| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
People seem to have a misconception that firearms are good. They're not. In fact, they're one of the worst weapon classes in the game. People also seem to over value how strong hitting touch AC is (hint: it's not).
Lord knows why anyone would play Gunslinger past, like, level 5. If anything, I'd like to see firearms get tweaked (there's an endless amount of gun houserules. It's probably the most houseruled thing out there, next to magic) and the Gunslinger get done away with. More to the point: your houserules aren't good and I wouldn't want to play a gunslinger using them.
Seeing a 9th level gunslinger gun down a 18cr lich in one round in pathfinder society play made me dislike the class even more.
I feel like this probably didn't happen but I'm willing to keep an open mind.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Gunslingers really aren't that great. They're very very specialized fighters and are outclassed by a lot of other ranged builds. They exist to make firearms not suck and they do an okay job of it.
Heck they've steadily been getting nerfed too. They can't even ignore misfires at 11 anymore.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Seeing a 9th level gunslinger gun down a 18cr lich in one round in pathfinder society play made me dislike the class even more.I feel like this probably didn't happen but I'm willing to keep an open mind.
It might have, in the bad old days of dual wield double barrel weapon cord pistolero exploitation.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The semi-mythic* pistolaro in our 'Wrath of the Righteous' campaign is level 9 and has +11 to hit / 1d6+16 damage: Last level, he obliterated a Vrock before anyone else (including the Vrock) had a chance to go (4 touch attacks against a flat footed large target, two of which crit for 4x damage). Admittedly, we are playing a bit loose with the loading rules but there are so many cheesey ways around it that we just hand-waved the 'you need a free hand to reload' so he could dual-wield instead of taking 'rapid shot'. Played RAW, he'd have another +2 to hit (-2 for rapid shot instead of -4 for dual wielding) but only three attacks instead of four.
So yeah, Gunslingers can do very reliable damage, and when they crit, things tend to die very quickly...
*We're getting bonus 'normal' feats instead of mythic feats, and basically none of the mythic powers or spells. Our largest use of mythic points so far is the ability to take an additional move action for 1.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So yeah, Gunslingers can do very reliable damage, and when they crit, things tend to die very quickly...
Two nat 20's to crit in a round is the definition of unreliable.
I don't hate them. I just don't think they belong in my campaign. I *MIGHT* allow guns in the next campaign I run, but not the Gunslinger class. I'll just make them a separate weapon category along with Simple, Martial, and Exotic. That is, IF I use them.
|
|
So yeah, Gunslingers can do very reliable damage, and when they crit, things tend to die very quickly...Two nat 20's to crit in a round is the definition of unreliable.
3 or 4 shots per round, threatening on a 19-20 (Improved Critical feat) means you should get a crit threat every third round or so on average, and going against touch AC means you are almost certain to confirm against most targets. You can't exactly guarantee a crit when you want one, but I would hesitate call them 'unreliable'.
That being said, Gunslingers are 'reliable' in that they rarely miss, even while using deadly aim. Removing Armor and Natural Armor from the equation means most targets are easy, and having a high dexterity increases your chances of going first and removing your target's dexterity from the equation on the first round as well. When our WotR campaign started, the GS was quickly noted to 'always hit, but do little damage': Once we got to 5th level and he started adding Dex to dmg, that changed to 'always hit, and often killed the target.' Of course, mileage will vary depending on encounters: our GS actually missed all four shots a session or two ago against an incorporeal boss (poor rolls vs. an actual 20+ touch AC).
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Level 9 Gunslinger vs CR 9 Vrock...not seeing the issue, there should have been one of those for each of you.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
So yeah, Gunslingers can do very reliable damage, and when they crit, things tend to die very quickly...Two nat 20's to crit in a round is the definition of unreliable.3 or 4 shots per round, threatening on a 19-20 (Improved Critical feat) means you should get a crit threat every third round or so on average, and going against touch AC means you are almost certain to confirm against most targets. You can't exactly guarantee a crit when you want one, but I would hesitate call them 'unreliable'.
That being said, Gunslingers are 'reliable' in that they rarely miss, even while using deadly aim. Removing Armor and Natural Armor from the equation means most targets are easy, and having a high dexterity increases your chances of going first and removing your target's dexterity from the equation on the first round as well. When our WotR campaign started, the GS was quickly noted to 'always hit, but do little damage': Once we got to 5th level and he started adding Dex to dmg, that changed to 'always hit, and often killed the target.' Of course, mileage will vary depending on encounters: our GS actually missed all four shots a session or two ago against an incorporeal boss (poor rolls vs. an actual 20+ touch AC).
Being able to hit frequently is one of their two only advantages, and is arguably a double-edged sword. Remember that you only get the Touch AC ability when you're within the first range increment (so 20-40 ft), meaning that anything that you don't kill is probably going to saunter up to you on its turn and introduce itself. Boohoo Gunslinger can hit a Dragon easily, but in the extremely likely event that they don't kill it they are now 20 ft away from a (in all likelihood) mildly upset dragon, which is never a good place to be. Plus, splash weapons (alchemist bombs) and a good half of evocation spells hit Touch AC and you don't exactly see pitchforks and torches handed out over those.
You also have to blindly ignore the other drawbacks to the class: Deeds and Grit have been steadily getting nerfed to the point that they're mostly useless, with a handful being situationally useful.
They have no built-in damage/accuracy boosters in their class; Fighters have weapon training, Rangers have Favored Enemy, Barbarians have Rage. Gunslingers have nothing (inb4 Gun Training. Tons of builds can get a statistic to damage either naturally or by picking up a Composite Longbow. +Dex isn't impressive).
Their guns are also horrendously expensive to own and operate, even with Gunsmithing. Putting aside that the firearms are hilariously overpriced, even with crafting each shot is costing the Gunslinger 1.1 gp. God forbid you want to reload as a free action and have to use Alchemical Cartridges, because then you're paying 6 freaking gold everytime you pull the trigger. Metaphorically you may as well beat someone to death with a dirty sock filled with gold coins.
Firearms also have no feat support, which also means that the Gunslinger has very, very little build variety. You choose either Pistol or Musket, and take that Archetype (because Pathfinder is game that punishes folks who specialize in multiple weapons so why not?). You then take Deadly Aim, Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, and Gunslinger (and apparently Improved Critical). Don't do these things and you will die, do them and you will be ok but everyone with a bow or a sword is going to be better then you but still complain that you can hit Touch AC sometimes. At least your class gives you a whole 5 bonus feats over the course of 20 levels (too bad theirs nothing cool to spend them on because you don't qualify for half of the ranged combat feats and firearms have maybe a dozen dedicated feats of their own).
The Gunslinger is one of two classes in the game whose core mechanic actively harms them (four if you count the Barbarian and Bloodrager for some reason). Your gun has a 5% chance of blowing up on any given attack, which also gives the Gunslinger the award of the only class that can fumble in the traditional sense, so you're spending a good amount of your resources keeping your own abilities from killing you, or at the very least messing with your action economy.
But hey, at least they can hit sometimes. It's not like other classes can hit things, right?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I don't find it an issue. A new gun mechanic I invented might interest you called Penetration: It seamlessly fits within Pathfinder.
Honestly, it is a nerf, but there is no misfire so not a true nerf. Guns aren't as "godly" for everyone still, but having a better weapon (enhancement) makes it a better gun (like it should be).
Guns: Penetration
Replace misfire and Touch AC mechanic;
Penetration bypasses the combination of armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 2nd increment (however, keep reading). One-handed firearms have a PR of 3, two handed firearms have a PR of 6, but this is ½ outside of 1st increment. Also PR automatically increases based on enhancementx2, so a character with a +5 musket bypasses 16 points of AC from armor, natural armor, and/or shields within 1st increment, but only 8 in 2nd increment.
Broken Condition: Penetration lowered by 4 (minimum 0).
Gunslinger changes:
Deadeye Deed: Same method for extending penetration
Quick Clear: If Firearm gains broken condition, can ignore for 1 minute.
Gun Training: Raises Penetration by 1 every 5 levels.
Alchemy cartridge: Lowers Penetration by 1 or more when used (use misfire value)
Dragon's breath: The nonmagical flame deals 2d6 + BAB points of fire damage to all targets within the cone of the scatter firearm (DC 15 Reflex save half). If you roll a 1 with either of the damage dice, the firearm gains broken condition or explodes if broken.
|
So very early on I determined how to reign in the Gunslinger. I have a simple rule: You may only take a number of free actions in a turn equal to half your character level. While you have cover from all known enemies, reloading a crossbow or firearm does not count toward the limitation on free actions. Also, while you have cover from all enemies, a Gunslinger can concentrate on their shot better reducing their misfire chance by 2.
This has been a really great rule as it forces the Gunslinger to find cover and fire from cover as much as possible. It's led to some really fun and exciting combats as the party tries to think tactically about how to eliminate their foes. This also has the added benefit that the Gunslinger is taking a -4 to all attack rolls. Though as they level up they can reload in the open more and find line of sights to avoid it, or their BAB is high enough to just eat it.
Regardless until level 10 Gunslingers in my game either miss more often or don't fire as much. Which give other players something to do.
Now I should point out, I'm pretty lenient on this rule. I only really snap it into place if I think someone is taking too many actions or I have a character in the game like a Gunslinger. That said, even then, I am more likely to allow the Gunslinger to use all their free actions to reload and then still allow them to say to an ally to move out of the way (or into it). Or shout a one line quip or taunt at the enemy (RP ALWAYS WINS). But I probably wouldn't allow the Gunslinger to fire and then take a 5ft step.
I've found that players find this much fairer than changing how Touch AC or Misfire works. It also boosts cover which should logically be a Gunslinger's friend, yet it comes with HUGE penalties. Adding the bonuses to cover makes it something the Gunslingers want to find a way to do if they can.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I just use my houserules that remove touch attacks. It's better that way.
I just use my houserules that remove touch attacks. It's better that way.
Agreed your rules are some of my favorites, my group loves them
I just use my houserules that remove touch attacks. It's better that way.
While I'm not a fan of removing the penetration effect for non-gunslingers, the fast musket ability from Musket master, etc:
I do like the new firearms you invented like alchemy ones.So why hand cannon instead of Pathfinder's Culverin (yours has better damage, range, but slower firing)?
I'd tweak them to be as part of an attack, as I don't see the balance issue to make it so slow.
Plus, It is weird that alchemist acid in a gun isn't a touch attack (*hint* it lacks touch property).
Your prices are vastly better though.
The last PF campaign I ran had a tiefling pistolero run by a newby. It was pretty effective, but not overwhelmingly so.
I'm also running a 5th Edition campaign where the rogue swashbuckler wields a pistol and dagger. He's fun, but again, not overwhelmingly so.
I just use my houserules that remove touch attacks. It's better that way.Agreed your rules are some of my favorites, my group loves them
Glad to hear!
I just use my houserules that remove touch attacks. It's better that way.While I'm not a fan of removing the penetration effect for non-gunslingers, the fast musket ability from Musket master, etc:
I do like the new firearms you invented like alchemy ones.
So why hand cannon instead of Pathfinder's Culverin (yours has better damage, range, but slower firing)?I'd tweak them to be as part of an attack, as I don't see the balance issue to make it so slow.
Plus, It is weird that alchemist acid in a gun isn't a touch attack (*hint* it lacks touch property).
Your prices are vastly better though.
Hand cannon deals more damage but has slow firing. I considered changing slow-firing so that having the Rapid Shot feat allows you to fire the weapon as an attack action and open up Vital Strike builds.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The biggest drawback to gunslingers (assuming early firearms*) is that they are very good dealing damage, but only at targets that are in the first range increment. And the best range among early firearms is the musket with a 40 ft range increment; best range with pistols is a 20 ft range increment. Also, early firearms are limited to five range increments (you can literally throw a javelin farther than you can shoot an early firearm pistol).
Before someone starts in with the Dead-eye deed, read it again: the cost is one grit point for each additional range increment on each shot. That's a lot of grit to burn through to attack touch AC beyond spitting distance.
The dedicated archer can kill things almost as quickly from much farther away. And a charge/pounce barbarian can probably do comparable damage (plus "target" opponents from farther away, also; charge distance for a barbarian with a 40 ft move speed is up to 80 ft).
Signature Deed got nerfed, it only works once per round now.
2d6*7 is an average of 49 damage. That's pretty piddling at level 9.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
]Last time i checked they could hit always (touch ac)
Patently false. They can hit Touch AC in the first range increment only unless they spend 1 + 1 per range increment grit for each touch attack they want to make.
and with the right feats and deeds reload for free forever
God forbid that a Full BAB class is allowed to full attack
(yeah try reloading a musket at the same speed as drawing an arrow...i would love to see that but anyway... its magic right)
Realism and Pathfinder are outright enemies and classes should never, ever be balanced alongside what a normal human may be able to do. Stop forcing unfair standards on the Gunslinger specifically.
Even if by some miracle they missed, with the right feats they were still doing 2d6 per shot..at around 7 shots a round at 9 level.
As Sundakan already pointed out, 2d6 is barely even worth mentioning as damage. That's only assuming that someone would be able to fit in all of the TWF fighting feats into a Gunslinger at level 9 to actually get 7 attacks a round.
So what got nerfed?
Gungslingers have been bad since the beginning, but most recently Signature Deed was changed to only 1/round, and most of the Gunslingers deeds were made incompatible with Signature Deed on top of that.
They are still downing that lich in round one. It would not have changed that result.
Again, I'm pretty sure this didn't happen.
A Lich has 111 hp. As Sundakan pointed out, 7 attacks at 2d6 wouldn't even bring him below half.
humm you can still hit even if you miss and deal an extra 2d6 or 3d6 per hit.
At the cost of 1 Grit per shot. And half damage if they miss.
Your 9th level character has a 24 Wis? Doubtful. And half of 49 is even more piddling.
If your 9th level Gunslinger DOES have 24 Wis, how bad is his Dex? And Con?
They are still downing that lich in round one. It would not have changed that result.
What, does this lich only have 40 HP? And you act like this is any different than an archer or melee fighter.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
All you need is Bludgeoning and Magic to hurt a lich. A Fighter with a hammer could do the same.
256k damage is frankly b~#%@@&*, you can't do it.
Again, how was his Wis that high in PFS if his Dex was 26?
And again what this comes down to is "The fighter is good at dealing damage". Well, yeah, duh. A Barbarian with an Earthbreaker could have RAGEHAMMERPOUNCED the lich into submission as well with only 1 more level. Ditto an archer with blunt arrows.
The Gunslinger is not special in this regard.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
On top of that, two holy pistols is about 38,000 of a 9th level characters 46,000gp.
Putting that aside, the character had two weapons designed specifically for slaying undead AND started within 20 ft of the enemy AND rolled a crit AND spent 5 or 6 grit. What's the problem?
it did happen pathfinders society play with a 5 star judge. Gunslinger was a Pistolero up close and deadly with 2 holy weapons hasted. dex was around 26 if i recall rapid fire so it was 5 or 6 shots with a +4d6 on each and there was 1 crit in there. Its really not hard at all for that to get to 111 hp. That same judge followed by mapping out how a 12 gunslinger (we were 9th) could average 256k damage a round all touch attacks. It was at that point that the 'hate all gunslingers' issued in my mind until recently. The point is that at 9th level even hurting the lich should have been difficult if not impossible before we started to get hurt. GS killed it before it even got to move.They are still downing that lich in round one. It would not have changed that result.Again, I'm pretty sure this didn't happen.
A Lich has 111 hp. As Sundakan pointed out, 7 attacks at 2d6 wouldn't even bring him below half.
So he was overwealthed, he Crit, and somehow had too much Grit.
Pistolero is an overpowered archetype: don't blame the gunslinger.
it did happen pathfinders society play with a 5 star judge. Gunslinger was a Pistolero up close and deadly with 2 holy weapons hasted. dex was around 26 if i recall rapid fire so it was 5 or 6 shots with a +4d6 on each and there was 1 crit in there. Its really not hard at all for that to get to 111 hp. That same judge followed by mapping out how a 12 gunslinger (we were 9th) could average 256k damage a round all touch attacks. It was at that point that the 'hate all gunslingers' issued in my mind until recently. The point is that at 9th level even hurting the lich should have been difficult if not impossible before we started to get hurt. GS killed it before it even got to move.They are still downing that lich in round one. It would not have changed that result.Again, I'm pretty sure this didn't happen.
A Lich has 111 hp. As Sundakan pointed out, 7 attacks at 2d6 wouldn't even bring him below half.
So he was overwealthed, he Crit, and somehow had too much Grit.
Pistolero is an overpowered archetype: don't blame the gunslinger.
Pistolero isn't even strong anymore now that Up Close and Deadly can't be used with Signature Deed
I can't believe it's 2017 and people exist that don't think touch attacks are all that great.
I can't believe it's 2017 and people exist that don't think touch attacks are all that great.
I can't believe it's 2017 and people exist that don't agree with me.
Welcome to the internet :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
God forbid you want to reload as a free action and have to use Alchemical Cartridges, because then you're paying 6 freaking gold everytime you pull the trigger. Metaphorically you may as well beat someone to death with a dirty sock filled with gold coins.
Yeah but... I always get my gold coins back when I go socking. Unless I roll a 1 and the sock breaks.
To the OP - The Gunslinger and some of the firearms in the game have been changed significantly since their debut. Very significantly:
#1 - using a weapon cord to retrieve a weapon was changed to a Move action (making pistol juggling a bit tougher)
#2 - the Musketeer and Pistolero abilities to completely avoid misfire chances were removed (I think you can still get something similar from a magic gun, but it costs a lot)
#3 - the "double shot" function of double barreled pistols can only be used as a standard action now and no longer flat out doubles your number of attacks per round
#4 - the "Up Close and Deadly" trick was changed
#5 - there were some changes to Signature Deed
Considering those changes,especially #3, the Gunslinger of today seems quite a bit less likely to generate enormous, encounter ending damage before anybody else gets to take a turn/have some fun. That's not to say that targeting touch AC without being impaired by SR or energy resistances couldn't still be useful in a lot of encounters.