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I want to get a few opinions before I start one of these.
A) I've heard a few people express the opinion that this is a fairly d-bag thing to do for one of 2 reasons.
A1) Could be young-ish kids at the table or paladin/priest of Pharasma (or other undead hating deity) characters in the group.
A2) Slows things down horribly while the necromancer tries to figure out what the stats are of his bloody skeleton manticore and what it is going to do.
My response would be:
1) If there are kids at the table (who aren't obviously into and able to handle it), I just won't animate. I will be a buffing caster. If there are anti-undead charcters at the table, I won't animate. (Though I will probably role play hassling them about making harmless use of the available materials.)
2) I would mostly use this character for PbP where I will have all the time I need for my minion without slowing anything down for anybody. Plus (if playing F2F) I have Hero Lab, and should be able to very rapidly generate a bloody skeleton manticore (or whatever) with little effort or time involved.
Given the above, would you (as player or GM) have a problem with an animating necromancer at your table?
B) Every animating necromancer I've seen in PFS has been a wizard (which doesn't get animate dead until 4th level spells). However, nearly every build discussion has them as clerics which get animate dead earlier and can repair their minions with channel negative energy. Anyone know why this is?
The only thing I could think of is that animate lesser undead may not be such a hardship since PFS doesn't let you keep your minions from one scenario to the next. So that fact that it can't have any templates and you can't repair it is not such a burden.
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I think they're all wizards because a Wizard built for necromancy doesn't have to dedicate sacred cow class features like spontaneous cure spells or channeling into their focus. Most players are used to clerics that just have healing even if they're built for combat stuff. A wizard who can't animate dead can fall back on crazy debuff spells and nobody views it as a detriment because wizards don't have healing as their secondary role.
Also, undead get stupid expensive in Pathfinder because of how terrible pathfinders are at animating them, so getting animate dead later isn't that big of a deal, as the character will have more money to throw at them then.
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Typically, GMs insist that players provide the stats and models for their summons. They are free to disallow summons (or animated undead) if the player isn't prepared and doesn't have their stats ready. It's just a common decency in game time issue.
As for necromancy interacting with anti-necromancy, there is much dispute there. I've heard it argued that destroying other people's summons, companions, familiars, and so forth, doesn't qualify as PVP. I don't really like this logic, but I've heard it more than once from others. Certainly doesn't subscribe to the "Cooperate" aspect of PFS.
I think the bottom line issue is that, if the necromancy is helpful to the party, it should be allowed. If the character is just creating undead to annoy the characters that despise undead, then it really should be frowned upon, or possibly disallowed.
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The biggest complaint I've had is that it's *very* easy to absolutely dominate a combat-heavy scenario.
I, Cazador, can animate a small army for a few hundred gold. Every battle just feeds my potential. When I've got 16 skeletons active, nothing lasts long in my path.
Well, I can't think I'd want to do too many armies too often. A bunch of low level animated minions aren't going to be any better than a bunch of low level summons. Maybe even worse. So I'd probably only being doing 1 of the highest level I can manage. Then another when it is destroyed. Plus repeated armies of easily destroyed fodder would get expensive very quickly.
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The only thing I could think of is that animate lesser undead may not be such a hardship since PFS doesn't let you keep your minions from one scenario to the next. So that fact that it can't have any templates and you can't repair it is not such a burden.
This is correct, so not only can you not carry over the minions, but the corpses must be acquired in each scenario. And you can't play an evil alignment in PFS, so don't expect the GM to allow you to murder random NPCs to gain corpses - you'll have to find dead bodies within the written scenario or animate slain enemies from the written encounters.
Yeah, animating dead is kinda tricky in PFS.
If the goal is just undead summons, there is a PFS legal Feat, called "Skeleton Summoner" from the advanced player's guide, which allows you to use summon monster to gain various undead. Unlike animated dead, this actually summons them and the spell is considered non-evil, so while it may irritate pharasma followers, it doesn't create quite the same tension (since it's no different morally than summoning a creature with a fiendish template). The creatures it summons are pretty mediocre, but I think it's much more PFS friendly.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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Another questions just came up. Does lesser animate dead still require the onyx? I'm getting differing opinions on that.
Animate dead, lesser says it is as animate dead and the only noted changes are the spell level and target. So yes, it still has all the same components as animate dead.
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Looks like the forum ate my earlier post, so writing it again.
I just wanted to answer the original poster about whether playing this type of PC is a "d-bag thing to do".
For someone who doesn't consider the possible pitfalls and prepare for them, yes, it can be. For someone with the awareness to start a thread like this and come up with contingency plans to deal with those potential problems, it isn't. Thus, for YOU, it's not a d-bag thing to do.
Keep in mind that animated undead don't carry over from scenario to scenario.
Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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My son played a PFS necromancer for a while, by the use of an Oracle of Bones. This gave him a longer-term 'companion' skeleton, plus the capability to summon more, without needing corpses. He used Skeleton Summoner and, I believe, Control Undead, but never once faced enemy undead.
However, there were at least two other regular players who were just plain jerks about it, always destroying the 'evil undead', and in-character hassling every time he created undead. Be aware this may well happen.
My son played a PFS necromancer for a while, by the use of an Oracle of Bones. This gave him a longer-term 'companion' skeleton, plus the capability to summon more, without needing corpses. He used Skeleton Summoner and, I believe, Control Undead, but never once faced enemy undead.
However, there were at least two other regular players who were just plain jerks about it, always destroying the 'evil undead', and in-character hassling every time he created undead. Be aware this may well happen.
I'm pretty sure those kind of actions violate PFS's anti-PVP rule.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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I play a Necroccultist, and my fellow players have been pretty permissive of me, I've even had two Paladins be okay with me. Part of it was that they allowed me to do my thing (mainly, have a combat pet/skeleton I could buff), part of it was that I roleplayed him in such a way that I didn't come across as evil. To be fair, the Necroccultist is badly written, but I played him off as an "undead walking service" who lets restless spirits play outside for a bit so they don't go haunt other people. Their flavour also say that they learn from the dead, rather than from outsiders, so it's more of a two-way interaction and not a "I dominate your soul" kind of thing.
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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I'm pretty sure those kind of actions violate PFS's anti-PVP rule.
Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
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This topic pops up on a regular basis and there really is no rule governing how to address it. Generally speaking Pathfinder is intended to be a cooperative game and makes some assumptions that the characters will mesh together as a group working together towards some goal be it loot or squashing evil or over-throwing the tyrant, whatever. However, in organized play where the campaign is much more episodic, the players sitting at the table did not create their characters to fit in with the other players at that table. So, inevitably you are going to have characters that have opposing goals, morals, etc. In these cases, it is the players, not the characters that have to figure out a way to get along and set aside some level of the character's comfort level and role-playing schtick for the sake of the game.
Playing a necrovoking death priest is no more right/wrong than playing an undead hating, demon-slaying zealous paladin. They are both extreme builds in a role-playing sense and will often be at odds with other characters about something or other. It might be in character for the paladin to destroy all the animated undead the necromancer activates or it might be in character for the necromancer to enervate the prisoner to extract information, but both actions step on another character's emotions.
"That's just what my character would do" is never an excuse for poor behavior at the table. The players need to get along and let each other do what they are built for, without ruining the others' experience. Otherwise select different characters or walk from the table. Its really that simple. I've never encountered a situation as described by the OP that could not be resolved by the players and a little cooperation.
Fundamentally, this can really be prevented at the point of character creation. Remember, you are creating a character that has to fit into the Pathfinder Society in-game organization which requires you to swear an oath to explore, report, and above all, cooperate. If your actions, attitude, etc are such that your character will either be at odds with those tenets or will force another character to do the same, your character concept is probably not suitable for PFS. Save it for a home-game where the players and the GM have the freedom to go off-script and impose in-game consequences for your and your fellow players' actions.
It's strange to me that parents are okay with their children participating in a game with violence up to and including killing sentient creatures, as well as other "major" crimes like theft, breaking and entering, kidnapping, slavery, etc not to mention some of the unusual aspects of the in-game religions/faiths but freak out if there is the mere mention of sex, even in context, or things like animating undead.
I know *you* are going to try and explain it to me, but that's been tried time and time again and I still don't get it, so good luck
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I play paladins and other lawful good types in PFS, not to mention an inquisitor of Pharasma* and I would never have a problem with someone animating the dead at those tables with me.
I might make some in character comments about not liking it, and working with them only reluctantly because of my oath to "explore, report, cooperate", while promising to destroy the unholy things as soon as the mission's over. But out of character, I'd just be having fun pretending that my PC was butting heads with the other person's PC, and I'm sure we'd joke about it and have a fun game. If I did actually destroy their undead servant, I'd be violating the "Don't be a jerk" rule by not letting them play their PC as it's intended, and that's not something I'd do.
I'm pretty sure those kind of actions violate PFS's anti-PVP rule.Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.
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Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.
Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
Don't swerve this into a Paladin fall thread! My liver can't take it!
Don't swerve this into a Paladin fall thread! My liver can't take it!Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.
Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
No it's not a Paladin fall thread. It may very well be a Player fall thread though. Or perhaps a Judge fall thread for not moderating their table properly.
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I do not get why people are knowingly being jerks to other players and the GMs do not put a kabash to it.
Personally if i had a undead hating character and played with an undead loving character. That would be awesome. This is a perfect opposite to yoru character to exemplify what your character is(in literature they call this a foil) to expand the roleplay of your character. You can show how your character stands on the subject by being next to this other guy. But it does not mean you make that players game worse off.
It is inevitable a that two pathfinder agents would be put together that disagree. So this WILL happen to your character as well. The idea is to roleplay this out in an entertaining way for both of you.
When I have strongly opinionated I never enforce my will on others but I always voice their opinions. Then I say out of character, this is what my character believes and tell the other players go ahead and ignore him if you want. You can agree to disagree in a make belief game.
If you know you are building a character that you are unable to roleplay in a cooperative manor then as Mr. Jonquet stated please do not bring it to a PFS table. If you really wanna play it in PFS learn how to make your character cooperative to the polar opposites.
I have a character that steals everything he can. I would tell the law officer PC that I use bluff to try to trick him into allowing me to steal.
I have a PC that refuses to kill living things. Over half a dozen times other PCs coupe de graz. The bad guys i tie up and heal before i can even question them. Yes it is a jerk move on their part, but I just cry in character and then complain about them being murders.
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I have played a Cleric of Urgathoa in PFS all the way to lvl 12, who also had a tendency of raising a frontline if needed. In my lodge there usually wasn't much against it, except for the few paladins and pharasmans around. At the beginning of each session, I asked if there was someone against it, and if at least 1 person stated that they wouldn't like me doing that, I just stated: "alright, then I won't". It was mostly a support/status inducing build anyway, but the opportunity to create more targets on the field was always nice. It helps if you state that you will not raise any humanoids out of moral concerns (that it is mechanically among the weakest options for animate dead doesn't matter). And sometimes you find people who oppose your necromancy, but allow it for the mission since we need to coöperate (the promise that they can destroy the "tool" afterwards is usually enough). The local Paladin with the Oath of Vengeance considered the Cleric "a lesser Evil", and allowed it to do its thing (for now...).
What does help an aspiring Necromancer, is the timing of raising the dead. While people who use summoning spells are expected to have all the stats with them at hand, for necromancers this is a bit of a problem. As already stated, in PFS the undead do not carry over to the next scenario, you are completely dependant on the critters available at that time. And no matter the prepwork, you cannot know what you will be facing today (unless you already have played it / ran it). Therefor, raising the dead during combat in a F2F game will have a lot of people rolling their eyes. I found it best to state that you wanna animate the bodies directly after combat, so you can apply the template at leisure while the rest is either looting or interrogating.
As for general advice when it comes to animate dead, it is possible to do a lot of prepwork on the possible outcome (without Hero Labs even). One just has to remember that most stats of a skeleton/zombie have fixed values based on its Hitdice, no matter the creature used. HP, Fortitude, Will, and BAB are tied to this (Zombies get bonus hitdice, take this into account). Then there are some bonuses for size (the regular size bonuses to CMB/CMD and Natural armor, Hitdice as well for Zombies). If you calculate these fixed values ahead of time and place them in a scheme, it is a serious cut in time. All you really need is the creatures Hitdice, Strength, Dexterity, size and Natural Attacks to calculate the remaining statistics. Still some work, but not as much as calculating health and BAB on the fly.
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Keep in mind that animated undead don't carry over from scenario to scenario.Nor can you create variant undead, such as bloody skeletons or plague zombies.
Much to my Dhampir Necromancer's chagrim, I might add.
Have they issued an official ruling on this anywhere, almost everything I see says you can make variant skeletons and zombies. They are listed under Skeleton and Zombie in the bestiary entry which is what Animate Dead tells you to use when animating. My necromancer has not had any of the 5 star GMs I game with complain about animating variants. If that is wrong then I want to know so I can be doing things correctly.
Also super jelly of your Dhampir Necromancer, that is my dream build for PFS.
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Keep in mind that animated undead don't carry over from scenario to scenario.Nor can you create variant undead, such as bloody skeletons or plague zombies.
Much to my Dhampir Necromancer's chagrim, I might add.
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Wait What? Are you sure. All the necromancers I've seen in PFS do that all the time.
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Venture-Agent, Australia—QLD—Brisbane
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Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.
Who said anything about Paladins? These were just regular good characters (who, by the way, have no issues burning down buildings on occasion, or slitting the throats of unconscious opponents at the end of a combat, at least until it was pointed out this was uncategorically an evil act) that find summoning or creating undead to be unspeakably evil. Also note, it hasn't happened since I became a Venture Agent.
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Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.I'm pretty sure those kind of actions violate PFS's anti-PVP rule.Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
I've had this same experience, and they cite that the PFS anti-PVP rule only applies to "Player Characters" and not their summons, companions, familiars, or raised undead. PFS devs could stand to clarify their stance on this. Definitely sounds against the idea of Cooperation in my eyes.
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There is also an oblique reference to it in the campaign clarifications document:
Page 46—The oracle of bones revelation summons a single Medium humanoid skeleton or zombie with a number of Hit Dice equal to your oracle level. This ability does not require a body. You may summon
a bloody skeleton or fast zombie at 7th level, even though these variants are not normally legal options.
If you could link the John Compton post that would be helpful. The Oracle of Bones summons a skeleton, that is not the same as casting Animate Dead (and in fact the ability does not even mention function as Animate Dead) so I do not put a lot of weight in that clarification as a ruling on something else.
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I've had this same experience, and they cite that the PFS anti-PVP rule only applies to "Player Characters" and not their summons, companions, familiars, or raised undead. PFS devs could stand to clarify their stance on this. Definitely sounds against the idea of Cooperation in my eyes.
Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.
"if thats the case" *casts animal growth on pet*
"what the hell!"
"Hey, if you're allowed to kill my pet because its not covered under the PVP rules my pet's allowed to kill you under the same logic. Have fun with your new chew toy"
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I, Cazador, can animate a small army for a few hundred gold. Every battle just feeds my potential. When I've got 16 skeletons active, nothing lasts long in my path.
PFS leadership should really update the language on this FAQ to more clearly apply in a necromantic army situation.
How many animals can I have at any given time?
During the course of a scenario, you may have one combat animal and as many noncombat animals as you like. Noncombat animals (ponies, horses, pet dogs, and so on) cannot participate in combat at all. If you have so many noncombat animals that their presence is slowing a session down, the GM has the right to ask you to select one noncombat animal and leave the rest behind. A summoner's eidolon is considered an animal companion for the purposes of counting combat and noncombat animals. If you have more than one class-granted animal companion (or eidolon), you must choose which will be considered the combat animal at the start of the scenario. In general, a mount, a familiar or mundane pet, and your class-granted animal(s) are acceptable, but more than that can be disruptive.
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I've had this same experience, and they cite that the PFS anti-PVP rule only applies to "Player Characters" and not their summons, companions, familiars, or raised undead. PFS devs could stand to clarify their stance on this. Definitely sounds against the idea of Cooperation in my eyes.Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.I'm pretty sure those kind of actions violate PFS's anti-PVP rule.Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
I can almost see their point on temporary summons or raised undead not being PVP (though it still clearly violates the "don't be a jerk" rule), but familiars and companions??? Those are permanent class features that cost gold to replace.
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I can almost see their point on temporary summons or raised undead not being PVP (though it still clearly violates the "don't be a jerk" rule), but familiars and companions??? Those are permanent class features that cost gold to replace.I've had this same experience, and they cite that the PFS anti-PVP rule only applies to "Player Characters" and not their summons, companions, familiars, or raised undead. PFS devs could stand to clarify their stance on this. Definitely sounds against the idea of Cooperation in my eyes.Doesn't matter in PFS, your characters have taken an oath to cooperate with each other. The Paladin player is still breaking the rules.I'm pretty sure those kind of actions violate PFS's anti-PVP rule.Probably, but at the time, it happened, under the guise of 'destroying the evil creatures'. I observed a similar thing happen with the same players at a 5e table, involving a Necromancer...racial prejudice, in an RPG!
The next time a Paladin wants to Smite your undead, inform them you will sunder there gear. My animated undead absolutely have a gold value attached to them, so it is no different then me destroying your gear. I have thankfully been lucky that all the GMs I play with have not allowed a undead kill happy Paladin or Cleric to try and murder my pets.
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The rules for creating variant undead, which are found in the Bestiaries only, are not allowed via Additional Resources.
Animate Dead only animates your run of the mill "Skeleton" or "Zombie".
In past discussions it was explained that if you *could* create bloody skeletons or fast zombies, there'd be nothing stopping you from creating some of the overpowered undead that were printed in later Bestiaries.
So we can only go off of what Animate Dead grants us.
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The rules for creating variant undead, which are found in the Bestiaries only, are not allowed via Additional Resources.
Animate Dead only animates your run of the mill "Skeleton" or "Zombie".
In past discussions it was explained that if you *could* create bloody skeletons or fast zombies, there'd be nothing stopping you from creating some of the overpowered undead that were printed in later Bestiaries.
So we can only go off of what Animate Dead grants us.
The first line of Animate Dead
This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies (see the Pathfnder RPG Bestiary) that obey your spoken commands.
In the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary under Skeleton (which is where the spell told me to go) are in the instructions on making a Bloody Skeleton or a Burning Skeleton. Under Zombie, are the instructions for Plague Zombie and Fast Zombie. So following the spell's instructions to the Bestiary tells me I can do it.
It very well may be that we can not, but I want to see an official ruling that says that, as the majority of everyone seems to believe that you can create either of those variants which are listed in the Bestiary per the spell.
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Well as I said before, if characters at the table have a problem with undead, I just won't animate anything. No potential interpretations of PvP. I would still be a full caster wizard or cleric. Still quite functional. No problem from my point of view.
I see it perfectly logical to assume you can only use the variants in the first Bestiary. Just like with the Summon Monster spells. If those only use the options in the Bestiary I, it seems comparable to apply the same logic to Animate Dead.
I don't think it is reasonable to say zero variants are allowed. No it is not explicitly spelled out as allowed, but virtually nothing in the Bestiary is specifically called out as allowed (including all the monsters on the Summon Monster list). Celestial Eagle isn't specifically called out and even though it is a variant of an Eagle, no one says I can't summon one of those.