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So a wizard in my home group is multiclassing into Monk for a few levels ("Hey, no armor = no armor"), with the goal of delivering a few karate chops to the bad guys when he's out of spells (which is often).
Any suggestions on feats, gear, skills, etc.?
Well, my first thought is "no, don't do it." If he's concerned about armor, the mage armor spell provides the armor bonus of a 15th level monk and costs only a spell slot. If he's worried about running out of spells, pearls of power and wands are both very cheap. And if he simply wants to hurt the bad guys, using a longspear at reach will let him whack them with relative impunity from behind the fighter.
If he insists on doing this, though,...
* Feats : he's not going to be combat effective enough to justify spending any of his level-up feats on non-wizard stuff, but there are a few good monk tricks out there. He gets Improved Unarmed Strike for free, and has enough intelligence to make Combat Expertise possibly worth taking for the additional AC. This, in turn, opens up Improved Trip, which could be useful as an alternative to beating on people with his wimpy strength.
* Gear : Monks don't need gear. That's the whole point. Give him a rice bowl and a straw hat and let him pretend to be Bruce Lee. Then spend the money he otherwise would have on a pearl of power or two.
* Skills : Monks get a lot of class skills that wizards don't, and he will probably have enough skill points to take advantage of them. Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Stealth, and so forth are all useful skills and putting one point in each gives him a +3 class skill bonus, so it's a four-for-one deal. Take as many (new) class skills as he likes, and then keep pumping the wizard skills he wants to keep maximized.
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Depending on how his attributes are allocated, this is either a bad idea or an extremely bad idea. Monk/Wizard multiclass is one of those things that looks tenable on paper (as you say, no armor) but in practice the dissonance between the two classes completely wipes out any synergy they might have in theory. The wizard's low base attack bonus means you'll never be able to land hits reliable so all of the offensive class features of the Monk go to waste, and Monk levels do not advance your Wizard spellcasting so you will have fewer spells per day and the spells you do have will be considerably weaker. Overall it just ends up being a character who is incompetent both as a Monk and as a Wizard.
Overall, I'd raise big warning flags. Unless the player in question is very experienced and is capable of optimizing to a very high level I would advise that he not do this.
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98% of the time wizard multiclassing for some melee power is BAD IDEA. For that kind of thing you have Magus class or the Dragon Disciple prestige class. He is a wizard; if the enemy arrives to you (something that should be fairly rare), he has spells like Mirror Image or Mage Armor.
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Depending on how his attributes are allocated, this is either a bad idea or an extremely bad idea.
Is "extremely bad" as low as the scale goes?
Seriously,.... wizards are the textbook example of SAD (single attribute dependence), in that they need Intelligence and nothing else. I can make a playable wizard on zero point buy (16 Intelligence, 8 everywhere else). At the same time, monks are among the most MAD (multiple attribute dependence) classes out there, and, in particular, Intelligence (and possibly Charisma) is the one attribute they don't need.
So any stat arrangement that would be an acceptable monk would be a terribad wizard and vice versa. Add to that the fact that the original monk is one of the poorer classes in the game (and the unchained monk only manages to scale the lofty heights of "mediocre"), this combination starts to look like a cinnamon-and-mayonnaise sandwich.
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Seems to me he should have Went with fighter and went into Eldritch Knight if he wanted a wizard with some fighting abilities. This way he is still a 9th level caster by the end of his career.
Monk is extremely MAD class and Wizard does not share the same Attributes in the build.
Has he built the character yet? The Forums here can help him brew something up that is playable.
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Wait, he's out of spells often? First, what level is he? Second, can that be shored up with a wand or crossbow?
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At 5th level, I'd definitely recommend he either invest in wands or the Craft Wand feat, then, and carry a couple wands of his favorite combat spells, then.
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If the problem is that he goes through his spells too quickly, get him some wands and scrolls. Summoned monsters stay around a few rounds so he can fight through them and not waste all of his spells on mooks. Usually it is not a good idea to use all your spells in the first fight of the day. Remember that cantrips are usable infinite times per day. So he can lob acid splashes or shoot rays of frost all day long.
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I have to agree with my esteemed colleagues here. There's no problem a tiny amount of gold won't fix.
A 1gp set of brass knuckles will let your player do 1d3 lethal damage with a punch, and since he's armed with a weapon, does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A third level monk only does 1d6 with an unarmed attack, so he's gaining a spell-casting level and "losing" one and a half points of damage on an average hit.
The acid splash cantrip also does 1d3 of damage, but attacks at range (so it uses his Dexterity instead of wimpy Strength) and hits touch AC, so his low attack bonus is less of a problem. And it can be used infinitely, so he will never run out.
And if AC is a problem.... well, mage armor is a first level spell and lasts for hours. A wand is 750 gp (half that if you make it yourself) and provides 50 hours of protection. A pearl of power can be re-used indefinitely and costs less than three wands.
At fifth level, he can get the wand, the pearl, and the brass knucks for pocket change.
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Remember that cantrips are usable infinite times per day. So he can lob acid splashes or shoot rays of frost all day long.
Unless he took both conjuration and evocation as his opposed schools. (A logical choice for a diviner from a character standpoint, but definitely a suboptimal build for combat.) However, he could still learn those cantrips and prep one by using up two slots.
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Remember that cantrips are usable infinite times per day. So he can lob acid splashes or shoot rays of frost all day long.Unless he took both conjuration and evocation as his opposed schools. (A logical choice for a diviner from a character standpoint, but definitely a suboptimal build for combat.) However, he could still learn those cantrips and prep one by using up two slots.
Transmutation- Jolt
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I'm just going to go the other way and say to pick up a level of Unchained Monk, Weapon Finesse, an amulet of mighty fists (possibly with agile) and call it a day. At level 12 (or sooner with a scroll) he can cast Transformation occasionally to mix it up in melee every once in a while to get a change in pace gameplay wise.
Now, he absolutely should do the things other people are saying about wands and scrolls and all the fun wizard stuff, but a one level dip won't kill him and he can occasionally change his play style a bit.
Note: If he wants monk punches to be a key part of his gameplay regularly, he'll need a bigger investment than what I've described.
Note 2: Karate chops > judo throws. Trying to succeed at combat maneuvers as mostly a wizard without extra extra help and specialization is just asking for disappointment. Hitting AC is much easier than beating a big creature's CMD. Also, maybe look at spells that can lower the enemy AC (or perhaps turn the wizard invisible or give some other advantage).
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Note 2: Karate chops > judo throws. Trying to succeed at combat maneuvers as mostly a wizard without extra extra help and specialization is just asking for disappointment. Hitting AC is much easier than beating a big creature's CMD.
I disagree, for the simple reason that in this case even hitting the bad guy with a 1d6 unarmed attack (plus, presumably +0 strength) isn't going to do enough damage to be noticed. If you've got a 50 hit point monster, dropping it to 47 hit points barely counts as scratching the paint and does not substantially reduce his combat effectiveness.
Using a combat maneuver such as Trip (or Dirty Trick, et cetera) has a low probability of hitting, but will have a substantial tactical effect if/when it hits -- and remember that there's always the 5% chance of rolling a 20, which auto-succeed on CMB checks. So the wizard will be substantially more likely to do something effective with the judo throws.
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What about a kineticist instead?
You take an energy blast (targeting touch AC) and can use it infinitely.
Water gives a defense of either +4 AC or +2 shield AC.
Other elements give DR, hit points, natural armor, or something else.
Sure it's only a d6, but he'll always have a fallback when he's out of spells.
You only lose 1 caster level and don't need to use any feats.
And you stay at range rather than getting into melee.
By the time 1d6 is completely irrelevant, he will have enough spells he'll never worry about using his blast again.
Really though, pearls of power, wands, or even a Int boosting item to give him a couple of more spells will work out better in the long run.
Unless he's just missing out on being in melee, in which case a character rebuild to magus might be a better idea.
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Summons don't care for saves. Summon monster 3 lasts 5 rounds with those rules. That is plenty. Stone call offers no save, has huge area and creates difficult terrain for a few rounds. Most of the battlefield control spells offer no saves.
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Thanks for the tips, everyone!
I should note that it's also an Unchained "Limited Magic" game, with preset save DCs and minimum caster levels, so spells aren't too useful in combat.
Ouch. Okay, you can still make a long lasting wizard with this.
A wand of Magic Missile is a bit low at this level,but you have 50 charges and its a garunteed 1d4+1 every round. A wand of Summon Monster 1 lets you get off one decent attack, and even baby's first summons will be hitting at the ae accuracy and damage as a 5th level Wizard with a Monk dip. A wand of Enlarge Person means the party's beeftank is even beefier, and it garuntees that he has a valuable buff for every fight.
Those easily affordable items can hold him until he reaches 7th. By that point he should have enough spells per day to have -something- to do each fight, especially if he replaces any depleted wands.
If that can't do anything for him, then I strongly recommend he rerolls into Kineticist. Assuming the ruling on Limited Magic doesn't dumpster the entire class, he can have all the blasting he wants and some decent utility, especially with Aether.
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Don't take a non-full BAB class with a wizard without a distinct goal in mind. "Giving the bad guys a karate chop" isn't enough of a reason when Acid Splash and Ray of Frost exist as unlimited casts. However, if you want to multiclassing monk, I could see forgoing using your feats on spellcasting and instead grabbing combat maneuvers. Flurry can let you get multiple attempts, your Intelligence helps buy into Combat Expertise, then into Improved Trip or Disarm (even though Toppling Spell and Grease exist...)
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Also, I find a spell like Chill Touch that can last over multiple rounds to be an excellent thematic difference for a wizard. If your friend wants to punch the bad guy, why not do it with magical energy (and worry only about successful touch attacks)?
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To echo just about everyone else, don't do it.
"I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels."
and
"V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice."
You have been warned.
...
Ok. Now if your friend just wants to, and your storyteller is ok with Paizo made content that isn't Pathfinder, there is Kung Fu Genius. But it won't do what he hopes it will do for lots of reasons already mentioned... so... ignore me.
See above; it's a Limited Magic game, so caster levels aren't particularly--no, strike that--at all valuable.To echo just about everyone else, don't do it.
"I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels."
and
"V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice."You have been warned.
So, I guess my next question is: Why did you make a wizard if you aren't allowed to PLAY a wizard? Caster Levels are important to the alchemy of the class and the game. The wizard spell list, in particular, is basically hobbled if you can't expend character resources on raising DCs and CLs. All a wizard has going for them from the class chassis is spells. Removing DC/CL sounds like a DM that doesn't know what they're doing... Sorry if it seems judgmental, but someone made a mistake from the get-go, here.
If the DCs and CLs are pre-set, just don't play a caster. Take a one level dip to activate items without UMD, or optimize UMD out the wazoo and play full Martial. Just go whole-hog into retraining and ditch the dead levels for something more valuable.
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See above; it's a Limited Magic game, so caster levels aren't particularly--no, strike that--at all valuable.To echo just about everyone else, don't do it.
"I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels."
and
"V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice."You have been warned.
I don't think you are understanding, partly because the aphorism is badly phrased.
It's not the "caster level" (in the sense of, for example, a dispel check) that matters, but the levels of caster.
A fourth level wizard, for example, can cast two second level spells. A sixth level wizard can cast three second level and two third level spells. In addition, she likely gets a bonus second level spell for her intelligence in either case, but she gets another bonus third level spell at sixth level. So she not only has substantially more spells (at least four more spells per day), but she also gets radically more powerful spells.
Third level spells, in particular, are game changers. For example, third level gives you haste which will turn your party fighter into a veritable Cuisinart blender of pain. It also gives you fly, which lets you (or someone else) deal with otherwise unsolvable tactical puzzles. It gives you dispel magic, more or less the only way to deal with ongoing hostile magic effects. It gives you magic circle against X, a group immunity to mind-affecting spells. It gives you tongues, which solves any communication issues the party has. (Oh, and it also gives you the first really effective multi-target blast spells.....)
There's nothing that two levels of monk will give you that are worth giving up access to fly and haste. Further up, there's nothing that a level of monk will give you that is more important than dimension door.
And none of those spells (except the blast spells) actually hinge on "caster level," but they do hinge on your being high enough level to cast the spells in the first place.
I think that there is a feat that delivers touch target spells on an unarmed strike.
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I think that there is a feat that delivers touch target spells on an unarmed strike.
You can always deliver touch target spells on an unarmed strike or natural weapon. The thing is, it's easier to deliver a touch target spell if you aren't also trying to hit hard enough to cause pain. Unless you're designed to be a competent melee fighter (and no, a dip into monk is not sufficient), you're better off just making sure you're successfully touching enemies.
I am sure that I read recently that there was a feat specifically for this. Maybe it was for cleric inflict spells.
A wand of Magic Missile is a bit low at this level,but you have 50 charges and its a garunteed 1d4+1 every round.
Why spent the cash on *that*???
Both Acid Splash and Ray of Frost can be augmented by an alchemical focus (vial of acid and liquid ice, respectively) that you just hold in your hand and never use up, and give +1 damage.So that's 1d3+1 on a ranged touch attack based on DEX. Sure, a magic missile always hits, and igonres cover or shooting into combat. But cantrips are *free*, man. Free. And you can do that all day long. And touch attacks aren't hard to land on most critters.
If the wizards really wants a spark of martial ability, he should take a solid martial class like fighter for just one level. Sure, losing a level on a spellcaster hurts, but wizards are (arguably) the strongest class in the game, so it's not going to destroy the PC or the party to lose just one level. Plus, someday, he could shoot for a cool prestige class.
He could instead take a single level in unchained rogue, with similar benefits, but also every once in a while he'll get to add sneak attack damage onto a ranged spell attack. Not entirely wasted.
Suggest he not take additional non-wizard levels though. If he does, he's going to stop being a wizard with a martial hobby and start being a suboptimal fighter with a few spells.
IMHO a wizard-monk could only work if you roll for stats and he got incredibly lucky all across the board. Far too MAD for point buy stats.
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I am sure that I read recently that there was a feat specifically for this. Maybe it was for cleric inflict spells.
There's no need for such a feat, even for cleric inflict spells. Any touch spell can be delivered by an unarmed strike, but most people don't, because it's harder to hit real AC than touch AC....
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A wand of Magic Missile is a bit low at this level,but you have 50 charges and its a garunteed 1d4+1 every round.Why spent the cash on *that*???
Both Acid Splash and Ray of Frost can be augmented by an alchemical focus (vial of acid and liquid ice, respectively) that you just hold in your hand and never use up, and give +1 damage.So that's 1d3+1 on a ranged touch attack based on DEX. Sure, a magic missile always hits, and igonres cover or shooting into combat. But cantrips are *free*, man. Free. And you can do that all day long. And touch attacks aren't hard to land on most critters.
I agree that you would save money by doing the Vial/Cantrip trick. However, firing into melee with an ally in the way (there is ALWAYS an ally in the way) is a net -8 to your attack, and even on touch AC that'a tough sell. 750 gold is a relatively small price to pay at their current level.
I should note that it's also an Unchained "Limited Magic" game, with preset save DCs and minimum caster levels, so spells aren't too useful in combat.
If this is the problem, you can counsel him to compensate...
- Heighten Spell becomes a powerful feat to boost preferred spells
- Spell Focus becomes a lot more necessary
- Spell Specialization still adds +2 CL
- Persistent Spell can really help the failed save chances
That is brilliant. You are brilliant. I would like to change my advice to "do what this guy says"
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Just want to note, do not use wands for combat spells unless they require no save or have leveling effects. A wand of endure element or protection from evil, perfect. Wand of fireball, weak. Wand of create pit, not great at all unless just used tactically.
In this case the OP is playing "Limited magic" therefore a fireball from a wand is identical to a fireball from a 20th level wizard with an int of 50, damage and DC are the same.
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The advice as to which wands to pick is actually a good guide to basic spell selection with Limited Magic. If the spell isn't already good at the earliest level you can cast it, it isn't going to get any better.
Are any other Unchained options for magic in use? As I recall, some of them combine with Limited Magic to boost the effective caster level in some cases.
Also, remember that the Heighten Spell metamagic feat is especially useful with this option.
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The limited magic system from PF Unchained is an *excellent* fix for the martial-caster disparity. The disparity doesn't go away, but it does get taken down a notch.
A wizard in this system should have even more reason to realize that a wizard's forte is *not* in dealing damage, but in doing more indirect yet game-chainging things with his spells. He should inflict conditions. Enervate them. Fatigue them. Daze them. Reduce them to giggling madhouse inmates. Confuse them. Cover them with a horde of grasping monkeys. Make them cough on a cloudkill. Blind them. And so on.
It's an invitation to be creative with indirect magical effects. Illusions are great spells. Create pit is a great spell. Sure, it won't be as deep, but it's still going to be a bad hair day for the klutz who falls in.
And, oh yeah, heighten spell! And esoteric spell components.
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I'm surprised no one mentioned Knowledge Is Power yet. With some system mastery you can get your CMB to none dreadful levels (still won't recommend the multiclass though).
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I recommend against it, but if you must do it then keep it to as few levels as possible. There is little sysnergy between the two classes, so every level you devote to getting better at being a monk is another level you are not gaining higher level spells and additional spells per day. If you get enough levels of monk that you become a decent monk, you will still have wizard ability scores instead of monk ability scores and 1st-2nd level spells instead of the 3rd-5th level spells your adventure will need.
Your three good ability scores are Int, Wis, and Dex. You'd need Weapon Finesse to hit things, but since you lack a good Strength your damage will be behind a bit and since you lack a good Constitution you won't be able to take hits (which is a part of making full attacks). If you really want to make weapon attacks, then load a crossbow before combat starts. Or, keep a dagger handy. In a pinch you could provide a flanking bonus and use Aid Another to increase an ally's attack by +4.
If you are concerned about a low armor class, then stay out of the enemies' reach as often as possible. If thats impossible, you have spells that will help. Running out of spells? Your job is not to cast spells every round. It is to cast the right spell at the right time. Spend more time watching and anticipating, and less time reacting. When you do not have a good opportunity to use a spell, then use a cantrip or school ability. Thats what they are there for. Alternately, you can use Aid Another or delay your action to wait for a good opportunity.
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. . . Also, remember that the Heighten Spell metamagic feat is especially useful with this option.
Yes. Yes it is. With this system Heighten becomes indispensable.
And did the GM ". . . altering other rules to account for a landscape with lower average DCs. For instance, . . . increases to spell DCs from Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus could go up to 2."?
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The limited magic system from PF Unchained is an *excellent* fix for the martial-caster disparity. The disparity doesn't go away, but it does get taken down a notch.
A wizard in this system should have even more reason to realize that a wizard's forte is *not* in dealing damage, but in doing more indirect yet game-chainging things with his spells. He should inflict conditions. Enervate them. Fatigue them. Daze them. Reduce them to giggling madhouse inmates. Confuse them. Cover them with a horde of grasping monkeys. Make them cough on a cloudkill. Blind them. And so on.
It's an invitation to be creative with indirect magical effects. Illusions are great spells. Create pit is a great spell. Sure, it won't be as deep, but it's still going to be a bad hair day for the klutz who falls in.
And, oh yeah, heighten spell! And esoteric spell components.
My issue with this argument is: the wizard's forte never was doing damage in the first place. It always was inflicting conditions and controlling the battlefield. HP damage is best done by people who can do it all day. Moreover, by limiting DCs and CLs in this way, it actually makes it HARDER to be more "wizard-ly." You can't land any of those abilities without ways to increase DC and they tend to not matter with limited CL. The advice given is a good way to deal with this set of circumstances, to some degree. But with your first level spells being permanently at DC 11 without having to burn feats or higher spell slots to up the DC, you'll find that none of your effects will ever land. Base Will save of CR 1 monsters tends to end up in the -1 area. A normally built wizard will have better-than-even odds of doing something "wizard-ly." This system makes it a coin flip. It isn't fixing the problem, it's taking away the end-game with nothing to compensate. Remember: casting is an investment in this system. You start weak, and end strong. If you take away the "end strong" part, there's not much point in making a character that's doomed on creation.
Back on the topic: again, respec to a class that can thrive in the ruleset provided. Instead of going full wizard, take a single level to activate and create magical items (that would be no worse than your own spells, anyway). Take a few more if you have the need to make other consumables, such as wands or potions, but never beyond this. There's just too much investment necessary to function against the base stats provided for Bestiary foes.
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For the record, in this system the DCs would be as follows:
1st - DC 11
2nd - DC 13
3rd - DC 14
4th - DC 16
5th - DC 17
6th - DC 19
7th - DC 20
8th - DC 22
9th - DC 23
These are the absolute minimums for each spell level. To make this resemble something that can actually hit monster saves, Spell Focus and G. Spell focus would need to grant +2 and +4 respectively. Heighten is kinda off the table, since higher spell levels grant better base EFFECTS, anyway. Yeah, it ups the DC, but it's still no higher than it would be in the table above for a weaker kind of effect. Even with these bug fixes, it's still probably better to just play a martial that can activate magic items.