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*shrug* It's the same name used in Pathfinder-era Golarion for elves who live outside elven homelands. Seems like a natural evolution of the term.
Forlorn doesn't denote disdain. It's pity. The traditionalist elves know how short-lived the other races are, and are acutely aware of that attachment to such beings will lead to feelings of loss. This of course is something that the elves of starfinder know well, after losing their memories of the life they once lived. They just don't want to get hurt again.
But think about the sterotypes of teens and how older more conservative people view teens. The forlorn isn't how they view themselves(well for the most part) but how the general more conservative Elves see them.
Forlorn doesn't denote disdain. It's pity. The traditionalist elves know how short-lived the other races are, and are acutely aware of that attachment to such beings will lead to feelings of loss. This of course is something that the elves of starfinder know well, after losing their memories of the life they once lived. They just don't want to get hurt again.The whole concept of the Forlorn is pretty bad to me. The Drizz't books handled the disparity in life expectancy pretty well i think, the character spends a book or two in a similar mentality before he adapts and comes to think of it not as one thousand year life with everyone dying all the dang time but to be living many different lifes as time goes on. It helps him adapt to changes in society as well. Granted i havent kept up with the series and last left off when Drizz't had to come to grips with Orcs not being generic bad guys anymore but i think it decently handled the fact that elves should be capable of the same mental coping mechanisms as anyone else. The death of a loved one hurts but it shouldnt be a thing that cant be overcome. Saying all elves who live outside elven nations becomes forlorn is like saying every human who enters their teens becomes a hot topic emo for life, it comes off as a bad stereotype.
It isn't really about the death of a loved one- it's about not being raised 'right.'
It's a mix of contempt (for being uncultured) and pity (for having attachments to animals with the relative lifespans of goldfish). It usually comes across as similar to a social class thing- forlorn simply aren't brought up properly, don't know the etiquette and are constantly showing their ignorance. It isn't necessarily their fault, but it's immensely patronizing nonetheless.
Pathfinder elves are jerks.
Pathfinder elves are jerks.
All elves are jerks. It's part of what makes them elves. If you disagree, then you're probably an elf, and thus are disagreeing because you are a jerk.
;)
Forlorn doesn't denote disdain. It's pity. The traditionalist elves know how short-lived the other races are, and are acutely aware of that attachment to such beings will lead to feelings of loss. This of course is something that the elves of starfinder know well, after losing their memories of the life they once lived. They just don't want to get hurt again.The whole concept of the Forlorn is pretty bad to me. The Drizz't books handled the disparity in life expectancy pretty well i think, the character spends a book or two in a similar mentality before he adapts and comes to think of it not as one thousand year life with everyone dying all the dang time but to be living many different lifes as time goes on. It helps him adapt to changes in society as well. Granted i havent kept up with the series and last left off when Drizz't had to come to grips with Orcs not being generic bad guys anymore but i think it decently handled the fact that elves should be capable of the same mental coping mechanisms as anyone else. The death of a loved one hurts but it shouldnt be a thing that cant be overcome. Saying all elves who live outside elven nations becomes forlorn is like saying every human who enters their teens becomes a hot topic emo for life, it comes off as a bad stereotype.It isn't really about the death of a loved one- it's about not being raised 'right.'
It's a mix of contempt (for being uncultured) and pity (for having attachments to animals with the relative lifespans of goldfish). It usually comes across as similar to a social class thing- forlorn simply aren't brought up properly, don't know the etiquette and are constantly showing their ignorance. It isn't necessarily their fault, but it's immensely patronizing nonetheless.
Pathfinder elves are jerks.
You certainly have a point. But it definitely seems like a generational thing. Older traditionalist elves look down on the younger cosmopolitan elves and call them "forlorn" out of pity/disdain. Though admittedly my knowledge of elven culture is limited due to my nearly never actually playing with the core setting.
You certainly have a point. But it definitely seems like a generational thing. Older traditionalist elves look down on the younger cosmopolitan elves...Forlorn doesn't denote disdain. It's pity. The traditionalist elves know how short-lived the other races are, and are acutely aware of that attachment to such beings will lead to feelings of loss. This of course is something that the elves of starfinder know well, after losing their memories of the life they once lived. They just don't want to get hurt again.The whole concept of the Forlorn is pretty bad to me. The Drizz't books handled the disparity in life expectancy pretty well i think, the character spends a book or two in a similar mentality before he adapts and comes to think of it not as one thousand year life with everyone dying all the dang time but to be living many different lifes as time goes on. It helps him adapt to changes in society as well. Granted i havent kept up with the series and last left off when Drizz't had to come to grips with Orcs not being generic bad guys anymore but i think it decently handled the fact that elves should be capable of the same mental coping mechanisms as anyone else. The death of a loved one hurts but it shouldnt be a thing that cant be overcome. Saying all elves who live outside elven nations becomes forlorn is like saying every human who enters their teens becomes a hot topic emo for life, it comes off as a bad stereotype.It isn't really about the death of a loved one- it's about not being raised 'right.'
It's a mix of contempt (for being uncultured) and pity (for having attachments to animals with the relative lifespans of goldfish). It usually comes across as similar to a social class thing- forlorn simply aren't brought up properly, don't know the etiquette and are constantly showing their ignorance. It isn't necessarily their fault, but it's immensely patronizing nonetheless.
Pathfinder elves are jerks.
It doesn't seem to be. Both Queen of Thorns and Plague of Shadows (Pathfinder tales novels) feature Forlorn elves interacting with elves from Kyonin and the attitudes are pretty universal regardless of age or a cosmopolitan lifestyle. They're a bit kinder in the latter, but even the 'young elf lass' is patronizing and/or deeply offended by the Forlorn at various points. There is a huge culture gap that the Forlorn characters just can't cross. One is invited to, but it would involve tossing everything she cares about to the winds and embracing the Kyonin lifestyle for a century or two before she's really accepted.
It is interesting how the definition of "Forlorn" changed over the centuries. In Pathfinder, a Forlorn Elf was one who grew up among shorter lived races and thus has probably already outlived nearly everyone he knew as a child. In the Starfinder era, that definition has broadened to include any Elf who hangs out with shorter lived races even if he grew up in a normal elven family whose members are mostly still around -- in other words, pretty much every elven PC.
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http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4091-EXCLUSIVE-A-Look-At-The-Plane t-Castrovel-From-The-Upcoming-Starfinder-RPG#.WQuW6tLyuCh
Nice! Space Elves look great - I really like the idea of more Xenophobic elves who question their own history! Also, I didn't think that Castrovel would be that interesting, but it is!
Anyone else tired of the "xenophobic Elves" thing? Whatever happened to being Chaotic Good? It seems like it started out as a novel variation on the classically benevolent and kind Tolkien Elves for (if I'm not mistaken) the DRAGONLANCE campaign setting, but since then it's become almost the norm (as one poster kind of pointed out). People love vilifying a race that started out as a manifestation of the higher elements of Human nature (Blizzard Entertainment certainly didn't help).
I, for one, am ready for a more Tolkienesque Elf again.
Or why not something new? Why not accentuate their Chaotic side? Make them brilliant, unpredictable, countercultural weirdos with an occasional taste for eco-terrorism!
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Technically, Tolkien gave us the xenophobic elves first- the wood elves in The Hobbit are hardly paragons of benevolence... and even Rivendell isn't exactly a multicultural hangout.
The funny thing is, if you ask James Jacobs, his goal or Pathfinder was to NOT have Golarion's elves be xenophobic arrogant gits... but much like sensibly dressed female characters in art, intention has been stymied by execution.
Anyone else tired of the "xenophobic Elves" thing? Whatever happened to being Chaotic Good? It seems like it started out as a novel variation on the classically benevolent and kind Tolkien Elves for (if I'm not mistaken) the DRAGONLANCE campaign setting, but since then it's become almost the norm (as one poster kind of pointed out). People love vilifying a race that started out as a manifestation of the higher elements of Human nature (Blizzard Entertainment certainly didn't help)!http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?4091-EXCLUSIVE-A-Look-At-The-Plane t-Castrovel-From-The-Upcoming-Starfinder-RPG#.WQuW6tLyuCh
Nice! Space Elves look great - I really like the idea of more Xenophobic elves who question their own history! Also, I didn't think that Castrovel would be that interesting, but it is!
What? Elves weren't manifestations of higher elements of human nature. Not even Tolkien elves. He just made the Norse elves pretty, and they were rather vicious, twisted craftsmen (pretty indistinguishable from the Norse dwarves, really, and for good reason, since the separation between the two is vague at best)
Moving away from that tradition, elves were just one more thing to be afraid of in the dark and the woods.
...You certainly have a point. But it definitely seems like a generational thing. Older traditionalist elves lookForlorn doesn't denote disdain. It's pity. The traditionalist elves know how short-lived the other races are, and are acutely aware of that attachment to such beings will lead to feelings of loss. This of course is something that the elves of starfinder know well, after losing their memories of the life they once lived. They just don't want to get hurt again.The whole concept of the Forlorn is pretty bad to me. The Drizz't books handled the disparity in life expectancy pretty well i think, the character spends a book or two in a similar mentality before he adapts and comes to think of it not as one thousand year life with everyone dying all the dang time but to be living many different lifes as time goes on. It helps him adapt to changes in society as well. Granted i havent kept up with the series and last left off when Drizz't had to come to grips with Orcs not being generic bad guys anymore but i think it decently handled the fact that elves should be capable of the same mental coping mechanisms as anyone else. The death of a loved one hurts but it shouldnt be a thing that cant be overcome. Saying all elves who live outside elven nations becomes forlorn is like saying every human who enters their teens becomes a hot topic emo for life, it comes off as a bad stereotype.It isn't really about the death of a loved one- it's about not being raised 'right.'
It's a mix of contempt (for being uncultured) and pity (for having attachments to animals with the relative lifespans of goldfish). It usually comes across as similar to a social class thing- forlorn simply aren't brought up properly, don't know the etiquette and are constantly showing their ignorance. It isn't necessarily their fault, but it's immensely patronizing nonetheless.
Pathfinder elves are jerks.
Like I said, I'm no expert. Elves in my campaigns are typically rural folk, smart, know magic well, but conservative and insular. Basically hillbillies.
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Was wondering, is there any information about how long lived Lashunta are? Also do lashunta have any naming conventions?
Was wondering, is there any information about how long lived Lashunta are? Also do lashunta have any naming conventions?
I don't think we have any information on Lashunta names yet.
As to how long lived they are, the Castrovel article on EN World implies but does not directly state that Lashunta are nowhere near as long lived as Elves -- but since this information is given only by implication, that could mean anything from the lifespan of an Orc to that of a Half-Elf.
For that matter, are we talking natural life spans or after for accounting in common anti-aging drugs available in the far future? Elf derived gene therapy can add centuries these days you know...
I'd say the natural lifespan of the average starfinder lashunta, so if it's societally normal for lashunta to be genetically engineered for longer lives, that would be the age I'm looking for. But if most don't take such a route, I'd like to know how long the majority live for (naturally, not accounting for accidental death/death by stray goblin laserbolt).
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For that matter, are we talking natural life spans or after for accounting in common anti-aging drugs available in the far future? Elf derived gene therapy can add centuries these days you know...
And everyone wonders why we're so insular; go derive gene therapy from your own genes!
The only societies we know about are human, so we are talking about human males, however if we talk about insects, then those societies are matriarchal, every bee with a stinger is female, the hive is rule by the Queen bee. In fiction the Alien from the Alien movies is part of a matriarchal society, they are ruled by a queen as well.Pathfinder has already demolished all Patriarchal societies. That's why it's curious they left these other ones.But it clearly states that they are a Matriarchal Society. Which means it's still "Problematic" and "Sexist".When the majority of historic societies and governments are patriarchal, having one or two matriarchal ones does not make the matriarchal ones "problematic" or "sexist".
Insects, as has been pointed out previously, do not have a society.
In my own homebrew variation on the official setting, the Castrovel elves are simply the descendants of an ancient elven colonization project from a completely different star system. Either by design or disaster, the Castrovel elves have forgotten this fact (even back in PF days). Golarion elves are still the results of Castrovel elves trying to colonise Golarion. (There is some irony there.)
So in my own homebrew variation of the SF setting, maybe some of the Forlorn have been sent out deliberately from Castrovel. It could well be that the Castrovel elves have finally discovered something that leads them to suspect the truth of their own origins, and now they want to re-connect with their own, true homeworld.
That said, it's kind of amusing to me that the "new" official explanation of the Lashunta dimorphism has some similarities with my homebrew elves' biology (which I took from Mary Gentle's sci-fi novel, "Golden Witchbreed"). :)
I am so very happy with the sexual dimorphic retcon.
Also, xenoseeker character theme! TELL ME MORE!
Who says it's a retcon? Could just have evolved like that during the gap.
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Sexual dimorphism isn't sexist on its own, but the manner in which the Lashunta sexual dimorphism was presented was sexist. Males were nothing more than dumb savages that were only good for working or fighting while females were beautiful sex objects for the human proantoginists to seduce. It's very pulp adventure and while those tropes are classics of the genre, that doesn't mean that those tropes aren't sexist.
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Sexual dimorphism isn't sexist on its own, but the manner in which the Lashunta sexual dimorphism was presented was sexist. Males were nothing more than dumb savages that were only good for working or fighting while females were beautiful sex objects for the human proantoginists to seduce. It's very pulp adventure and while those tropes are classics of the genre, that doesn't mean that those tropes aren't sexist.
"Dumb Savages" isn't a fitting description for someone with a racial int bonus.
Nor is "sex objects" a fitting description for the ruling caste, which the Lashunta women explicitly were.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sexual dimorphism is a thing that exists in nature. Sometimes radically so, as in anglerfish or many bird species. I don't see why it is a problem for a sentient species to exhibit an entirely natural phenomenon. On the contrary, for there to be no species in the galaxy that exhibit a high degree of sexual dimorphism would be as strange as (or stranger than) there being no sentient insect species, or no sentients that weren't also bipeds. To me, it makes them less interesting. One more species where there aren't any gender roles, just like all the others. Big deal.
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Who says it's a retcon? Could just have evolved like that during the gap.I am so very happy with the sexual dimorphic retcon.
Also, xenoseeker character theme! TELL ME MORE!
The Core Rulebook explains how the two different clades of lashunta developed due to environmental and societal pressures. The race's genetics haven't changed at all since the Pathfinder era, but the societal pressures that interact with them have, hence the move away from something that looked like pure sexual dimorphism (but had a different root cause) and toward a more self-directed model in which individuals choose their adaptation.
Yeah, I think that's been stated at least once before somewhere in the last month.
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The Core Rulebook explains how the two different clades of lashunta developed due to environmental and societal pressures. The race's genetics haven't changed at all since the Pathfinder era, but the societal pressures that interact with them have, hence the move away from something that looked like pure sexual dimorphism (but had a different root cause) and toward a more self-directed model in which individuals choose their adaptation.Who says it's a retcon? Could just have evolved like that during the gap.I am so very happy with the sexual dimorphic retcon.
Also, xenoseeker character theme! TELL ME MORE!
That's a retcon, though.
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That's a retcon, though.The Core Rulebook explains how the two different clades of lashunta developed due to environmental and societal pressures. The race's genetics haven't changed at all since the Pathfinder era, but the societal pressures that interact with them have, hence the move away from something that looked like pure sexual dimorphism (but had a different root cause) and toward a more self-directed model in which individuals choose their adaptation.Who says it's a retcon? Could just have evolved like that during the gap.I am so very happy with the sexual dimorphic retcon.
Also, xenoseeker character theme! TELL ME MORE!
No it is not. Retcon would be writing that they never had dimorphism at all, which is not what they are doing.
They have evolved as a society and as such they have changed as a people. The option to be exactly the same as ancient times is still there if an individual wants that. But they have broadened their views to give everyone a choice and their biology supports that.
So now both males and females can be short or tall, thick of limb or svelt, etc.
A retcon would be a retroactive change making them never have been different to start with.
Is it A change. Sure. The race changed from ancient times to modern. Much like the elves changed from being not very xenophobic to very and isolationist.
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That's a retcon, though.The Core Rulebook explains how the two different clades of lashunta developed due to environmental and societal pressures. The race's genetics haven't changed at all since the Pathfinder era, but the societal pressures that interact with them have, hence the move away from something that looked like pure sexual dimorphism (but had a different root cause) and toward a more self-directed model in which individuals choose their adaptation.Who says it's a retcon? Could just have evolved like that during the gap.I am so very happy with the sexual dimorphic retcon.
Also, xenoseeker character theme! TELL ME MORE!
No it is not. Retcon would be writing that they never had dimorphism at all, which is not what they are doing.
They have evolved as a society and as such they have changed as a people. The option to be exactly the same as ancient times is still there if an individual wants that. But they have broadened their views to give everyone a choice and their biology supports that.
So now both males and females can be short or tall, thick of limb or svelt, etc.
A retcon would be a retroactive change making them never have been different to start with.
Is it A change. Sure. The race changed from ancient times to modern. Much like the elves changed from being not very xenophobic to very and isolationist.
What you are saying is not what a retcon means.
Pathfinder: "Lashunta are sexually dimorphic"Starfinder: "Lashunta were never actually sexually dimorphic, instead their culture just tended to emulate sexual dimorphism"
That is, by definition of a retcon, a retcon.
Since, well, let's look at the definition of a retcon as per google definitions (what you get if you just type "retcon" in google search): "(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency."
This fits perfectly.
Or, let's look at tvtropes: "Reframing past events to serve a current plot need. The ideal retcon clarifies a question alluded to without adding excessive new questions. In its most basic form, this is any plot point that was not intended from the beginning. The most preferred use is where it contradicts nothing, even though it was changed later on."
It also applies without a hiccup.
No it is not. Retcon would be writing that they never had dimorphism at all, which is not what they are doing.
That is literally what they're saying though, that there never was any sexual dimorphism.
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Frankly I could care less about the politics or retconning about a paragraph long race that I can't recall ever showing up in any books. I never had any investment in the old Lashunta. All hail the new ones.
What I'm curious about is pre adolescent Lashunta and the actual biological mechanics that trigger the changes. Like what do the Lashunta do to force these changes? What allowed them to discover this distinction in themselves and what sort of history and politics occurred that led from a split even race to a more intermixed caste system? And what kind of evolutionary chain caused them to have such a capability?
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My only complaint with the article and the information on the lashunta was the lack of an image of the korasha lashunta. We have two pictures of the pretty ones plus the iconic technomancer, but nothing showing the other side of the equation which would have been nice for a race that has been described as having two subspecies.
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My only complaint with the article and the information on the lashunta was the lack of an image of the korasha lashunta. We have two pictures of the pretty ones plus the iconic technomancer, but nothing showing the other side of the equation which would have been nice for a race that has been described as having two subspecies.
Hmm, what about the Lashunta in the Mechanic preview blog?
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My only complaint with the article and the information on the lashunta was the lack of an image of the korasha lashunta. We have two pictures of the pretty ones plus the iconic technomancer, but nothing showing the other side of the equation which would have been nice for a race that has been described as having two subspecies.
I can totally relate to that, I have NEVER seen an Korasha Lashunta
Thx...okay that looks vaguely familiar...
I stand corrected... I have seen ONE Korasha and that time was long ago
My only complaint with the article and the information on the lashunta was the lack of an image of the korasha lashunta. We have two pictures of the pretty ones plus the iconic technomancer, but nothing showing the other side of the equation which would have been nice for a race that has been described as having two subspecies.Hmm, what about the Lashunta in the Mechanic preview blog?
Ah, I had not seen that blog posting. Still, it would have been nice to include that image or another in the article about the lashunta and/or Castrovel just for comparison's sake. :)
That's a retcon, though.The Core Rulebook explains how the two different clades of lashunta developed due to environmental and societal pressures. The race's genetics haven't changed at all since the Pathfinder era, but the societal pressures that interact with them have, hence the move away from something that looked like pure sexual dimorphism (but had a different root cause) and toward a more self-directed model in which individuals choose their adaptation.Who says it's a retcon? Could just have evolved like that during the gap.I am so very happy with the sexual dimorphic retcon.
Also, xenoseeker character theme! TELL ME MORE!
No it is not. Retcon would be writing that they never had dimorphism at all, which is not what they are doing.
They have evolved as a society and as such they have changed as a people. The option to be exactly the same as ancient times is still there if an individual wants that. But they have broadened their views to give everyone a choice and their biology supports that.
So now both males and females can be short or tall, thick of limb or svelt, etc.
A retcon would be a retroactive change making them never have been different to start with.
Is it A change. Sure. The race changed from ancient times to modern. Much like the elves changed from being not very xenophobic to very and isolationist.
Mashallah has already covered the retcon bit, so I'll ignore that. But hold up. I know this is science fiction, but it's science fiction. They broadened their views and their biology changed to reflect that? That's absurd. Science doesn't care about how a society views an issue.
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They broadened their views and their biology changed to reflect that? That's absurd. Science doesn't care about how a society views an issue.
Ah, but it does! In a modern society like ours, many of the environmental pressures on us are created socially. The choice about whether to visit the ISS or not is a purely social one, but spending a bunch of time in zero-g is still going to affect your height, bone density, musculature, etc. They're still physical environmental pressures, but whether or not you're subjected to them is due to choices made within the society. Another example would be the dramatic difference in height and physical health between folks in North and South Korea. North Koreans are, genetically, essentially the same as South Koreans, but are on average several inches shorter due to worse nutrition in early years. Another physical pressure, but one created by social institutions.
In the case of the lashunta, you've got creatures that naturally adopt one of two forms in order to fill particular roles in their society. In the past, strict socially constructed rules about gender roles meant that women were generally pushed into one form and men into the other. But what they (and thus the text of previous Pathfinder books) considered "natural" and "innate" was really just a biological reflection of their beliefs. As the society advanced socially, those beliefs fell out of favor, children of various genders began taking different forms, and people realized that their former set roles didn't have any real basis in biology. But through it all, the underlying genetics remained the same.
Is that a retcon? Sure, by the definitions cited above. But it's also a deeper dive into the race than we've ever taken before, and a much more interesting (and to me, palatable) hook than the simple sexual dimorphism. As one of the folks that originally created the lashunta, I can confidently say that I vastly prefer this newer version, and I hope Past Me would as well. :D