Bladed Brush & Bladebound


Rules Questions

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James Risner wrote:
I'm still firmly not sold on using a glaive as a black blade nor using a glaive with spell combat.

Well we've firmly come to the conclusion that a black blade cannot be a glaive, so that's good. As for the latter, that's a topic for another thread :P


Diego Rossi wrote:
Haywire build generator wrote:

Okay, I agree that it doesn't technically work for magi, since

AoN, bladebound wrote:
At 3rd level, the bladebound magus’ gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus.

implying you can't have the exact weapon already.

However, that doesn't mean you can't get black blade glaives.

  • Take the Blade Adept Arcanist archetype.
  • it references the Wizard's arcane bond, but restricts to 1h P or S weapon
  • Acquire Bladed Brush before Arcanist level 3
  • Acquire a +1 glaive
  • Break your default arcane bond
  • Hold glaive, counting it as 1h for class features (for 8 hours, but whatever)
  • Use "Designate existing magic item" clause of Arcane Bond, applying it to the glaive. (Ritual places no hand restrictions)
  • Take Arcanist level 3, making your current Arcane Bond a Black Blade

Just pointing out for honesty, I've already been here on another alias, but decided to use this for posting this kind of cheese
Not that cheese is a bad thing!

You can't enchant a Back blade, so "designating" an already enchanted weapon as a black blade seem a big no-no to me.

That's a general problem with the Blade Adept, as they easily could have a +1 sword going into level 3 as well. I would think that, since bonded objects' enhancements only work for the owner, they're considered temporary and are overwritten in the case of a Blade Adept.


Jesper Roland Sørensen wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
Jesper Roland Sørensen wrote:

And there is the whole when wielding you treat the glaive as a one handed weapon for x class ability but do you use it one hand or two?

Since spell combat requires a free hand that opens up a whole other debate.

Bladed brush also allows for spell combat with a glaive, but that is an argument for a different thread.

The problem, from an RAI perspective, is, anything you write for a swashbuckler is going to be usable by a magus unless you include something in the RAW that limits it specifically to the swashbuckler.

The combat restrictions on the magus and swashbuckler are just too similar to write ability that works for one while excluding the other without explicit language.

But they are not similar a magus needs a free hand to use spell combat.

A swshbuckler just can't attack with a weapon in the off-hand or use a shield other then buckler when she use precise strike.

So it's rather easy to write something to only work for the swashbuckler and not the magus. As in this case where it doesn't say we only wield the glaive in one hand but treat it that way for class abilities what reguires it.

You use the glaive as a one-handed slashing weapon for the purpose of resolving class abilities - spell combat is a class ability.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I would consider allowing spell combat with Bladed Brush, but only for spells with no somatic components (whether innately or via Still Spell). Basically, you're still subject to the spells' requirement of having a hand free to perform those components - I haven't pored over the text of spell combat in a long time, but I don't recall any text specifically exempting the magus from having to perform somatic components.


Snowlilly wrote:
You use the glaive as a one-handed slashing weapon for the purpose of resolving class abilities - spell combat is a class ability.

Although I've disagreed with Snowlily throughout most of this thread, in this case i'm less inclined to do so, because it's potentially less cut and dry, so let's actually look into it properly.

For: Yes it treats it as a 1h slashing, so that fits with "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand"

Against: Spell combat explicitly states "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free" and although bladed brush states "you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand", it doesn't seem to actually say you are treated as having a free hand, merely that its as if you werent attacking with the off-hand (to match the wording of swashbucklers & duelists). Now yes, you could try to argue that a combination of not attacking with the off-hand and "treating" the glaive as a 1h weapon for the class ability extends to it only taking up one hand, implying the off-hand can be used to do other things, but it's far from clear.

So in my mind:
Strict RAW: Probably a no.
RAW + a step of logic / inference: Maybe there's a chance.
RAI: Probably wasn't even considered, given the wording of the feat and the examples are for swashbucklers.

So i might be changing my opinion from "should work fine" to "Probably not, without FAQ / dev confirmation", but given that this may actually have a little interpretive wiggle room, i'm not going to say without doubt it's one way or the other.

But I still think this should be a topic for a separate thread - given that the actual topic for this thread has reached a conclusion...

Liberty's Edge

I'm just gonna leave it at this.

My interpretation of the feat says no to spell combat. This is how I see it and I'm sure we can argue for many years on this feat.
"When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon."

It does't say anyway he uses the glaive in one hand, therefore he still has both hands on the weapon. You treat it as if it's one handed for class abilities requiring a one handed weapon and spell combat doesn't atcually call for using a one handed weapon only that you two weapon fight with a spell in you off hand.
As an example the lance can be wield in one hand on a mount or Thunder and fang feat allows you to use an Earth Breaker as if it were an one handed weapon..

Treating as through you are not making an attack with you off hand is another thing then having the hand free to cast a spell and deliver it.


Heh, all is not lost though, if you want to be 100% RAW you could pick up bladed brush, TWF, spear dancing style, weapon finesse, spear dancing spiral and quarterstaff master, then you'll definitely have a free hand :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
SillyString wrote:
Snowlilly wrote:
You use the glaive as a one-handed slashing weapon for the purpose of resolving class abilities - spell combat is a class ability.

Although I've disagreed with Snowlily throughout most of this thread, in this case i'm less inclined to do so, because it's potentially less cut and dry, so let's actually look into it properly.

For: Yes it treats it as a 1h slashing, so that fits with "wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand"

Against: Spell combat explicitly states "To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free" and although bladed brush states "you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand", it doesn't seem to actually say you are treated as having a free hand, merely that its as if you werent attacking with the off-hand (to match the wording of swashbucklers & duelists). Now yes, you could try to argue that a combination of not attacking with the off-hand and "treating" the glaive as a 1h weapon for the class ability extends to it only taking up one hand, implying the off-hand can be used to do other things, but it's far from clear.

So in my mind:
Strict RAW: Probably a no.
RAW + a step of logic / inference: Maybe there's a chance.
RAI: Probably wasn't even considered, given the wording of the feat and the examples are for swashbucklers.

So i might be changing my opinion from "should work fine" to "Probably not, without FAQ / dev confirmation", but given that this may actually have a little interpretive wiggle room, i'm not going to say without doubt it's one way or the other.

But I still think this should be a topic for a separate thread - given that the actual topic for this thread has reached a conclusion...

The feat say:

Bladed brush wrote:
When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).

If the intent was to wield the glaive with one hand, why it don't say:

Fake version of Bladed brush wrote:
You wield the glaive in one hand and deal slashing or piercing damage

A lot less worlds, way clearer.

To me that mean that "treat it as as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon " is mean to be different from "you wield it with one hand".
And spell combat don't require you "not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon", it require you to "have one hand free".
That include not wielding any potion, shield, wand, whatever in that hand, not simply not attacking with it.


Mmm, apologies if my previous post seemed a tad contradictory, over the course of typing the post I was studying the class ability's wording to reach a more accurate conclusion.
To put it as succinctly as possible, spell combat has two requirements:
1) 1h weapon.
2) A free hand.

By strict RAW bladed brush alone meets only req 1.

To achieve req 2, you'd need something like the spear dancing spiral & quarterstaff master, as only that feat specifically says you keep a free hand.

Liberty's Edge

SillyString wrote:
Heh, all is not lost though, if you want to be 100% RAW you could pick up bladed brush, TWF, spear dancing style, weapon finesse, spear dancing spiral and quarterstaff master, then you'll definitely have a free hand :)

Quite feat intensive, would almost cost all the feats available for most campaigns unless you dip fighter


Jesper Roland Sørensen wrote:
SillyString wrote:
Heh, all is not lost though, if you want to be 100% RAW you could pick up bladed brush, TWF, spear dancing style, weapon finesse, spear dancing spiral and quarterstaff master, then you'll definitely have a free hand :)
Quite feat intensive, would almost cost all the feats available for most campaigns unless you dip fighter

Might be worth it to show off the fact that Bladebound is compatible with Staff magus.


My 2 coppers for what it's worth is that a glaive cannot be used as a black blade because it isn't the right type of weapon and I don't think bladed brush changes that (at least I don't think it's intention is to change something like that).

I do think though that bladed brush would allow a magus to use a glaive with spell combat. However, Bladed Brush is written in a confusing manner and wouldn't be surprised if it was rewritten in a way that made it not work. In much the same way that slashing grace was rewritten not to work with Spell Combat.


Won't somebody think of the Magi!!!


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I mean if people would just accept strength magi instead of trying to make fetch happen...I mean dex magi happen


Eh, i pointed out that bladed brush doesnt say it gives you a free hand, and spell combat still requires a free hand. So by RAW a normal magus cant use a glaive without somehow gaining a free hand back through the use of spear dancing spiral & quarterstaff magus or similar. Which says to me that bladed brush alone isnt going to allow (appropriate sized) glaives for spell combat.

Whether or not that's intentional, unless they decide to change the wording (or FAQ/errata) it wont work. So it's more like:
"Bladed Brush is written in a confusing manner to match the swashbuckler wording, for which the feat is intended and but I wouldn't be surprised if it was rewritten in a way that made it not work." (I mean, there's clearly some interest in it becoming an option from the community.)

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