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Looks like it is a Javelin, but I'm double checking.
If I have a fighter with the Spears/Thrown Weapon Training, Weapon Focus (Javelin), and/or Weapon Specialization (Javelin), do the bonuses to attack and damage with Javelins apply to when the fighter throws the Javelin of Lightning?
Also, if my character is Small, and I want a Javelin of Lightning sized for me, does it deal 4d6 damage because of the size decrease?
I think it mimics the spell lightning bolt. It's not a weapon, there's no attack roll. You activate it and it shoots along a 120 ft. line.
Until you throw it, it is a javelin. You can use it as a melee weapon (with the non-proficiency penalty), store it in the middle compartment of an Efficient Quiver, etc. But when you throw it it becomes an AoE spell and is no longer a weapon. So there is no attack roll, Str bonuses to damage, damage reduction due to size, or any of the other adjustments that you mentioned.
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I think it mimics the spell lightning bolt. It's not a weapon, there's no attack roll. You activate it and it shoots along a 120 ft. line.
It's listed under "specific weapons" in the magic weapon section. Says it's a Javelin and says it's thrown.
It does require lightning bolt to create, though. And it does say it becomes a lightning bolt when thrown, but if it's just meant as a lightning bolt, why is it listed in the weapons? Why not a Wonderous item, if it isn't considered weapon, I mean.
Are there any other weapons that act like wondrous items in the wondrous items list?
Ultimately, it's a weapon. People are going to expect to find them with the other weapons.
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Are there any other weapons that act like wondrous items in the wondrous items list?
Ultimately, it's a weapon. People are going to expect to find them with the other weapons.
I suppose, but if it is a weapon, and that weapon is a Javelin, and I get bonus damage with Javelins, wouldn't I get bonus Damage with this item?
In a similar respect, if I had a Flame Tongue, which is a named Longsword, and I had weapon training with longswords, would the bonus attack and damage for longswords apply to the "fiery ray" it can do once per day?
I'm sure not seeing anything in the CRB that suggests that the extra abilities of magical weapons are not considered part of the weapon for the purposes of weapon specific bonuses to attack and damage.
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No, definitely not , never.
In what respect is a 120 foot long, 5 foot wide bolt of lightning a Javalin?
Answer none.
So no feats with a Javalin help.
The fiery ray question is in fact even more pointless.
I know some cheesy powergamers and none of them would try this one on.
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It appears your ranged attack gets replaced with a lightning bolt spell. But even going with the more powerful ruling, that's a really expensive single use item, so it's not like you can abuse it. I fail to see meaningful cheese.
I think it mimics the spell lightning bolt. It's not a weapon, there's no attack roll. You activate it and it shoots along a 120 ft. line.It's listed under "specific weapons" in the magic weapon section. Says it's a Javelin and says it's thrown.
It does require lightning bolt to create, though. And it does say it becomes a lightning bolt when thrown, but if it's just meant as a lightning bolt, why is it listed in the weapons? Why not a Wonderous item, if it isn't considered weapon, I mean.
Because it is a weapon until it is thrown. So you could store it in a Weapon Tattoo or Gauntlets of the Weaponmaster. You could cast Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon on it and gain those benefits when using it as a melee weapon. You would be considered armed if holding it, so you would threaten at 5' and could make attacks of opportunity with it.
But when you throw it, it becomes a lightning bolt. It doesn't cast a lightning bolt like a wand would. Once you throw it, the javelin isn't a javelin anymore. It is now an AoE spell, and the bonuses you mentioned don't apply to AoE spells.
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No, definitely not , never.
In what respect is a 120 foot long, 5 foot wide bolt of lightning a Javalin?
In the respect that it calls itself a Javelin in both name and description, and is listed under weapons.
So, sake of argument, what is your rules basis here?
The Lightning Javelin, described as: "This javelin...."
Doesn't really seem like powergaming, to have a weapon master in Javelins get bonuses when using a Javelin....even if it is a magical Javelin. There might be a rule here I'm missing, but I sure can't find it.
Flame Tongue is described as: "This is a +1 flaming burst longsword. Once per day, the sword can blast forth a fiery ray at any target within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 4d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit."
Why would longsword bonuses to attack and damage not apply? Very clearly described as a longsword. And the description, as made bold by me, describes the fiery ray coming from the sword. So why doesn't skill with swords apply here?
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Because it is a weapon until it is thrown. So you could store it in a Weapon Tattoo or Gauntlets of the Weaponmaster. You could cast Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon on it and gain those benefits when using it as a melee weapon. You would be considered armed if holding it, so you would threaten at 5' and could make attacks of opportunity with it.
But when you throw it, it becomes a lightning bolt. It doesn't cast a lightning bolt like a wand would. Once you throw it, the javelin isn't a javelin anymore. It is now an AoE spell, and the bonuses you mentioned don't apply to AoE spells.
From the PRD regarding Fighter's Weapon Training:
"Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls."
If I throw the weapon from this group, and it becomes something else, it should still gain the +1 on attack and damage, because the act of throwing it is an attack.
Regarding spells, the use of the special ability on a magic weapon is not a spell, as far as I know. It would still cease functioning in an anti-magic field, but I don't think that makes it a spell.
Regarding AoE, unless it's been FAQed otherwise, the Fighter weapon training should apply to firearms with scatter weapon property, since the restrictions on that is limited to precision damage and damage increasing feats, of which the fighter weapon training is neither. So applying the fighter weapon training to AoE effects is not something unheard of.
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This javelin becomes a 5d6 lightning bolt when thrown
Once you throw it, it ceases to be a javelin. Your weapon training bonus does not apply to lightning bolts.
Arguably I can kind of see that your bonus to hit might, maybe, possibly, apply, but as it is an AoE that doesn't require a to hit roll it doesn't really matter.
Lightning bolts do not benefit from point blank shot, enhancement bonuses to hit and damage (in case someone thought creating a +2 javelin of lightning or something would be a good idea).
It belongs in the weapon section, because it is a weapon, and your weapon training, weapon focus, weapon specialisation etc all apply - right up until you throw it and it becomes a lightning bolt.
Regarding spells, the use of the special ability on a magic weapon is not a spell, as far as I know. It would still cease functioning in an anti-magic field, but I don't think that makes it a spell.
Lightning bolt is a spell. This isn't a Weapon Special Ability like "returning" or "bane." This is a normal javelin until you throw it. Then it isn't a javelin - it is a 120' long area of effect.
You keep referring to getting bonuses to your attack roll. How can get bonuses to an attack roll that doesn't exist?
To be clear, we know that it means the spell named lightning bolt because they put it in italics. So it's not just generically a bolt of lightning.
"Weapon Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls."
If I throw the weapon from this group, and it becomes something else, it should still gain the +1 on attack and damage, because the act of throwing it is an attack.
Regarding spells, the use of the special ability on a magic weapon is not a spell, as far as I know. It would still cease functioning in an anti-magic field, but I don't think that makes it a spell.
Regarding AoE, unless it's been FAQed otherwise, the Fighter weapon training should apply to firearms with scatter weapon property, since the restrictions on that is limited to precision damage and damage increasing feats, of which the fighter weapon training is neither. So applying the fighter weapon training to AoE effects is not something unheard of.
Even if it was still a javelin and not a lightning bolt in the hypothetical scenario you put forth (which it isn't - definitely becomes a lightning bolt), the act of throwing it is not an attack. There's no attack roll being made, so things that add to attack or damage on attack rolls don't apply to a Javelin of Lightning being used in this way.
It's not a fighter's Weapon Training (+ a few points of damage) that would potentially be broken if it was ruled the way you are suggesting. Rather everything else that can be applied to attacks, like Sneak Attack or a swashbuckler's bonus damage that might be extremely cheesy.
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There's a whole chain of fuzzy logic there. Sure, it's a javelin until it's thrown, but once it is, it stops being a javelin and becomes something else, and the new rules or conditions apply.
Read Weapon Training (Ex). As written, Weapon training requires only that you attack with the weapon, and then you gain bonuses the listed bonuses on attack and damage. It doesn't specify damage with that weapon, but is a reasonable assumption (in most cases) since most weapons remain that weapon for the entire attack.
If I throw a Javelin at you, it's considered an attack. Doesn't matter if there is an attack roll or it resolves as an AoE, I get the weapon training bonuses because I made an attack with that weapon. That's what weapon training says it does.
In the case of weapon training, this is not a combat feat, but an actual class ability, though I don't know if it being a feat or class ability changes anything.
Now if Javelin of Lightning was a Wonderous Item which was not a weapon, and functioned as a lightning bolt when thrown, then I totally agree that it being a javelin has no bearing. This isn't the case, though, instead, it described as a Javelin twice and listed as a magic weapon.
If I throw a Javelin at you, it's considered an attack. Doesn't matter if there is an attack roll or it resolves as an AoE, I get the weapon training bonuses because I made an attack with that weapon. That's what weapon training says it does.
Why? Nothing in the rules indicates that it's an attack. You are using an item that mimics the effects of a spell that is not an attack. If it was just a magic weapon that you would make attack rolls with, like most other magic weapons, you could apply these bonuses to said attack rolls. As Gisher stated, if you use it as a melee weapon you could apply any bonuses and penalties that you would normally apply to any other javelin. But the specific text for this item trumps the general rules for determining what happens when you throw this at someone.
This javelin becomes a 5d6 lightning bolt when thrown (Reflex DC 14 half). It is consumed in the attack.
This specific text states that it becomes a 5d6 lightning bolt when thrown. It doesn't change the damage of a ranged attack with this weapon to 5d6 electricity damage; it becomes a 5d6 lightning bolt that functions as the spell Lightning Bolt. Weapon Training in Spears or Thrown categories do not apply to Lightning Bolts.
Also, if my character is Small, and I want a Javelin of Lightning sized for me, does it deal 4d6 damage because of the size decrease?
Changing the size of the creature using the item has no effect on the damage in the same way that being a different size does not affect the damage of any spell. A diminutive creature and a gargantuan creature casting fireball would deal the same amount of damage if they were the same caster level.
Your own quote says it's an attack...
So when you use this item, do you roll an attack roll to hit the target? Or do you use the rules for the Lightning Bolt spell?
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Why did you come on to the forums to ask the question if you've already made up your mind and are going to argue vehemently against anyone who says otherwise?
Why did you come on to the forums to ask the question if you've already made up your mind and are going to argue vehemently against anyone who says otherwise?
Welcome to the internet.
On Topic:
It's a Lightning Bolt, not a javelin once thrown. You don't get the bonuses to it from Javelins. As soon as it is thrown, it ceases to exist as a Javelin.
Your own quote says it's an attack...
Yes, it is an attack... made with a lightning bolt. Is lightning bolt in your Fighter Weapon Group?
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No, definitely not , never.
In what respect is a 120 foot long, 5 foot wide bolt of lightning a Javalin?
In the respect that it calls itself a Javelin in both name and description, and is listed under weapons.
So, sake of argument, what is your rules basis here?
The Lightning Javelin, described as: "This javelin...."
Doesn't really seem like powergaming, to have a weapon master in Javelins get bonuses when using a Javelin....even if it is a magical Javelin. There might be a rule here I'm missing, but I sure can't find it.
Flame Tongue is described as: "This is a +1 flaming burst longsword. Once per day, the sword can blast forth a fiery ray at any target within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 4d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit."
Why would longsword bonuses to attack and damage not apply? Very clearly described as a longsword. And the description, as made bold by me, describes the fiery ray coming from the sword. So why doesn't skill with swords apply here?
No..no.....Just....NO.
"I'm Fighty Mc Fighterson who's a master at swinging a blade....which means I'm better at shooting beams of fire from my sword." Really?
In fact I'd say that if you have Point Blank Shot, Precise shot or similar feats, they should apply the same way they do for spellcasters using rays. But melee feats won't affect your ability to carry out a ranged attack just because it's with the same weapon.
Your own quote says it's an attack...Yes, it is an attack... made with a lightning bolt. Is lightning bolt in your Fighter Weapon Group?
"Attack" is a vague term in the rules. According to the Magic chapter, any aggressive action can be considered an "attack".
"Attack" is a vague term in the rules. According to the Magic chapter, any aggressive action can be considered an "attack".Your own quote says it's an attack...Yes, it is an attack... made with a lightning bolt. Is lightning bolt in your Fighter Weapon Group?
Exactly.
Javelin of Lightning is an heritage from other games. You could make, say, a Goblin Doll of Lightning with the same mechanincs (same dmg and DC) and name it Doll of Happy Sparkles, and since the effect ingame is the same the cost in gold results unchanged. You just throw it and it behaves like a Lighning Bolt.
What I'm trying to say is that there are some coincidences that can lead to misunderstandings. The fact that one needs the feat to craft weapons and it's a javelin is because of the flavor that evokes the myths that inspired the design (Thor, Odin, Talos, etc). And it's seems so overpriced because normally items that can be used by anyone have that much cost.
So, in a short answer to your question: it isn't. Although if by mutual consensus from the GM and the players everyone want's to treat it as such well then, who am I to argue.
My two cents.
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Yeah, I'm firmly in the group that says you don't get your fighter bonuses to the "attack", but I don't see why people are acting like it'd be so horrible if you did. It's just a little bonus on something that you can't afford to do all of the time, anyway.
Yeah, I'm firmly in the group that says you don't get your fighter bonuses to the "attack", but I don't see why people are acting like it'd be so horrible if you did. It's just a little bonus on something that you can't afford to do all of the time, anyway.
I think because, as stated before, it opens it up to things such as sneak attack and swashbuckler's bonus damage and things like that.
That still sounds like fairly small numbers that are rather expensive to replicate.
But, I could have sworn there was already a rule preventing attacks that don't have an attack roll from benefitting from precision damage.
But, I could have sworn there was already a rule preventing attacks that don't have an attack roll from benefitting from precision damage.
In 3.5, can't remember the books. But what I still remember is a rogue sneak-obliterating an enemy with 3 scorching rays as touch attack with precision damage. Pretty balanced indeed.
Edited//
Not anymore in pathfinder thankfully.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qqm
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Thread necro: it's a 1,500gp one shot item.. nuff said! as a GM I'd allow a ftr to throw it, strike AND THEN blow it up in a 120 foot line of electricity! who can afford this stuff at any level anyways??? this sounds like a GM McGuffin you give to a 'rich mob' of 1HD commoners...