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So, out group has a player that "doesn't have time to read the rules". He knows how to play decently, but things recently hit a breaking point.
Two of our players left to be out of town for a month, so we were gettin ready to do a new ap for a little. Being as he is no longer new "new", I gave him a point buy calculator, five feats to choose, three races, and a couple traits to look at.
He had already chosen his class, trying to switch hit with a throwing spear. (Spearman, marksman archetype, psionics/dream scarred press). Saturday comes around, character isn't ready, nothing on paper.
I'm trying to be hands off since I'm the dm this time. Another player(b) is also staying hands off, telling the other player (a) that he'll answer questions but won't put anything on paper, since the last character he helped create is more his(b) than the real Player (a).
Since this is a two player session, him not joining means no sessions for this month. Do I roll up my sleeves, say screw it, and make his character, or just let him leave the group.
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Let him leave.
You can't force anyone to be interested in playing a game. If he's not interested, then no matter how much you do for him, he's still going to be indifferent.
You already know how he will react if you make his character. [the last character he helped create is more his(b) than the real Player (a)]
You have all done your best to include this person. He doesn't want to play this game. Let him go.
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We have two active campaigns. One he is a barbarian, other he is a psion.
Also before anyone says anything, he has plenty of time to do this.
The barbarian he does his stuff, but can never give his numbers, just saying his d20 roll despite being a lvl7 barbarian with +12ish to hit. Another player always ha's to give him his numbers.
The psion is a mess. He normally doesn't choose his spells, and if he does, he chooses a spell that can't be used. I can't say much about the psion as I dm that game, but another player is basically telling him what to do and he rolls dice.
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I'd give him a GM made character and let him only choose between more simple options, nothing too heavy relying on spellcasting, i.e.
That should make the job.
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We have two active campaigns. One he is a barbarian, other he is a psion.
Also before anyone says anything, he has plenty of time to do this.
The barbarian he does his stuff, but can never give his numbers, just saying his d20 roll despite being a lvl7 barbarian with +12ish to hit. Another player always ha's to give him his numbers.
The psion is a mess. He normally doesn't choose his spells, and if he does, he chooses a spell that can't be used. I can't say much about the psion as I dm that game, but another player is basically telling him what to do and he rolls dice.
That's not a player, that's a bystander who likes to roll dice and contributes nothing to the game.
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sounds like he's not interested in playing Pathfinder, but is just interested in playing with you guys. Basically he's giving as much effort as playing Chutes and Ladders, or Candyland or watching shows. Meaning, he's not interested enough to put any effort, but he's fine to be there and roll a dice when it's his turn if needed, like in the mentioned games, because he's there just to be with the group, not for the game.
Personally, unless they actually liked the combat aspect. I'd just have them be a non-character character in the group. He can role-play with the party, but he doesn't fight or make checks.
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Yeah, he isn't a role player either. He hasn't yet talked to a single npc in either game other than screaming at some of them in battle.
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Yeah, give him basically a ghost character that only the players can see. See if he notices, or cares. He'll probably have just as much fun because presumably the fun is in just sitting with you guys and nothing else.
Good god, its like the opposite of me, nowadays I generally go to great lengths making character sheets, laying out and understanding all of my characters fully before I the campaign even starts. To that end I always make sure to keep my characters as simple to play as possible so I'm able to keep everything in mind when playing.
Maybe he actually is in a similar boat though? I mean, when first introduced to a system, if you're introduced to 3rd party and huge amounts of resources an options all at once it can be very easy to feel overwhelmed and as if the process of character creation and customisation is beyond you. That can be a mindset that is hard to escape: Generally speaking I still steer clear of making many spellcasters or delving into the more complicated classes / archetypes that have to keep track of too many things, because I just "switch off" when trying to play something I don't understand or have trouble keeping on top of, he could be experiencing just this, or a more extreme version of it.
Or he could be a lazy freeloading bystander, i'm certainly not ruling that out either.
Best advice I can give is if he's been doing this for a long time, try to talk to him about it? Ask him what he likes about playing, get him to put his cards on the table and work with him to get the most out of him and allow him to get the most out of the sessions.
I don't know how much simpler 5 feats, 3 races, and a 15 pb could be.
Traits and starting equipment were going to be tacken care of.
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I don't know how much simpler 5 feats
He has to choose 5 feats out of the thousands available, or he choses one feat out of the 5 you've presented to him? (or just from phb, etc etc)
Has he actually been walked through how to point buy? Has he ever done it before? (I know it's hand-holdy, but honestly he doesnt sound like the brightest button in the box... Especially with what you said about the barbarian stuff.)
Dont get me wrong, not defending him, my gut tells me he's just lazy and/or uninterested, but I dont like to assume.
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First off... is the extra effort of having this person around worth it?
I have a friend who I sometimes have to drag through the boring parts of games. He doesn't always pay attention to the game, only gets interested in the minutiae that is centered on his character, etc....
But he's also been a friend of the group for 25 years, and like 3 other players are groomsmen at his wedding in a couple weeks. We like him as a person and consider him a valuable friend, so we tolerate him showing up to gaming and then taking a nap in the other room. He also brings us beer sometimes.
Is it worth it to you and your gaming group to include this person at the table?
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Sounds like either crunchy games like PF/D&D don't agree with this guy, or he's just there for the social aspect of gaming, as Chess Pwn says. Have you had a straight-up conversation with him about what if anything he likes about the campaign and PF?
Depending on his answer, how much you want to run this campaign, and how many potential players you have access to -- consider getting more engaged players, or playing a less involved game until the band gets back together. If you play PF and keep him despite his seemingly utter lack of interest, hand him the simplest pregen you can make and go.
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Experiment:
1. Purchase a Weeble.
2. Get all your usual group together except for the difficult player.
3. Put the Weeble in his spot at the table.
4. Play. Try to include the Weeble as much as possible in the game.
If the experience is not appreciably different or is even improved by the Weeble substitution, then the player can be safely removed from the group.
NOTE: This process is not limited to tabletop RPGs. With appropriate modifications, it can be used to assess the value of virtually any social interaction.
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I'm trying to be hands off since I'm the dm this time. Another player(b) is also staying hands off, telling the other player (a) that he'll answer questions but won't put anything on paper, since the last character he helped create is more his(b) than the real Player (a).
Sounds like this is the kind of player you need to be more "hands on" with than hands off. He may not be 'new' but that doesn't mean he really knows much of what to do with character generation.
It also sounds like he's not al that engaged in the nitty gritty of the RPG process either. If he's just telling what the die comes up with, tell him to add his numbers. Every time. Hold him to it or you'll just use the number he reports. Highlight his numbers on the character sheet if you have to (I do that for my wife but then the particular sheets we use can be a little complex to pick out the right info quickly).
Sounds like they don't really want to play Pathfinder. If you want to game with them regardless consider a simpler game. DnD 5e is pretty similar and a step down in complexity.
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So your player...
Likes:
-Playing the game
-Playing with your group
-Combat
Dislikes:
-Building a character
-Preparation
-Roleplaying
-Addition
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It's a role-playing game, first and foremost. Combat is a big part of it, but if declaring numbers is all he can be bothered to do (and not even doing that well), this is not the game he wants to play. We should be less tolerant of that, because I find it infects and drags down everyone else until it all feels like what World of Warcraft has become (I remember the good times there, mind you, but they're long-gone); it's very hard to play the game right when not everyone is serious about it (and combat should be just as much part of a role-playing experience as the rest of the game; people lose sight of that for some reason).
Just a thought: Try gently (certainly not meanly, but not without some zing, either) satirizing his character, explaining and reacting to his lethargy in-game the way characters actually would. See if it's at all possible to goad him into stepping up to the plate. If nothing else, it could help blunt the harm done to everyone else's imagination if you start saying he'd been cruelly cursed by the Runelord of Sloth or something. Have fun with it.
Better than Sacred Geometry. Which seems to be some sort of unholy arcane fusion of cryptography and mental acrobatics, with a dash of illogical algebra.
I'd love to be able to play with Sacred Geometry sometime. It actually wouldn't be too much of a problem in a play-by-post game.
I don't know how much simpler 5 featsHe has to choose 5 feats out of the thousands available, or he choses one feat out of the 5 you've presented to him? (or just from phb, etc etc)
Has he actually been walked through how to point buy? Has he ever done it before? (I know it's hand-holdy, but honestly he doesnt sound like the brightest button in the box... Especially with what you said about the barbarian stuff.)
Dont get me wrong, not defending him, my gut tells me he's just lazy and/or uninterested, but I dont like to assume.
He needed 1 feat and was given 5 to choose from. This is a lvl1 character. We explained pb as simply as possible, since it is a ton of math, and gave him a pb calculator and told him to get a 15 and what his important stats were. He luckily remembers the major use of ever stat.
The marksman gets way too many things and the whole psionic focus using/keeping, I'll probably just see if he wants to do Aegis or Fighter.
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Step 1: Offer him the ability to make a character
Step 2: When he doesn't bring a character, hand him a sheet
Step 3: Every time this occurs hand him a steadily worse character
Step 4: After 10 or so games when he ends up as a Kobold Wizard with 7 Int, he should get the message
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This is a social game, first and foremost. As a GM you should also be creating an environment that is fun for players.
If this is mostly a table of friends just getting together and hanging out playing Pathfinder, then there really isn't an issue. If all of the players are having fun and this is just annoying you because you want him to take it more seriously, then you should consider looking past his attitude.
It sounds like he likes combat, and even actively engages. That is a good start. Hopefully, after some time he will participate otherwise. In this situation, kicking the person out is basically saying everyone should play how you want them to.
Now, if the rest of the group is bothered by this player, then you should all talk. What does the player want out of his gaming experience and leisure time he is spending while gaming? What does the group want from each other?
Some people are just not into the character building. That should be ok too. Maybe they will come around and start liking that part of it too.
Some good approaches regarding the character sheet:
- Maintain the character yourself and let him play. Choose pretty much only passive feats and abilities when able.
- Make a level 1 character and give it to the player. The player needs to keep up from there on. If he doesn't, he still gets to play his old character sheet until he does - don't allow them to work their sheet during the session.
- Use the iconic characters and just bump them to the new sheet without leveling in between.
You guys are too harsh with this Player I think.
As a newbie, Pathfinder is overwhelmingly difficult. I played for a year until I started digging through the stuff, and even after 5 years of playing I'm not through yet.
He does not contribute much, but does he really bother you? I for my part like to help new players select feats and help with the numbers. If I were in your position, I'd just ask him what he wants, build his character and maybe make a spread sheet for combat, where he has all the relevant numbers.
I think adding attack Bonus to your d20 roll could be learnt rather fast. If not, he might be not the brightest candle on the table.
Roleplaying is difficult, many people don't feel very comfortable doing it, so let him stay out of it. Just let him Play a simple character that he can manage in combat and it will be fine.
Kicking him out of the Group or not is more a question of personality, not one of gameplay. Do you get along well? Then Keep him. Is the social interaction awkward or difficult? Let him go.
My son and his friends, all under 15 at the time we began, all managed to figure out how to add their to hit # to their dice rolls on the first day. This isn't rocket science. The guy isn't incapable, he simply has no respect for the GM or the other players and will continue to get away with it as long as they let him.
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I'd roll up a character for him. Make it a simple, easy to remember, not that many options character. Then, when he says "I rolled a twelve" I'd tell him "twelve is a miss, did you add your bonus?" a few times until he (hopefully) got the point that he has to report the total, not the roll.
If it bugs the more invested player, I think there's an issue, but if this guy is turning up but doesn't want to do anything outside of game time I don't think that's a problem in itself. It's a good opportunity to give the other player a lot of screen time and to focus the story on the more invested player's PC without annoying the other players. That's a silver lining, in my view.
My son and his friends, all under 15 at the time we began, all managed to figure out how to add their to hit # to their dice rolls on the first day. This isn't rocket science. The guy isn't incapable, he simply has no respect for the GM or the other players and will continue to get away with it as long as they let him.I was not referring to this incident when saying that character building is difficult. Besides, it's not a matter of Intelligence, I think, implying that this guy has no mental issues (no sarcasm here).
My Impression is he shys away from every Pathfinder rules, relying on someone else (maybe the GM, maybe the other player) to manage his character. I refuse to call this a matter of lacking respect. I know this for example from my girlfriend, who is a very intelligent woman who still relies on me when it Comes to managing her character, because it's something I know more about and which is a compensation for things she manages for me (planning vacations and stuff).
We don't know enough to judge this case. Maybe you other guys are way too experienced, so the player thinks it's worthless to invest in his character, when you could do it in a fraction of the time.
Give him some time maybe, and he will start to find his own interest in his character. When he doesn't want to play this game, he will say it sooner or later.
It doesn't matter whether you were. This is what defines his behavior and why he doesn't deserve a break. If the guy has been told and refuses to get on board, he's disrespecting everyone at the table. If he cared, he would make an effort. People like this will never play by the rules because they think everyone else should naturally accommodate their selfish desires.
In short, this is a player that is telling everyone at the table "The rules don't apply to me. Deal." This is incredibly childish and petulent. Any attempt to placate him or, in some of the solutions above, to punish him, are only stooping to his level, playing on his terms. If you let it continue, like a cancer, it will consume your game, and, ultimately, end it. There is only one solution: point blank tell him to get with the game or quit.
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That's....a bit extreme. I wouldn't call someone being less invested in a game as the rest of the group...well any of the things that you just said. It simply means that he's less invested. Maybe pen and paper just isn't his thing, or maybe he's trying but just has other priorities.
Also, it's a game. Some people just aren't ready for a game that, at times, feels like work. That doesn't make him an a~~$+#@ or a bad person, it just means this isn't his thing.
Talk to him. If he expresses genuine interest, work with him a bit more hands-on and see if you can get him more engaged. Give it an honest effort to get him into it. If it doesn't work, then you can say you gave it your best shot, and then see what to do from there. If you both decide that this isn't the game for him, then you can just let him hang out, and maybe roll the occasional d20 for an npc.
Passive aggressive punishments and ultimatums are just going to make him lose interest, and most likely drive him away. That's just as likely to sour him on trying any sort of tabletop game in the future, not to mention cause unnecessary conflict.
If you genuinely dislike having him in the game (which it doesn't sound like you do) then you can just tell him "This probably isn't the game for you."
What was described by the OP wasn't someone "less invested" in the game, rather, it is someone that has zero interest in learning the rules, or at least, applying the rules (that he likely knows). The basics of this game are easy to learn. If his excuse is it's too complicated, he's lying. Every explanation for this guy's behavior leads to a simple lack of concern for other people. Selfish is an understatement.
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Yeah, he isn't a role player either. He hasn't yet talked to a single npc in either game other than screaming at some of them in battle.
Wait. How is this even a question? He won't invest in the mechanics of the game, and he won't engage in the role play.
What he needs is a new social activity that isn't interrupted by people playing Pathfinder. If he's a friend and you enjoy his company, find something else to do with him.
Start with the mini, and talk about the mini. Never, "Jack, what did you roll??", but always, "what did Elfshot get 'to hit'?", "what feats does Elfshot have?", "How strong is Elfshot's Will in this moment, can he exceed the power of the Necromancer's spell?"
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I have a player who is like that, he's also a friend and I don't want him out, so as long as he doesn't distract other players or hinder the game I don't care.
He is happy with his level of commitment to the game, with not coming too often and with playing a secondary role. I balance everyting knowing how he is and that's it. I let him make his own characters but I try to get him into playing simple things and I suggest his best options.
In the end I found that's the better option, letting him involve as much as he wants. I don't see a reason for not having him around as he is not disrupting the game at all. Trying to get more commitment from him made me waste too much efforts to get ressults that weren't good for me, for him or for the table.
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We have a player like that. If he were applying to a new game, I'd say no, but he's been with the group longer than I have (by a decade), and we meet at his house.
I don't mind helping him with characters, and I try to build characters that don't rely on a lot of options. i.e. he's currently playing a dwarf fighter and I simply gave him the numbers with power attack always on. Most of his feats are armor feats or passive boosts.
Oh, and no snoring during the game.
That's....a bit extreme. I wouldn't call someone being less invested in a game as the rest of the group...well any of the things that you just said. It simply means that he's less invested. -snippet-
Since when is not doing anything other than showing up and rolling the dice, without even knowing why or how your attacks work count as "less invested."
While the other dude was pretty extreme negatively, you're pretty extreme in the other way, way too willing to bend backwards and over for someone who clearly isn't "invested" in contributing to the game.
"We'll let Steve play with us. We have to make monsters and story work to fit this many characters, but Steve will not be pulling his weight. Bob you make sure Steve has a character, everyone else babysit him so he knows how to add his bonuses to simple dice rolls."
- Perfect roleplay session.
- Said no one ever.
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This is ultimately very simple:
- Does he contribute to a positive social atmosphere?
If so, there isn't much of a problem.
- Does he negatively affect the social atmosphere due to his inability to play the game?
If so, talk to him and discuss the problem and potential ways to fix it. If that doesn't work, then you should let him go.
We had a player that resembles this description.
~ We helped cover him with help during the games.
~ Outside of the games we helped with rules questions and tips.
~ Bought extra books so he could have his own when he needed to look things up.
~ Paid for gas, food and incidentals when we took road trips to game.
~ He never put anything back into the game. He would sleep through the game at times till there was combat and then we'd STILL have to wake him up.
~ After 20 Years, we cut him loose. Cut your losses now, it will save you time, money and sanity. If he can't be bothered to add numbers to a die roll, why should you be bothered to suffer the Fool?
If he's not adding to the game, he detracting from it. In my experience.
Hope things work out for you no matter what route you take.
Good Luck
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That's....a bit extreme. I wouldn't call someone being less invested in a game as the rest of the group...well any of the things that you just said. It simply means that he's less invested. -snippet-Since when is not doing anything other than showing up and rolling the dice, without even knowing why or how your attacks work count as "less invested."
While the other dude was pretty extreme negatively, you're pretty extreme in the other way, way too willing to bend backwards and over for someone who clearly isn't "invested" in contributing to the game.
"We'll let Steve play with us. We have to make monsters and story work to fit this many characters, but Steve will not be pulling his weight. Bob you make sure Steve has a character, everyone else babysit him so he knows how to add his bonuses to simple dice rolls."
- Perfect roleplay session.
- Said no one ever.
Less invested means less invested. Which generally means putting in less effort than the people around you. So yeah, I'd say that counts.
I don't consider it "bending over backwards" to work with a player to help them improve as long as they are showing genuine interest. And because everyone expresses themselves differently, you cannot gauge another person's interest accurately unless you talk to them. Which is why "communicate like adults" is generally my first suggestion.
You're also ignoring the part where I say that if he's disinterested and unwilling to change, you ask not to play. Ask. With words. Not chasing him away by giving him a crap character or making him feel stupid over - and I must stress this - a game.
I have groups where friends just sit in and observe and chat with the party. I also have a group where another player's brother will ocassionally show up to roll some dice for an npc and not do anything else. There is plenty of middle ground between "coddle bad behavior" and "make him feel unwelcome forever."
I have groups where friends just sit in and observe and chat with the party.
This drives me nuts as a player. When someone is chatting with me, it's keeping me from paying attention to what's going on or it's slowing the game down.
I echo what Wallsingham says: if they aren't contributing, odds are pretty good that they are detracting.
As always, YMMV.