Does bladed brush let me choose a glaive as a black blade?
"When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"
"A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
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Maybe? This seems to me like another one for the ever-expanding file of "does changing a weapon's properties through feats or other effects allow it to qualify for effects it normally wouldn't?" Maybe we'll get a nice, big FAQ on the subject someday. ^_^
My current verdict: expect table variation.
Maybe? This seems to me like another one for the ever-expanding file of "does changing a weapon's properties through feats or other effects allow it to qualify for effects it normally wouldn't?" Maybe we'll get a nice, big FAQ on the subject someday. ^_^
My current verdict: expect table variation.
continuation of the quote from bladed brush: "...for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon"
Its just a matter of if it counts because it says "when wielding a glaive", which means it isnt always treated as such, so does that mean you'd need to wield it for 24h for it to qualify?
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Hm, i don't really see as its that big of a balance issue, but I also kind of note that black blades are kind of fluffed as a separate thing rather than a mere class feature. (even though they're a class feature).
The description that a black blade is always a one handed slashing weapon, rapier, or sword cane kind of makes me think the answer is no. but if i were GMing i'd rule of cool it as ok, you're already burning like three or four feats just to dex fight with a low crit range weapon on a magus, i kind of doubt there's going to be much in the way of OP coming from it that you wouldn't see far worse out of a magus who just takes the scimitar for critting touch spells.
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Does bladed brush let me choose a glaive as a black blade?
"When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"
"A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
bladed brush text is very awkward and has generated a lot of questions on these lines. The bad text notwithstanding, I will say that it don't allow you to select the glaive as a Black blade.
The requirement for a black blade is
A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane.
When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
"You can treat it" don't place the glaive in the "one handed slashing weapon" category, it simply allow you to use it as one. The requirement for the black blade is to be in that category, or to be a rapier or a sword cane.
Yup, sounds about right.
Thanks :)
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Does bladed brush let me choose a glaive as a black blade?
"When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"
"A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
bladed brush text is very awkward and has generated a lot of questions on these lines. The bad text notwithstanding, I will say that it don't allow you to select the glaive as a Black blade.
The requirement for a black blade is
A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane.When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike)."You can treat it" don't place the glaive in the "one handed slashing weapon" category, it simply allow you to use it as one. The requirement for the black blade is to be in that category, or to be a rapier or a sword cane.
for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon
Black Blade is a class ability that requires such a weapon.
From my perspective, its the "when wielding a glaive" part that causes issues, given that when it's not being wielded its not being treated as a one handed slashing weapon - so its not likely its able to be a black blade, given that black blades are special types of items and aren't situational things that only exist while being wielded, they're supposed to function at all times, which they can't do with the wording of bladed brush.
So, despite me asking the question and thinking it would be a cool idea, by RAW i'm pretty sure it's a no.
When a Player comes to me as GM with an idea which needs a thesaurus and a degree in Linguistics to explain how something works the answer is 'No'.
If it doesn't feel right 9/10 it isn't.
A glaive is always a two handed weapon.
The feat doesn't change the physical properties of the glaive. It is still a two handed weapon.
Blackblade requires it to be one handed slashing weapon, rapier or sword cane. A glaive simple isn't. 'As if...' doesn't mean 'Is..'
The whole concept of the Blackblade Magus is for wanna-be Elrics.
Ask your GM. They have the final word.
My 2cps for what it is worth.
On the fluff side of it, I really doubt that Shelyn would be OK with her granted ability (the feat) being used to make a black blade glaive possible. Definitely would be at least a symbolic victory for her brother's corrupters.
I understand the loathing many of you have for fluffy logic, but just sayin' anyway.
Don't you mean flavorful.
Fluff is kind of derogatory towards the writers.
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I rather like the term fluffy, and am no longer willing to grant the power to those who want to make it an insult. With its "Eat This" connotations, flavor isn't much safer anyway. I would use "thematic", but it would just confuse and probably irritate people.
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If you want to insult the people that are insulted by it just so to prove it's not insulting that's up to you.
For the record, I also rather like thematic, and I'll try to use it, so thanks!
"At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade"
"A black blade is always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
"When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon"
You'd need to be wielding it before you even received it...
Bladed brush is a great & versatile feat, but this is one thing it cannot do.
Don't you mean flavorful.
Fluff is kind of derogatory towards the writers.
I've never thought of it as such.
Some people buy the books for the background and story, some for the mechanics and some want both. 'Crunch' and 'fluff' are just monikers placed on these concepts as shorthand. The only difference in them is that the 'fluff' is normally mutable without changing the underlying rules of the game while modifying the 'crunch' isn't.
The only way I can see 'fluff' as "derogatory" is if you think of it as sacred and untouchable. Myself, I'm always up for re-'fluffing' something to better fit my needs and I don't think I used a "derogatory" word to describe my own actions. One can appreciate the hard work that went into decorating a home but also understand that it can all be torn out and replaced if you want to.
In the end, the 'fluff' isn't required to play the game, hence fluff, but that places no judgement on it's quality. The work might be top notch, but if I'm not playing in Golarion then all of it's lore, background and locals aren't meaningful to the game I'm playing.
And "thematic"? If you use that, my guess is people aren't going to know what you mean by that the way fluff is understood. It'd "just confuse and probably irritate people" as DAW put it.
SillyString: You can ask the same question about other things. For instance, I take an odd Kensai and take shield as my chosen weapon. I take the trait Shield-Trained and now my shield can't be a chosen weapon because now it's a simple weapon.
On the Bladebound, the feat could be seen as altering how the bladebound feature sees a glaive. The "When wielding" part is kind of meaningless as ALL the weapon designations only happen when they are wielded. For instance, can I take a small glaive on a medium sized magus? It's "a one-handed slashing weapon". Then what happens if I add Iron Lord's Transforming Slivers? Now it's a medium sized weapon I treat as a one handed slashing weapon. It's most likely against the RAI, but the archetype never mentions appropriately sized as a requirement. As such, light and two handed appropriate sized weapons could be taken inappropriately sized and later altered with the slivers.
PS: As to why a kensai would pick shield; retraining + unhindered shield + Upsetting Shield Style + Improved Shield Bash could make it viable at 9th+.
Oh yeah, if we're talking about inappropriately sized weapons then that's a whole 'nuther bag of cats.
But as far as bladed brush and appropriate sized glaives go, its only treated as 1h slashing when being wielded, as per the feat text. So any appropriate sized glaive that you arent wielding is still a 2h weapon.
Unless you're somehow wielding the black blade before it's given to you it'd still be a 2h weapon that's only being treated as a 2h weapon. (which a black blade cant be)
As written the feat doesnt affect glaives which arent yet being wielded, ruling otherwise sounds like a house-rule, or something that should be backed up by developers / errata / FAQ as specifically being allowed.
OK, Graystone.
You do understand Cap's point that for the vast majority of people on the forum, evidently including yourself from your post, that Fluff is inconsequential. So is Flavor. Your preference, but you should recognize it is Preference and not Gospel. You ignore the thematic content, you do kind of rip the meaning out of the game. OK for the Monster of the Day playstyle, but not so good for a storytelling one. The thematics bring you "closer" to the setting. For some, a coherent setting is important, for others it is an annoyance.
You aren't wrong, but neither is Cap.
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This is just begging for the thematics of why this is restricted to Shelyin's followers.
- In taking the Archetypal Glaive from her corrupted brother and redeeming it, she Owns the weapon in a way no other does.
- Shelyn and her followers will tend to see combat in terms of a dance.
This just works thematically for Shelyn, allowing it to a non-Shelynite just cheapens it.
If you were placing it into a non-Golarian setting, you should at least have some myth backing it up. Taking the Cool out it is just cheap
(OK Cap, I'm trying here.)
When a Player comes to me as GM with an idea which needs a thesaurus and a degree in Linguistics to explain how something works the answer is 'No'.
If it doesn't feel right 9/10 it isn't.
A glaive is always a two handed weapon.
The feat doesn't change the physical properties of the glaive. It is still a two handed weapon.Blackblade requires it to be one handed slashing weapon, rapier or sword cane. A glaive simple isn't. 'As if...' doesn't mean 'Is..'
The whole concept of the Blackblade Magus is for wanna-be Elrics.
Ask your GM. They have the final word.
My 2cps for what it is worth.
It does not require a degree in linguistics. It requires a simple yes or no answer to one question.
Is Black Blade a class ability.
If the answer is yes, Bladed Brush allows glaives to qualify.
I welcome those of other forms into our organization. Especially when they are clear devotees of the deities of the Upper Planes.
On the fluff side of it, I really doubt that Shelyn would be OK with her granted ability (the feat) being used to make a black blade glaive possible. Definitely would be at least a symbolic victory for her brother's corrupters.
I understand the loathing many of you have for fluffy logic, but just sayin' anyway.
Unless your Magus worships her and the Black Blade Glaive was gifted to your Magus by Shelyn or one of her agents as a reward for said faith. Nothing in the description of the Black Blade flavor text says the intelligence in the blade can't worship or be the agent of a deity, after all.
But add me into the "it probably isn't intended for glaives to be Black Blades, but I'd let it happen if the player had a cool story to go along with it" camp.
Add me to the camp that it doesn't work because it only functions that way while wielded.
Since a black blade is always a one handed weapon, something that is only a one handed weapon while wielded (and is a 2 handed weapon at all other times) definitely seems like it doesn't work.
Aye, Snowlilly seems to be ignoring that.
As written, you'd need to already be wielding the black blade glaive as a weapon before you even select it as an option, which obviously you can't do, because you havn't been given it yet.
I don't blame people for trying to bend the rules for it though, glaive magi are pretty cool and the bladebound archetype is pretty cool, theres bound to be people that want both and wish that they could do it without house-ruling.
Ventnor, you do remember...
Bladed Brush (Combat)
Source Paths of the Righteous pg. 15
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Souless parsing, this is the rules forum, I think the edge goes to No. Thematic, it is at least VERY messed up in terms of Golarian mythlines.
Aye, Snowlilly seems to be ignoring that.Add me to the camp that it doesn't work because it only functions that way while wielded.
Since a black blade is always a one handed weapon, something that is only a one handed weapon while wielded (and is a 2 handed weapon at all other times) definitely seems like it doesn't work.
I'm not ignoring anything.
Bladed Brush states that it allows the user to count the glaive as a one-handed slashing weapon for purposes of resolving class abilities.
Your argument is that character X cannot use a class ability because characters A, B & C do not qualify while using character X's weapon of choice.
Not entirely:
Sometimes a black blade is passed down generation to generation in an ongoing search for a magus who can unlock its true potential.In other words, I can have the weapon in hand, it just isn't yet a functioning blackblade.
Not sure what you think that changes, a black blade is still "always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
That lovely bit of flavor text doesnt mean a weapon can suddenly turn into a black blade, just that a black blade can get more out of some magi than others. Presumably referring to the fact it increases in power with the magi's level.
I'm not ignoring anything.
Your argument is that character X cannot use a class ability because characters A, B & C do not qualify while using character X's weapon of choice.
My argument is that the feat clearly states "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon" Emphasis in BOLD
You cant select a black blade that's a glaive, because until you actually are weilding it specifically, it isn't treated as a 1h weapon.
There's no complex argument here, nothing involving other characters, just the simple text laid out in the feat.
Not entirely:
Sometimes a black blade is passed down generation to generation in an ongoing search for a magus who can unlock its true potential.In other words, I can have the weapon in hand, it just isn't yet a functioning blackblade.Not sure what you think that changes, a black blade is still "always a one-handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane."
That lovely bit of flavor text doesnt mean a weapon can suddenly turn into a black blade, just that a black blade can get more out of some magi than others. Presumably referring to the fact it increases in power with the magi's level.
In the hands of that specific individual, it is a one-handed slashing weapon.
How others regards the weapon is irrelevant.
In the hands of that specific individual, it is a one-handed slashing weapon.
How others regards the weapon is irrelevant.
Let's try repeating myself (because funsies - and you keep ignoring this part of the feat):
My argument is that the feat clearly states "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon" Emphasis in BOLD
You cant select a black blade that's a glaive, because until you actually are weilding it specifically, it isn't treated as a 1h weapon. (the weapon is only 1h once you pick it up and start wielding it, when being given the weapon by the class ability you have not yet started wielding it)
There's no complex argument here, nothing involving other characters, just the simple text laid out in the feat.
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When a Player comes to me as GM with an idea which needs a thesaurus and a degree in Linguistics to explain how something works the answer is 'No'.
If it doesn't feel right 9/10 it isn't.
A glaive is always a two handed weapon.
The feat doesn't change the physical properties of the glaive. It is still a two handed weapon.Blackblade requires it to be one handed slashing weapon, rapier or sword cane. A glaive simple isn't. 'As if...' doesn't mean 'Is..'
The whole concept of the Blackblade Magus is for wanna-be Elrics.
Ask your GM. They have the final word.
My 2cps for what it is worth.
It does not require a degree in linguistics. It requires a simple yes or no answer to one question.
Is Black Blade a class ability.
If the answer is yes, Bladed Brush allows glaives to qualify.
No, it doesn't. Black Blade isn't a class ability that requires you to wield a one jaded piercing weapon or to have your hand free. The black blade is a class ability that grants you an intelligent weapon that is a one handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. You can have the black blade and wield whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that the black blade on your hip is one of those specific types.
Ventnor, you do remember...
Bladed Brush (Combat)
Source Paths of the Righteous pg. 15
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
Souless parsing, this is the rules forum, I think the edge goes to No. Thematic, it is at least VERY messed up in terms of Golarian mythlines.
Wait, are you saying that Magi aren't allowed to worship Shelyn now? Because I agree that, at least handedness-wise, this won't work without a GM bending the rules.
Magi and black blades, as sentient beings, are both free to worship Shelyn if they want to.
No, it doesn't. Black Blade isn't a class ability that requires you to wield a one jaded piercing weapon or to have your hand free. The black blade is a class ability that grants you an intelligent weapon that is a one handed slashing weapon, a rapier, or a sword cane. You can have the black blade and wield whatever you want. It doesn't change the fact that the black blade on your hip is one of those specific types.
Agreed.
IF the bladed brush feat had the wording "You treat glaives as one handed piercing or slashing weapons for class abilities" then I'd be inclined to say the outcome would be different, or at least a grey area that could maybe lean towards allowing it.
As it stands, the wording is "When wielding a glaive, you can treat it" which clearly says it only is treated as such while wielded and only for the specific weapon being wielded, making it 0 chance of allowing a glaive black blade to be given/created by the bladebound archetype unless the magi is somehow already wielding the black blade before they are given it / before it is created. (if you have a GM that wishes to create a time paradox to allow it then so be it, while you're at it ask for the xp of all the monsters your character will kill in his life time up front too.)
Okay, I agree that it doesn't technically work for magi, since
At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus.
implying you can't have the exact weapon already.
However, that doesn't mean you can't get black blade glaives.
- Take the Blade Adept Arcanist archetype.
- it references the Wizard's arcane bond, but restricts to 1h P or S weapon
- Acquire Bladed Brush before Arcanist level 3
- Acquire a +1 glaive
- Break your default arcane bond
- Hold glaive, counting it as 1h for class features (for 8 hours, but whatever)
- Use "Designate existing magic item" clause of Arcane Bond, applying it to the glaive. (Ritual places no hand restrictions)
- Take Arcanist level 3, making your current Arcane Bond a Black Blade
Not that cheese is a bad thing!
So, if you take bladed brush and select glaive as your black blade, does it stop being a black blade while not wielded? what happens to arcane pool bound up in it when it stops being a black blade?
So, if you take bladed brush and select glaive as your black blade, does it stop being a black blade while not wielded? what happens to arcane pool bound up in it when it stops being a black blade?
Well, for a magus you cant. But for cheese-face's blade adept idea I have no clue, they're in too deep into the cheese pool for me. - Where RAI has no meaning and the stilton is strong.
OK, if the black blade, In and of itself is a sentient thing, and continues to exist after the Magus is inevitably toast, then it can't by rules parsing be a sword. If it is just a normal sword without the Magus, and/or can be reapplied to another sword if you lose the blade, then yes, it is a class ability masquerading as a separate item/entity. If this is the case, then the edge goes to Yes. Do I think that the ability is a rather over-literal homage to Stormbringer and its Moorcockian kin, well yes, but this is the Souless rules forums.
As to theme, well just a souless, "You can't convince me it could never happen," doesn't fly at my table. If you can make and roleplay an interesting story, maybe, if not, No.
you can however use a whip as your black blade
you can however use a whip as your black blade
Plot twist!
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Okay, I agree that it doesn't technically work for magi, since
At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus.implying you can't have the exact weapon already.
However, that doesn't mean you can't get black blade glaives.
- Take the Blade Adept Arcanist archetype.
- it references the Wizard's arcane bond, but restricts to 1h P or S weapon
- Acquire Bladed Brush before Arcanist level 3
- Acquire a +1 glaive
- Break your default arcane bond
- Hold glaive, counting it as 1h for class features (for 8 hours, but whatever)
- Use "Designate existing magic item" clause of Arcane Bond, applying it to the glaive. (Ritual places no hand restrictions)
- Take Arcanist level 3, making your current Arcane Bond a Black Blade
Not that cheese is a bad thing!
You can't enchant a Back blade, so "designating" an already enchanted weapon as a black blade seem a big no-no to me.
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OK, if the black blade, In and of itself is a sentient thing, and continues to exist after the Magus is inevitably toast, then it can't by rules parsing be a sword. If it is just a normal sword without the Magus, and/or can be reapplied to another sword if you lose the blade, then yes, it is a class ability masquerading as a separate item/entity. If this is the case, then the edge goes to Yes. Do I think that the ability is a rather over-literal homage to Stormbringer and its Moorcockian kin, well yes, but this is the Souless rules forums.
As to theme, well just a souless, "You can't convince me it could never happen," doesn't fly at my table. If you can make and roleplay an interesting story, maybe, if not, No.
The black blade is always the same item/entity from the stat of your career to the end.
If it is broken you can reforge it. The rules don't say if the reforged weapon shape should be the same as before: "If destroyed, the black blade can be reforged 1 week later through a special ritual that costs 200 gp per magus level. The ritual takes 24 hours to complete."
When a Player comes to me as GM with an idea which needs a thesaurus and a degree in Linguistics to explain how something works the answer is 'No'.
If it doesn't feel right 9/10 it isn't.
A glaive is always a two handed weapon.
The feat doesn't change the physical properties of the glaive. It is still a two handed weapon.Blackblade requires it to be one handed slashing weapon, rapier or sword cane. A glaive simple isn't. 'As if...' doesn't mean 'Is..'
The whole concept of the Blackblade Magus is for wanna-be Elrics.
Ask your GM. They have the final word.
My 2cps for what it is worth.
It does not require a degree in linguistics. It requires a simple yes or no answer to one question.
Is Black Blade a class ability.
If the answer is yes, Bladed Brush allows glaives to qualify.
FAQ and 20+ posts disagree.
FWI The feat doesn't change the physical properties of the weapon. It doesn't turn a glaive into a one handed slashing weapon, rapier or sword cane. It doesn't work as a black blade. All my opinion and I'm guessing the designer's too.
Is Black Blade a class ability.
If the answer is yes, Bladed Brush allows glaives to qualify.FAQ and 20+ posts disagree.
FWI The feat doesn't change the physical properties of the weapon. It doesn't turn a glaive into a one handed slashing weapon, rapier or sword cane. It doesn't work as a black blade. All my opinion and I'm guessing the designer's too.
Indeed, RAW is pretty clearly against it and there's been nothing to suggest its RAI to allow it or that any FAQ or errata allows it, but some people want it so much they reword and re-purpose the feat / class ability in their heads to fit their needs.
Is it OP? No, allow it in home games if you really must, but know that it'd be a house rule / homebrew unless paizo pop up and change either the feat or the class ability.
Still, glad I asked the question. It's always a good way to find out if there's been any official errata or new ruling allowing something.
And there is the whole when wielding you treat the glaive as a one handed weapon for x class ability but do you use it one hand or two?
Since spell combat requires a free hand that opens up a whole other debate.
As far as I know, spell combat and bladed brush work fine together, but as you say, that's a "whole other debate", probably better suited to a whole other thread.
And there is the whole when wielding you treat the glaive as a one handed weapon for x class ability but do you use it one hand or two?
Since spell combat requires a free hand that opens up a whole other debate.
Bladed brush also allows for spell combat with a glaive, but that is an argument for a different thread.
The problem, from an RAI perspective, is, anything you write for a swashbuckler is going to be usable by a magus unless you include something in the RAW that limits it specifically to the swashbuckler.
The combat restrictions on the magus and swashbuckler are just too similar to write ability that works for one while excluding the other without explicit language.
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And there is the whole when wielding you treat the glaive as a one handed weapon for x class ability but do you use it one hand or two?
Since spell combat requires a free hand that opens up a whole other debate.Bladed brush also allows for spell combat with a glaive, but that is an argument for a different thread.
The problem, from an RAI perspective, is, anything you write for a swashbuckler is going to be usable by a magus unless you include something in the RAW that limits it specifically to the swashbuckler.
The combat restrictions on the magus and swashbuckler are just too similar to write ability that works for one while excluding the other without explicit language.
But they are not similar a magus needs a free hand to use spell combat.
A swshbuckler just can't attack with a weapon in the off-hand or use a shield other then buckler when she use precise strike.So it's rather easy to write something to only work for the swashbuckler and not the magus. As in this case where it doesn't say we only wield the glaive in one hand but treat it that way for class abilities what reguires it.