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It is in one of his 3rd party books, Kineticists of Porphyra 1,2 or 3 I can't remember which.
Mark really hasn't evaluated any 3pp stuff as far as I know. In this case I found that it simply puts the kineticist more in line for what they can do because the gap created really hurts. For example it would let a Pyro get a 10' rad AoE at level 5 but its only doing 3d6+4 rather than 5d6 in a 20' like a wizard could do assuming no spell spec or others to boost CL to like 8d6 or something.
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If your GM is ok with 3rd party N.jolly put out a feat called Kinetic Prodigy, i think. Give a tiny damage boost and lets you count as one level higher for your infusions. If taken at 5th this will let you get a 3rd level infusion then.That sounds fantastic! Maybe a bit too much so, if it makes abilities available earlier than normal...
My DM is fine with 3rd party as long as it doesn't elevate one character above the rest of the party. I think that's not the case here, but I'd understand if he were suspicious. Did Mark Seifter approve it at some point...? That would certainly help!
Where can I find that feat?
EDIT: Found it.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2su6f&page=16?Mastering-the-Elements-N-Joll ys-guide-to-the#766
Is that the only place, or has it been picked up in a book somewhere...?
It's actually in Kineticists of Porphyra I, the original. And I can't say Mark's given the thumbs up to any of my work, but I can say that KOP 1 has 14 different reviews on Paizo, with three being 4 stars, and 11 being 5 stars, including EZG's, probably the most prominent 3rd party reviewer in the industry. It's also written by someone who's actually put out as many elements than Paizo (sound, time, light, poison, viscera, machine, mind) by myself, all being in books who have yet to receive anything lower than 4 stars.
I understand why you'd want to have the seal of approval of the creator of the class, but barring that, I'd say having the seal of approval of what could be the most talented 3p writer when it comes to the class might be worth something.
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Well, I haven't heard a definite «no» yet, but my DM's raised serious concerns about making a limitless Lightning Bolt of almost as much power as a Wizard's available at the same level where the Wizard gets 1–2 shots per day. I do tend to agree that breaking the level progression is an extreme intrusion into the balance of the class and should be treated with caution, so I assume Kinetic Prodigy is off the table.
I'm also tempted by some other content in Kineticists of Porphyra, in particular the Elemental Scion, but it seems like a substantial power boost with no drawbacks compared to a same-element core Kineticist, and unlike the optimization community, both I and my DM consider the core Kineticist a strong class already (though neither of us have played one). I feel like most of the displeasure we have about that infusion gap during level 3–9 is due to some expectations raised by a cursory reading of the class being frustrated by some of the less obvious rules, not due to a general unfairness of the class design itself. To be fair, getting an at-will AoE at levels 7th or 9th is pretty damn sweet for a martially-oriented blaster class already, and I'd argue the Kineticist is one of those.
However, I'm now trying to get the Elemental Scion archetype approved, since it would eat up an infusion slot (of which I had too many) and would nicely mesh with my plans of a single-element Kineticist. In particular, it would allow me to have both physical and energy options from the start, which would allay my fears about being utterly useless against some enemies. Fingers crossed!
In any case, I've decided to go with a Halfling Electric/Air Kineticist now, and I'm looking forward to the game. :)
Thanks for all the great feedback and suggestions! It's been fun. :o)
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since it would eat up an infusion slot (of which I had too many)
If that doesn't work out, maybe you could get your GM to approve replacing one of those useless infusion slots by an utility talent of the same level (that's what I did in your situation). Going air, there is not shortage of very good low-level utility talents.
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Elemental Scion got rejected due to its extreme, sacrifice-less power boost starting at lvl 7th.
I've asked whether I could just take the first-level replacement of the archetype, though. It'll be a net loss after 7th, but worth it to have physical and energy available from the start.
since it would eat up an infusion slot (of which I had too many)If that doesn't work out, maybe you could get your GM to approve replacing one of those useless infusion slots by an utility talent of the same level (that's what I did in your situation). Going air, there is not shortage of very good low-level utility talents.
Yes, I've already made that suggestion to my DM earlier, especially since Air's Reach affects blasts. Haven't heard a no there, either. My third proposal was to allow a homebrew low-level substance infusion that would be worth taking.
Here's hoping one of the three will be accepted! :)
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Alright, so my proposals to house-rule the infusion gap were rejected except for the last one, in which I proposed a manifestly weak (but at least consistenly useful) infusion for the electric blast: Dazzling Infusion, 1 Burn, dazzles foes for one round, Fort negates. I'm considering going with that one at 3rd or 5th, although the benefit is almost imperceptibly slight. At least it gives me something to do with my Gather Power before I get Torrent and Magnetic Infusion. However, I'm also considering just taking Thundering Infusion and hoping it will come in handy once or twice in my career. Maybe I'll be able to deafen a spellcaster use the thunder to send a signal or something...
Then again, I also find myself tempted to switch from Electric/Air to Aether/Electric. I can see how invisibility at will could be a greater boon in a dungeon-heavy campaign than flight, and I like the visuals of Telekinetic Blast. I wouldn't have a touch attack until 7th and severely delayed AoE capability, but at least I could use Bowling Infusion at 5th, which seems really useful...
Eh, I'll probably stick to Air, but it's tempting.
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So it turns out we'll only have one true frontliner plus one Cleric who delusionally thinks he can fight. I'm now contemplating a melee-heavy build to flesh out the front line. I could imagine going Electric/Earth or Earth/Electric or Earth/Fire... I've always loved the Earth element, and I'd get to have a pet rock (with Elemental Whispers...). Though I guess the Electric/Air build I had already settled on could still work, since even a ranged-build Kineticist should be decent in melee after level 3.
(Yeah, I know Earth/Electric doesn't get a composite as written. I already cleared that with my DM; he'd allow a «conductor blast» composite.)
I've heard Earth touted as the king of melee Kineticists, but doesn't the physical blast hurt when you're trying to land iteratives, which are the whole point of going melee...? Is a typical Kineticist robust enough to endure melee if she only gets Earth as a second element?
If you go earth first, by the time you actually have iterative attacks to make, you'll have your second element and can choose to attack touch AC or regular AC depending on whether AC or SR is the biggest concern with what you're facing. I'd rather go earth first just because you can get the good defense for free, thus saving you a utility talent (since you're going to want DR).
As the aforementioned author, I recommend checking with your GM before trying that combination. Among other things, they may conclude (as I did) that Mighty Strike does not override the "no Vital Strike" part of kinetic blast.
Of course, if they'll let you get away with it, enjoy your intense destructive prowess. ^_^
Whereas from my point of view, the "no Vital Strike" part of kinetic blast is the specific, trumping Mighty Strike's general "use Vital Strike with certain actions". I might feel differently if Kinetic Blade were, explicitly, "make a melee blast as a standard action". Instead, it's "make melee blasts in various ways".
In any case, it's starting to derail things here. In Catharsis's case, since this is for a specific campaign, I recommend checking with the GM before making any plans. ^_^
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The Kinetic Knight doesn't really tempt me; I'd rather keep ranged and AoE capability.
Vital Strike shenanigans are certainly off the table. The Kineticist is already a powerful class by our table's standards.
I'm wondering whether I can afford taking Finesse / Blade at 1st and delay Precise Shot to 5th level. Blade is presumably awkward to use until 5th, but it probably beats taking –4 from into-melee and –4 from cover all the time... then again, the Electric build would have PBS and a ranged touch to help with the penalties, and Precise Shot at 3rd.
Hmmm... maybe I should just stick to the Aero and see what happens to a party with only one dedicated frontliner...
Not really a fan of taking blade until I need it as a prereq for Whip. If you can't take a 5-foot step, you can always just take the attack of opportunity.
Not really a fan of taking blade until I need it as a prereq for Whip. If you can't take a 5-foot step, you can always just take the attack of opportunity.
What do you mean? You don't take an attack of opportunity from using kinetic blade or kinetic whip.
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Not really a fan of taking blade until I need it as a prereq for Whip. If you can't take a 5-foot step, you can always just take the attack of opportunity.What do you mean? You don't take an attack of opportunity from using kinetic blade or kinetic whip.
I believe he was talking about being stuck in melee without Kinetic Blade. Sounds like I'd much prefer having Blade, though.
There aren't really that many low level infusions that I desperately want to take that I can't regularly fit in KBlade at level 1 or 3. The useful level 1 infusions are mostly limited to pushing, burning, extended range, and kinetic blade. I guess *maybe* telekinetic boomerang if your GM is a stickler about ammo for a TK blast?
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There aren't really that many low level infusions that I desperately want to take that I can't regularly fit in KBlade at level 1 or 3. The useful level 1 infusions are mostly limited to pushing, burning, extended range, and kinetic blade.
Is pushing even useful...?
Yeah, it's maddening how there's not enough worthwhile low-level infusions to pick in the first 5th levels, and not enough infusion slots to pick all the infusions you want after that.
So I'm currently torn between these three concepts. I like them all and have a really hard time deciding:
Halfling Aero/Aero
1 Point-Blank Shot Extended Range Basic Aero Electric Blast
2 Elemental Whispers Enveloping Winds
3 Precise Shot Dazzling Infusion
4 Air's Reach
5 Weapon Finesse Kinetic Blade
6 Wings of Air; replace Air's Reach with Air Cushion
7 Iron Will Torrent Thunderstorm Blast
8 Air's Reach
9 Weapon Focus: Kinetic Blast Magnetic Infusion
10 Greater Elemental Whispers
11 Extra Wild Talent Chain; Kinetic Whip (B)
12 Ride the Blast
Halfling Geo/Pyro
1 Weapon Finesse Kinetic Blade Basic Geo Earth Blast
2 Elemental Whispers Flesh of Stone
3 Point-Blank Shot Extended Range
4 Kinetic Cover
5 Precise Shot Entangling Infusion
6 Earth Climb
7 Extra Wild Talent Fan of Flames (B) Fire Blast
8 Shift Earth; replace Kinetic Cover with Fire's Fury
9 Extra Wild Talent Eruption, Blade Rush (B), replace Fan of Flames with Burning Infusion
10 Earth Glide
11 Extra Wild Talent Blade Whirlwind, Kinetic Whip (B)
12 Ride the Blast
Halfling Geo/Aero
1 Weapon Finesse Kinetic Blade Basic Geo
2 Elemental Whispers
3 Point-Blank Shot Extended Range
4 Kinetic Cover
5 Precise Shot Entangling Infusion
6 Earth Climb
7 Iron Will
8 Air's Reach
9 Extra Wild Talent Torrent, Blade Rush (B)
10 Wings of Air, replace Earth Climb with Air Cushion
11 Extra Wild Talent Blade Whirlwind, Impale (B)
12 Ride the Blast
The Aero/Aero would have the advantage of flight at 6th (yay!) and an energy blast from the start, which could help the party against physically resistant enemies (then again, it sounds like we'll have an Alchemist). I'd also get a good AoE with Torrent at 7th, which should be easier to use than other 30' AoEs thanks to Air's Reach. The utility shuffle around levels 4–8 is a bit annoying, but I just don't have enough slots for everything. Dazzling Infusion is a house-ruled option (electric, dazzles for 1 round, level 1, burn 1) designed to be underpowered but widely useful, as opposed to Thundering Infusion.
The Geo builds start out with DR, melee capability, and a pet rock (Elemental Whispers). :o) The Geo/Pyro option gets an AoE at 7th and a better one at 9th, and a jetpack at 14th. The Geo/Aero has to hold out until 9th and 11th for its AoEs, but it's a 60' Torrent and an Impale (which ought to be compatible with the houseruled composite blast and benefit from Air's Reach as well), both of which sound awesome. I also get real flight at 10th level (yay!), and I suspect many Iron Gods enemies might be sensitive to electric damage, so that would sound like a superior option to Geo/Pyro overall. The downside is that it relies on houseruling.
After writing all of that down, though, I feel I'm tending toward the Geo/Aero. Let's see about that houserule...
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The Geo/Aero build is going to be very versatile - especially with a "Charged Rock" composite. However, I don't think that impale would stack with air's reach; the talent specifically says it only effects range, not area of effect.
A line does not have an area, only a range. :D
Actually, Mark Seifter has personally touted the fact that Air's Reach extends Torrent as one of Air's tactical advantages:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r7kg&page=83?Ask-Mark-Seifter-All-Your-Que stions-Here#4109
So I figure the same should go for Impale.
Do you like Kinetic Cover? I'm sure it has its uses, but consider moving Earth Climb to 4 so you can take Tremorsense at 6. (I like tremorsense a lot because I really hate when invisible enemies make me miss.)
Tremorsense requires standing on earth, and I'm worried that Iron Gods will be lots and lots of metal dungeons (AKA spaceships), so that would fall flat. It also reads as awkward to use. Kinetic Cover gets a lot of bad reviews, but I picture it as pretty useful and versatile. But I should normally have better things to do with my standard actions than to build cover, I agree. I'll think about it.
Blade/Whip Whirlwind Whirlwind is really cool, but I'm not certain how useful it will be. I guess it depends on how often you get swarmed and if you can fit Kinetic Form in there somewhere.
Even just with two adjacent enemies, it should be pretty damn effective. Since it's only a standard action, you can use Supercharge and Composite with it, for example. Powerful stuff, if you ask me.
Similarly, Blade Rush is essentially pounce for Kineticists after 8th level, since you can empower it and still move.
[Edit] Now that I'm thinking about it, the one downside of the Geo/Aero is that it has so many cool abilities that its hard to focus.
That's true about all Kineticists! :)
Focusing on mobility:
Use the 10th level wild talent to take Earth Glide and the 11th level extra wild talent feat to take Air's Wings. Pick up air shroud somewhere too - you can fly at will and stay underground as long as you want. Probably loses Blade Rush and Whirlwind.
Again, Earth Glide probably doesn't work in metal dungeons, and I definitely want to have good melee capability. It's one of the main reasons I changed builds from the Aero/Aero.
Focusing on Melee:
Kinetic Form + Blade Whirlwind to attack everything with reach? Eh, it negates the accuracy bonus from being a halfling and costs burn at the beginning of the day. Also where would Kinetic Form fit?
I suppose I could add Kinetic Form into the mix somewhere, but the halfling accuracy and AC is also nice to have in melee. Then again, walking around like a giant stone pile sounds like fun. ;o)
Is pushing even useful...?
There's no save, you prefer to be at range (at least sometimes) and it only costs 1 burn. So I throw it on a lot of blasts. Rarely you can knock someone into something dangerous, and that's fun.
Like once you have infusion specialization at level 5 you can make a pushing kinetic blade, and then 5' step away so the (5' reach) person you hit will have to take a move action to get into you, preventing them from full attacking. So it's usually one I take "because I'll use it" but I might be rethinking that after Psychic Anthology since there are some new level 1 infusions (telekinetic boomerang is interesting, what with the "if you miss" clause).
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Huh, I've never thought about that. With Kinetic Whip, you could even have Pushing on your AoOs so an enemy without reach would be prevented from closing with you... :) Something to think about. Though I'm not sure one's co-combattants would appreciate it if the flanking got broken all the time.
As for «there's no save», well, it does require a CMB check, which is supposedly not all that easy to make with a partial BAB. Might as well use Bowling Infusion, then. (I should probably try to pick that up at some point as well...)
Probably my favorite use of pushing infusion is (this requires GM approval) to put it on a wall, to make that wall really hard to run though. The infusion says
You can’t use this infusion with a form infusion such as cloud that causes your kinetic blast to lack a clear direction to push.
But you could argue that "perpendicular to the facing surface of the wall" is a clear distinction of "which way the infusion pushes" to justify it.
The wall infusion is already 3 burn, so you'll be able to put a 1 burn substance infusion on it well before you can make a bowling or grappling wall.
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Really wondering what the CMB would be on a Kinetic Whip with Pushing Infusion on an Halfling with BAB+6 and Con 18. +9 ?
What about Weapon Focus ? Elemental OVerflow ? Weapon Finesse ?
I doubt you can use Weapon Finesse, since you already have your Con bonus taking the place of the Str bonus. But when you use a weapon to do combat maneuvers, you can apply the weapon-specific bonuses to the CMB check, so I'd expect Weapon Focus and Overflow to work here as well.
Also, I don't suppose the Halfling's size bonus would apply? After all, the size of the Kineticist has no effect on the blast whatsoever. Anyway, even a 50% chance of pushing someone into a Wall blast is probably worth 1 point of Infusion Specialization at the levels where you have Wall.
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Regarding Impale... be careful, you are treading a fine line. Your GM is giving you a Composite that doesn't exist, and you've promptly used that favor to double the area of effect of the only full damage AOE that targets AC instead of reflex. Its not broken, but its a massive buff to an already very strong AOE. Your GM would be well within their rights to just go "Nope, Charged Earth can't do Impale" (they are the ones giving it to you, after all).
I was sort of thinking something similar as well. Technically charged earth isn't an associated blast for any infusions, so the GM can pick and choose which to allow as associated (EDIT: incidentally, Small is only a -1 to CMB, not -4; might as well mention while I'm responding to that post).
However, the main reason I came here was because I just saw something in an unreleased product that as soon as I read it reminded me of that level 2 mini-AoE form infusion you proposed earlier, Catharsis, so look forward to seeing that in print! (eventually) ;)
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I was sort of thinking something similar as well. Technically charged earth isn't an associated blast for any infusions, so the GM can pick and choose which to allow as associated
Gotcha. I'll bring this up with my DM. I figure we could either bar Conductor Blast from Impale or restrict its Impale range to 30', since the physical spike is the limiting factor.
(EDIT: incidentally, Small is only a -1 to CMB, not -4; might as well mention while I'm responding to that post).
While you're here: Is it true that Weapon Focus, Overflow etc add to the CMB of blasts?
However, the main reason I came here was because I just saw something in an unreleased product that as soon as I read it reminded me of that level 2 mini-AoE form infusion you proposed earlier, Catharsis, so look forward to seeing that in print! (eventually) ;)
Awesome! :D Thanks for the heads-up! I hope it's going to be published early enough to still be relevant for my current character. Maybe it could appear in a teaser post on the blog? ;o)
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Overflow et al should definitely add to the blast's CMB when you're making the attack, imo, since CMB typically adds anything that adds to attack rolls. At least mathing it up, I was banking on it adding. Grabbing is the only one that's different because it's more like black tentacles where the blast has its own CMB (and is never part of an infusion that involved an attack roll, just the ones that sit there in place for a while), and that's why it has a separate and prescriptive formula of how to calculate its CMB rather than just saying "as normal, but with Con instead of Str," and that's why it gets your full level in there and a usually-better size bonus, since it won't have overflow on its side.
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Awesome! :D Thanks for the heads-up! I hope it's going to be published early enough to still be relevant for my current character. Maybe it could appear in a teaser post on the blog? ;o)
Barring that, could you perhaps drop us a hint whether the mini-AoE I proposed is of lower, equivalent, or higher power level than the one you're publishing? Or in which way it is different? Depending on that, perhaps my DM might be willing to allow my proposal provisionally until your version is published.
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Awesome! :D Thanks for the heads-up! I hope it's going to be published early enough to still be relevant for my current character. Maybe it could appear in a teaser post on the blog? ;o)Barring that, could you perhaps drop us a hint whether the mini-AoE I proposed is of lower, equivalent, or higher power level than the one you're publishing? Or in which way it is different? Depending on that, perhaps my DM might be willing to allow my proposal provisionally until your version is published.
It's not in front of me any more, but if I recall it was a slightly different area that would occasionally help you avoid hitting your allies compared to the one you posted in this thread but also rarely not hit as many foes (when foes are lined up perfectly in a 2x2 formation or something similar). Very similar otherwise, which made me think of this thread, despite freelancers writing before this thread, so nice convergent design. That was last week so I may have forgotten something important.
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Well, I've had my first session with my geokineticist Iohandri: So far, so good. We haven't seen much of a dire threat yet, but I sure am glad I took Finesse and Kinetic Blade at 1st level. Combat maps have been tight and cramped so far. Even with those options, there were times where I lost a round of attacks because I would have taken a –8 on a ranged attack and needed to move to get into melee (which I can't combine with Kinetic Blade until 5th unless I Burn). That's an important aspect of melee Kineticists that I wasn't aware of — you can't do all the things regular meleeist can, especially in terms of mobility.
The rest of our party consist of what appears to be a Bladebound Magus, a clerical character who's deliberately incompetent at armed combat (I'm guessing Evangelist), and a bomb-throwing Alchemist. Sounds pretty balanced to me. I'm hoping the lack of a full-BAB class won't hurt us, but I'll have an energy blast at 7th, and I'm sure the Magus will have enough accuracy-boosting tricks of his own. At least we don't have a lack of spellcasters...
Looking forward to seeing this evolve!
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We just finished the first book of Iron Gods (it was inordinately difficult to find dates for this particular table), and overall I'm very pleased with how the geokineticist handles. I almost feel bad for how much damage I'm doing at 3rd level already (granted, the party is not very optimized, but still).
On the other hand, not having Precise Shot remains painful, and I have to go into melee with Kinetic Blade more often than not. While I can handle an average melee opponent, I did get grappled in the final showdown, which completely locked me down for the remainder of the fight. I'll have to get a ring of Freedom of Movement at some point (far, far down the line), and maybe a Slick armor in the near future. Getting a Fly speed and ranged competence should also help not getting grappled in the first place.
I'm starting to think that going with an energy blast first and eating the -4 penalty at range until 3rd would have been a more comfortable choice. But it's definitely been fun so far.
I'm starting to think that going with an energy blast first and eating the -4 penalty at range until 3rd would have been a more comfortable choice. But it's definitely been fun so far.
I did try to warn you. An energy blast would also reduce your feelings of dealing "so much damage". Don't worry about it too much. Everything will even out around 7th level either way.
You might try to pick up an Unfettered Shirt for a once per day freedom of movement until you can afford the ring. Personally, I'd just max out escape artist and buy items to enhance the skill. Remaining out of Melee range is usually the best option.
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I'm not sure whether I would have fared better with a purely ranged energy blast overall, though. Things did get cramped a few times, and I was glad to have the option of melee. Our party is also a bit light on heavy hitters, or frontliners, for that matter.
But I should really start treating myself as a squishy, at least in the face of grappling opponents. Good idea with the shirt. I have been considering Escape Artist, but given how insurmountable the CMDs or grappling monsters typically are, I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
Now, if Kinetic Blade turns out to work under grapple, that would allow for a very different strategy...
I'm not sure whether I would have fared better with a purely ranged energy blast overall, though. Things did get cramped a few times, and I was glad to have the option of melee. Our party is also a bit light on heavy hitters, or frontliners, for that matter.
As I mentioned at the start, I am a GM for an Iron Gods game (we are about half way through the 5th book as of this moment). The part composition is: Slayer (switch-hitter), Druid (wildshape/summon focus), Kineticist (earth/metal), and Arcanist.
The Slayer is really the only one able to go toe-to-toe with anything, though the druid/kineticist can dance for a bit before they need to back up. They rarely, and only for a few moments in battle, ever resort to melee attacks. It started shortly after the middle of the second book, where they really cemented their tactics.
My advice is don't worry about front lining too much. If you have one good front liner and the ability to summon a monster or two (you mentioned a cleric?) as a distraction, you can pummel the monsters with your ranged abilities. YOU are the heavy hitter.
But I should really start treating myself as a squishy, at least in the face of grappling opponents. Good idea with the shirt. I have been considering Escape Artist, but given how insurmountable the CMDs or grappling monsters typically are, I'm not sure it's worth the effort.
Yes, you should treat yourself as squishy, since most of your class abilities rely on draining your own health (even if non-lethal). Avoid grapple if you can, since it effectively shuts down your kinetic blasts (like it does spellcasting). You can still pull it off, if you pump your concentration checks.
Now, if Kinetic Blade turns out to work under grapple, that would allow for a very different strategy...
Hmm ... I don't see why Kinetic Blade wouldn't work in a grapple. It isn't an action to use it and you do get to make attack rolls in a grapple if you choose not to control it/break free. You just make your attack and activate the ability during the attack. Like a quickened spell, I suppose. Too quick for anyone to do anything about it.
A lesser talisman or two of freedom is a much cheaper, albeit expendable means of staying ungrappled. Doesn't cost an action to use either.
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Sounds interesting, but where do you see that particular talisman? It's not listed here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/talis man-lesser/
DeathlessOne: Yeah, I expect to rely on ranged more once I get Precise Shot at 5th. It's a painfully long wait. At least I should hit 4th now after last session.
As for KB while grappling: It's still a SLA, and KB doesn't say this particular restriction on SLAs is waived. Would make sense to me, though.
Sounds interesting, but where do you see that particular talisman? It's not listed here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/r-z/talis man-lesser/
It's from Occult Adventures, Nethys has it.