I was just looking around and found this 2 cases with I have doubt about.
1- Unarmed strike and UC Rouge:
I quote:
"[...] starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers). Once this choice is made, it cannot be changed. Whenever she makes a successful melee attack with the selected weapon, she adds her Dexterity modifier instead of her Strength modifier to the damage roll. [...]"
Can I add my Dexterity on unarmed strike? Can I considerate Unarmed strike as a weapon in this case? Weapon finesse works with Unarmed strikes, so I think this ability of the rouge can work with Unarmed strikes.
So for me it's ok, but I prefer to ask for be sure.
2- Two-handed weapon (Glaive) and Dexterity bonus:
With the feat Bladed Brush Combat (you can find it in the book "Paths Of The Righteous", page 15), I can use weapon finesse with a Glaive.
But I quote:
"[...] When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike). [...]"
So I suppose I can take the Slashing Grace feat, and add my Dexterity bonus, or use the UC Rouge ability as before for add my Dexterity bonus to damage rolls.
In this case, how much should I add? It's a two-handed weapon, so usually you add your strength bonus plus half of it (strength 16 equal +4). How about Dexterity bonus? In case of Dexterity 16, I add +3 or +4?
Thank you very much in advance for all your comments and suggestion.
If you are curious and want to know, I will run a new campaign soon, and two of my players ask me those questions. One want to play a Sacred Fist (Warpriest archetype) and he is thinking also to take 3 levels as UC Rouge for the ability I wrote before, and the other one would like to be a Devoted Muse in future, a prestige class you can fine always in Paths Of The Righteous.
1. yes unarmed strike is finessable so it works fine.
2. Gonna be more of an issue it's gonna be a GM call since the glaive only counts when you have that feat not all the time.
1) yes
2) No. A glaive is not a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, even if you can wield one as a finesse weapon.
Thank you very much for all your answers!
And a special thanks to Zwordsman for be very accurate.
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2) I am in the no camp, but really there is no clear RAW answer. We already had that debate here, and we where unable to reach a consensus.
1)yes
2)nobut now i have a real interesting question if a monk has 3 unchained rogue levels and uses dragon style can they get 1.5 times dex to damage with unarmed strikes?
No, rogues translate str for dex, but can't increase it with feats. FAQ However, any other effects that would increase the multiplier to your Strength bonus on damage rolls (such as the two-handed fighter archetype's overhand chop) do not affect your Dexterity bonus on damage rolls.
Dragon style is increasing the multiplier to your str bonus so it doesn't translate to dex.
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The problem is that we don't know whether "type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse" is supposed to mean "type of weapon that you can use with WF" of "type of weapon that everyone can use with WF".
I presume the first version is RAI, but I'm afraid that due to the general wording of Finesse Training in contrast to the personal wording of Bladed Brush, the second version is RAW.
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2- Two-handed weapon (Glaive) and Dexterity bonus:
With the feat Bladed Brush Combat (you can find it in the book "Paths Of The Righteous", page 15), I can use weapon finesse with a Glaive.
But I quote:"[...] When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike). [...]"
So I suppose I can take the Slashing Grace feat, and add my Dexterity bonus, or use the UC Rouge ability as before for add my Dexterity bonus to damage rolls.
In this case, how much should I add? It's a two-handed weapon, so usually you add your strength bonus plus half of it (strength 16 equal +4). How about Dexterity bonus? In case of Dexterity 16, I add +3 or +4?
As has been mentioned, unarmed strikes are a clear yes, your unarmed strikes are definitely weapons (Natural weapons) and they are finesse-able.
For Bladed Brush, people need to see the entire feat, you did not quote the relevant portions.
You know how to balance a polearm perfectly, striking with artful, yet deadly precision.
Prerequisite(s): Weapon Focus (glaive), must be a worshiper of Shelyn.
Benefit(s): You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon. When wielding a glaive, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing or slashing melee weapon and as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s or swashbuckler’s precise strike).
As a move action, you can shorten your grip on the glaive, treating it as though it lacked the reach weapon property. You can adjust your grip to grant the weapon the reach property as a move action.
NOW, with all the details of Bladed Brush. Once you have the feat, then a glaive is a weapon that uses Weapon finesse. That is the distinction.
Combine that with the restriction to selecting a weapon that uses weapon finesse at level 3. It means do you need to already have the bladed brush feat at level 3, If you don't have the feat yet, then you would have to wait until you select the next weapon at level 11 before you can use dex to dmg with it.
The glaive is not a weapon that can work with weapon finesse.
You possess an ability to stretch weapon finesse to glaives sized for you that you use. Not all glaives, not for everyone.
Glaive is not a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, but you have the ability to weapon finesse a glaive.
Y'see I'm of the view that there are 2 types of situations with these 'replace' abilities.
You get the ones that care about what the item is - something like the agile enchantment which requires the weapon be finessable. It doesn't care about how it's used. So replacement abilities don't work.
Something like this cares about how you use the weapon, like rogues finesse, so this should work fine.
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The glaive is not a weapon that can work with weapon finesse.
You possess an ability to stretch weapon finesse to glaives sized for you that you use. Not all glaives, not for everyone.
Glaive is not a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, but you have the ability to weapon finesse a glaive.
A short sword is a Light weapon, Light weapons only deal +1xStr Mod when wielded 2 handed, not +1.5xStr Mod.
A tiny creature picks up a normal medium short sword. A medium weapon wielded by a tiny creature is treated as though it were 2 sizes larger. So the tiny creature has to 2 hand the short sword.
So... the tiny creature only does Deals +1xStr Mod because it's two handed weapon is still on the light weapons list?
The short sword at that point would be considered a two-handed weapon. Only if it is considered a light weapon does it not get 1.5xStr.
An appropriately sized short sword for a tiny creature is a light weapon. A short sword for a medium creature is the same as an appropriately sized great sword for a tiny creature.
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when wielded in 2 hands a short sword would deal 1.5x str to damage they just cant be used in 2 hands by a creature the same size as the weapon so would have to be a large or larger short sword to be wielded by a medium creatureThe glaive is not a weapon that can work with weapon finesse.
You possess an ability to stretch weapon finesse to glaives sized for you that you use. Not all glaives, not for everyone.
Glaive is not a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, but you have the ability to weapon finesse a glaive.A short sword is a Light weapon, Light weapons only deal +1xStr Mod when wielded 2 handed, not +1.5xStr Mod.
A tiny creature picks up a normal medium short sword. A medium weapon wielded by a tiny creature is treated as though it were 2 sizes larger. So the tiny creature has to 2 hand the short sword.
So... the tiny creature only does Deals +1xStr Mod because it's two handed weapon is still on the light weapons list?
Actually the rule says you gain no benefit from wielding a light weapon in 2 hands, it only provides bonus dmg from strength as if it was wielded in your primary hand. So you can 2hand it, you just can't put any extra force into it when doing so.
The short sword at that point would be considered a two-handed weapon. Only if it is considered a light weapon does it not get 1.5xStr.
An appropriately sized short sword for a tiny creature is a light weapon. A short sword for a medium creature is the same as an appropriately sized great sword for a tiny creature.
precisely the concept I was trying to get at.
Finesse Training says "select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers)." under the right circumstances (the character has the Bladed Brush Feat) glaives are a type of weapon that can be used with weapon finesse.
To say that it normally isn't a weapon with which you can use weapon finesse so it can't be used with finesse training, is the same as saying a tiny creature with a normal sized short sword doesn't get extra bonus dmg from str because a short sword is normally a light weapon.
I think weapon finesse also assumes correctly sized weapons. You do take a -2 to all attacks if you do weapon finesse a small glaive though.
My view. If you can't place agile on it then it doesn't count as a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Agile doesn't care if YOU can finesse it, just if the weapon is finesse-able. Since glaive is not a finesse-able weapon you can't agile it, and that means it's not valid for the rogue choosing it as a type of finesse-able weapon.
Do bows fall under "light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain"?
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2) No. A glaive is not a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, even if you can wield one as a finesse weapon.
[b]]ox·y·mo·ron
/ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/
noun
noun: oxymoron; plural noun: oxymorons
a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction
I would really like to know how you would use a weapon as a finesse weapons with using Weapon Finesse, or an equivalent ability that acts as Weapon Finesse.
Rogues get a x1.5 strength mod while two-handing a one-handed or two-handed weapon that can be finessed.
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My view. If you can't place agile on it then it doesn't count as a type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse. Agile doesn't care if YOU can finesse it, just if the weapon is finesse-able. Since glaive is not a finesse-able weapon you can't agile it, and that means it's not valid for the rogue choosing it as a type of finesse-able weapon.
Again, the ability does not say that the weapon itself has a finesse feature or anything like that... it says: "select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers)."
Granted, not everyone MAY use a Glaive with Weapon finesse, but everyone CAN use a glaive with weapon finesse, they need only have taken the bladed brush feat!
But ultimately Bladed Brush is not PFS legal, so it's only getting used in home games. Might as well just say Ask your GM because it really doesn't need a standard rule to be established.
I really don't get the confusion here.
Bladed brush states: You CAN use weapon finesse on this Glaive.
UC Rogue/Slashing Grace: Choose a weapon that CAN be used with weapon finesse.
A Glaive for YOU can be used with Weapon Finesse. YOUR Ability/Feat enables you to have Dex to Damage with weapons YOU can finesse with.
I really don't want to have to go searching for previous confirmed examples of this kind of interaction, but I will if I have to. I know they're on the board somewhere.
#1 yes
#2 yes
"You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a glaive sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon." + "In addition, starting at 3rd level, she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse (such as rapiers or daggers)." = unchained rogue using bladed brush can take finesse training with a glaive.
PS: On those saying you must take bladed brush before the 3rd level pick, one only has to retrain the feature to pick another option valid at that time of retraining. That way you can take a filler until the bladed brush feat is taken.
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I don't think that works.
You have two points
Is the weapon finessable, no.
Can you finesse the weapon, yes.
Unchained rogue ability says "she can select any one type of weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse."
If it said one type of weapon she can use with Weapon Finesse then I would agree. Instead it is referring to the weapon, not the user.
Part of the problem is that Paizo doesn't put a Finesse quality on weapons rather it says weapon can be used with Weapon Finesse. If they had done so the ability would have said "she can select any one type of finesse weapons" etc..
Now if you want to use this ability with a reach weapon, get an Elven Branch Spear. If you want to use it with a twohanded weapon get an Elven Curve Blade. In those cases, those are weapons that can be used with weapon finesse, regardless of user.
YOUR Ability/Feat enables you to have Dex to Damage with weapons YOU can finesse with.
This is not what the text says! Finesse Training says "can be used", not "you can use". The text is written in passive voice and does not actually include the agent of the action - that's where the ambiguity comes from.
The text itself does not include the agent, but we absolutely need to know the agent to determine the interaction. It doesn't really make sense to use the passive voice if it's not meant to be general (i.e. "weapon that anyone can use with weapon finesse"), hence the last sentence in my first post, but it's objectively impossible to unambiguously judge the interaction from the text alone.
That's not entirely right - the weapon can be used with weapon finesse by the character.
We just don't have enough information to tell if that's enough.
And don't forget, a lv5 fighter can finesse any weapon in a weapon group.
And heck, since it's possible for someone, then I don't need to have it myself. Someone can finesse a greatsword, so I can rogue training it.
And don't forget, a lv5 fighter can finesse any weapon in a weapon group.
No, he absolutely can't. He can gain the benefits of WF with every weapon in his weapon group, but he can't use the actual WF feat with them.
Re-reading the unRogue discription, I've found some actually pretty good argument for the "weapon you can use with WF" interpretation: The "can be used" wording is used again in the next class feature (Evasion) - in that case, it's very clear that the player is the agent of the action. If we apply that to the entire class discription, Finesse Training with Bladed Brush is actually possible!