I've read on and off that Shelia Heidmarch is quite unpopular. What exactly did she do? I don't know anything about PFS, so I'm curious about this.
Venture-Agent, Minnesota
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PFS has a very long and rich storyline that builds like any ongoing series with surprise moments and twists and turns. I'd love for you to experience that storyline for yourself someday, so I'm going to give you a mostly spoiler-free answer.
Sheila is one of our most prevalent Venture Captains. The opinion about her is based not so much on one incident as much as a pattern of behavior that arose in one PFS season and one of the Pathfinder Adventure Paths. I've seen the friendly Sheila who welcomed me to her home. I've also seen a much darker Sheila.
Let's just say that she is quite competent, but tends to be tight lipped when it comes to useful intelligence. Also, she can be ruthless in achieving her goals. That ruthlessness and complexity makes her a very interesting character to have in the ongoing storyline.
It also makes for a lot of incidents that Players remember and hold grudges about.
Hmm
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Race for the Runecarved key, where you have a lot of interaction with her. Her actions could charitably start at ruthless.
she's also the season 4 venture captain, where the scenarios got a lot deadlier, and has a habit of leaving out information that could get you killed. A bad combination.
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Race for the Runecarved key, where you have a lot of interaction with her. Her actions could charitably start at ruthless.
she's also the season 4 venture captain, where the scenarios got a lot deadlier, and has a habit of leaving out information that could get you killed. A bad combination.
"Hey 19th level PCs, I need you to go be street thugs and shake this guy down."
What I and my character had wanted to do in Race was not allowable because of the multi-table nature of the scenario - teach her the value of field work via Greater Possession.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Hilary got the gist of it. She's good at her job, but has a tendency to look down on Pathfinders, making them feel like idiots and underappreciated. She's not exactly aloof, but pretty much uncaring about the fate she puts her Pathfinders in. It's a fun affectation, but when that affectation turns people off about PFS, that's a bad thing. Combine that with the fact that some of her missions are pretty dangerous and she underplays the threat, that's a recipe for disaster.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Hilary got the gist of it. She's good at her job, but has a tendency to look down on Pathfinders, making them feel like idiots and underappreciated. She's not exactly aloof, but pretty much uncaring about the fate she puts her Pathfinders in. It's a fun affectation, but when that affectation turns people off about PFS, that's a bad thing. Combine that with the fact that some of her missions are pretty dangerous and she underplays the threat, that's a recipe for disaster.
I feel like it has more to do with the fact that she features prominently in the worst of the worst in PFS scenarios. Like there are worst NPCs in regards to aloofness and uncaring like Drendle Drang who willingly goes along with a plan that could end with you being vaporized in a volcano.
She sounds vaguely like a Shadowrun Johnson. I like her already...
Of course, I GMed Shadowrun - I didn't play it!
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I think it's more that we are told she is supposed to be competent and good at her job, but repeatedly shown all of the proverbial "blond moments" and how uncaring she really is.
In a lot of ways, she kind of combines the worst personality aspects of Eleminister and the better ones of GMT, but just winds up making players (not characters) angry and turning them off.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Eh, Dreng has his ups and downs, but at least there's attempts to make him sympathetic. Sheila just has her "I hope you'll fill in the paperwork in triplicate if you get back"-attitude.
Honestly, that scenario just stands out because it is actually making fun of behavior that you prescribed to Shelia. I still don't see where her attitude comes from but that partially has to do with the fact that partially because of time and just knowing the reputation of season 4 isn't as hard as I thought it would be.
Also, having been told the stats for Aram Zey its kind of hard to argue for anyone else being the worst. Especially, since they confirm that he never learned his dam lesson either from the way they worded that boon.
EDIT:
Also, its not like I hate hate these characters because I legitimately like Aram Zey just for his James Bond villain level arrogance.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Eh, Dreng has his ups and downs, but at least there's attempts to make him sympathetic. Sheila just has her "I hope you'll fill in the paperwork in triplicate if you get back"-attitude.Honestly, that scenario just stands out because it is actually making fun of behavior that you prescribed to Shelia. I still don't see where her attitude comes from but that partially has to do with the fact that partially because of time and just knowing the reputation of season 4 isn't as hard as I thought it would be.
Also, having been told the stats for Aram Zey its kind of hard to argue for anyone else being the worst. Especially, since they confirm that he never learned his dam lesson either from the way they worded that boon.
EDIT:
Also, its not like I hate hate these characters because I legitimately like Aram Zey just for his James Bond villain level arrogance.
I wasn't referring to an adventure in specific regarding Drendle Dreng.
I think most venture-captains can be divided into three groups:
- Boors and loudmouths: Adril Hestram, Marcos Farabellus, Holgarin Smine (though maybe it's his Dwarvenness), Dennel Hamshanks (he's an early one, but I've met him a few times and he's always grumpy).
- People with big egoes: Calisro Benarry (but in a playful way), Aram Zey, Sheila Heidmarch, Thurl.
- Miscelanneous: Dreng (older seasons portray him as nearly an inch away from death, newer scenarios paint him more as an eccentric grandpa), Kreighton Shaine (kooky), Eliza Petulengro (she came across as very warm and motherly to me) and all the boring ones that have never really gotten a personality.
Surprise surprise, people tend to dislike people who disrespect them. There's more to find in the "Badmouthing our bosses" thread, but people seem to dislike unhelpful people who seem to underestimate the Pathfinders' abilities. Sheila is certainly portrayed as such in a significant amount of adventures, but there are also a few where she's genuinely helpful and interesting.
I think it's more that we are told she is supposed to be competent and good at her job, but repeatedly shown all of the proverbial "blond moments" and how uncaring she really is.
In a lot of ways, she kind of combines the worst personality aspects of Eleminister and the better ones of GMT, but just winds up making players (not characters) angry and turning them off.
What are the worst personality aspects of Eleminister, and who's GMT?
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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They say Sheila is competent, but in practice she's not competent to organize security of her own home (at least two scenarios) and is so tight-fisted with information that you wonder if she actually wants your mission to succeed.
And then there's the moral event horizon in Race for the Runecarved Key. With no explanation of why this one relic is more important that any of the hundreds of others we've been sent to fetch, we get ordered to perform all kinds of crimes to get it.
Venture-Captain, Netherlands
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What are the worst personality aspects of Eleminister, and who's GMT?I think it's more that we are told she is supposed to be competent and good at her job, but repeatedly shown all of the proverbial "blond moments" and how uncaring she really is.
In a lot of ways, she kind of combines the worst personality aspects of Eleminister and the better ones of GMT, but just winds up making players (not characters) angry and turning them off.
Grand Master Torch I would presume.
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While I do agree that some of the mission tactics Sheila Heidmarch recommends in Race for the Runecarved Key are questionable (particularly to lawful characters), I don't feel that she ever withheld information in her briefings. To be fair, I have not yet had a chance to play The Cultist's Kiss or The Waking Rune and it's possible that these scenarios are the source of some negative opinions (no spoilers, please). I think that a lot of how people perceive different Venture Captains depends on how GMs present them and that is based on how they have perceived them through their own play experiences and reading of the background material. I've not seen anything in the intro materials for any of the scenarios I've run to suggest that VC Heidmarch looks down on her Pathfinder agents, so I'm not sure where that is coming from, but I suspect that this may be a GM choice. I'm not aware of anyone in my local area that holds her in as much disdain as I've seen on the boards here.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Surprise surprise, people tend to dislike people who disrespect them. There's more to find in the "Badmouthing our bosses" thread, but people seem to dislike unhelpful people who seem to underestimate the Pathfinders' abilities. Sheila is certainly portrayed as such in a significant amount of adventures, but there are also a few where...
No. It is actually surprising when the worst personality types prescribed to her is basically the norm X 1000 for every other NPC. Mind you its relatively new but jeeez having played a bunch of her scenarios I'd rather have her than most of the leadership of the PFS.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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The first time I dealt with her was Night March, which left a favorable impression. The rest was neutral. Then finally, much later, I did Race for the Runecarved Key, and found where all the hate came from.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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The first time I dealt with her was Night March, which left a favorable impression. The rest was neutral. Then finally, much later, I did Race for the Runecarved Key, and found where all the hate came from.
There's quite some chatter in the GM thread of March about tweaking the intro. As written she waits until the last possible moment to brief you so that you can't do any useful preparation.
I've noticed that a GM's prejudices can also carry over. GMs who dislike a particular VC will for example paraphrase the briefing to emphasize the VC's foolishness/malice even if the current scenario doesn't actually feature it.
I've played Echoes of the Overwatched with a GM who played Nigel as being dismissive of all our concerns and scolding us for our colleague who got into trouble. When I read the scenario later on it was actually the reverse, as written he calls us in because he's honestly concerned about the missing dude.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I'm currently rereading some of her mission briefings, and they range from competent (Sanos Abduction) to extremely businesslike (Words of the Ancients) to "why am I even here?" Golemworks Incident is a big offender in this, but the conceit of the story is also that a seemingly simple task turns way worse than expected.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I'm not 100% certain, but I believe most characters have guidelines. Drendle Dreng is supposed to be enigmatic, Aram Zey is supposed to be a bit dismissive, and so on. Authors can sneak something past QA, but in general I think behaviour is dictated from above, with some leeway from extenuating circumstances.
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Around here people just go "Oh no" usually as she's usually associated with the Season 4 difficulty. "Welp, we're all dead."
People do much the same here for Drandle Dreng too, though.
Around here, Osprey is absolutely loathed, but everyone was super happy when Eliza Petulengro showed up.
Side Note: I think there's some regional bias too. Some GMs in a certain area might play NPCs a certain way because that's how other GMs in the area did so.
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My first real experience with her was in Shattered Star, and
tends to earn you a lot of goodwill. Her portrayal around my playgroup has always been very sympathetic.
Of course, none of us around here have played Runecarved Key either, which seems like it might be relevant.
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You know Race for the Runecarved Key is bad when it makes a usually chill stoner character throw a disintegrate and sirocco party. That was Mickey's retirement gift to himself. Also, had we known the bidding amounts were as low as they were, we would have pooled the cash ourselves instead of being street thugs.
I think it should be noted that Storval Stairs paints Guaril Karela as being more helpful than her during the briefing and he's not even in the city.
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You know Race for the Runecarved Key is bad when it makes a usually chill stoner character throw a disintegrate and sirocco party. That was Mickey's retirement gift to himself. Also, had we known the bidding amounts were as low as they were, we would have pooled the cash ourselves instead of being street thugs.
I think it should be noted that Storval Stairs paints Guaril Karela as being more helpful than her during the briefing and he's not even in the city.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I'm not 100% certain, but I believe most characters have guidelines. Drendle Dreng is supposed to be enigmatic, Aram Zey is supposed to be a bit dismissive, and so on. Authors can sneak something past QA, but in general I think behaviour is dictated from above, with some leeway from extenuating circumstances.
Aram Zey isn't just a bit dismissive. Dude is the most powerful Wizard at his level and because of his arrogance chumped out to a bunch of nobodies.
I've been through... maybe a dozen or so adventures with various characters? I can't say I've witnessed any specific trends between Venture Captains, though.
They always seem to be the stock, "Here's the thing. Now go."
Of course, all my characters are still first level with the exception of one, who leveled up in adventures (Godsmouth Heresy, Thornkeep) outside the standard PFS format. So, maybe I simply haven't encountered any politics yet. But even with twists, they've all been straightforward (including "Here's the twist, now deal with it.")
I've just... not seen much in the way of storylines between adventures?
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Because of how I played out Season 4, we always assumed that Heidmarch...
Grand Master Torch I would presume.What are the worst personality aspects of Eleminister, and who's GMT?I think it's more that we are told she is supposed to be competent and good at her job, but repeatedly shown all of the proverbial "blond moments" and how uncaring she really is.
In a lot of ways, she kind of combines the worst personality aspects of Eleminister and the better ones of GMT, but just winds up making players (not characters) angry and turning them off.
Okay. Now I just need to know about their aforementioned problematic personality traits
Okay, so you know the problems of the GMPC, the NPC that tags along with the party and steals all the glory and can't be hurt or defeated because they're the GM's pet PC?
Elminster is canonically that guy.
Basically, it doesn't matter what he says or what he does within the Forgotten Realms because he's the good guy and the best and that's final.
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Basically, a lot of people don't like Sheila because writing for her is all over the place. When she's good she good, when she's bad she's horrible. Though to be fair, when she's at her worst she's not as bad as a handful of current/former faction leaders like Maldris, Zarta, Karela (though at least he does stuff with style). As far as people whining about her lack of info, that more on how scenarios have to work in PFS than on the VC.
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Basically, a lot of people don't like Sheila because writing for her is all over the place. When she's good she good, when she's bad she's horrible. Though to be fair, when she's at her worst she's not as bad as a handful of current/former faction leaders like Maldris, Zarta, Karela (though at least he does stuff with style). As far as people whining about her lack of info, that more on how scenarios have to work in PFS than on the VC.
I don't mind new Zarta. It's nice having her be more than a cardboard cutout with 'hedonism' written all over.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Basically, a lot of people don't like Sheila because writing for her is all over the place. When she's good she good, when she's bad she's horrible. Though to be fair, when she's at her worst she's not as bad as a handful of current/former faction leaders like Maldris, Zarta, Karela (though at least he does stuff with style). As far as people whining about her lack of info, that more on how scenarios have to work in PFS than on the VC.
Zarta suffers from an issue which I've noticed a few times where she was arguably pretty offensively one note and then someone decided to roll it back.
Also, your underplaying how little information you can get in Shelia's missions. One of her briefings was literally,"Something bad might happen. Not really sure what but go find out."
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Okay. Now I just need to know about their aforementioned problematic personality traits
Grandmaster Torch was basically the one Venture-Captian/Faction Head that actually willingly gave out useful information that might be pertinent, and gave an honest crap if Pathfinfder agents came back alive. But, he also, very clearly had his own agenda. Like with Shelia, up until travesty that was Rivalry's End, DM's running him really tended to present him outside of the scope he was written based on their perceived bias and in what order they had played/run scenario's involving the character, ranging from a trusted friend that actually remembered agent's names to a sleazy, self-center scumbag.
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Both Grandmaster Torch and Shelia had been active "quest givers" at the same time, so trying to say that a lot of the hatred towards Shelia comes from difficulty ramping up is sort of bogus. It's really more the way the two characters where written and presented (as written if not by individual DM's). Shelia purposefully withheld very pertinent information and really didn't give a crap about agent's except for how it affected her little agenda. Torch did actually tend to go out of his way to make sure everyone knew just how deadly things might be, and if he knew something that seemed pertinent, he tended to tell the group up front, if it didn't outright harm him financially or politically. Shelia sends in teams to recover the information the last tpk team might have gotten, and make sure the ordeal is kept under wraps, while GMT game the Pathfinder Society's leadership the finger, to their face, and went and tried to rescue that team, or at least get their bodies back.
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Basically, a lot of people don't like Sheila because writing for her is all over the place. When she's good she good, when she's bad she's horrible. Though to be fair, when she's at her worst she's not as bad as a handful of current/former faction leaders like Maldris, Zarta, Karela (though at least he does stuff with style). As far as people whining about her lack of info, that more on how scenarios have to work in PFS than on the VC.I don't mind new Zarta. It's nice having her be more than a cardboard cutout with 'hedonism' written all over.
I've gotta agree with you there, I've liked Zarta the last couple of times I've seen her show up in scenarios. In general it seems like they've been trying to dial back a lot of our notable NPC's worst traits, andrrying to make them seem a lot more likable. I'd like to continue to see more from our faction heads. And Guaril, just more Guaril in general, he's pretty awesome.
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Also, your underplaying how little information you can get in Shelia's missions. One of her briefings was literally,"Something bad might happen. Not really sure what but go find out."
I mean, isn't that why we're Pathfinders? There are a fair number of scenarios that are like that. I don't really mind too much if we don't have much or any info beforehand. As long as I know what we're supposed to do I don't really care about any beforehand, just point the party in a direction and pull the trigger. I don't have too much of a dog in the fight though, I haven't really cared too strongly about any of the NPC's lately, though I appreciate the direction that they seem to be moving in.
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I've gotta agree with you there, I've liked Zarta the last couple of times I've seen her show up in scenarios. In general it seems like they've been trying to dial back a lot of our notable NPC's worst traits, andrrying to make them seem a lot more likable. I'd like to continue to see more from our faction heads. And Guaril, just more Guaril in general, he's pretty awesome.
"Uncle Guaril was very understanding and respectful when I told him his plan in a cozy little hamlet called Tamran was not a good one, and I gave him a *much better one* that we *all* benefited from. Definitely trust him over that Qadiran guy, who basically told us to go to some city in Druma and play nice, and then didn't mention that certain things might be handy even when we asked..."
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Venture-Lieutenant, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Also, your underplaying how little information you can get in Shelia's missions. One of her briefings was literally,"Something bad might happen. Not really sure what but go find out."I mean, isn't that why we're Pathfinders? There are a fair number of scenarios that are like that. I don't really mind too much if we don't have much or any info beforehand. As long as I know what we're supposed to do I don't really care about any beforehand, just point the party in a direction and pull the trigger. I don't have too much of a dog in the fight though, I haven't really cared too strongly about any of the NPC's lately, though I appreciate the direction that they seem to be moving in.
No. I like that scenario because quite literally all you know is something bad is happening which it wouldn't surprise me at all that Shelia wasn't the venture captain to make fun of the complaints. Its amazing too because its so nondescript as to what you do by the end of it you don't even find out what you really stopped.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I would like to think that a PFS legal character sheet and 300 word count personality description was on file for main characters and VCs in the PFS setting for writers to draw on...
Not that she needs a PFS-legal character sheet, but the published information about Captain Heidmarch has been inconsistent. She's a mid-level monk without UMD, but apparently can trigger complicated magic items like the Rune-bound Key.
Then again, she broke it the first time she tried to use it.