.5 (this means -1 on attack rolls decreases the average damage per round as much as +1.5 on damage rolls increases it).
But, since the damage bonus is static while the accuracy penalty makes the entire hit miss, the higher your bonus damage gets, the worse the ration becomes. It's simply math.You also totally miss my point.
I get you point, it's just that it's wrong because it's based on a wrong asumption.
You don't see how banning dex to damage but adding in an ability that works ONLY if they add strength to damage makes them strength based?
I think this is a misunderstanding. Secret Wizard takes "strength based" as meaning that strength is the primary stat, while you seem to use it for any character that somewhat scales with strength.
@KitKat: What did you do against for instance flying or invisible enemies?
Damage is a major goal of a melee combatant, so it doesn't make any sense why a swashbuckler wouldn't want a scaling damage bonus that multiplies on a critical hit.You're ignoring the accuracy penalty. Normally, Power Attack is worth it because for most characters, the actual attack:damage ration is something like 1:1.5 (this means -1 on attack rolls decreases the average damage per round as much as +1.5 on damage rolls increases it).
But, since the damage bonus is static while the accuracy penalty makes the entire hit miss, the higher your bonus damage gets, the worse the ration becomes. It's simply math.
Power Attack does not disadvantage the swashbuckler's attack rolls anymore than other martial classes. One of the major perks of a full BAB class is having an attack bonus high enough to make such trade-offs. Even if two-handed fighters get more mileage out of it, Power Attack is still powerful because it's a feat that gives you bonus damage as you level up.
Another reason the "accuracy penalty makes it not worth it" point doesn't hold much water is that Power Attack can be used situationally. Even if it's not always useful, you're better off having the option to take/use the feat than never being able to take or use it. Especially when it's a bad idea to have an armor-wearing combat character with less than 10 Strength anyway since even just a celestial armor and a bag of holding will encumber such a character to a medium load.
You also totally miss my point.I get you point, it's just that it's wrong because it's based on a wrong asumption.
Exactly how is it wrong?
Dump Strength -> no Power Attack -> can never take the staple feat for scaling damage that multiplies on a critical hit -> less damage
Even assuming I concede your above point that a player might feel Power Attack isn't worth the attack roll penalty, that's still a preferential decision that causes the player to lose a significant amount of damage. Ergo, dumping Strength = less damage, even if you have an option that adds your Dexterity mod to damage rolls.
Look, this is all lovely and theoretical and all. But you're moving based on what other people say isn't good based on writing stuff in a forum.
I PLAYED a Swashbuckler in the Final books of the Skull & Shackles campaign...and you know what...
I OWNED that game. Dex based instead of strength, you bet!
Cool anecdote. That surely trumps theorycrafting which is after all only a theory.
Yeah, I read that an got terribly dismayed at this whole discussion.
I played Skulls and Shackles twice with optimized characters and they both died, and I have a bit of system mastery I'd say.
I'm also running a campaign that has lasted for 4.5 years with a mixture of Strength and Dexterity characters. I made Weapon Finesse a free feat, and let the magus use Dervish Dance (later retrained to Deadly Finesse) with her katana (houseruled as a finesse weapon) when she was level 3. Now she and the rest of the party are level 17. It was great to see how the option measures up across all levels. The greatsword-wielding soulknife is the hardest hitting character in the party, followed by the monk.
The biggest concern I had was that the option seems too strong to give to a gish at 1st level. I think it's fine for a full BAB martial, but getting such an option at 1st level makes a Dex-based gish way too competitive with martials at 1st and 2nd level. Hence why I made Deadly Finesse have a +1 base attack bonus prerequisite.