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STR or DEX based?
Instead of getting Ricochet Toss, I'd grab that Blinkback Belt. But you want more strength than 13, personally; +1 more damage will help a lot early on. Try 14/16+2/12/12/14/7. Yes, this means dumping CHA, but in return you get a little more wallop with your thrown weapons.
NOTE: If you get the Blinkback Belt, that takes up the belt slot, so no +DEX belt for you (unless PFS lets you enchant items to ALSO become stat items, but I doubt that). So, there's an argument for taking Ricochet Toss anyway.
Alternatively, build STR instead of DEX and use the belt of mighty hurling (STR to attack with thrown). You still want 15 DEX, and you will DEFINITELY want Ricochet Toss so you can make a full attack with one weapon, but this lets you be a full plate wearer that gets STR-to-damage-and-attack with thrown weapons and still gets Rapid Shot (but not Imp. Precise Shot). I'd use this array: 16+2/15/12/10/14/7. That gets you the DEX you need without items, a solid +4 to damage and +2 attack at the start (which becomes +4 to both later), and... Yeah, it's good.
Note that the Arsenal Chaplain is the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain in Golarion, so your character is PROBABLY from Molthune.
Personally, the problem I have with daggers is their range. Their range is... well, it's 10 feet. That's bad.
I'd suggest Chakrams. They have 30 ft. range, and their damage is 1d8, and they're generally pretty good. You get to put your Weapon Focus bonus feat into any weapon, not just your deity's favored weapon, so this still works. It also frees up Deific Obedience to be a different feat.
Range is important since every increment you are below the necessary amount = a -2 attack penalty. Again, that's why I suggest chakrams over daggers.
I think Rapid Shot makes the most sense for you at level 9. At level 10 you'll have 4th level spellcasting, which means with Fate's Favored and Divine Power (quick cast with Fervor) and Rapid Shot you'll have 4 attacks a round. Tack on gloves of dueling and that's a lot of bonuses. You also have Sacred Weapon to grant you bonuses.
Startoss Shower with Weapon Spec is good. That means you'll be dealing +8 damage with your chakrams. Not a bad call.
For a level 12 feat you could get Greater Weapon Focus, but personally I'd Far Shot if you find yourself fighting in a lot of longer-ranged situations. If not, yeah, Greater Weapon Focus is fine. Ooooorrrr get Improved Precise Shot if you go with a DEX build.
Also, remember that you're getting Quickened Blessing (War) for free from your archetype. That's a swift action boost to your AB.
If you decide to go the STR route, consider the Two-Handed Thrower feat. Assuming you have 18 STR at the start and eventually get 20 STR by level 10, tacking on +4 STR from buffs or items for a total of 24 (+7), you'll be dealing +10 damage with your thrown weapons from strength alone.
So for starters your plan of using Spring loaded wrist sheaths isn't gonna work out as they require a swift action. So that means you can only draw one dagger per round and you also can't use fervor and you can't activate startoss style either. Anyways startoss style for Warpriests is a bit of a trap due to the need to activate fervor, sacred weapon and your style as a swift action.
Guess the one dagger per round isn't an issue as you are not planning to take rapid shot but tbh that's just ludicrous. Many combats in PFS revolve around one big boss monster and maybe one or two mooks. In these instances Startoss style isn't gonna be useful (the damage bonus is of course but not the cleaving part).
So you really want to get Quick Draw at level 1. You also really want Rapid Shot and you might also want to stack it with TWF, however TWF doesn't work with Startoss Style at all. I'd also get Deific Obedience Pharasma as quickly (definitely better than Weapon Spec or Star Toss) as possible and I'd think about multi classing with fighter (2 levels) and later moving into the Sentinel PRC as it's quite good for Pharasma.
Also check out the following Item it will help a little with daggers crappy range:
Hunter's Sight 100GP
This complicated lens fits over one eye and takes up the eyes slot when in use. When using it in conjunction with a ranged weapon, you reduce any range penalty on your attacks by 2.
Objects within 100 feet become difficult to see, however, and you take a -2 penalty on Perception checks based on sight while wearing the hunter's sight.
A note on Hunter's Sight: that still means your daggers only don't have a penalty for the first 20 feet. Again, that's why I recommend Chakrams.
Anyways startoss style for Warpriests is a bit of a trap due to the need to activate fervor, sacred weapon and your style as a swift action.
It's complicated but it works fine, especially if you're good at gauging when fights are about to go down and can cast one of your important buffs just before the fight happens. (See: Divine Favor lasts a minute, so right before you kick the door in if you KNOW there's enemies inside, cast that. Or, say, a spell with min/level duration.)
But he has a point. With Startoss Style you'll need to spend a swift action to turn it on, and it HAS to be done DURING combat. That's a caveat I learned while building my warslinger warpriest, fun as that was. On a related note, eventually buying a Lesser Extend Spell Rod might be a good idea (assuming that's allowed in PFS).
And he's definitely write on Quick Draw: get that ASAP. It makes your life easier. I'd get it in place of Startoss Comet at 3, then get Startoss Comet at 5.
Also, here's a rundown of how most fights will go:
Round 1: Swift-action cast Divine Power OR Divine Favor (thank you Fervor), full attack.
Round 2: Startoss Style (swift), get cracking. Full attack.
Round 3: Some buff spell or maybe Quicken Blessing (swift), full attack.
Round 4: Another buff probably (swift), full attack.
You can see that your swift actions will be eaten.
If you have to move and attack, Startoss Shower becomes fun. It's useful for fighting small mobs of enemies, which you won't have happen all the time, but less useful on bosses as Alex pointed out. So, when fighting a boss, make sure you get a full attack action off as often as possible. When fighting groups of foes, use your comet.
(A note on Startoss Comet: your daggers SUCK for that. They have to bounce to enemies that are within 1 ranged increment of each other, or 10 feet. Chakrams have 3 times the bounce range. Again: PLEASE use Chakrams, or perhaps Javelins.)
Now, you'll want to try to cast buffs before fights as often as you can. At lower levels an extend rod + bull's strength = a good damage boost (+2) or potentially damage AND attack boost if you took the STR route I discussed. Keep a Protection From Evil spell memorized at the start of the adventuring day so you can bolster yourself with it when you approach the dungeon or what-not.
EDIT: Here's my level-up layout suggestion, by the way.
16+2/15/12/10/14/7
LVL 1 Point-Blank Shot
LVL 1 Human bonus: Precise Shot
LVL 1 Class Feature: Weapon Focus: Chakram
LVL 3 Startoss Style
LVL 3 WP: Quick Draw
LVL 5 Rapid Shot
LVL 5 Class Feature: Weapon Training 1
LVL 6 Human alternate racial: Weapon Specialization
LVL 6 WP: Ricochet Toss
LVL 7 Startoss Comet
LVL 9 Point Blank Master
LVL 9 WP: Startoss Shower
LVL 11 Greater Weapon Focus
LVL 12 WP: Far Shot OR Greater Weapon Spec
DEX BUILD
14/16+2/12/12/14/7
LVL 1 Point-Blank Shot
LVL 1 Human bonus: Precise Shot
LVL 1 Class Feature: Weapon Focus: Chakram
LVL 3 Startoss Style
LVL 3 WP: Quick Draw
LVL 5 Rapid Shot
LVL 5 Class Feature: Weapon Training 1
LVL 6 Human alternate racial: Weapon Specialization
LVL 6 WP: Startoss Comet
LVL 7 Startoss Shower
LVL 9 Point Blank Master
LVL 9 WP: Greater Weapon Focus
LVL 11 Improved Precise Shot
LVL 12 WP: Far Shot OR Greater Weapon Spec
If I were to build a warpriest thrower for PFS I might make use of the retraining rules and start of with weapon focus (Shuriken). Then once I have all my mandatory feats together retrain weapon focus to dagger and pick up deific obedience.
Shuriken start to fall off when weapon enhancements start to become mandatory (prolly starting round level 5 or so) until then they deal the same amount of damage as daggers.
Also I agree with Inlaa 20 range isn't really enough but it's better than nuffin. Now if I were to build a thrower I'd take 2 levels of hurler savage technologist barbarian for starters...
Personally, 30 range weapon (like chakram of javelin) + those hunter goggles = 60 foot range without penalty or 30 with the bounce = more than enough.
Also, check the leveling schemes I provided. Assuming the STR build, by level 6 you've got 2 attacks per turn with Divine Favor (+3 DAM/AB with Fate's Favored), +2 damage from Startoss Style, +2 from Weapon Spec, and +1 attack/damage from Weapon Training, so +4 attack / +8 damage.
By level 10 you should have the gloves of dueling and be casting Divine Power 1-2 times a day, so...
Divine Power (+4) with Weapon Training (+4) with weapon spec and three Startoss feats (+8 damage) - before sacred weapon or weapon enhancement bonuses or anything else that's +16 damage and +8 attack.
At level 12 that becomes +10 attack from Divine Power/Weapon Training/Feats and +19 damage from spells/weapon training/feats.
And remember, STR means that your 24 STR = +7 attack and damage.
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(A note on Startoss Comet: your daggers SUCK for that. They have to bounce to enemies that are within 1 ranged increment of each other, or 10 feet. Chakrams have 3 times the bounce range. Again: PLEASE use Chakrams, or perhaps Javelins.)
I'm pretty sure the entire point is to take advantage of River Rat and Deific Obedience Pharasma for bonuses to hit that aren't available for other weapons. As much as I agree that chakrams are generally better throwing weapons, I do think that we need to focus on daggers here. (Unless there's stuff that lets people count chakrams as daggers that I'm not aware of.)
On the plus side the access to the extra attack bonus means that you may be able to get away with activating Startoss Style before using fervor, since you already have that extra +3 attack bonus that others don't have.
Ricochet Toss doesn't require Weapon Specialization. It requires weapon training which you get at level 5 for being a Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain.
Before you read up too much on Molthune remember that River Rat is a regional trait from Taldor...
If you are using the blinkback belt and TWF you might get away with using only one weapon but I wouldn't bet on most GMs allowing this.
But if you are concerned that you can't get sacred weapon on both of your daggers then take a deep breath and realize that ability to enchant weapons with Sacred weapon is actually only a secondary class feature for the warpriest and only good for a number of round equal to your level. The far more important class feature is Fervor. The standard modus operandi of any warpriest will be:
Round 1: Swift action divine Favor
Round 2: either second swift action Fervor for a higher level buff spell or activate
Round 3: At higher levels you will have enough resources to buff even further but at low levels you will just try to kill stuff fast.
Round 4: Most PFS combats will be over by now.
Strength vs Dex: I might be horrible wrong, but I feel that Dex gives the better boost, at lvl 1 my build would have 19 AC, bonuses to some skills, and a high to hit bonus. The strength build would be lagging behind until I get the 14000 needed to get the belt of mighty hurling.
Weeeeell...
Warpriests get Heavy Armor Proficiency. That means you can wear Full Plate, or Mithral Full Plate eventually. Mithral Full Plate = 9 AC with +3 max dex; standard full plate means 9 AC with +1 max dex. So, sure, at level 1 you'll have more AC, but for a game that usually "caps" at 10-12 level (PFS), you'll probably find going with STR and full plate gives you roughly equal footing in the AC department.
As far as attack goes, that's why you'll want 15 starting dex to go with your 18 STR. Sure, you might have 2 less attack at level 1, but you deal 2 more damage. You can also function perfectly fine in melee without Weapon Finesse thanks to your STR. Your AB will be boosted by Divine Favor + Fate's Favored, too. And don't forget you can always spend on action on your War Blessing.
So yes, early on your attack will suffer slightly. Rotate between throwing your daggers and entering melee with then; maybe keep a cestus for melee combat at the early levels too; it has bludgeoning damage to help you deal with, say, skeletons, and you can wear it in the same hand you're throwing daggers with. Also remember that shields can be used to shield-bash (although you lose the shield AC bonus when doing so), and you can use shields as two-handed weapons.
And finally, remember that when you DO get your belt of mighty hurling, you're adding damage and attack from the same stat and you're wearing full plate so your AC is fine. But there IS a distinct flavor difference to that: a man in full plate throwing daggers might seem silly.
So, let's focus on DEX stuff.
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Would blink back belt allow you to TWF throw with just one dagger?
I wouldn't try it. If you ever rotate PFS GMs and their rule interpretations change you'll find yourself wishing you hadn't taken TWF. Just do what will DEFINITELY work RAW: Rapid Shot. (If I were a GM, I wouldn't let the TWF with one weapon thing fly; that's a special quality that belongs to the Flurry class ability in my book.)
Oh, I COMPLETELY forgot to mention Deadly Aim earlier.
So, with your AMAZING attack bonus (and yes I mean amazing) you should definitely getting grabbing Deadly Aim at some point. It's a good feat. It will also help make up for your lower STR (again, try to have 14 STR instead of 12 - that's why I recommended 14/16+2/12/12/14/7 for a DEX build): it sacrifices some CHA you might not use much if at all (you have very few skill points) and gives you a small but noticeable boost to damage.
Now, since your belt is PROBABLY going to be a blinkback belt and IDK if you can make it a blinkback belt with +4 DEX or not, I'm going to advise an investment in a Lesser Extend Metamagic Rod eventually. At level 10 you can use that to make spells that would last 10 minutes last 20 minutes instead - you know, like Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance and Cat's Grace. There's some utility to be had there.
I'd recommend against taking TWF in general. It reduces your AB by another 2 points (which I suppose you can deal with given your spells), it would make Startoss Style (the cream of your build) not work, and you're already going to get 4 attacks a round by 10th level, or 5 if you hit 15th (is that possible in PFS?). That's nooooot bad at all.
Before you read up too much on Molthune remember that River Rat is a regional trait from Taldor...
Right. Just also remember that the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain is from Molthune. Consider how your character can be from both places:
Maybe s/he deserted Molthune and became a mercenary in Taldor?
Maybe s/he was raised in Taldor but eventually started working in Molthune?
Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain isn't required to be from molthune. That's just where "the style/technique" was made.
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Molthuni arsenal chaplains are warpriests trained in the Arsenal District in Korholm. They bolster their nation’s military by focusing on the militant aspects of their gods.
It seems pretty explicit that you were trained in that district.
I played this kind of character before, and it's quite fun. I used a +1 returning dagger and threw it with Startoss. Usually that was all I'd need, but if things got close I had a dagger for melee too. It's usually safe to use fervor the round after your style.
All that stuff about Molthune is just fluff. You can coin it however you want. Just write Militant Pharasmian on your charsheet, be whoever you want to be and be done with it! No need to attach too much meaning to labels.
Point Blank Master is usually a waste of a feat. 5 foot steps will get you out of most sticky places and in your average PFS combat you won't have too many opponents getting close to you anyhow. Even if you do find yourself in a sticky spot you're only really screwed if your foe has combat reflexes and even then you just provoke once and use startoss style.
If you really want to find out whether high STR or high DEX is gonna be better or whether TWF or Startoss Style is gonna deal more damage just run the numbers.
All that stuff about Molthune is just fluff. You can coin it however you want. Just write Militant Pharasmian on your charsheet, be whoever you want to be and be done with it! No need to attach too much meaning to labels.
My only complaint on that note is then why not apply the same logic to the Regional traits? Either way.
Yeah, Point Blank Master is only effective if your enemies use Step Up. I highly doubt they will. Five foot free steps will do the heavy lifting for you.
Does anyone know at what lvl a PS character can expect to afford a belt of mighty hurling/blinkback?
A belt of mighty hurling is 15K and thus can't be acquired before level 8 or 9 at the earliest. Also consider that that 15k investment is competing with Gloves of Dueling and Gold is a limited resource.
A blink back belt is 5k and will be available at level 4.
They can never ever be combined in PFS.
Yeah, I don't know what the WBL for Pathfinder Society is like, so I'll happily defer to Alex Mack on this one. If that's true, the DEX route sounds good - you could eventually get the gloves AND the mighty hurling belt, but that'll be after you've leveled this guy pretty far.
And as I said above, a guy in full plate throwing daggers is a bit odd. I'd build a full plate thrower, but I don't think daggers make it work thematically.
And as you yourself pointed out, Grakul, you'll have a pretty solid start with high AC.
My only complaint on that note is then why not apply the same logic to the Regional traits? Either way.
Because by the rules regional traits can only be picked up by characters from that region. That's RAW.
But as Iammars pointed out the river rat trait has been refluffed to no longer require characters to hail from Taldor.
Point taken, I suppose.
One last bit of advice for the throwing setup: with your terrible range, you should probably consider points in Acrobatics. If you ever DO get caught in melee, you need to be able to tumble out of enemy reach. And since you'll have a high DEX, you'll be off to a good start. I don't think you'll get it as a class skill, though, with both River Rat and Fate's Favored taking up your trait slots. Ideally, you'll be avoiding melee contact, but with an effective range of 4 squares without penalty when wearing those goggles... Yeah, you'll be fighting up close and personal enough that if a GM wants a monster in your face it will BE in your face.
Spellcraft might be a good choice so you can identify spells being cast (unless you've memorized the different encounters and the spells enemies use in them already and metagame that).
Consider adventuring with someone that can provide a good zone of control and keep enemies off you (if you have a friend you can ask to join you).
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First of all, if you are just wanting to build a dagger-thrower, you could also take a look at flying blade swashbuckler. But warpriest isn't a bad choice either.
I would advice against STR build, since you would be struggling to hit anything without BoMH, and that's probably 2/3 or 3/4 of your PFS career. With DEX build, remember that dagger is a light weapon, and therefore finessable and by RAW can take agile enchantment (and RAW throwing agile weapon works, but it's bit on the grey area)
Note that Startoss shower will not give you any extra attacks during PFS levels (well, depending how you read the feat), so you only get +2 damage from that.
As others mentioned, you should take Deadly aim, preferably early on. I would also try to fit in weapon finesse somewhere, then you would be able to fight well in and out of melee range. That would also negate completely the need for point blank master.
The only real issue with Far Strike Monk is that you can't get extra attacks from Rapid Shot.
There was recently a thread clarifying how startoss shower works. You get a second extra attack at BAB +6.
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Startoss Shower builds on Startoss Comet (as was clarified by the designer).
Another Paizo poster did very clear break down of what that meant by BAB:
To be 100% Precise, to maximum total number of targets you can attack is this:
Startoss Shower:
2 targetsStartoss Comet:
BAB4, 2 targets (+2 Damage from Startoss Style)
BAB5-9, 3 targets
BAB10-14, 4 targets
BAB15-19, 5 targets
BAB20, 6 targets
I'd increase DEX. Use magic items to boost WIS; you can get +2 WIS pretty easily, meaning you can cast 6th level spells with magic items. DEX is more important to you after you achieve 16 WIS.
Have you considered building this as a Flying Bkade Swashbuckler? (As Karma suggested, above?)
It's not a *stronger* build, but it does seem to fit the fluff you're aiming for better. (For example, it gives you more skill points, has class features which incentivize being lightly armored, has class features dedicated to making you good at throwing things, etc.)
Not wearing armor WOULD be a problem though. And you're losing another point of BAB, and you're slowing down your spell progression, and you're losing out Sacred Weapon progression, weapon training progression, uhhhh... A lot of things that makes the Arsenal Chaplain so good.
I'd stick with pure warpriest over a 1 level dip into Monk.
I think the thing that makes the Arsenal Chaplain better than the Flying Blade for this is that the former has weapon training, and thus can bypass the feat tax for Ricochet Toss while the latter does not.
Particularly if you're throwing daggers, there may be situations where there aren't a bunch of enemies tightly packed so you won't be able to get a full startoss off so you might just want to throw multiple weapons at one enemy (and this opens up your belt slot to be whatever and you saves you from having to enchant a pile of daggers.)
If your heart's not set on ricochet toss (I consider it indispensible for throwers) then by all means the flying blade is functional.
So to be clear, flurrying to gain the exact same benefits(and your BAB from monk levels = your monk levels) as rapid shot for free without having to take the feat, is an issue because it doesn't stack with rapid shot?
Like, you already effectively have the feat without wasting a slot, you just have to not wear armor.
Yup. Other monk archetypes or Unchained monk can combine flurry with rapid shot. Other builds can combine TWF and Rapid Shot.
Don't get me wrong Far Strike monk is nifty but it's not as great as it looks on paper if you run the numbers.
It does have the big advantage to be functional earlier than other throwers as it essentially gets 4 bonus feats in two levels. But to then reap the rewards you kind of have to stick with it to level 8 for ki pool at 4th and the extra attack at 8th. But when doing so you get no class specific precision or damage enhancers.
Another big plus is that it only requires you to enchant one weapon however. If you can start with an agile weapon and a blink back belt it's actually hands down the best thrower, but in PFS you will play half your career before getting a +2 weapon and thus can't really dump STR.
The one downside about the belt in PFS is you can't get a Belt of Incredible Dexterity at the same time I don't believe. So, that's where Cat's Grace and a Lesser Extend Rod can come into play again.
Of course, that means your +4 DEX is prone to being removed by a dispel magic thrown in your direction. Not sure how often that happens in PFS.
PossibleCabbage:
"Swashbuckler weapon training" does not count as "Weapon training" for feats that have it as a prerequisite?
Something only counts as weapon training if it's named "Weapon Training" (and not the rogue talent) or says it functions like "Weapon Training" using those terms explicitly. By RAW swashbucklers can't use gloves of dueling, take advanced weapon training, or bypass the Martial Focus feat tax for things like ricochet toss.
This kind of bites, but I figure by now everybody understands that the reason to play a swashbuckler is not "it's powerful."
Wait, I thought you couldn't combine flurry with rapid shot.
They added an extra line in the Far Strike Monk Flurry that you can't combine them. This language is missing in both the regular and unchained monk entries. There's a number of threads on the topic in the rules question sub forum also.
Then they prolly copy pasted it from Zen Archer when writing the Farstrike Monk. The important part is it's missing in the base Monk...
Weapon Mastery Feats and Advanced Weapon Training are completely different things.
The Arsenal Chaplain, the Sohei, the Myrmidarch Magus, anybody with VMC fighter etc. should have no problem qualifying for weapon mastery feats since those have a prereq of "weapon training class feature" which Swashbuckler Weapon Mastery is not but all of the aforementioned have.
The reason Advanced Weapon training is an issue is that it relies on a bunch of different ideas: weapon groups, fighter levels, it's also a feat, etc.
ricochet toss is a weapon mastery feat which requires the fighter's weapon training and thus the chaplain does and always has in PFS, qualify for it.
As you showed, in PFS they can't take AWT, both free upgrades and feat.
So there is no table variation if the chaplain qualifies for weapon mastery feats because they do. Well, at least as much variation as people have on power attack and how much of a penalty it gives.
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Startoss Shower builds on Startoss Comet (as was clarified by the designer).
Another Paizo poster did very clear break down of what that meant by BAB:
Nice, I hope this counts as official in PFS.
@Grakul: In your last build you are just making one attack until level 5, and the damage isn't very impressive. So levels 3-4 will be kind of painful. Of course, all thrown builds start very slow (except Far Strike Monk).
@Grakul: In your last build you are just making one attack until level 5, and the damage isn't very impressive. So levels 3-4 will be kind of painful. Of course, all thrown builds start very slow (except Far Strike Monk).
Most other build will also bring more to the table than a Warpriest who has like 0 out of combat utility aside from healing.
And throwing one dagger for 4 levels will make you feel pathetic for a quarter of your PFS career.
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Then they prolly copy pasted it from Zen Archer when writing the Farstrike Monk. The important part is it's missing in the base Monk...
True but they also have a limited option as to range weapons without having to spend feats to learn the a martial/exotic throwing weapon.
If you wanted to throw Shurikens it could work, but all the bonus feats would not do much for a ranged stadnard monk.