IF one side is looking to invade the other, than only one side has security that needs to be suborned.Hence the high security on both sides. In a world with telepathy and zine of truth I suspect it'd be easier to find loyal minions.On the other hand, one bit of treachery in the right place, and you've got major Trojan Horse action on the city.I know you wanted to start with Cantrips, but my favorite world changer is teleportation circle. it's even permanency-able.
Relatively inexpensive and will pay for itself if you charge a small fee per traveler. I imagine it would be limited to major cities with the arrival point heavily guarded. Like airports, but without planes. Probably also with loyal agents on the departure side with some mechanism to destroy the circle should the need arise. See an army coming? Destroy the circle and teleport away. Or even some explosive device with a one round delay. they could use the circle itself. I digress. There would obviously be good security and a backup plan, but you get the idea.
Small expensive goods would probably travel this way, not to mention individuals on vacation. Shall we pop over to Shanghi and visit grandma for the afternoon?
I don't really get what you're saying, but I'll elaborate for clarity.
Country A has security in their embassy in country B where the teleportation circle is. Security is tight and all are guaranteed loyal by mundane and magical means. Further the arrival point is a kill zone manned by country A loyalists.
If country B wants to invade they'll have to simultaneously take out all of the extensive security measures at the country A embassy lest any one of the loyalists destroy the teleportation circle. Processes and plans put in place long ago to make such a thing easy.
Also, even if country B somehow manages to take over the embassy without the circle being destroyed as soon as unauthorized people start coming through the guards in the country A landing zone do their jobs and ahnilate the newcomers with extreme prejudice. If you also wanted to lock it down magically to prevent incursions you could throw up any number of spells that prevent teleportation in an area.
I just left it at "security precautions," but if you want to get more pedantic I suppose we could.
The combination of the two makes trying to invade via pre-established teleportation circle kinda stupid. It'd be smarter to create a new circle to some undisclosed location in country A and invade that way. There'd be very little way to defend against such a thing.
"My working requirements for magic are intelligence, education, and a patriarchal bias. "
You lost my interest here. But your culture should look very "bad parts" Victorian.
Yeah, agreed. Not an ideal culture by any means, but one that starts off with the realities of our past, and then warps beyond recognition due to the infusion of magic.
To be clear, it's a patriarchal cultural bias, not any biological limitation. Women in this world are equally adept, just given less opportunity to nurture their talents.
I'm really turned off now. Sorry. But you should read Suzette Haden Elgin's Native Tongue about what a group of educated women could do to overthrow such a patriarchy if it became that restrictive. I foresee secret wizard academies for upper-class women teaching their daughters & daughters-in-law...
Still, before I go, I want to take a look at your bell curve. There's more than enough Int sloshing around for society to be abounding in magic tricks, is what I see. 50% of the pop have enough smarts to cast cantrips, and 16% to cast 1st-level spells. Do you think thieves won't have their own academies? Especially if you don't remove Minor & Major Magic Talent from the rogue talent list.
Also, is this going to be a human-only society? Or will there be (non-roguish) elves and gnomes able to take Arcane Talent (besides benefiting from Gnome Magic)?
It's really when you get to 2nd-level or higher spells that you start defining power in your society. However, if you don't put enough turnips into the stew as the 34% cantrips, and enough meat as the 14% 1st-level spells, adding the onions & carrots in the form of your 2% 2nd-levels is going to create a watery, thinly-flavored broth that no one would drink. {Edited to fix numbers. oops}
One final note: if your players are going to have to play white male humans if they want any liberty at all, do you know a tableful that will go along with this?
If you are using the Wizards list as a base and building from there I have not seen one school mentioned. Necormancy. If those types of spells are used then the concept of war dramatically changes. Right along with the trauma suffered there.
In the case of widely used necormancy then the skill in magic would be commonly sought in most of the military personnel. Since divine magic does not exist there are only physical means to rekill the undead.
Though in the cantrips there is the wonderful disrupt undead spell.
In the more demented bent the spell arcane mark can be used to brand not only items but people with no save. Duels, shunning, and punishment changes with that alone. You get your own scarlet letter, as it were, to wear for a whole month. Right on your forehead. Another way to brand someone.
In the first level spell arena. The alarm spell would be very useful. No more pesky assassins without forewarning.
Keep watch means you are always under watchful and awake eyes. This would also be where some of the time to study would happen. It says you cannot do vigorous activity. But casters can prepare their spells so they could learn more in this time as well.
Any of the summon spells, especially the late level ones would be game changers. Depending on the types of creatures that could be summoned. Though if those spells are used you should decide if the spells summon something living that you must negotiate with and that can die or if it is a mindless corporeal specter of the creature.
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So with 695 Decanters of Endless Water you could supply the city of Rome with all the water it needs?you could replace one aquaduct. I think rome had at least 7.
That would cost 6 million gold pieces. And be far more prone to theft than a bunch of rocks. But more secure against siege. So there's more than enough reason to have both.
Ah, yes, that would make it unfeasible to irrigate Rome with magic alone. Still only one decanter per 90-100 people (using wiki's low population estimate of 450,000) which is considerably better than my worst-case estimate of one decanter per 20.
And as Daw suggested, for my desert city I've introduced a version of the decanter that's immobile but cheaper, based on the wondrous architecture in the 3E Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. Makes theft less of a problem.
Even if you're approximating the real world, the assumption that only men would be educated enough to be wizards is wrong. There were many opportunities for upper-class women to gain an education. See here or here for more details.
And I was about to post to this thread 'well, for starters, trying to teach magic to women or peasants would be punishable by death'.
IRL, slaveowners were afraid to let slaves READ. Now imagine the Lower Orders or those silly women being able to cast SPELLS. Can you imagine the fear that would put in the hearts of the ruling class?
Of course, such a prohibition probably wouldn't last forever, but when it collapsed, it would be Messy.
BTW, how powerful can wizards get through sheer book-learning? Because I'm thinking if it's possible to hit the higher levels through sheer studying, Geas has the potential to create an unbreakable dystopian caste system.
Yes, I have a dim view of human nature. It comes from reading history.
But history is not that devoid of women obtaining powerful positions similar to those of men. Abesses had a lot of power - almost as much as an abbot or bishop. Female noblewomen could run the same lands as a man. Female doctors, merchants, and artisans were not unheard of.
Granted many of these noblewomen were regents for an absent husband or brother, or a young son. And many of those artisans were widows taking over their husbands' business. And certainly those women were routinely overlooked by history, or vilified if they were too uppity. But female power is limited, not banned. The patriarchy is robust - a few powerful women won't tear it down. The only Chinese Empress tried, but her reforms didn't survive her death and she was not remembered kindly.
It helps that women tend to be invested in the success of their male relatives. That makes them natural allies of upper-class men trying to protect their power from other upper-class men, or from common revolt. Women are not likely to risk their sons' inheritance for a little more personal power, or to bristle at being second-class citizens when the third estate is tearing down the Bastille.
What I think is likely in a patriarchy is that certain kinds of magic would be considered feminine, likely abjuration and divination, and that women would be expected to study those rather than schools that might put them in direct conflict with men, such as evocation.
Rome was also using a lot of water for bathing. For drinking they had wells or aquaduct water, if the aquaduct had a good source.
"My working requirements for magic are intelligence, education, and a patriarchal bias. "
You lost my interest here. But your culture should look very "bad parts" Victorian.
Yeah, agreed. Not an ideal culture by any means, but one that starts off with the realities of our past, and then warps beyond recognition due to the infusion of magic.
To be clear, it's a patriarchal cultural bias, not any biological limitation. Women in this world are equally adept, just given less opportunity to nurture their talents.
I'm really turned off now. Sorry. But you should read Suzette Haden Elgin's Native Tongue about what a group of educated women could do to overthrow such a patriarchy if it became that restrictive. I foresee secret wizard academies for upper-class women teaching their daughters & daughters-in-law...
Still, before I go, I want to take a look at your bell curve. There's more than enough Int sloshing around for society to be abounding in magic tricks, is what I see. 50% of the pop have enough smarts to cast cantrips, and 16% to cast 1st-level spells. Do you think thieves won't have their own academies? Especially if you don't remove Minor & Major Magic Talent from the rogue talent list.
Also, is this going to be a human-only society? Or will there be (non-roguish) elves and gnomes able to take Arcane Talent (besides benefiting from Gnome Magic)?
It's really when you get to 2nd-level or higher spells that you start defining power in your society. However, if you don't put enough turnips into the stew as the 34% cantrips, and enough meat as the 14% 1st-level spells, adding the onions & carrots in the form of your 2% 2nd-levels is going to create a watery, thinly-flavored broth that no one would drink. {Edited to fix numbers. oops}
One final note: if your players are going to have to play white male humans if they want any liberty at all, do you...
Um, let me clarify a little further. I said bias, not complete limitation. Thus I fully intend there to be all sorts of variety and complexities. But a bias indicates that it's not a level playing field, as I think the past shows. I have absolutely no intention of limiting or restricting anything - I'm just trying to start from something based on our medieval times, where such biases existed.
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I think many of you are missing the point of this thread. It is not to argue whether having a male only wizard society is likely or not, it is to see whether the existence of magic would support such a society, and what changes are inevitable once society adapts to the existence of magic.
For my part, I think the existence of the Light spell would have far reaching consequences. Someone has already touched on this by pointing out that the existence of shift work is entirely dependant on light, so I can see eldritch devices powered by working individuals around the clock becoming part of the world.
But that just scratches the surface of what access to light does; I am sitting at home typing on my computer as I do most nights because I have access to light. Much of my leisure time exists because I have access to light. I have time to read, write and relax because I have access to light. Maybe our pseudo mediaeval society starts off with only the rich, educated men able to learn spellcasting (as the only ones with the time and means to get an education), but once light becomes available it will inevitably lead to reading and reading will lead to education; what will a self-educated mass society learn about? magic of course!
Mending will also have a profound effect on society. NO longer will you have to call for a repairman, now you can do it yourself instantaneously. I am too tired right now to think seriously about it, but I am sure someone can see the implications of such a spell
Geas is permanent/until finished if it's something they can theoretically complete.at One day per level geas probably won't let you mind chip your barony. They'll stay in line longer if you fireball one of their huts.Huh, I'd thought Geas was permanent. Shows what I know.
Looks like it was 'until finished' in AD&D, that might be what I was remembering.
The geased creature must follow the given instructions until the geas is completed, no matter how long it takes.
If the instructions involve some open-ended task that the recipient cannot complete through his own actions, the spell remains in effect for a maximum of 1 day per caster level.
"Break this mountain into rubble with this pick" is a valid forever command (until the pick breaks), but "do not leave this mansion" is a day/level duration.
"Break this mountain into rubble with this pick" is a valid forever command (until the pick breaks), but "do not leave this mansion" is a day/level duration.
But not particularly useful for an evil overlord, except perhaps for punishment. If it was permanant for everything you'd have a baptism ceremony and "serve me faithfully and truly" on every peasant
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I think many of you are missing the point of this thread. It is not to argue whether having a male only wizard society is likely or not, it is to see whether the existence of magic would support such a society, and what changes are inevitable once society adapts to the existence of magic.
Maybe, but I'm happy to point all the same to point out to the OP the disadvantages of such a pursuit when courting 21st-century gamers to the table. And in limiting one's thought so, actually.
You can't isolate sociology from history. And European history is based on wholesale gender warfare in the Renaissance -- the witchcraft trials. If you're writing your own alternate history, why adopt this ugly phase? Especially when the result ends up excluding a lot of character concepts?
So let me propose a brief alternate history that the OP could base his thought experiment in sociology on...
Well, the conversions, generally at the point of a sword, would have gone differently, I'm thinking. But we'll ignore that. In the history I'm suggesting, they succeeded. And Christianity began co-opting Pagan elements left and right, as they in fact did. (Check out the history of Christmas for a prime example.) What do they do with true witches?
Clap them into nunneries, of course!
So now you have centers where women are the educated and healers. But that doesn't get babies birthed. So there's going to be the kind of orders we're familiar with in this century as well as the truly cloistered sort -- orders that put small numbers of women into tiny "convents" attached to churches of any size at all. Orders that have those nuns going out during the day (and in fact night) to minister to people. Or maybe birthing hospitals would have grown up, where women would go to the convent when they thought they were ready to give birth.
Herbalism would be preserved in this culture; alchemy would flourish; the ugly witchcraft trials would never have occurred. Isn't this a better culture to spend time imagining?
I'll tell you this much: If (male) priests really did decide to grab power away from the (female) midwives during the Renaissance when witchcraft was effective, those trials would have gone very, very differently!
But we're not going there. We're assuming that witchcraft -- not the baby-eating hexes, no, the Hedgewitchery and the wisdom -- survives safely taught in Christian nunneries. And now Aristotelian thought reaches western Christendom. Priests begin to study wizardry, which also works. What happens?
I love the idea Weirdo had, that in the end certain school specializations would end up considered "women's work" and others "male prerogative." I'll tell you that the women's schools will end up denigrated as simple and less useful. (Check out how powerful secretaries used to be considered, when men held the position.) But still, women who want to cast magic now have the broader option of wizardry when they go to a nunnery for education and magical study.
Witchcraft with its hexes gets quietly shuffled away as evil, perhaps -- certainly old-fashioned.
You still have a society based on wizardry. What happens? is still a valid question. But now you have educated nuns as well as priests. As society becomes more educated in general, it becomes obvious that one must educate one's daughters every bit as much as one's sons. Maybe more so, because the sons have to spend time learning martial prowess, while the daughters can be clapped up in the schoolroom.
You could, in fact, in the end have a society where men do the Evocation, yes. (And Necromancy, although I have to believe that the Christian church would ban that school and it would be taught only in secret by the "evil.") But the other schools? That's women's work. Men do the heavy lifting with their swords and brawn, don't you know.
All the same, a man can't be safely encouraged to beat his wife and his children if his wife can transmute him. Or divine his secrets. Or simply protect herself and the kids.
The biggest effect of genuine magic on society might be an end to patriarchalism centuries earlier, thank G*d.
Been watching an Animated series recently involving a version of WW1 where Mages are a part of the setting.
Orphans are tested for magical ability at a young age and conscripted into the military.
Mages on the battlefield are largely used in a scout capacity, pinpointing targets for Artillery. These are countered by enemy mage squads specifically sent to hunt scouts.
Powerful mages can rain death from above into the trenches.
Some Mage units are used for rescue missions, fly in, grab survivors and fly out.
Pathfinder wise it's got heavy use of the Spellslinger Archetype
The subject has been explored quite frequently... the most famous example is the Tippyverse which shows how exploitative use of rules text. i.e. create food/water traps, can fundamentally distort and rebuild gameworld assumptions. (just Google the term to find out more.)
On the other hand those of us who favor the meme "magic has its price" will generally write stories in which overuse of magic causes a civilization-ending cataclysm, either loudly Atlantis style, or quietly through a "death of magic" scenario.
So let me propose a brief alternate history that the OP could base his thought experiment in sociology on...** spoiler omitted **...
This is great stuff. It's the direction I want to go, Just because I'm starting with a status quo base, doesn't mean I won't deviate wildly from it once I start introducing magic.
For example, the fact that any reasonably intelligent woman could cast Acid Splash suddenly means that bothering a woman now comes with a potential for having your face melted off. Right there that sends huge ripples through society, and it's a very minor detail.
Thanks for your input and thoughts, they're really appreciated.
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I think many of you are missing the point of this thread. It is not to argue whether having a male only wizard society is likely or not, it is to see whether the existence of magic would support such a society, and what changes are inevitable once society adapts to the existence of magic.
For my part, I think the existence of the Light spell would have far reaching consequences. Someone has already touched on this by pointing out that the existence of shift work is entirely dependant on light, so I can see eldritch devices powered by working individuals around the clock becoming part of the world.
But that just scratches the surface of what access to light does; I am sitting at home typing on my computer as I do most nights because I have access to light. Much of my leisure time exists because I have access to light. I have time to read, write and relax because I have access to light. Maybe our pseudo mediaeval society starts off with only the rich, educated men able to learn spellcasting (as the only ones with the time and means to get an education), but once light becomes available it will inevitably lead to reading and reading will lead to education; what will a self-educated mass society learn about? magic of course!
The issue is that "only men have the time and means to get an education" is a historically inaccurate starting point for a medieval society.
If you want to figure out how magic will change things, you need to start from the assumption that women are also able to get an education (maybe not at the same rate as men, but certainly not only if they are in the top percentile of intelligence).
You could certainly argue that society would see magical education as particularly dangerous and restrict it more than other forms of education. But having an oversimplified view of history does not help you to make more accurate Alternative History.
Been watching an Animated series recently involving a version of WW1 where Mages are a part of the setting.
Orphans are tested for magical ability at a young age and conscripted into the military.
Mages on the battlefield are largely used in a scout capacity, pinpointing targets for Artillery. These are countered by enemy mage squads specifically sent to hunt scouts.Powerful mages can rain death from above into the trenches.
Some Mage units are used for rescue missions, fly in, grab survivors and fly out.
Pathfinder wise it's got heavy use of the Spellslinger Archetype
What series?
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The issue is that "only men have the time and means to get an education" is a historically inaccurate starting point for a medieval society.
If you want to figure out how magic will change things, you need to start from the assumption that women are also able to get an education (maybe not at the same rate as men, but certainly not only if they are in the top percentile of intelligence).
You could certainly argue that society would see magical education as particularly dangerous and restrict it more than other forms of education. But having an oversimplified view of history does not help you to make more accurate Alternative History.
My apologies, I had no intention of suggesting that women had no access to education; I was merely paraphrasing the starting assumptions the OP had made for his society to show what difference magic makes. The actual starting assumptions are irrelevant as magic will move societies in the same direction regardless of their starting position; it's not where we start, its where we end that matters.
You have to remember that gaslight (and even candlelight) has been around for hundreds of years, yet it's impact on education was minimal; simply because it is possible to find time to get an education does not mean that you will definitely get an education. For that you need Social change on an unprecedented scale, as championed by the Victorians. Yet it only takes one society to do that to get an appreciable edge over other societies that will end up changing the world. Westernization was desirable because of the edge such a country would have over non-westernized countries; witness the successful westernization of Japan during the Meiji restoration and it's subsequent rise as a major power in the Far east.
But we are getting off topic...which is the impact magic has on societies, not the impact of westernization.
So...assuming that 50% of the world have mending, you no longer have need of artisans to mend stuff - everyone will either be able to mend stuff themselves or they will know someone who can. Paradoxically there will be more money for purchasing craftwork in the first place, and it will last longer once purchased, so people will be slightly richer. I expect more money would be available for luxury items.
This is assuming that you can get mending for free (either from yourself, or from a friend). If we assume that it costs the standard price (caster level x spell level x10gp), we get a cost of 5gp, making it worthwhile only on items that are worth more than 5gp more when mended, so you would not use it on a mug (3cp iirc), but it would be used on tool sets, jewellery, etc.) The economic model suggested by this is untenable, since a sorcerer with this spell can cast it all day long, earning 50gp/minute; 300gp per hour - and that's a first level character. (I know, there are some blatant assumptions there that simply would not be, but you get the point). The Economy would quickly be skewed between those who do and those who do not; Everyone who cannot cast will be at an economic disadvantage so great that it can only be offset by learning to cast. 50% have enough intelligence to become wizards, 50% have enough charisma to become sorcerors, so 25% would have neither.
If we add in Divine casting; half of those non-casters would be able to cast divine, so 12.5% of the population would be at an economic disadvantage; that's still a sizeable minority and I imagine there would be resentment.
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Actually, sorcerers would be rarer than they would seem, because of something we tend to overlook: not everyone can be a sorcerer. A 20 Charisma does not allow someone to manifest sorcery, because it is based on bloodline. If you include sorcerers, you need to figure out how much potential/bloodline align with the charisma to make it work. Actually, that's an interesting prospect. What happens when someone has a sorcerous bloodline, but doesn't have the Charisma to cast? You get a group of people with strange powers, but no spellcasting. I'll go through the bloodlines to see what first level bloodline powers would have any effect.
Another thing to consider is level. Paizo once mentioned that an Olympic athlete would be 4th level, which means that if you follow that, 2nd level spells would be rare, and 3rd level spells extremely so.
What series?Been watching an Animated series recently involving a version of WW1 where Mages are a part of the setting.
Orphans are tested for magical ability at a young age and conscripted into the military.
Mages on the battlefield are largely used in a scout capacity, pinpointing targets for Artillery. These are countered by enemy mage squads specifically sent to hunt scouts.Powerful mages can rain death from above into the trenches.
Some Mage units are used for rescue missions, fly in, grab survivors and fly out.
Pathfinder wise it's got heavy use of the Spellslinger Archetype
Youjo Senki. I do recommend. I recommend watching episode 2, 1 then 3. While that's confusing... Episode 1 gives a very different impression than episodes 2 onward and essentially starts in the middle of the volume 1.
Historically, wouldn't the TYPE of education vary dramatically between the genders?
You really can't base economic assumption on PF pricing. Constant pricing that ignores supply and demand doesn't make any world building sense.
That was kind of the point I was making.
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The issue is that "only men have the time and means to get an education" is a historically inaccurate starting point for a medieval society.Right. It's only noble men. And monks.
And noble women. And nuns.
What happens when someone has a sorcerous bloodline, but doesn't have the Charisma to cast? You get a group of people with strange powers, but no spellcasting.
You might also get Bloodragers. Though I think bloodlines are unlikely in OP's scenario, at least at first, since they involve exposure to magical forces that don't exist either at all (eg dragons) or without magic developing enough to introduce them (eg outsiders).
The issue is that "only men have the time and means to get an education" is a historically inaccurate starting point for a medieval society.Right. It's only noble men. And monks.
Maybe if you're unlucky enough to be in the stinking ye old UK. If you were in other parts of the world, the mediterranean, the middle east, india, china or south asia then you were much happier and had far more options.
The Roman idea of public discourse went everywhere in the world. It's use and function varied based on your location, family unit and cultural norms but generally learning to read and write was taken quite seriously and was taught either by religious organizations as charity or by secular tutoring for a bit of coin. Also your local food really determined your outlook:
Europe had boiled turnips and beer
Everywhere else had coffee, tea, sugar and spice
People saw the benefits of general education, also public bath houses- which of course backwards prude europe ignored, hence the 'stinking'.
So extremely bad B.O, beer swilling turnip munching euros were not very prone to the idea of education; this is why the Renaissance was so huge because it changed all those bad habits and poor diets; instantly modernizing society (relatively speaking).
But all this dumb history aside, this is fantasy. Let's imagine it the way we want to, not the way we have to. Magic would be a massive impetus and would reshape the world in unthinkable fashions.
Depending on how far back magic became a thing, even the patriarchal bias has to be questioned. If Stone Age hunter-gatherers had access to cantrips, you aren't leaving your daughter out of the hunt just because she lacks a penis if she also happens to be your family's sole caster. Mending and create water could literally mean the difference between life and death, and could certainly make enough of a difference that no one would care about an ultimately tiny thing like genitals.
Stabilize alone, assuming it works with birth related complications, would upend the assumptions that women are inherently more fragile than men.
Someone up thread said that magic, not gender, has to be real divisor in society, and they nailed it. Although I also like the contributions of witch-nuns and certain schools of magic being women's work instead of men's. I'm not sure how accurate that might be, but it sounds reasonable. But if, from the very beginning of society, women were inherently equal to men in the one thing that really matters in the world, magic, then how likely are those ideas to even take root?
One thing though: a spell to tell the parents of a child would absolutely have been researched. And it would be interesting to see what level of spell it would require, and how its availablity would affect the concepts of marriage and progeny.
<lots of interesting ideas snipped for length, sorry>Along with all sorts of fertility & contraception magic. Something like the modern ability to do family planning would be a huge change - affecting everything about society from then on.
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I admit I haven't created the product that men would crave. A 3.5 GM pointed out that there's one product that dominates spam (if you don't have filters). And magazine ads before that. And it's not a new focus, he claimed -- it may well go back to (historical) alchemy and before.
Really, just how many alchemical items and spells would charlatans and the honest alike create guaranteed to make it bigger?
And then there's stuff like the "pheromones" I've seen advertised (our version of mumbo-jumbo) that are guaranteed (money back) to make women swoon. Really!
** spoiler omitted **<lots of interesting ideas snipped for length, sorry>Along with all sorts of fertility & contraception magic. Something like the modern ability to do family planning would be a huge change - affecting everything about society from then on.
We are still in the process of wiping species off of the Earth for the hope of the procreatively desperate. I like the nuns. If magic had been working all along, I doubt Rome would have wiped out the Druids, at least until the Bells of Christendom drove back the Fey.