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That's the thing though. Nothing is forcing you to run an adventure on Castrovel, and even if you did run an adventure on Castrovel nothing is making you force your players into a "These Lashunta believe that warrior roles are a male's job!". Unless those words exit your lips as a DM, or the player makes point to note that -some- and not -all- Lashunta hold these views, than it doesn't have to come up at all. It's fluff for the sake of giving what was a relatively bland and lacking race some depth.
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Is there a particular event or rite of passage that marks an adolescent's ascension into Damaya or Korasha, or is it a very passive transition? Seems like this transformation would be a very spiritual and defining characteristic of Lashunta culture. Is it purely a biological adaptation, or is some magic involved in the process?
I'm very curious about how this works, and excited by all the hooks it brings: a background of culturally embedded gender roles, dimorphism, castes, political diversity, and potential exciting rites of passages to fulfill - all wrapped up in a single race. Lashunta are quickly becoming one of Starfinder's most fascinating cultures.
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Literally everything in Pathfinder and Starfinder is influenced by real-world history and/or politics. Heck, the entire of genre of science fiction exists to put society and culture under microscopes.
Why is it only ever a problem when we mention gender or sexuality?
This wasn't even especially deep. "Hey, these people have gendered biases, but they're the opposite of what we struggle with in our real world." Not sure why that's something that's "pushing an agenda."
^
I'm confused as to how creating a fictional species in which all the women were beautiful and all the men were ugly wasn't political? I'm confused as to how creating fictional societies in which all the positions of power are held by men and women can't inherit the throne wasn't political? How the predominance of straight relationships wasn't political? How having all the men in Falcon's Hollow be lumberjacks and all the women be sex workers wasn't political?
Spoiler alert: Literally every RPG product you've ever bought that had words or art in it was "[feeding] you real-world politics in [your] fantasy role-playing games" and "push[ing] someone's agenda."
Don't pretend that the politics you liked and agreed with and felt should continue to be the status quo weren't politics.
I feel I need to chime in on Lashunta. Yes, my primary disappointment is that I feel what was done with the elves, based on what was said in the interview/sneak peek, was ill-considered and a vast step back for the species. It isn't the only thing that's pushing me away from the Starfinder setting, but it's one of them.
I liked the old version of the Lashunta. I like the new version more, because I love transformation themes, and what was done felt like a much better explanation of why the change occurred. I don't like the appearance of any of the Lashunta I've seen, but that's a question of personal aesthetics. They're interesting. I think that they're an interesting species and are well-done.
I just wish the elves had gotten the same sort of treatment, instead of what happened.
I'm fine with the Starfinder version of elves. The Pathfinder version of elves doesn't match up exactly with how I run/play elves at my table, but it does sound like you could have your Pathfinder elf wander in into an suspended animation chamber, Fry-style, get revived in Starfinder as the exact same elf, down to the Forlorn thing, and that totally works in Paizo's best interests, elf-loving audience retention-wise.
(I hope that didn't sound dismissive, I'm an elf-loving audience member.)
I feel I need to chime in on Lashunta. Yes, my primary disappointment is that I feel what was done with the elves, based on what was said in the interview/sneak peek, was ill-considered and a vast step back for the species. It isn't the only thing that's pushing me away from the Starfinder setting, but it's one of them.
I liked the old version of the Lashunta. I like the new version more, because I love transformation themes, and what was done felt like a much better explanation of why the change occurred. I don't like the appearance of any of the Lashunta I've seen, but that's a question of personal aesthetics. They're interesting. I think that they're an interesting species and are well-done.
I just wish the elves had gotten the same sort of treatment, instead of what happened.
Benjamin, while we're on the subject, I'm really interested to hear how you might approach elves in a Starfinder ruleset at your own table? I personally think it was a smart move to allow familiar races to remain familiar so that each campaign group has more flexibility to interpret them as them as they will (humans don't appear to have changed much either, apart from being a refugee race without Golarion present) - but I can't deny I'd be intrigued to see how elves could be reflavored for a sci-fa setting. What sorts of things would you like to see from elves in Starfinder's future?
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Now I have 3 Devs commenting on knowing my world views and mocking these views in some fashion. I find that a race with such acceptable Fluid sexuality to still be a Martiarchy to be absurd. That was my main concern since the conservative groups are a minority by this description.
Now I have 3 Devs commenting on knowing my world views and mocking these views in some fashion. I find that a race with such acceptable Fluid sexuality to still be a Martiarchy to be absurd. That was my main concern since the conservative groups are a minority by this description.
Your're absolutely right.
A race that in a biological since was sexually fluid, couldn't be matriarchal or patriarchal. At least not in the same way that humans would see it.
Now I have 3 Devs commenting on knowing my world views and mocking these views in some fashion. I find that a race with such acceptable Fluid sexuality to still be a Martiarchy to be absurd. That was my main concern since the conservative groups are a minority by this description.
Its okay. My work is going to flavor them differently. Probably as a bilinal Republic.
Now I have 3 Devs commenting on knowing my world views and mocking these views in some fashion. I find that a race with such acceptable Fluid sexuality to still be a Martiarchy to be absurd. That was my main concern since the conservative groups are a minority by this description.
I don't think that the developers were mocking your own views in any way, nor do I see the developers presenting a matriarchy in the traditional sense. It seems from what I've read that societal gender roles are still a deeply ingrained concept that perpetuates a sort of unregulated matriarchy, in which damaya Lashunta are in positions of authority because there's a societal expectation that this is the way things are. The developers are obviously drawing from real world experiences to create their stories, which is common among all authors. It doesn't seem there intent to tell you what to think, only to create an environment that makes you think. So long as you're being nice on the forum I don't think your views would be hounded. I'd just be cautious of whether these views could also be personal biases that could really affect your fellow forum goers.
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I like the idea of the Starfinder elves having kinda 2 "factions." You've got the older elves that were affected by The Gap and are now withdrawn, and untrusting of outsiders. Then you've got the younger elves that didn't experience The Gap (who could be quite old even for elves since it happened 300 years ago), who aren't so xenophobic (xenointolerant?).
There could be a built in story of young vs old, Traditionals vs Forlorn, age vs experience. Seems like a good idea for conflict within groups of elves. Such a long lived species surely has wild ideas about youthfulness (with people at 100-200 years old still being told to respect their elders).
I can totally see a 150 year old elf going home and being shunned for their beliefs, but they know far more about the outside world. They probably know exactly how to better their civilization because they've had contact with other people, and seen elven ideas play out over the lifetimes of shorter lived races, so they'd know the path their culture was on. Trying to get the elders to see reason would be nearly impossible not only because they are "young" by elven standards, but also because of the way the very knowledge they have that could save them was gained in a way the elders deemed unsavory.
How has this change affected the outlook and number of half elves? What about other half human species?
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Benjamin, while we're on the subject, I'm really interested to hear how you might approach elves in a Starfinder ruleset at your own table? I personally think it was a smart move to allow familiar races to remain familiar so that each campaign group has more flexibility to interpret them as them as they will (humans don't appear to have changed much either, apart from being a refugee race without Golarion present) - but I can't deny I'd be intrigued to see how elves could be reflavored for a sci-fa setting. What sorts of things would you like to see from elves in Starfinder's future?
First off, the Gap has kind of bugged me, but I was mostly not caring about it because it didn't matter for the most part. The last few bits I'd heard about it was that for the most part it was ignored by people because it was far enough in the past... except when it comes to elves. Great, whatever. But then they took the xenophobia/arrogance which made a fair number of people hate elves in the 2nd Ed Book of Elves, and which appeared in Second Darkness and utterly appalled me, and made it worse.
I would rather have seen the elves utterly flip out and go on a crusade to find whatever caused the Gap to ensure that it never happened again. I would have liked seeing them maybe merging magic, biotech, and nanotech to make trees and other plantlife grow ships and semi-living equipment. I would have liked to have seen them actually grow as a species for once, maybe driving through their skulls that they aren't 'better than everyone else', since that's the trait everyone seems to hate, yet keeps ending up front and center.
Instead we got this. It's draining and disappointing to me, because in so many ways I see more eye to eye with Paizo's developers than many of the people I see posting on the boards, but more and more I find myself drifting away because of recent material or setting decisions. First was a year of Cheliax, followed by Strange Aeons and 'Red Hand of Doom' reborn, which meant that I had nothing I wanted of the Adventure Path line for 2 years, but I still hoped, and instead I got Aboleths (Ruins of Azlant). My only real hope was Starfinder, and the Drift was the first thing I hated... and it's just little things piling up.
Sorry, that went longer than I intended, and wasn't entirely about the elves. I'm gonna have to build something of my own is the simple truth of matters.
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Your're absolutely right.
A race that in a biological since was sexually fluid, couldn't be matriarchal or patriarchal. At least not in the same way that humans would see it.
They aren't sexually fluid. I'm not sure where anyone got this idea. Lashunta can't change or decide their sex (at least, not any more easily than humans can).
Are the stat modifiers the same as before respectively?
+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 char vs +2 Char, +2 Int, -2 con
First off, the Gap has kind of bugged me, but I was mostly not caring about it because it didn't matter for the most part. The last few bits I'd heard about it was that for the most part it was ignored by people because it was far enough in the past... except when it comes to elves. Great, whatever. But then they took the xenophobia/arrogance which made a fair number of people hate elves in the 2nd Ed Book of Elves, and which appeared in Second Darkness and utterly appalled me, and made it worse.
I would rather have seen the elves utterly flip out and go on a crusade to find whatever caused the Gap to ensure that it never happened again. I would have liked seeing them maybe merging magic, biotech, and nanotech to make trees and other plantlife grow ships and semi-living equipment. I would have liked to have seen them actually grow as a species for once, maybe driving through their skulls that they aren't 'better than everyone else', since that's the trait everyone seems to hate, yet keeps ending up front and center.
Instead we got this. It's draining and disappointing to me, because in so many ways I see more eye to eye with Paizo's developers than many of the people I see posting on the boards, but more and more I find myself drifting away because of recent material or setting decisions. First was a year of Cheliax, followed by Strange Aeons and 'Red Hand of Doom'...
Those are some pretty awesome ideas - reminds me a little of some of the biotech in the Saga series - did you ever see the Rocketship Forest of Cleave, filled with living, plant-based starships? It was kick ass. Since Eox is doing stuff with magical bones, it shouldn't be too far-fetched to expect some similar types of technology sprout from future Starfinder supplements.
Also, your entire second paragraph made me think "this is exactly what a Forlorn Elf would say." I'm not entirely convinced Paizo isn't already incorporating some of these things into Starfinder's universe. While the focus is not on elves or traditional races, and hence the simplistic introduction, I could very well see factional splits between many of the common races in Starfinder, between people that double down on tradition, and other people that adapt and evolve in new ways into this new galactic society - giving each individual GM the ability to explore what they like about each race, whether it be the familiar or the new. I'm definitely intrigued to hear more about Forlorn Elves, personally, before I can say with confidence that Starfinder's elves are just same old, same old. There's a lot to be unpacked yet. In fact, one of the first things I seem to recall the developers talking about in their approach to the game was, instead of creating a campaign setting that was doing bold, revolutionary things with sci-fi and fantasy as a genre, was instead to create a template that was familiar but flexible enough that people could interpret the world according to their own tastes, and shape it in whatever way they want. Being "all things for all people."
Regardless, I'd love to hear about your own campaign setting here on the boards when you get that going. A Starfinder universe exploring an alternate approach to elves sounds awesome - I might steal a few things from you in my own game!
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Is there a particular event or rite of passage that marks an adolescent's ascension into Damaya or Korasha, or is it a very passive transition? Seems like this transformation would be a very spiritual and defining characteristic of Lashunta culture. Is it purely a biological adaptation, or is some magic involved in the process?
I'm very curious about how this works, and excited by all the hooks it brings: a background of culturally embedded gender roles, dimorphism, castes, political diversity, and potential exciting rites of passages to fulfill - all wrapped up in a single race. Lashunta are quickly becoming one of Starfinder's most fascinating cultures.
Gonna chime in and say I'd be interested in hearing more about this aspect of Lashunta culture too.
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Those are some pretty awesome ideas - reminds me a little of some of the biotech in the Saga series - did you ever see the Rocketship Forest of Cleave, filled with living, plant-based starships? It was kick ass. Since Eox is doing stuff with magical bones, it shouldn't be too far-fetched to expect some similar types of technology sprout from future Starfinder supplements.Also, your entire second paragraph made me think "this is exactly what a Forlorn Elf would say." I'm not entirely convinced Paizo isn't already incorporating some of these things into Starfinder's universe. While the focus is not on elves or traditional races, and hence the simplistic introduction, I could very well see factional splits between many of the common races in Starfinder, between people that double down on tradition, and other people that adapt and evolve in new ways into this new galactic society - giving each individual GM the ability to explore what they like about each race, whether it be the familiar or the new. I'm definitely intrigued to hear more about Forlorn Elves, personally, before I can say with confidence that Starfinder's elves are just same old, same old. There's a lot to be unpacked yet. In fact, one of the first things I seem to recall the developers talking about in their approach to the game was, instead of creating a campaign setting that was doing bold, revolutionary things with sci-fi and fantasy as a genre, was instead to create a template that was familiar but flexible enough that people could interpret the world according to their own tastes, and shape it in whatever way they want. Being "all things for all people."
Regardless, I'd love to hear about your own campaign setting here on the boards when you get that going. A Starfinder universe exploring an alternate approach to elves sounds awesome - I might steal a few things from you in my own game!
Not a bit. The closest inspiration for the concept of the plant-ships was when I read part of Hyperion, but that was it.
As to my eventual campaign, I doubt I'll end up writing much down, and if I do, it's far more likely to be put into a novel. I'm an author, so using what I make in a book that'll make me money just makes sense. *shrugs*
I suspect Elves being extremely xenophobic is as much making sure their is a reason for them not being a core race as it is about anything else.
My initial read on the Lashunta in the preview disappointed me, but Crystal's explanation made things make a lot more sense. Although its not a deal killer for me either which way since I naturally gravitate towards the Shirren/Vesk/Ysoki. I mean if I am going to play Alien I am going to play ALIEN.
Really, its more the use of the term "subspecies" more than anything else. Those are not subspecies, those are "morphs" or something. This comes from someone who has written several peer-reviewed papers dealing with what the hell subspecies are.
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I suspect Elves being extremely xenophobic is as much making sure their is a reason for them not being a core race as it is about anything else.
My initial read on the Lashunta in the preview disappointed me, but Crystal's explanation made things make a lot more sense. Although its not a deal killer for me either which way since I naturally gravitate towards the Shirren/Vesk/Ysoki. I mean if I am going to play Alien I am going to play ALIEN.
Really, its more the use of the term "subspecies" more than anything else. Those are not subspecies, those are "morphs" or something. This comes from someone who has written several peer-reviewed papers dealing with what the hell subspecies are.
And halflings are not a different "race" than humans, they're a different species. We are imperfect.
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A colony of insects is usually Matriarchal because it always has a Queen and never a King, and it is sexist, because males are reduced to the role of carriers of genetic information from one female (its mother) to the next (its mate) and with some species it sometimes ends up as food for its mate. Is that sexually dimorphic enough for you?But it clearly states that they are a Matriarchal Society. Which means it's still "Problematic" and "Sexist".When the majority of historic societies and governments are patriarchal, having one or two matriarchal ones does not make the matriarchal ones "problematic" or "sexist".
A colony of non-sentient creatures -- in this case, insects -- can't be sexist.
I believe the creature from the Alien Movies is based on that of insects, there is a new movie out called [u]Alien Covenant[/u] which is the latest in the Alien series. Do you want any of those in your Starfinder series? I think the alien from the movie Alien is problematic for a lot of people, most would not want those on their starship!
The xenomorphs from the Aliens / Prometheus franchise have a completely alien mindset and society. We have observed they are exceptionally clever and tenacious predators, but I'm not sure we know for certain they are actually sentient. Anyway, I don't think most people tend to expect bad guys to model egalitarian behaviors, because: bad guys.
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If anyone feels there is a need to continue this "matriarchal = sexism" discussion, would you at least move it over to a new separate thread, and stop derailing this one?
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Yeah, further research into ants have revealed less of an authoritarian style of rule and something more akin to anarcho-mutualism. But they have such simple nervous systems that no one it really in charge, not even the queen and drones. So you can't attach a human government to an animal species that are essentially automatons. Most of their actions are run by a complex array of pheromones, not independent thought.
Also some colonies have multiple queens and ants don't each their males. That's more of a spider/mantis thing. Also the drones (breeding males and females) represent an important part of keeping the hive alive and making a new one. Fun fact, ants and bees reproduce haplodiploidly, which means that unfertilized eggs are always female while fertilized eggs are always male. This makes an unusual generation precedence where male drones have no fathers or sons, but they have grandfathers and grandsons.
I think it's a good idea to read about ants before using them as an example. They are fairly surprising. I know all this because I made an entire race of ant-like people for a game I am running.
The thing about the gap is it would seperate populations culturally in the same way as physical seperation seperates populations genetically.So imagine a distant world in another system colonised by elves before/during the Gap period. They might react in a competely different way. So if the GM wants imperialistic crusading elves they can have them (whilst still using th official universe).
Yes, the GM could. But as far as I'm concerned, it'll be just as easy, if not easier, to make up my own universe since the core setting material will have no support for what I'm doing.
Anyway, no one is going to convince me. These are my personal feelings, and I'm trying to let Paizo know that what they did in this particular case and recently disappoints at least one person.
The thing about the gap is it would seperate populations culturally in the same way as physical seperation seperates populations genetically.So imagine a distant world in another system colonised by elves before/during the Gap period. They might react in a competely different way. So if the GM wants imperialistic crusading elves they can have them (whilst still using th official universe).
Yes, the GM could. But as far as I'm concerned, it'll be just as easy, if not easier, to make up my own universe since the core setting material will have no support for what I'm doing.
Anyway, no one is going to convince me. These are my personal feelings, and I'm trying to let Paizo know that what they did in this particular case and recently disappoints at least one person.
I have mixed feelings on the setting of Starfinder. I love the aliens and the Drift, but I hate the Gap and the current treatment of elves. I'll probably do what I usually do and cannibalize parts of it I like to use with the stuff I've made up.
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you know, if you want to actually see some REAL sexual dimorphism, I would love if the Ceratoidi (might have slightly misspelled the name) were brought into Starfinder as a playable race. Anglerfish folk for the win!
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Apparently there is a community on Castrovel that I have been hearing about for decades on public radio: "Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average." So presumably most of the women are Korasha and most of the men are Damaya. I have no clue how that makes all the children above average.
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I have no clue how that makes all the children above average.
It's the bonus to intelligence.
Good point. That means that they must be describing the community to members of offworld races who don't automatically get that bonus.
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And halflings are not a different "race" than humans, they're a different species. We are imperfect.I suspect Elves being extremely xenophobic is as much making sure their is a reason for them not being a core race as it is about anything else.
My initial read on the Lashunta in the preview disappointed me, but Crystal's explanation made things make a lot more sense. Although its not a deal killer for me either which way since I naturally gravitate towards the Shirren/Vesk/Ysoki. I mean if I am going to play Alien I am going to play ALIEN.
Really, its more the use of the term "subspecies" more than anything else. Those are not subspecies, those are "morphs" or something. This comes from someone who has written several peer-reviewed papers dealing with what the hell subspecies are.
Always found those terms were interchangeable in Pathfinder given the main species book is called the Advanced Race Guide.
I am sure we have actual biologists on the forums who could correct me but since darn near everything on Golarion can bone and produce viable offspring that themselves can go on to produce even more offspring of the same or even more crazy mash ups... wouldnt that make most sapient life forms part of the same species? If we have quarter elf, quarter orc, half humans with racial heritage of of Dwarves and mixed bloodlines of dragons and elementals... we may need to redefine some terms for use in the setting.And halflings are not a different "race" than humans, they're a different species. We are imperfect.I suspect Elves being extremely xenophobic is as much making sure their is a reason for them not being a core race as it is about anything else.
My initial read on the Lashunta in the preview disappointed me, but Crystal's explanation made things make a lot more sense. Although its not a deal killer for me either which way since I naturally gravitate towards the Shirren/Vesk/Ysoki. I mean if I am going to play Alien I am going to play ALIEN.
Really, its more the use of the term "subspecies" more than anything else. Those are not subspecies, those are "morphs" or something. This comes from someone who has written several peer-reviewed papers dealing with what the hell subspecies are.
Always found those terms were interchangeable in Pathfinder given the main species book is called the Advanced Race Guide.
Humans can only seem to reproduce with select species to produce true half-humans. Bloodlines are not always related to reproduction but can also pertain to other more magical backgrounds. For instance, a human can reproduce with an elf, but they can't reproduce with a dwarf. That doesn't mean they can't try (they're humans after all), but nothing would really come of it. Mystical beings with polymorphic powers also seem to be another exception to the rule. Also, because humans and elves (and orcs as well) can create fertile individuals, this would implie that in the scientific sense orcs, elves, and any other race capable of breeding with humans without any magical or scientific means (sorry dragons and angels) would actually be different "races" or the same species (humans). That said, trying to convince an orc or an elf they're actually a human may result with an axe to the head or an arrow in the back. The offspring of mystical races would also likely be categorized as still being of the human species if they could reproduce and breed fertile offspring. So aasimar, dhampirs (though they apparently have a hard time reproducing, they can do so), and likely many others would also be, in the scientific sense, humans. Dwarves, gnomes, and halflings however can not breed with humans so they wouldn't be considered humans.
Defining what is and isn't its own species is harder than you might think; it's called the species problem. While we do usually use Mayr's Biological Species Concept, it does have some problems, particularly when it comes to microspecies/species complexes, hybrids, and of course ring species, the latter two of which seem most applicable to the subject at hand.
Mayr's Biological Species Concept seemed enough at the time for categorizing near human species (I was up late last night).
Hulk smart!Doctor Bruce Banner is smart. Hulk... is angry.
Don't tell Hulk that.
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Entirely possible that there IS a result when you breed orcs and elves. It's called a human :D
Yeah, I'm just hesitant to declare that they're all the same species; I would actually lean towards them being a ring species, since elves can breed with humans, and orcs can breed with humans, but I don't believe it's been said anywhere that elves and orcs can successfully interbreed...no more than humans and dwarves, at any rate. Though of course this will obviously depend on each GM's individual preference, some people enjoy muls, I believe they were called, even if they haven't been published by Paizo. And of course, I can also imagine some GMs choosing to disallow various hybrid races if it doesn't fit their setting...Defining what is and isn't its own species is harder than you might think; it's called the species problem. While we do usually use Mayr's Biological Species Concept, it does have some problems, particularly when it comes to microspecies/species complexes, hybrids, and of course ring species, the latter two of which seem most applicable to the subject at hand.Mayr's Biological Species Concept seemed enough at the time for categorizing near human species (I was up late last night).
It's been said that humans and dwarves in golarion can't interbreed. Although it's never been explicitly states half-orcs can be formed from orcs and elves, so that's definitely something I overlooked.
Huh. I said it a joke first, but now I'm starting to think about it. Elves are from Castrovel. Orcs from Golarion. Elves explore. Somehow, someway or another, some mate and make humans. The majority see this as awful. Half breeds. They're cast out. Explains why elves are so snooty abs orcs hate them. They breed with each other. Make more humans. Occasionally, a human breeds with over our the other, giving us half orcs and half elves. Orcs don't keep track. Elves hide their shame. Bam.
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So I feel like, and the way I would play it up in my games is that Elves aren't necessarily xenophobic or elitist but rather are dealing with a-lot of trauma which has made them closed off from the rest of the world. Their pain, and their attempt to deal with such a thing leads them to appear aloof and distant. Older Elves have even less of a reason to get attached to younger lived races BECAUSE they might not even have memories of them one day. What if the gap happens again? Would they be able to survive another situation.
I absolutely love the evolution of the Lashunta and a retcon via new information that expands on the previous.