Future of the Democratic Party

[Knight who says Meh]

Quote:

How on earth do you not conclude that you've been duped about the laws intent at this point?

It's not the conclusion he wants to reach.

[Jesse Heinig]

It's pretty amazing that I was just thinking to myself, "The Republicans sell this to their base by convincing them that the only way Democrats win any election ever is by massive voter fraud from 'illegal immigrants' and 'dead voter rolls,' but why bother saying it when it's so far afield from the topic of the thread," and then someone came in and claimed exactly that.

[Guy Humual]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Guy Humual wrote:

It's why, in real life, you have president Kodos rather president Kang.

No.That is not true

No, stop that. This is getting people hurt.

The two parties are NOT the same. Can you honestly tell me we would have an iraq war under president gore? Do you think a repeal of oabama care would be going anywhere with president hillary in the oval office?

By all means, the democrats are more than open for criticism for being shills for big business, corporations, and foreign interests. But they are NOT as bad as the republicans. They are not undermining the fundamental freedoms that act as a check on government, and there is NO way forward without the democratic party.

I don't know Wolf, if democrats were truly a lot better then they should be winning elections all the time. The republicans don't strike me as master manipulators. Someone higher up is pulling the strings and no matter who wins the election seems like the American public loses. They're not as bad, but they're also not so good either.

[BigNorseWolf]

Guy Humual wrote:

I don't know Wolf, if democrats were truly a lot better then they should be winning elections all the time.

I don't think you fully comprehend how bad the situation with republican voters believing alternative facts is down here. What they actually ARE is irrelevant compared to what they are perceived as.

[Guy Humual]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Guy Humual wrote:

I don't know Wolf, if democrats were truly a lot better then they should be winning elections all the time.

I don't think you fully comprehend how bad the situation with republican voters believing alternative facts is down here. What they actually ARE is irrelevant compared to what they are perceived as.

All I'll say is that I hope they go the Warren, Sanders, Gabbard route in the future.

[Jesse Heinig]

Everyone here is familiar with the Overton window, yes?

We as a culture here in the U.S.A. have gotten very good at making tiny changes that let us feel like we have caused substantial policy shifts, when in fact we've managed to carry on much of the same oppression, just under a slightly-obfuscated guise. For instance, we may have outlawed slavery, but it's still totally legal for a privately-owned prison to force inmates to work below minimum wage for the profits of an outside company, and it's disproportionately black men who are incarcerated in that system... so it may not be legal for someone to take your kids and sell them as slaves, but if you're a black man in the U.S.A., it's totally legal for the government to ship your kids off to work as cheap labor under incarceration where they can't leave. Is this "better"? That's kind of a loaded question, but it's sure not "good." Yet it's hardly addressed in our politics and a large swath of the public body would say that we're way better now than when slavery was an open institution - but arguably we've moved it from an open institution to an obfuscated one.

Plus of course there's that 10-20% (I'm guessing, largely influenced by the numbers of how many people go out and vote in specific policies) who are actively racist, sexist, homophobic, etc., and campaign for systematic discrimination or even for killing people who fit into those categories.

In the meantime, because we've obfuscated a lot of discrimination, it's still systemic but people just don't think about it until and unless they experience it.

Also we have this long tradition that in the U.S. if you're from a minority group you're going to be treated like crap systemically, and now we're seeing the demographic shift in which whites are becoming a minority, so of course there's a knee-jerk response to try to roll that back and it often comes out as blowback against oppressed groups. But it's got to be cloaked in some kind of position of virtue so that the white people arguing for this stuff can pretend they are doing it because they're the ones who are oppressed and that they are the victims fighting the good fight, so we see this in a range of positions from arguments about ridiculous "white genocide" to the flip side of "super-predators" and aspersions about how nonwhite, non-Christian groups are bad people. It's a narrative of convenience designed to get white people to feel like they are the disadvantaged and disempowered people, in order to get them to vote against their neighbors - and in some cases, against their own interests.

Add in gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the fact that PACs and corporations have more influence on the election process than individual voters, and you have a system in which it doesn't matter what most people are voting anyway, because you're stuck voting on terrible candidates or terrible bills. You can't vote in a better law if a better law can never arrive to the table based on how the system works.

So even if a large chunk of the voting population in the country is against, say, discriminatory policies, or for comprehensive health care, or against war in the Middle East, or whatever, it doesn't matter because most of their votes will never be counted anyway, and for anything that's important to lucrative corporations and super-rich families, you won't even be allowed to vote on the issue.

[Vidmaster7]

Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Vidmaster7 wrote:

3 times? were you going for is a charm and got your out instead?

I'm not sure what that means, but I heard that after age 65 you can attend Massachusetts state schools for free, so, assuming I'm still alive in a quarter-century, and assuming our civilization hasn't collapsed (neither of which I feel confident about), I'll finish up then.

Third times a charm vrs 3 strikes and your out.

[CBDunkerson]

Lou Diamond wrote:

BNW there was wide spread voter fraud in Detroit in the last election counting was stopped by the court when it proven that there were more votes cast than registered voters.

More fiction

Quote:

There should be only be one type of ID allowed for voting

So why do you suppose Republicans all across the country have consistently voted to allow numerous forms of ID for voting that would not be valid for travel, getting a driver's license, or other forms of identity verification?

Quote:

Why is the dead vote in Cook county always talked about?

Because racists can't let go?

For the record, in the past decade, ten votes in Cook County were investigated as possible instances of voter fraud. Only one of those was found to be actual fraud... out of more than 9.078 million votes.

1 / 9,078,000

Quote:

B1 Bob lost his seat in congress years ago to Loretta Sanchez because of Illegals voting

No, he didn't. Incorrect voting procedures allowed a few hundred documented immigrants (i.e. not 'illegals') to vote after qualifying for US citizenship, but before their swearing in ceremony. The GOP controlled congress investigated exhaustively, but could not come up with enough to overturn Sanchez's margin of victory.

Quote:

You want to know why I will never vote Democrat.

Because you have chosen to infantilize yourself in a GOP fairy-tale world... refusing to re-examine your beliefs despite being shown over and over again that they are based on lies?

Quote:

They do not take national security seriously

Republicans blocked Clinton's efforts to go after Osama bin Laden. The Bush administration abandoned those efforts... until after 9/11.

Quote:

they gut the military

US military spending is far and away the highest in the world.

Quote:

and try to buy votes with that money with blacks and latinos.

Funny. Given that blacks and latinos are heavily over-represented in the US military you'd think throwing more money that way would be considered trying to buy their votes... as opposed to pushing programs like Obamacare that benefit all 'races'.

[Vidmaster7]

No problem!

[CBDunkerson]

Vidmaster7 wrote:

You have I think a typo on your 6th reply. Right before bin laden.

Wow. Thank you.

[Knight who says Meh]

Trump fires Comey

[Guy Humual]

Well this won't help the rumors of a Russia scandal and cover up as James Comey was in the middle of an investigation on the subject I believe.

[Cosmo]

Removed several ad hominem attacks and their responses. Keep it civil or this thread will be closed.

[MMCJawa]

“While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the bureau,” Mr. Trump said in a letter to Mr. Comey dated Tuesday."

Not a good way to phrase something if you don't want people to think you are firing someone because they are investigating you...

[Pan]

In other news, Handel not happy about court ruling to allow voter registration to reopen briefly before run off election against Ossoff.

[bugleyman]

Knight who says Meh wrote:

Trump fires Comey

Well, that's one way to end an FBI investigation.

Can I be alarmed yet, or I am still paranoid?

[thejeff]

Guy Humual wrote:

Well this won't help the rumors of a Russia scandal and cover up as James Comey was in the middle of an investigation on the subject I believe.

Yup, apparently Comey isn't enough of a loyalist to be trusted. It was pretty much inevitable, but doing the day after Sally Yates testified about that Russian investigation is surprising. Of course, Comey was scheduled to testify himself in a couple days.

Mind you, the cover of firing him because of wrongdoing in the investigation of Clinton is a masterful piece of chutzpah. Even being able to say that with a straight face is impressive.

There's also an amusing parallel in him doing so on Session's recommendation. As we learned yesterday in Sally Yate's testimony, last time an Attorney General advised Trump about problems with someone in his government, she was fired (for unrelated reasons, of course) and Flynn was kept on until those problems went public.

More seriously, this is big. A president firing the official investigating his administration and his campaign? Shades of Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre.
We need an independent special prosecutor.

[CBDunkerson]

Comey needed to be fired. However, it is certainly odd that they kept him odd for so long... given that the reasons they are now citing for the dismissal all happened before Trump was even elected.

[thejeff]

bugleyman wrote:

Knight who says Meh wrote:

Trump fires Comey

Well, that's one way to end an FBI investigation.

Can I be alarmed yet, or I am still paranoid?

It is kind of an "Yeah, I'm guilty. Wanna make something of it?" move, isn't it.

[Knight who says Meh]

Cosmo wrote:

Removed several ad hominem attacks and their responses. Keep it civil or this thread will be closed.

Just want to be clear on this. Being racist is okay but calling out racism is not?

[Cosmo]

Knight who says Meh wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Removed several ad hominem attacks and their responses. Keep it civil or this thread will be closed.

Just want to be clear on this. Being racist is okay but calling out racism is not?

Please direct your call outs to the statement, rather than the person. Furthermore, even if you are calling out despicable things, you need to ensure that your tone is civil.

Website moderation is an imperfect science and we welcome discussion about it. However, please direct any further discussion of moderation to Website Feedback or email [e-mail].

In order to curtail further off-topic posting, I've removed a few posts replying to your post and will continue to remove future derailing posts in this thread.

[Rednal]

If I understand things correctly... the Trump administration has fired the person leading the investigation on Trump, the person who would have judged the case, and the person who would have headed the prosecution - all while in the middle of looking into what he's done.

(Admittedly, after the latest revelations, I'm not surprised Comey was let go... but still.)

Hm.

I admit, I'm curious to see how the Democratic Party responds to all of this.

[bugleyman]

thejeff wrote:

]It is kind of an "Yeah, I'm guilty. Wanna make something of it?" move, isn't it.

That's certainly how I took it.

Now watch as a the parade of spineless Republican leaders put party before country. One could be forgiven for thinking they're reacting to Trump being caught sneaking away from a fender bender in the White House parking lot...

[A highly regarded expert]

History repeating itself?

[bugleyman]

Rednal wrote:

If I understand things correctly... the Trump administration has fired the person leading the investigation on Trump, the person who would have judged the case, and the person who would have headed the prosecution - all while in the middle of looking into what he's done.

Correct. It's flagrantly authoritarian.

[bugleyman]

A highly regarded expert wrote:

History repeating itself?

One can only hope it ends the same. However, that would require the Republican controlled House to grow a pair.

[Irontruth]

White voters in economic distress more likely to vote for Clinton.

[thejeff]

Irontruth wrote:

White voters in economic distress more likely to vote for Clinton.

Key bits from that, for those who don't read the whole thing.

Quote:

People who said their finances are only in fair or poor shape were nearly twice as likely to support Clinton compared to those who feel more economically secure.

Quote:

only a small portion—just 27 percent—of white working-class voters said they favor a policy of identifying and deporting immigrants who are in the country illegally. Among the people who did share this belief, Trump was wildly popular: 87 percent of them supported the president in the 2016 election.

Quote:

three factors stood out as strong independent predictors of how white working-class people would vote. The first was anxiety about cultural change. Sixty-eight percent of white working-class voters said the American way of life needs to be protected from foreign influence. And nearly half agreed with the statement, “things have changed so much that I often feel like a stranger in my own country.” Together, these variables were strong indictors of support for Trump: 79 percent of white working-class voters who had these anxieties chose Trump, while only 43 percent of white working-class voters who did not share one or both of these fears cast their vote the same way.

It's an interesting twist on everyone telling us it was an election where people wanted change. Maybe they did, but only a specific kind of change - as I said earlier they wanted a stop to social change. Which is kind of like change, if you think of it as a change to the path we were on.

[Orville Redenbacher]

Yeah lots of folks want the good ole days of the 1950's back. When America was "great".

[MannyGoblin]

I have no idea if this would go here or in comics but since it deals with Trump what they heck. On Amazon and other places there have been shirts that cross Trump/Superman where Trump opens his shirt to reveal the Big 'S'. I think the designer didn't think this through.

Kal-El/Supes came from Krypton when his parents put him into a rocket

Rocket landed on Earth where he was found by the Kents.

It differs here where the Kents adopt Clark or claim Ma Kent gave birth to him.

So if going by the current logic, The Kents illegally adopted a (literal) illegal alien. Since Trump has a big agenda of deporting illegal aliens/not letting them in, having him show the 'S' is something that he would not do and no doubt would want Superman out of america at the very least.

Makes no sense? Well as stated in DC Comics itself 'Logic has no place in a world with jet-pack pandas'

[CBDunkerson]

thejeff wrote:

It is kind of an "Yeah, I'm guilty. Wanna make something of it?" move, isn't it.

To be fair... the Trump administration has repeatedly shown that they really are just that stupid.

That is, sure the logical conclusion here is that Trump fired Comey to impede the Russia investigation... but it is also possible that they were too dim to predict that reaction and Trump just fired Comey because he wasn't enough of a 'yes man'.

So... they may not be guilty. They could just be incompetent.

In a sane world that would be the end of significant support for Trump either way... but we have to remember that his supporters faced a similar choice when his defense against the appearance that he was a sexual predator was that no, he just liked to lie about being a sexual predator... and then elected him anyway.

[Delightful]

Yes, but Superman is a white illegal alien which makes him an acceptable immigrant to our planet. If the Last Son of Krypton was a brown person, well, that would be a completely different story.

[thejeff]

CBDunkerson wrote:

thejeff wrote:

It is kind of an "Yeah, I'm guilty. Wanna make something of it?" move, isn't it.

To be fair... the Trump administration has repeatedly shown that they really are just that stupid.

That is, sure the logical conclusion here is that Trump fired Comey to impede the Russia investigation... but it is also possible that they were too dim to predict that reaction and Trump just fired Comey because he wasn't enough of a 'yes man'.

So... they may not be guilty. They could just be incompetent.

In a sane world that would be the end of significant support for Trump either way... but we have to remember that his supporters faced a similar choice when his defense against the appearance that he was a sexual predator was that no, he just liked to lie about being a sexual predator... and then elected him anyway.

Also in a sane world, this would lead to more investigations - either serious ones from Congress or an independent prosecutor. In this world, partisanship will prevent both.

In support of the incompetent hypothesis, leaks from inside the White House suggest the Trump team thought Democrats would be unable to respond to the firing because of their problems with Comey's political interference with the election. (Mind you, incompetence doesn't rule out criminality.)

[MMCJawa]

My favorite quote from the Comey affair is this:

“While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the bureau,” Mr. Trump said in a letter to Mr. Comey dated Tuesday.

Trump...just can't help himself, and just is straight up politically incompetent. If he doesn't want people to think the firing is about the Russia investigation, than maybe don't reference the Russian investigation in your firing letter.

[Vidmaster7]

Seriously what will it take?

[MMCJawa]

More on the utter incompetence of this decision.

Behind Comey's firing

A lot of folks in the bureau are pretty ticked over this. If Trump thought there were leak problems before, this can only make them worse.

[CBDunkerson]

They are now claiming that this was all Rosenstein.

All on his own, the deputy attorney general launched an investigation in to the director of the FBI and concluded that the guy had to go. His 'case', which consisted entirely of things which have been publicly known since before Trump was elected, was then SO compelling that attorney general Sessions and president Trump saw no choice but to go along with it... despite having previously praised Comey for the exact things he is now supposedly being fired for.

Meanwhile, Rosenstein claims he too had no choice... as this was the only way to restore confidence in the impartiality of the FBI.

Boy is THAT working.

[Orville Redenbacher]

Now if they could only restore confidence in the White House.....Maybe Trump can rely more on Sessions as W.H. council counsel.

[BigNorseWolf]

Trump: " Comney, you're fired. Your blatant disregard for FBI procedures put a dangerous , unstable man with no qualification in the white house. I'm going to have your successor look into this person, who they are, and how they got here...

[thejeff]

1) Sessions recuses himself from the Russia investigation.
2) Sessions recommends firing the man in charge of the Russian investigation.
3) ....
4) Profit!

[thejeff]

I hope the Acting Director (Andy McCabe, apparently) is working to lock down everything he can about those investigations - get everything in process and in positions where it can't easily be dismissed by whatever puppet Trump appoints.

[BigNorseWolf]

would it be too much to ask for them to appoint comney as the special prosecutor?

[feytharn]

Orville Redenbacher wrote:

Now if they could only restore confidence in the White House.....[...]

Donald Trump wrote: *It is essential that we find new leadership for the FBI that restores public trust and confidence in its vital law enforcement mission*

I second and repeat what Orville wrote: Now if they could only restore confidence in the white house...
Preferably within the same logic...

[CBDunkerson]

Reporter arrested for "yelling questions"

[Fergie]

thejeff wrote:

Quote:

... Sixty-eight percent of white working-class voters said the American way of life needs to be protected from foreign influence. And nearly half agreed with the statement, “things have changed so much that I often feel like a stranger in my own country.” Together, these variables were strong indictors of support for Trump: 79 percent of white working-class voters who had these anxieties chose Trump, while only 43 percent of white working-class voters who did not share one or both of these fears cast their vote the same way.

It's an interesting twist on everyone telling us it was an election where people wanted change. Maybe they did, but only a specific kind of change - as I said earlier they wanted a stop to social change. Which is kind of like change, if you think of it as a change to the path we were on.

I think you may be reading this through the eyes of a Connecticut Yankee, rather then as a member of the population that answered the questions.

"The American Way of life" for many people was putting in time at a factory, or other blue collar job, in order to provide a life for your children that is better then your own. The "foreign influence" of cheep labor in China and Mexico, closed their factories, and the flood of foreign goods through Wal-Mart and now online gutted their down-towns. Walking among these closed up factories and empty storefronts it is hard not to feel like a stranger, foreigner, or even alien. They have become weird places where it is difficult to feel at ease, either as a resident or visitor.

I don't want to minimize any aspects of racism that contributed to Trumps victory, but I also don't want to label people as racist when they are not. The questions you quoted are open ended enough that they could mean almost anything. I would give people the benefit of the doubt, especially considering the all-encompassing decline that many areas faced in the last few decades.

"More than half (52%) of white working-class Americans believe discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks and other minorities, while 70% of white college-educated Americans disagree." - That just seems like straight up racism to me, although I would like to hear why people feel that way (other then FOx News).

[Guy Humual]

CBDunkerson wrote:

Reporter arrested for "yelling questions"

I don't think anyone thought that the persecution of reporters was going to stop once Trump got into office. If anything this is going to get worse.

[BigNorseWolf]

Fergie wrote:

"More than half (52%) of white working-class Americans believe discrimination against whites has become as big a problem as discrimination against blacks and other minorities, while 70% of white college-educated Americans disagree." - That just seems like straight up racism to me, although I would like to hear why people feel that way (other then FOx News).

Because racism against minorities (while i want to stress, is very very real) is hush hush, denied, kept under the rug, to the back room. Its pretty hard to point at something specifically and say there's the racism . To show it conclusively you need to try to eliminate all other variables and life has so many variables that that borders on impossible.

Reverse discrimination is company policy. Its written there, in the manual, that they're doing it. I'm quoting almost verbatim from my old employee handbook which said that racial diversity would be proactively maintained through hiring firing and promotion policies. I can show that in 15 seconds with a highlighter.