it's a uniform DPR decrease to everyone.Except that this assumes that acquiring reasonable defences is equal across the classes which it patently isn't. Looking at things in a vacuum just presents a highly skewed picture.
no it doesn't. dropping the dex, str, or weapon bonus has a DPR decrease for everyone that is the same. That is all the assumption that is being made.
making a character one wants to play is not often not only decided by how much DPR they do.
This DPR shows that if you want an archer that barb wont be doing as much damage as the other options. That the WP and Inq spike the biggest. That the paladin needs to smite to reach the fighter's numbers. It's just a scale for how easy is it for this class doing archery to do damage.
Some people would rule out WP just because it would have few to no skills. Some rule out people reliant on spells or per day abilities. Some would rule out fighter and Cavalier because of only one good save. All DPR comparison's do is help inform one of the DPR capabilities of the class for when one decides to make a character.
no it doesn't. dropping the dex, str, or weapon bonus has a DPR decrease for everyone that is the same. That is all the assumption that is being made.
While I disagree with andreww as well this actually isn't fully accurate.
The contribution of an increase of one point of damage on your overall DPR is highly dependent on you chance to hit and vice versa.
Also both of these factors contribution to DPR is highly dependent on the number of attacks. This isn't such a big deal for this comparison as most builds will be shooting the same amount of arrows (4) per round. Those classes that get additional attacks over other builds are actually at an advantage in these DPR calculations and still they did not come out ahead...
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TBF Inquisitors and war priests get an extra attack (channel power) and are the two strongest examples.
I agree with Andrew. If you look at the DPR Olympics you'd think Two-Handed weapons would give you the greatest amount of DPR. Even when you reduce damage to playable characters, in actual game play, melee types don't get anywhere near the number of full attacks that ranged get. Looking at this in a vacuum would give you the totally wrong answer.
Even if we compare similar types of characters like Archers, you might think Rangers would out DPR everything, but when you play you find you've picked the wrong favored enemy and your damage is extremely limited (I don't know if Rangers have the highest DPR just using it as an example).
Not only that but when you compare something like Paladin, they can only use their smite against one target. So sure it seem awesome that a Paladin has the potential to get up to 320 damage against that target, if the target only has 100 hp, the paladin's DPR is only 100.
It also doesn't take into consideration situational things, even when those situational things happen almost every combat, like cover or concealment. How many times is a Fighter archer, say going to miss because of the -2 to -8 penalty imposed by cover or the 20-50% miss chance by concealment that a Zen Archer or Ranger won't because they get Improved Precise Shot at 6th level vice 11th?
It may give you a starting point, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it.
TBF Inquisitors and war priests get an extra attack (channel power) and are the two strongest examples.
I'll have a toke of whatever you've been smokin!
TBF Inquisitors and war priests get an extra attack (channel power) and are the two strongest examples.I'll have a toke of whatever you've been smokin!
They had the highest DPR in the test in this thread.
I agree with Andrew. If you look at the DPR Olympics you'd think Two-Handed weapons would give you the greatest amount of DPR. Even when you reduce damage to playable characters, in actual game play, melee types don't get anywhere near the number of full attacks that ranged get. Looking at this in a vacuum would give you the totally wrong answer.
Even if we compare similar types of characters like Archers, you might think Rangers would out DPR everything, but when you play you find you've picked the wrong favored enemy and your damage is extremely limited (I don't know if Rangers have the highest DPR just using it as an example).
Not only that but when you compare something like Paladin, they can only use their smite against one target. So sure it seem awesome that a Paladin has the potential to get up to 320 damage against that target, if the target only has 100 hp, the paladin's DPR is only 100.
It also doesn't take into consideration situational things, even when those situational things happen almost every combat, like cover or concealment. How many times is a Fighter archer, say going to miss because of the -2 to -8 penalty imposed by cover or the 20-50% miss chance by concealment that a Zen Archer or Ranger won't because they get Improved Precise Shot at 6th level vice 11th?
It may give you a starting point, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it.
To be fair, seeking is a thing that warrior spirit can put on your bow
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guys, use tools for what they are and stop complaining about what they aren't. These DPR above all else for these classes show the upper end of the DPR the class can pump out at the given level for archery. All of them say what conditions are assumed for the DPR, like having instant enemy or smite evil.
When deciding on which class to play it's only providing one point of info. ex. archer barbs will have a harder time dealing damage than other classes.
It's especially funny because someone asked for some DPR comparisons of classes.
Well what about a little DPR competition assuming 20 Pt buy at level 10 versus AC 24 and WBL.
So they were provided. So it's not really nice to then complain that these DPR comparisons don't cover X or factor in Y when that's not the goal of the exercise.
Rather than wbl, why not use automatic bonus progression?
Lots of people don't use/understand/have any real knowledge of that mechanic.
Would solve this debate though.
They had the highest DPR in the test in this thread.TBF Inquisitors and war priests get an extra attack (channel power) and are the two strongest examples.I'll have a toke of whatever you've been smokin!
But they don't get extra attacks from "channel power"... I guess I just have to get used to the era of alternate facts.
I understand that some people don't like DPR as many builds have major issues getting in their full attacks. But archery is for those who always want to full attack. And tada some classes do it better than others. And surprise surprise everyones posterboy the Zen Archer can no longer bask in it's former glory.
So thanks to Chess Pwn for investing the time in putting together the builds. Having empirical data on the basis of which we can argue is way more useful than everyone sharing anecdotal evidence of how their level 15 Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple bossed encounters with a longbow. Hell even a warrior could...
But archery is for those who always want to full attack. And tada some classes do it better than others.
I nominate magical flying Pounce...
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They had the highest DPR in the test in this thread.TBF Inquisitors and war priests get an extra attack (channel power) and are the two strongest examples.I'll have a toke of whatever you've been smokin!But they don't get extra attacks from "channel power"... I guess I just have to get used to the era of alternate facts.
I understand that some people don't like DPR as many builds have major issues getting in their full attacks. But archery is for those who always want to full attack. And tada some classes do it better than others. And surprise surprise everyones posterboy the Zen Archer can no longer bask in it's former glory.
So thanks to Chess Pwn for investing the time in putting together the builds. Having empirical data on the basis of which we can argue is way more useful than everyone sharing anecdotal evidence of how their level 15 Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple bossed encounters with a longbow. Hell even a warrior could...
Divine power sorry. Jeez your quick to insult people.
Most often than not though, you'll be playing under a haste effect if you have a decent team. And Divine powers' extra attack doesn't stack with the haste extra attack.
This essentially means that when part of a team, the archer monk usually does have more attacks per round than their divine comrades, since the ki extra attack does stack.
Most often than not though, you'll be playing under a haste effect if you have a decent team. And Divine powers' extra attack doesn't stack with the haste extra attack.
This essentially means that when part of a team, the archer monk usually does have more attacks per round than their divine comrades, since the ki extra attack does stack.
I've been in plenty of parties where haste hasn't been a common buff. It's certainly always appreciated, but sometimes its just not what the casters are into, they want to toss fireballs around not buff (even if it is technically a better use of resources). Sometimes it's just not an option, though it's great when it is.
The assumption that haste will always be on is mistaken particularly comparing single class DPR as other classes like war priests and their own buffs which don't stack so assuming it's on is actually kind of a nerf to those classes in these comparisons as it gives one of their main advantages away.
Divine power sorry. Jeez your quick to insult people.
Sorry if I offended. Your post made 0 sense to me when I read it, partly because I don't really rate divine power as an extra attack so I never made the connection Channel Power-->Divine Power.
Back on topic. If you find your group is lacking in the haste department, a pair of magic slippers for 12k can be a big help.
This is a comparison of classes giving everyone haste when some classes have no way of getting it without considerable monetary investment in wealth whilst others have their own none stacking buffs isn't a great way of making a comparison.
Yeah, if you start assuming Haste, then why not assume everyone has a host of other common buffs. Heroism, for instance, is rather long lasting and on many spell lists.
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Heroism is single target. Even a level 10 I would not a assume it is being given out to everybody. Which is far more reasonable for haste. But it is perfectly reasonable to assume the warpriest, and inquisitor have it. Which lets them pull away further.
For simplicity it is easiest to leave buffs, not provided by the character, out. But it is worth thinking about the fact that in many peoples groups each build will likely get an extra attack.
This is a comparison of classes giving everyone haste when some classes have no way of getting it without considerable monetary investment in wealth whilst others have their own none stacking buffs isn't a great way of making a comparison.
I don't know about your games, but in mine Haste or Blessing of Fervor go up for every single fight that is remotely challenging.
A character that is only putting the buff up for themselves is pointlessly wasting resources, someone else is already going to cover the entire group.
Yeah, if you start assuming Haste, then why not assume everyone has a host of other common buffs. Heroism, for instance, is rather long lasting and on many spell lists.
Single target buff vs group buff.
It takes considerable resources to cover the entire group with Heroism, etc.
if you want to assume always having haste then divine power at the level chosen can downgrade to divine favor for same attack boost. Then just redo the calculations for DPR but add 1 to everyone's attack roll and an extra full bab shot. My guess it is would favor the guys that full attack from round 1 over those that need a round to buff, but the buffs might be big enough that they still win.
This is a comparison of classes giving everyone haste when some classes have no way of getting it without considerable monetary investment in wealth whilst others have their own none stacking buffs isn't a great way of making a comparison.I don't know about your games, but in mine Haste or Blessing of Fervor go up for every single fight that is remotely challenging.
A character that is only putting the buff up for themselves is pointlessly wasting resources, someone else is already going to cover the entire group.
Yeah, if you start assuming Haste, then why not assume everyone has a host of other common buffs. Heroism, for instance, is rather long lasting and on many spell lists.Single target buff vs group buff.
It takes considerable resources to cover the entire group with Heroism, etc.
I think it's pretty obvious given the opinion I presented that this isn't the case in my games. I've been in a group with 3 people where one never used melee and none were archers so haste/bof never got cast once. I've been in a group with 4 and one wasn't melee and even then there was neither of the above. Been in a 2 man game where it wasn't even possible to apply the buffs
So no those s buffs aren't always around.
Also why is everyone deliberately Miss understanding Melkiador's point? Am I the only one that read 'for example' before heroism, other examples could be bless or prayer or a bards inspiring courage. Call me crazy but I think it was pretty obvious what he meant.
other examples could be bless or prayer or a bards inspiring courage. Call me crazy but I think it was pretty obvious what he meant.
Buffs like Inspire Courage and Bless tend to always apply evenly to the entire group. Their presence, or lack of, tends to have negligible implact on how classes compare towards each other.
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It's likely because you can't realistically compare to haste/blessing of fervour to other spells for a number of reasons. Mostly raw power and consistency. If haste spells can't be included because it is not always available in some game then its not fair to include any other spells. Haste is the most commonly cast buff I have seen even in PFS where groups in consistent.
other examples could be bless or prayer or a bards inspiring courage. Call me crazy but I think it was pretty obvious what he meant.Buffs like Inspire Courage and Bless tend to always apply evenly to the entire group. Their presence, or lack of, tends to have negligible implact on how classes compare towards each other.
Haste applies to the whole party...
Long story short, this thread is comparing single classes on their single merit there is no benefit what so ever to assuming they have haste applied to every class even if they can't do it themselves. In fact it damages the validity as it heavily favours a fighter over a monk and a monk over a war priest etc.
I see no reason why you'd add it to a test of individual classes as standard.
You could make every class in the test that couldn't have without items buy boots of speed and take the hit in other areas of their spending. But again that would favour a fighter over a monk then you have to work out which items are optimal for each individual build. Then suddenly you have a job on.
Standard equipment and only in class abilities is the simplest most logical way of comparing single classes to one another that I can think of.
To be fair, to assume haste, one only has to assume someone in the party has it. It affects multiple targets after all.
right, but for many tables haste or BoF isn't a given.
For many tables haste or BoF is cast every fight r1 from the +20 init wizard.
So it's true, a non-"divine power" casting class could probably do better by lowering their weapon and getting boots of haste. but my goal wasn't to do a complete maximized DPR comparison, but a quick snapshot of a quite DPR optimized comparison. For quick comparison for DPR you can just add the damage an arrow does to the total DPR to get close enough to see how haste changes things.
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right, but for many tables haste or BoF isn't a given.
For many tables haste or BoF is cast every fight r1 from the +20 init wizard.
A bit of a tangent but it is really weak for a high level Wizard to cast Haste at the beginning of every fight. He should be neutralizing the threat before the threat has a chance to neutralize him.
In recreational encounters it is acceptable to cast Haste and sit back and eat popcorn while the martials mop up.
right, but for many tables haste or BoF isn't a given.
For many tables haste or BoF is cast every fight r1 from the +20 init wizard.
A bit of a tangent but it is really weak for a high level Wizard to cast Haste at the beginning of every fight. He should be neutralizing the threat before the threat has a chance to neutralize him.
In recreational encounters it is acceptable to cast Haste and sit back and eat popcorn while the martials mop up.
Yes but there are bards, summoners, magi, skalds, people with wands, and other class abilities as well. High level wizards aren't the only source of haste and its a staple buff for martials, particularly archery martials.
In recreational encounters it is acceptable to cast Haste and sit back and eat popcorn while the martials mop up.
Lovin it! Anyways looks like this thread has advanced to the popcorn stage as well...
Woah hey guys all I said was "most often then not".
It was obvioulsy meant to reflect a personal experience that, in most important fight I've been in, either Haste or Blessing of fervor was involved.
I don't think that's a rare tactic, given the love that these spells get here in the advice forums and in most guides I've read.
My group is probably not the only one that favors group buffs over personal buffs whenever possible.
I said that just so that people reading this post and trying to build the best archer possible will knowingly chose an archer that reflect their parties tactics.
TL:DR: if your party often casts Haste/Blessing of fervor, your monks archer will do better then you'd expect if you only read the DPS raw results.
The assumption that haste will always be on is mistaken particularly comparing single class DPR as other classes like war priests and their own buffs which don't stack so assuming it's on is actually kind of a nerf to those classes in these comparisons as it gives one of their main advantages away.
I don't think it's mistaken to include both hasted & non-hasted DPR in the analysis. Haste is a low-level and common enough buff that for a lot of players it makes sense to factor it into the DPR analysis; if I'm trying to determine which archer to play and I know one of the other players is playing a wizard or sorcerer who will be casting haste in most fights it makes sense to consider how haste impacts the various classes.
The assumption that haste will always be on is mistaken particularly comparing single class DPR as other classes like war priests and their own buffs which don't stack so assuming it's on is actually kind of a nerf to those classes in these comparisons as it gives one of their main advantages away.I don't think it's mistaken to include both hasted & non-hasted DPR in the analysis. Haste is a low-level and common enough buff that for a lot of players it makes sense to factor it into the DPR analysis; if I'm trying to determine which archer to play and I know one of the other players is playing a wizard or sorcerer who will be casting haste in most fights it makes sense to consider how haste impacts the various classes.
This is true.
When discussing DPR of multiple builds I usually use a spreadsheet to calculate. Adding in an extra calculation for an additional attack via haste isn't that hard to do.
However, it is possible to not think about doing it.
Usually whenever I do DPR comparisons I do so based only on what my character can do. If I know I'm comparing a class that can self buff, they usually have a lot going for them beyond buffing for DPR that strongly influences my final decision anyways.
Then again, I'm also hugely a fan of 6th level progression casting classes with a good number of skill points, and the martial skills to do what I want. To that end, Inquisitor is probably my favorite class. Warpriest is really great too, if I don't mind having a character without many skills.
TL:DR: if your party often casts Haste/Blessing of fervor, your monks archer will do better then you'd expect if you only read the DPS raw results.
This is misleading. Monk archers are one of the least benefited by haste. Getting 1 extra attack at +19 for 1d8+19 isn't nearly as big a boost that the inquisitor is getting at +23 for 1d8+2d6+20 (granted this haste attack was already factored into their DPR) or the cavalier's +21 for 1d8+32.
So while true that the monk's DPR will be higher with haste, it increases less than the classes that have harder hitting arrows, thus making the gap between the two even bigger.
I disagree. Original poster hasn't asked "who is the best archer in a vacuum" but "who is the best archer"
By your own calculations, a level 10 divine power user has 4 attacks per round, no matter if haste is cast or not.
At the same level, a Zen archer will have 6 attacks once haste is cast.
That's 2 more attacks at full BAB.
Now I'm no math wizard and maybe 2 more attacks at +19 isn't worth it, but I'd really love to see proof of that.
And, since probably no one here plays solo, I wonder why it is so hard to imagine that the Zen archer couldn't also get some prebuffs cast by his friends. A caster with a zen archer on his team will most probably agree that casting Heroism on him before a fight is indeed great expenditure of his ressources.
But yeah of course, all this makes calculations harder even if, in actual gameplay, it seems pretty legit to me.
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I did the builds and the DPR was crunched. A zen archer was pulling in 100.11 DPR add the hasted attack of about 23 damage if your 19 hits the AC of 25, so lets be nice and say it's adding 20 DPR. Putting the zen archer to 120 DPR with haste, yes this is getting off the 6 attacks.
the chaplain WP starts R1 with 130.12 DPR then goes up R2 to 161.97 and R3 to 175.62. This isn't even factoring in the haste's extra +1 to attack rolls.
Then the cavalier coming it normally at 123.37 DPR (higher than the hasted zen archer) if you add haste gets the extra attack of +21 for 1d8+32. This is higher to hit for about 35 damage so lets say 32, cause we want to be nice for the comparison. Putting the cavalier up to 155 DPR.
So the zen went from 23 behind cavalier before haste to 35 behind after haste.
If you factor in heroism for the monk it's a drain while the inquisitor is providing his own heroism, but also if you add heroism to the monk then you should factor it in for everyone else including the cavalier and they go up too. So yes, a zen archer can get to great DPR with buffs from allies, but it's not winning the race.
Several meaningful points:
- I never said the Zen archer wins. I said he does better with haste than what you said.
- One more time: you keep saying that divine powers users get one more attack when haste is cast.
THEY DON'T, the rules say they dont. But the zen archer DOES. That's just RAW.
Proof here:
Divine Power:
Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. You gain a +1 luck bonus on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skill checks for every three caster levels you have (maximum +6). You also gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level. Whenever you make a full-attack action, you can make an additional attack at your full base attack bonus, plus any appropriate modifiers. This additional attack is not cumulative with similar effects, such as haste or weapons with the speed special ability.
- You also disregarded critical attacks (and possibly perfect strike). Obviously the guy sending 6 arrows/round gets more of them than the one sending 4 arrows, we can probably agree on that.
- Yes sure, Divine archers are self sufficient in terms of buff. That doesn't mean in actual gameplay they do get that much more buffed than other archers. Once again OP hasn't asked who's the best lone archer in a vacuum.
So once again, by your own calculations, the zen archer now reaches something like 120 DPR, almost closing the gap with the cavalier (123) and 10 DPR under the first round of a Chaplain.
If you factor critical hits and perfect strike in, the gap gets even thinner, and the Zen archer possibly gets ahead of the cavalier.
Chaplain is still greatly better at DPR, I'll agree on that.
Now let's talk Saving throws and touch AC! just joking ;)
Oh right for some reason I put him in the category of divine power users, my bad!
I'm gonna shut up now ^_^
Several meaningful points:
- I never said the Zen archer wins. I said he does better with haste than what you said.
Right but saying that the zen archer does a lot better with haste when it gets one of the least benefits and without mentioning that the other do even better with haste can be misleading.
- One more time: you keep saying that divine powers users get one more attack when haste is cast.
THEY DON'T, the rules say they dont. But the zen archer DOES. That's just RAW.
I've never said they do and I've said that they don't.
if you want to assume always having haste then divine power at the level chosen can downgrade to divine favor for same attack boost.
the inquisitor is getting at +23 for 1d8+2d6+20 (granted this haste attack was already factored into their DPR)
the chaplain WP starts R1 with 130.12 DPR then goes up R2 to 161.97 and R3 to 175.62. This isn't even factoring in the haste's extra +1 to attack rolls.
So I don't see why you somehow thought I was saying that haste gave an extra attack to the divine power users. All I said was that they could then use a lower level spell as replacement for divine power, that the haste attack was already factored into the DPR that has been done, and that the get the +1 to attack rolls from haste which isn't factored in.
- You also disregarded critical attacks (and possibly perfect strike). Obviously the guy sending 6 arrows/round gets more of them than the one sending 4 arrows, we can probably agree on that.
Since I didn't actually crunch the DPR I'm not sure if they were factored in or not. But even still, having a harder time to confirm the crits that the zen archer has over the WP that can confirm really easily does somewhat balance out the crit, plus you need to factor that when the WP or cavalier crits it's for way more damage then a zen archer crit. So maybe already factored in, and if not, probably not going to help the zen archer as much as you think.
- Yes sure, Divine archers are self sufficient in terms of buff. That doesn't mean in actual gameplay they do get that much more buffed than other archers. Once again OP hasn't asked who's the best lone archer in a vacuum.
And I never said they should be considered alone in a vacuum. But providing your own buffs is a factor on the character, and one that might make them more desirable if there aren't buffing characters in their party.
And again, since this seems to be getting ignored. I've never said that the highest DPR is the best archer. I didn't do all these builds to show that one class was the best. Someone asked to see a comparison of lots of different classes DPR to get a comparison on that. So that's what I made, a bunch of classes that were as similar as I could get to compare DPR against each other.
So once again, by your own calculations, the zen archer now reaches something like 120 DPR, almost closing the gap with the cavalier (123) and 10 DPR under the first round of a Chaplain.
If you factor critical hits and perfect strike in, the gap gets even thinner, and the Zen archer possibly gets ahead of the cavalier.
And as I mentioned, your hasted zen archer is closing the gap on the non-hasted cavalier. But then you should assume the cavalier is getting haste too putting his DPR around 155, or 35 higher than the hasted zen archer, making the zen archer further behind the cavalier. The DPR guy said that perfect strike was adding about 6DPR when used properly, not sure if that's true, but that's not that big of a boost to damage. So that puts the cavalier about 30DPR ahead if perfect strike wasn't already factored in. And being 10 behind the WP R1 and then like 30 behind round 2+ isn't getting the zen close in DPR. And the crits, I feel are going to be more of a wash if they aren't already factored in, having sightly more crits for about half damage as the other crits I don't think will raise your DPR more than it raises their's, again, if not already factored in, which a correct DPR calculation should already be factoring in crits.
Chaplain is still greatly better at DPR, I'll agree on that.
Now let's talk Saving throws and touch AC! just joking ;)
So in summary, you really should get your facts straight. Debating is good, but accusing me of saying stuff I never did is slander.
- One more time: you keep saying that divine powers users get one more attack when haste is cast.
THEY DON'T, the rules say they dont. But the zen archer DOES. That's just RAW.
I don't think he ever said that haste stacked with blessing of fervor or divine power. Not sure where you're getting that from.
Chess Pwn, nevermind me really, it all started by me convincing myself the cavalier used divine power, for a reason I couldn't explain!
Therefore I was wrong and you are right.
I don't think he ever said that haste stacked with blessing of fervor or divine power. Not sure where you're getting that from.
- One more time: you keep saying that divine powers users get one more attack when haste is cast.
THEY DON'T, the rules say they dont. But the zen archer DOES. That's just RAW.
He didn't, I was the one reading the whole thing wrong.
Sohei archers (who can stack Rapid Shot and Flurry) and "Bowbarians" (search messagebase) throw out wicked damage, and very early. Bard/paladin multiclasses can really dish it out, too.
Sohei compared quite well, but they ramp up slowly. You need lots of feats AND the gloves of dueling to make having all those shots worth shooting. But yes, a strong DPR builds for double digit levels.
The bowbarian build ended up doing quite poorly in the DPR comparisons. I personally thought that it would have been higher.
Also, to mention since it was debated. The DPR listings DO factor in crits. Only the fighter and the monks picked up improved crit for the DPR calculation, which is right since most of the builds couldn't fit it in.
Bowbarian tends to have a trick up his sleeve which you didn't include. Scent Rage power + Pheromone arrows.
Still that's only a +2/+2 after the first hit so it prolly doesn't make it stellar in the grand scheme of things.
The Bowbarian is prolly ahead of other builds early on due to the massive to hit bonuses it gets from rage and reckless abandon. But these bonuses don't scale as well as other classes (or lack the item support). Thus at level 10 it looks lackluster as it has no major damage boosters. As of Villain Codex Barbarians are actually better of being throwers thanks to a number of nifty new rage powers.
right, but for many tables haste or BoF isn't a given.
For many tables haste or BoF is cast every fight r1 from the +20 init wizard.
<--- plays a +24 init magus. Always memorizes Haste.