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I'm making a half-orc inquisitor of Desna and was thinking of grabbing a starknife, but realized it's 24gp, which is more than a greataxe.
Wondering how everyone else approaches favoured weapons for priestly characters.
1) Do you typically use your deity's favoured weapon?
2) If you don't use it, do you carry one anyway?
3) Does this vary much depending on how good the deity's weapon is?
4) Does this vary depending on how strongly you feel the deity is associated with their weapon (eg Shelyn's glaive vs Gozreh's trident)?
5) How often does favoured weapon affect your choice of deity?
6) Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?
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#1 depends if there is a mechanical reason to do so.
#2 depends if there is a mechanical reason to do so.
#3 See 1 & 2.
#4 It's as important as what the deity wears so not much IMO.
#5 Like #1 or #2, if there a mechanical reason I should prefer it over another weapon I like more. For example, if my character's main stat is Cha, I might care that Desna's fighting style lets me use Cha with the starknife.
#6 cuz exotic are more expensive than other weapon for reasons... For instance a hand crossbow costs twice that of a heavy one or 3 times as much as light for the same reason.
1. Usually. It's thematic so sure. But often I'll play a warpriest or cleric of a particular deity for a deity's favoured weapon, and then work from there.
2. I use any other weapon, it's usually a morningstar.
3. Obviously.
4. Not particularly. It's not like your patron is going to punish you for not utilising their favoured weapon.
5. Often. Unless I have some other thematic idea, I'll usually be looking for good weapons.
6. Exotic weapon. Kind of thematic reasons. Honestly, starknives are weirdly weak and I don't know why :P
I usually try to go close for deeply religious characters. Like if I have a Dwarven Paladin or Warpriest, I might not roll with the warhammer, but would probably pick the Longhammer over most options for its appropriateness.
Like right now I have a Shelynite Swashbuckler who uses a Fauchard (Martial Versatility + Bladed Brush), which is basically a glaive with the sharp edge on the other side.
1) Do you typically use your deity's favoured weapon?
2) If you don't use it, do you carry one anyway?
3) Does this vary much depending on how good the deity's weapon is?
4) Does this vary depending on how strongly you feel the deity is associated with their weapon (eg Shelyn's glaive vs Gozreh's trident)?
5) How often does favoured weapon affect your choice of deity?
6) Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?
1) Typically, yeah. Just makes sense and enables a few extra options, and damage dice won't be a big deal in the long run.
2) Yeah, generally it'll at least be a backup weapon even if not the one I build around.
3) Yeah, but not a lot. Just whether it matches the build I want reasonably, like if I'm planning a critical build, I'm not going to be emphasizing a 20/x2 weapon.
4) Absolutely. Otherwise I probably wouldn't have been as okay with dropping 2k on Effortless Lace just so my TWF paladin of Iomedae could finesse a longsword.
5) Outright "I want to use a greatsword, who has that as a favored weapon", no. Just, like, scimitars are cool and beautiful and reasonably well-statted, and maybe that slightly increases my opinion of Sarenrae so I might be a little more inclined to pick her if I'm unsure of what deity to go with, for example.
6) Starknives just make no freaking sense to me in general. James Jacobs, if you're reading this, I want to see you try to fight with one. :P
6. Exotic weapon. Kind of thematic reasons. Honestly, starknives are weirdly weak and I don't know why :P
#6 cuz exotic are more expensive than other weapon for reasons... For instance a hand crossbow costs twice that of a heavy one or 3 times as much as light for the same reason.
but it isn't exotic. It's martial and light. It weighs only 1/4th of a greataxe. A starknife's price is stupid.
6) Starknives just make no freaking sense to me in general. James Jacobs, if you're reading this, I want to see you try to fight with one. :P
Watch more Xena :P. A starknife fighting style is pretty close to a chakram. Maybe like if a shuriken and a chakram had a baby.
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1) For a super-dedicated character, absolutely. I have this Reliquarian of Desna in the works who does everything possible with a Starknife.
2) Indeed I do.
3) See the Reliquarian... being good is obviously not my first priority.
4) Yes. Desna is pretty inseparable from her Starknife as Sarenrae is from her Scimitars, but that's not always the case and a super-dedicated follower is more interested in what their deity is attached to rather than what they happen to most often use.
5) Not really. Brigh is a favourite of mine, and her weapon isn't too impressive; the same for Shelyn (although that got cooler with Bladed Brush even though I still like Str-to-pain polearms). However, it can sometimes help, especially with Sarenrae who has this whole beautiful Arabic vibe with the scimitars.
6) It's probably pretty difficult to build one well-balanced enough to actually use for anything, so that could up the price. It's also a pretty exotic design, and I wonder which military puts enough use into it for it to be a Martial weapon instead of Exotic.
Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?
Danger allowance. You try forging one without eviscerating yourself in the process!
but it isn't exotic.
I meant unusual and little used instead of the weapon category. Some weapons just get a bump in price just for that.
I can see now that was confusing. My bad. ;)
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Guess I should chip in myself.
This is only my third priestly character with an actual deity (as opposed to druids). The previous two both used their deity's favoured weapon, scimitar and shortsword. So:
1) I do prefer to use my deity's favoured weapon.
2) If I don't use it as my primary weapon I'd like to at least have one.
3) The fact that the starknife is not a great weapon is the reason I'm having doubts about using one or even having one as a backup at level 1 (It's a good chunk of my starting gold for a backup).
4) Yeah, if Desna was less associated with the starknife I'd feel a lot less torn about not using one.
5) Favoured weapon affects my deity choice sometimes. I was tempted to make this an Inquisitor of Shelyn for the glaive, but Desna just seemed like a better fit for the character I wanted to play. I wanted my previous Inquisitor to have sword proficiency, which pointed me at a subset of deities.
6) Weird stuff does often come at a bit of a premium - the blade boot is similarly 25gp. But you can get a lot of odd or exotic-category weapons for relatively cheap. A ripsaw glaive, aka a low-tech chainsaw is only 30gp. And speaking of favoured weapons, a Callistran only needs to spend 1gp to have a whip.
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1) If it's not something terrible, like a Starknife, I usually do.
2) Even if I don't, I'll keep one. They often make good backup weapons. Except for starknives.
3) A little bit, yeah. But it's more that they just need to not be a really terrible weapon.
4) I used to, but eventually stopped caring. At the end of the day the weapon is a symbol of office as much as anything else.
5) I'll only build around the favored weapon if I like the deity anyway and the faith really works. Shelyn tempts me by having a reach weapon quite a bit, but Shelyn and her faith are really cool anyway so I often find myself gravitating towards Shelynites. On the other hand, I wouldn't make a Gorumite even for Greatsword proficiency or that delicious divine fighting technique.
I did also pick Erastil when deciding on an archer Warpriest to fill in some needed roles in our Carrion Crown party. I don't normally like that particular deity, but what sold me was playing a relatively ordinary country lad in a particularly superstition-themed campaign alongside a very exotic party. And I have not regretted this choice at all.
6) To compensate the blacksmith for committing crimes against their profession. You made them forge a freaking starknife, after all!
I'm making a half-orc inquisitor of Desna and was thinking of grabbing a starknife, but realized it's 24gp, which is more than a greataxe.
Wondering how everyone else approaches favoured weapons for priestly characters.
1) Do you typically use your deity's favoured weapon?
2) If you don't use it, do you carry one anyway?
3) Does this vary much depending on how good the deity's weapon is?
4) Does this vary depending on how strongly you feel the deity is associated with their weapon (eg Shelyn's glaive vs Gozreh's trident)?
5) How often does favoured weapon affect your choice of deity?
6) Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?
1) depends how religious I am, or how rotten my deity's weapon is...
2) yeah, I'll carry one if I'm skilled in its use, out of principle, even if I never use it.
3) yes it does, my character is much more likely to use his deity's weapon it there is mechanical motive to do so, if there isn't he might use something more interesting, fighting is to the death, not to the most faithful.
4) I'm not sure... in a Greek themed campaign a preast of Poseidon would most likely use a trident... but I've given the same priests of Poseidon flails that were holy to that god (in AD&D 1ed, true)
5) seldom, unless I happen to choose my favored weapon and <THEN shop for a god to go with it, but I've never done that yet.
6) no idea,
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3) See the Reliquarian... being good is obviously not my first priority.
WAIT A SECOND. This sounds off... what I mean to say is that being the best with the weapon alone is obviously not my first priority. I promise y'all, the character could be pretty effective in general.
She's not actually very good at most Desna-y stuff, given that she's a Dwarf with all the force of personality of a dry cracker, but she's a decent combatant at any range and excellent at survival and exploration, as well as skills in general.
Wondering how everyone else approaches favoured weapons for priestly characters.
1) Do you typically use your deity's favoured weapon?
If it makes sense for both the mechanical build and for the the character's personality.
2) If you don't use it, do you carry one anyway?
Depends entirely on the weapon and the character concept. A Pharasmin cleric can probably find a use for that dagger even if they don't fight with it. A Kuthite dedicated to easily-concealed weapons probably isn't going to drag a spiked chain around.
3) Does this vary much depending on how good the deity's weapon is?
Of course. It's a lot easier to justify investing the effort to be good with something effective.
It's not a determining factor, by any means, but it definitely features in the calculations.
4) Does this vary depending on how strongly you feel the deity is associated with their weapon (eg Shelyn's glaive vs Gozreh's trident)?
Not really.
5) How often does favoured weapon affect your choice of deity?
Almost never. I wouldn't have run nearly as many Pharasmins as I have if I cared about favored weapons.
6) Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?
x3 Crit mod, good throwing range*, can be used in an off-hand with minimal penalties, and can benefit from Weapon Finesse... all I got.
* Note that paying this much for a weapon you will quite possibly be throwing away is, indeed, silly, and a Javelin is generally superior for chucking purposes since it costs way, way, WAY less.
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3) See the Reliquarian... being good is obviously not my first priority.WAIT A SECOND. This sounds off... what I mean to say is that being the best with the weapon alone is obviously not my first priority. I promise y'all, the character could be pretty effective in general.
She's not actually very good at most Desna-y stuff, given that she's a Dwarf with all the force of personality of a dry cracker, but she's a decent combatant at any range and excellent at survival and exploration, as well as skills in general.
Curious - any particular strategies you're using to pull off the "decent combatant" part of that, if you're using the starknife?
On the other hand, I wouldn't make a Gorumite even for Greatsword proficiency or that delicious divine fighting technique.
I'll agree with you there - favoured weapon might influence my choice but I'd never play a deity I wasn't interested in just because the favoured weapon is neat/powerful.
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3) See the Reliquarian... being good is obviously not my first priority.WAIT A SECOND. This sounds off... what I mean to say is that being the best with the weapon alone is obviously not my first priority. I promise y'all, the character could be pretty effective in general.
She's not actually very good at most Desna-y stuff, given that she's a Dwarf with all the force of personality of a dry cracker, but she's a decent combatant at any range and excellent at survival and exploration, as well as skills in general.
Curious - any particular strategies you're using to pull off the "decent combatant" part of that, if you're using the starknife?
Well, first of all we get some nice 6-level casting with medium armour that's not going to get in the way with those nasty spell failure chances and decent HD/BAB with a racial Con bonus. Also, this build calls for excellent Dex and good Wisdom, so her saves are going to be aaall right.
Give her at least a +1 Starknife with a Blinkback Belt at the bare minimum.
Then we have Legacy Weapon with Bane and Conductive, Energy Ray to get lots of sneak-attack-level damage with that Conductive that can be tailored to specific resistances and Warding Talisman with Mind Barrier for preventing ouchies. (That's Transmutation, Evocation and Abjuration.)
Make sure to pick up Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting and Quick Draw. Her Focus Powers should probably be Energy Shield, Energy Blast, Light Matrix and Quickness (she'll already be flying from her Azata subdomain).
All of this is entirely possible by 7th Level. Of course, this is as of yet a theoretical build since I haven't had a chance to play her; it's also definitely not optimal. However, she seems to do pretty decent damage in weapon-y combat even though she's generally designed for blasting and utility (mmmm all that Pragmatic Activator UMD). She's not meant to be a full combatant, but she can hold her own alright.
Really not sure where past me got the "at any range" part of that though; she's awful in melee. I guess I thought I had the feats to get Weapon Finesse. She's going to have little Strength, because her Starknife should never need to actually do its own damage what with Bane etcetera and she doesn't care about encumbrance; her Charisma is also going to be awful. She's MAD, but not toooo MAD.
Hope that was an ok answer!
I was always very disappointed with the Deity weapons. They're just... lame. Giving the ability to use a deities favored weapon as a bonus... then giving Deities simple weapons like quarterstaff and dagger is just boring.
I've played a Paladin and an Inquisitor and never bothered with the favored weapon at all. just didn't fit the character type.
6) Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?
I could very easily be totally wrong here... but didn't the Star Knife have baked in "returning" back in it's original write up?
I know James Jacobs had it work that way in his original campaign world...
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I tend to play that for a cleric, the deity's favored weapon must be primary. It's OK to carry one or two other weapons for other damage types or melee/ranged variation, but I see the favored weapon as a major part of a deity's flavor. In fact, I think this is a major flaw with the ecclesitheurge. When making a cleric, the first two things I buy are a holy symbol and then the favored weapon. I would even go without armor for a while before switching weapons if I had to.
For a warpriest or paladin, the favored weapon is much less important. It's probably a good weapon to have, but need not be primary.
For me, whether I use the favored weapon depends on how well it fits the rest of the character concept. For example, if I want a melee-focused cleric, a martial favored weapon will probably become the character's primary attack, especially if it's, say, a longsword or greatsword.
If the god's favored weapon is already on the class list, then it will be primary if it's a decent damage-dealer (like a morningstar) or if the character is optimized for it (high Dex, Weapon Finesse, light favored weapon). Otherwise, I'll probably take it as a backup weapon, especially if it does a different damage type (sickle vs. morningstar, for example).
Of my two most recent divine characters, one (a tengu cleric of Iomedae) rarely used his goddess's longsword. His race made him proficient with all swords, so Weapon Finesse and an elven curve blade was a better choice for him. The other (my PFS rogue) already favored the rapier before multiclassing as a cleric of Caiden Cailean, so still fights with one.
In my new homebrew campaign, we have two divine PCs. The inquisitor's dragon god has the spiked gauntlet as a favored weapon, so she started with a morningstar (cheap, two damage types) and a spiked gauntlet as backup (in case she's disarmed). But now that she can afford a falchion, with which she has weapon familiarity as a half-orc, that's her primary weapon.
The cleric worships the goddess of magic, who has the starknife as a favored weapon. As a multiclassed wizard, she will be avoiding melee as much as possible, but she carries a couple starknives because they're symbols of her goddess and better than her daggers.
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Hope that was an ok answer!
Yes, it was interesting. The range on a starknife certainly would be an advantage for a throwing build once you get the blinkback belt (and aren't concerned about having a lot of cheap knives to toss). Unfortunately there wasn't much of it that I can use for my own character - I'll be pleasantly surprised if I hit level 5 so I'm not keen on a build that starts coming together around that level.
I could very easily be totally wrong here... but didn't the Star Knife have baked in "returning" back in it's original write up?
Man, that would have been sweet! Probably decided it was a bit powerful, though.
For a warpriest or paladin, the favored weapon is much less important. It's probably a good weapon to have, but need not be primary.
Is that because proficiency with all martial weapons implies that they are expected to use weapons other than their deity's?
I could very easily be totally wrong here... but didn't the Star Knife have baked in "returning" back in it's original write up?Man, that would have been sweet! Probably decided it was a bit powerful, though.
Yeah, it would have made thrown weapons a functionable playstyle, of course they had to change that!
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I could very easily be totally wrong here... but didn't the Star Knife have baked in "returning" back in it's original write up?Man, that would have been sweet! Probably decided it was a bit powerful, though.
Here's how to make it balanced: you need to ricochet it back to you which requires skill and finesse, so... feat!
Inspired by the graceful yet capricious nature of the Song of the Spheres, you have found a way to keep her signature weapon close to heart while using it to strike from afar.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 15, Weapon Focus (Starknife), Point-Blank Shot, Worshipper of Desna
Benefit(s): When making a ranged attack with a Starknife as a Standard Action, you may choose to take a -2 penalty on your attack roll in order to attempt to ricochet the weapon off your opponent's armor and/or another suitably hard surface within line of sight, catching the Starknife on the rebound if the attack succeeds. This effect otherwise works like the Ricochet Toss feat.
If this attack misses by less than 5, you may make a Reflex saving throw with a DC equal to your attack roll. If this saving throw succeeds, you may catch the projectile as if you had hit successfully.
You must declare your use of this feat before the attack roll is made, and it requires the target to be entirely visible, lacking any Concealment.
Special: This counts as having the Ricochet Toss feat for the purposes of using the Ace Disarm feat.
But then I thought, ok that works and is quite nice for making it more viable without magic, better than Returning (since you can move around after attacking and still have a melee weapon for AoOs), but can I make it better?
Awed by the Starsong's epic performances, you have developed a way to create echoes of your attacks in the same way that Desna's voice echoes betwixt the celestial bodies.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 17, Weapon Focus (Starknife), Point-Blank Shot, Starsong Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Worshipper of Desna
Benefit(s): When using Starsong Style, you may apply its effects to any ranged attack within a Full-Attack Action or any ranged Attack of Opportunity, provided that those attacks are performed with a Starknife. This also applies to abilities that are functionally identical to Full-Attack Actions, such as Spell Combat or Flurry of Blows.
When using this ability, you may catch the ricocheting Starknife in your off-hand and make another ranged attack with it as if it were a light off-hand weapon. You may switch between hands in this manner until you have no more attacks or until you miss an attack. This allows you to fight as if with two weapons, even though you are only using one.
Special: When using Starsong Style with Two-Weapon Fighting, you only take the highest attack roll penalty; they do not stack.
Aha, so now it's a Blinkback feat? Obviously a Blinkback feat with more risk and the chance to ruin your chances with an early failure, but quiiite nice, especially since it removes the need to have more than one Starknife for dual-wielding. So how do we get better from here?
You have been enlightened by Desna's wonder and you have been empowered with her celestial fire as you weave constellations through your fallen foes.
Prerequisite(s): Dex 19, Weapon Focus (Starknife), Point-Blank Shot, Starsong Style, Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Starsong Echo, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Deific Obedience, Worshipper of Desna
Benefit(s): When applying Starsong Style to an attack within a Full-Attack Action, you may move up to 1/3 your movement speed, the Starknife ricocheting to your new location. For every successful attack you make while moving, you gain 1d4 extra fire damage against your next target. This damage is cumulative, but is reset each time you fail to move at least 5 feet during an attack.
You gain a Luck bonus to AC against Attacks of Opportunity during this movement equal to the number of dice of extra damage you can inflict, and any Starknife used for this purpose leaves a trail as a Shooting Starknife.
Special: If you possess the Symbolic Weapon class feature, you may convert the damage to d8s of untyped divine damage for 1 round by expending a use of your 1st Boon Spell-Like-Ability as an Immediate Action.
Ahh yes, making Shot On The Run better will do the trick! That's worth Mobility, no? Still the chance to fudge your first attack and get nothing more than 1/3rd movement for your trouble, but if you get a lucky streak you'll... well, you'll have a literal lucky streak trailing behind you and you'll be setting everything on fire as well. It also helps that it makes Sentinels better, which is nice since they seem to be the Fighter of the Boon Prestiges. Could get ridiculous with Rapid Shot and Greater TWF, if you can find some way to ensure that you actually hit with those extra attacks. (Apologies if some of the wording is slightly convoluted; I have a whole new respect for Paizo editors.)
So... does this make a Starknife viable? Too viable? Would a Master of Many Styles have way too much fun with this and Startoss? Could a Myrmidon pull this off? What about a Flying Blade?
Well, you need a horrifying number of feats. Ranged, TWF, Style, WF, etc
Unless your first 6 levels are Fighter or human Warpriest I don't see it work.
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Well, you need a horrifying number of feats. Ranged, TWF, Style, WF, etc
Unless your first 6 levels are Fighter or human Warpriest I don't see it work.
I just put in what made sense for each one, to be honest. Plus styles are usually supposed to be feat-heavy, so the pure martials get the most out of them. It's only the last one that needs a TON of feats, anyway. For the given effect, it's hard to argue against any of those specific feats being there.
A human follower of Desna can get the basic feat by level 3 if she's not a Fighter, which is pretty nice for making a throwing weapon moderately effective.
(Actually, you could probably do without needing Dodge for Echo... it was only put in because Mobility on its own looked weird. It's the only feat that doesn't need to be there though.)
Well, you need a horrifying number of feats.
Welcome to dex and/or thrown based combat...
6) Why is the starknife so expensive, anyway?I could very easily be totally wrong here... but didn't the Star Knife have baked in "returning" back in it's original write up?
I know James Jacobs had it work that way in his original campaign world...
Higher crit mod and higher range incriment on a light blade weapon. For a thrower build I'd pay the 22 extra gold over the dagger (if i have martial weapon proff at least)
and the startoss style feats work best with it because of its range incriment
Note: For a starknife-focused character, you don't need the Startoss Style feats: Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Starknife), Starry Grace, Martial Focus (Light Blades or Thrown), and Ricochet Toss give Dex to damage and allow full attacks at range with a single starknife. Granted, the Startoss Comet/Startoss Shower extra attacks are at full BAB (instead of iteratives) and the extra damage helps.
Starknives can have str, dex, wis or cha to damage fairly easily. The high cost may be due to magic or exotic materials in their construction.
My inquisitor of Desna/sentinel has a starknife and he's pretty effective with it. (10th level inquisitor, 5th level sentinel.) For combat-related feats, he's got:
-Weapon Finesse
-Weapon Focus (starknife)
-Starry Grace
-Guided Star
-Improved Critical
And his sentinel levels give him bonuses with the starknife as well (symbolic weapon).
He's also mythic, which helps. Mythic abilities focused around his starknife include:
-Wanderer's Touch (Desna-specific, gives your weapon throwing/returning for a minute and lets you attack multiple enemies by spending a mythic point)
-Mythic Weapon Focus
-Mythic Improved Critical
But that won't apply if you aren't in a mythic campaign.
Starknives are great for bards of Desna and oracles of Desna, because they use CHA to hit and damage. It's also better used as primary a melee weapon, because thrown weapons suck badly in this game.
Besides that, Longspears have reach and are simple weapons. If not, morning stars are good options too.
Starknives can have str, dex, wis or cha to damage fairly easily. The high cost may be due to magic or exotic materials in their construction.How do you get Wisdom to Damage?
Guided enchant I assume.
Starknives can have str, dex, wis or cha to damage fairly easily. The high cost may be due to magic or exotic materials in their construction.How do you get Wisdom to Damage?
Only once per day, I forgot: Guided Star Combat. Though there was a guided magic weapon property put out by Paizo in the 3.5 days which added wis to attack and damage.
Per character level.Only once per day, I forgot: Guided Star Combat. Though there was a guided magic weapon property put out by Paizo in the 3.5 days which added wis to attack and damage.Starknives can have str, dex, wis or cha to damage fairly easily. The high cost may be due to magic or exotic materials in their construction.How do you get Wisdom to Damage?
To an absolute max of 5 attacks a round. Really hate that the feat chain doesn't work for dual-wielding or flurry. The two places where high dex and high wis would be best