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...and why is it Charisma? I know that most people go to CHA when they need a dump stat, but to me it will always be (for weak and entirely opinion-based reasons) my favorite stat in the game. You can use it with so many different things and it's an integral part of what is probably the most GM-discretionary aspect of the game: Diplomacy/Intimidate/Bluff checks.
As some famous guy probably said one time, "the best fight is one you can avoid". While there is more than one way to avoid a fight in PF, I find none to be quite as satisfying as talking your way around an entire encounter, defeating a whole group of bandits wielding nothing but a silver tongue (and dashing good looks). Adding on to that is its malleability, being able to be used in place of other stats for knowledge checks (Lore Oracles or Bards), AC (Lore Oracles again), saves (a bunch of classes), and even to-hit/to-damage (Desna's Shooting Star feat), among a host of other crap.
tl;dr: CHA > INT = DEX > CON > WIS > STR
Cha is class specific good. Either you class wants it and can be an amazing stat, or your class doesn't and it's a dump stat.
Cha is class specific good. Either you class wants it and can be an amazing stat, or your class doesn't and it's a dump stat.
Well that's true of any class/build (with the exception of CON, most likely). I'm talking more about stat preference overall in regards to the game itself.
Cha has nothing but certain skills tied to it, str is the next with just carry capacity. Dex is AC and ref, con HP and fort, int skills, wis will, all useful things for everyon. A fighter with max CHA isn't some super awesome thing. The developers keep wanting CHA to feel like a useful stat so they keep making CHA specific stuff, but it basically makes it more godly for those that it's good for and still useless for those that dump it.
Well CHA doesn't have a ton of things tied to hit BY DEFAULT, but with just a little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything. If you somehow turn yourself into an undead, it actually can account for ~90% of your ability-score based values.
Well CHA doesn't have a ton of things tied to hit BY DEFAULT, but with just a little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything. If you somehow turn yourself into an undead, it actually can account for ~90% of your ability-score based values.
If you're one of the three CHA reliant classes. Or multiclass with those.
The only thing obtainable by a barbarian is desna's star for attack and damage, and cha for initiative.
Paladin, oracle, and mesmerist are the only ones I know of to get CHA to a save.
Bard takes perform to a few non cha skills
oracle can get cha to knowledge instead of int.
medium can get cha + int to knowledges.
oracle and paladin can get it to AC.
yeah, the "little tinkering" I'm seeing a lot of the same class names popping up.
So, out of the box, how would you rate the stats?
This assumes no class-required stat...
CON > DEX > WIS > INT > STR > CHA
Putting the class-related stat in front...
(Wizard)
INT > CON > DEX > WIS > STR > CHA
(Fighter)
STR > CON > DEX > WIS > INT > CHA
(Kineticist)
CON > DEX > WIS > INT > STR > CHA
etc
Well CHA doesn't have a ton of things tied to hit BY DEFAULT, but with just a little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything. If you somehow turn yourself into an undead, it actually can account for ~90% of your ability-score based values.If you're one of the three CHA reliant classes. Or multiclass with those.
The only thing obtainable by a barbarian is desna's star for attack and damage, and cha for initiative.
Paladin, oracle, and mesmerist are the only ones I know of to get CHA to a save.
Bard takes perform to a few non cha skills
oracle can get cha to knowledge instead of int.
medium can get cha + int to knowledges.
oracle and paladin can get it to AC.
yeah, the "little tinkering" I'm seeing a lot of the same class names popping up.
Three CHA-reliant classes? So just off the top of my head, there's Paladin, Oracle, Bard, Mesmerist, Swashbuckler, Summoner, and Medium. Adding in archetypes opens up your options even more (lots of Eldritch-themed things), plus only having a select number of classes which predominately use CHA isn't even necessarily a bad thing if they do what you want them to (which they do for me).
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Con>wis = dex>int=cha>str
Con stops you from not dying with HP and not dying by fort saves.
Wis stops you from dying/become a puppet from a will save
Dex stops you from dying with AC and avoiding damage with ref saves.
int and cha are the skills stats. This lets you do stuff other than not die, and potentially allows for new ways to not die.
Str lets you carry stuff and by default kill things. While killing things sometimes can result in you not dying, it can also trigger more people wanting to kill you. Plus, since most people's job isn't to kill things, killing things isn't that useful or relevant.
This stat line works just fine for an adventurer: healbot clerics, offensive casting clerics, druids, and is passable for most spellcasters 9th and 6th. Just need to find some crazy suicidal freak of nature that has high str, or pull in more pets.
Wisdom is the best stat. It's a casting stat (automatic bump), it governs arguably the most important skill (Perception) and save (Will) and with a little finagling I can make myself almost completely Wis SAD on some characters (particularly with gestalt or 3PP options), with Wis to attack, damage, AC, and social skills.
+1 to Sundakan. Also flavor wise (hehe) wisdom is just fantastic.
Three CHA-reliant classes? So just off the top of my head, there's Paladin, Oracle, Bard, Mesmerist, Swashbuckler, Summoner, and Medium. Adding in archetypes opens up your options even more (lots of Eldritch-themed things), plus only having a select number of classes which predominately use CHA isn't even necessarily a bad thing if they do what you want them to (which they do for me).Well CHA doesn't have a ton of things tied to hit BY DEFAULT, but with just a little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything. If you somehow turn yourself into an undead, it actually can account for ~90% of your ability-score based values.If you're one of the three CHA reliant classes. Or multiclass with those.
The only thing obtainable by a barbarian is desna's star for attack and damage, and cha for initiative.
Paladin, oracle, and mesmerist are the only ones I know of to get CHA to a save.
Bard takes perform to a few non cha skills
oracle can get cha to knowledge instead of int.
medium can get cha + int to knowledges.
oracle and paladin can get it to AC.
yeah, the "little tinkering" I'm seeing a lot of the same class names popping up.
Those classes have CHA in their kit, but can't support a full CHA build, and/or don't have ways to spread their CHA to other stuff. There's not any room for "with little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything".
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As some famous guy probably said one time, "the best fight is one you can avoid".
Boooooring.
While talking your way out of a costly and unecessary fight can be useful and fun, systematically avoiding fights due to one guy maxing his social abilities makes for a boring game where the social guy is the only one to ever act.
HP
Those classes have CHA in their kit, but can't support a full CHA build, and/or don't have ways to spread their CHA to other stuff. There's not any room for "with little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything".Three CHA-reliant classes? So just off the top of my head, there's Paladin, Oracle, Bard, Mesmerist, Swashbuckler, Summoner, and Medium. Adding in archetypes opens up your options even more (lots of Eldritch-themed things), plus only having a select number of classes which predominately use CHA isn't even necessarily a bad thing if they do what you want them to (which they do for me).Well CHA doesn't have a ton of things tied to hit BY DEFAULT, but with just a little tinkering, it's pretty easy to turn it into your one-stop shop stat for just about everything. If you somehow turn yourself into an undead, it actually can account for ~90% of your ability-score based values.If you're one of the three CHA reliant classes. Or multiclass with those.
The only thing obtainable by a barbarian is desna's star for attack and damage, and cha for initiative.
Paladin, oracle, and mesmerist are the only ones I know of to get CHA to a save.
Bard takes perform to a few non cha skills
oracle can get cha to knowledge instead of int.
medium can get cha + int to knowledges.
oracle and paladin can get it to AC.
yeah, the "little tinkering" I'm seeing a lot of the same class names popping up.
I consider a 1-level dip to be "little tinkering", so with that in mind, it's pretty easy to make a really badass Swashbuckler (just as an example) that is mostly CHA-dependent just through feats and a single level dip into Oracle. There's no rule in PF that restricts you to exclusively using one class, so there's no reason to base judgement off of instances of people limiting themselves.
Which is what I said.
If you're one of the three CHA reliant classes. Or multiclass with those.
To me though. taking a dip isn't a little tinkering. It's taking a dip to get something. to me tinkering would be like an in class desision, an archetype, an item, a feat, or a trait.
Cha only does crazy stuff with a paladin or an oracle.
Constitution first, because absolutely no one is ever going to go with a con less than 10 if they can help it. Health is too valuable, and fort is a great second.
Wisdom is next. It is important for everyone due to the fact that it boosts will. People might not spend on it, but very few would be willing to actively dump it since will saves are the scariest thing typically. It only gets dumped on very low point buy gish builds, such as a 15 pt paladin.
dex is close after, since everyone could use it. AC is nice, but there is a limit based on armor (meaning heavy armor users are more likely to dump), reflex save is nice but it is usually the least threatening save (sure, fireballs, but that usually just kills you; fort gets on things like disease, which linger, and will can TPK). You often see it positive, but it isn't guaranteed. More likely to be dumped than wis.
Everything else is class and build specific.
I'd say that Strength is the best stat in the Pathfinder system, and here's why. Let's say you had a choice of a character with straight 10's in all their ability scores... but one 16 to place. You're free to make them any class, so this placement determines their very nature. When you look at the game mechanics, placing it in Strength and making them some sort of warrior helps them the best. Why? Because of all the ability scores, Strength has the most immediate benefit of "doubling down" on its influence.
Think of a warrior, 16 strength. That's a +3 to damage AND to hit. Your better strength helps you in the two most direct ways. Let's say you were a wizard and put that 16 into your intelligence. Sure, you might get 1 additional spell for a couple of levels, but it doesn't increase the effectiveness of your spells. Clerics don't heal better with a high wisdom score. Rogues don't do more sneak attack with a high dexterity score. When you look at the ability scores, and you think of which when optimized give the greatest benefit to a class' primary role, strength is the one that stands out.
Think of a warrior, 16 strength. That's a +3 to damage AND to hit. Your better strength helps you in the two most direct ways.
For a Warrior, yes.
Let's say you were a wizard and put that 16 into your intelligence. Sure, you might get 1 additional spell for a couple of levels, but it doesn't increase the effectiveness of your spells.
Well yeah if +3 to your spell DCs isn't making them more effective somehow.
Clerics don't heal better with a high wisdom score.
See above. Clerics can do more than heal.
Also, you need a minimum of an 11 in your casting stat to cast 1st level spells so yes, it does let them heal better, by actually letting them cast CLW.
Rogues don't do more sneak attack with a high dexterity score.
More to-hit (Weapon Finesse) = More Sneak Attack. They get that feat for free unless you're playing the joke class version.
When you look at the ability scores, and you think of which when optimized give the greatest benefit to a class' primary role, strength is the one that stands out.
For exactly one kind of class.
I'll give you that having a 16 in your Intelligence stat does improve the DC of your spells (and likewise for the Cleric, having a 16 will increase the DC of their spells as well). As for the Rogue... I'll be honest, I haven't had a chance to run a Rogue since the Unchained version was released. I wasn't aware of the new Finesse Training. Hmmmm. I'll have to give that a try. My argument was based primarily on the direct impact of your most valuable ability to your class and how your ability score improves that. For the warrior types, that's strength, because they hit stuff.
Mind you, perhaps another time I'll crunch the numbers as how a high DC influences damage potentials of a spell versus a warrior's consistent damage.
You guys could just average them so take very class get a approximate of their stat priorities and assign a rating then average them out. I'm gonna say Con cause I don't think it ever drops below 3rd priority unless you just like to liver dangerously.
You guys could just average them so take very class get a approximate of their stat priorities and assign a rating then average them out. I'm gonna say Con cause I don't think it ever drops below 3rd priority unless you just like to liver dangerously.
"Liver" dangerously? Ah, for those times post-quest when your adventuring group goes to the tavern and celebrates. Gotcha. ;)
Okay, okay. Let's crunch the numbers. First, we have to make some general rules of thumb. Let's take a warrior, not taking any feats or whatnot into consideration. Just your average brute with a greatsword and 16 strength. Let's say at 5th level he's doing 2d6+3 damage with a x2 19-20 critical modifier. Over twenty rolls, he would normally hit 10 times... but that +3 makes him hit three more times. So, out of twenty rolls and including two potential criticals he'll deal on average 144 points of damage. Pretty sweet.
Let's look at our wizard. At 5th level and a 16 Intelligence score, he's got himself two 3rd level spells. I don't know about you, but I like both Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Good, steady damaging spells that at this level will do 5d6 damage. And they're area effect, so you can catch more than one creature in it. Myself, I'm lucky to get three bad guys in at any time, so let's work with this concept. At 16 intelligence the DC of this is normally 13, but his bonus raises it to a 16. So, let's figure out the average effect here. The average of 5d6 is 17.5, so we have our spell damage. Now, since the game is fairly balanced so your base attempts usually have a 50-50 result or else I'd start throwing in the fighter's base to hit chance. So if a 13 is the usual saving throw DC, a 16 has an effect three times more frequently, and if a 20 sided die has a 5% chance of rolling any result that's a +15% efficacy. If both 3rd level spells did an average of 17.5 damage, and on average one would result in a failed saving throw but the other a success, but you have a +15% result, your result comes to look like 17.5 + [(17.5 / 2) + (17.5 * .15)]. The final result is 28.875 points of damage with both spells, worked over three targets, is 86.625 damage overall.
Which isn't to say that the Wizard only ever has those two spells in their repertoire. However, it shows that in the other 18 rounds of combat, a Wizard would have to manage 57.357 points of damage to equal the effectiveness of the warrior. Now, that's only averaging 3.1875 points of damage each round... except the Wizard doesn't have have the resources of the warrior. Is there some wiggle room for argument? Certainly. However, I still think that the strength stat improves the most important aspect of the fighter more than intelligence improves the most important aspect of the wizard. It's not clear cut, but there's a decent argument to be made.
you know I can't blame my spell check for not catching the typo. it is a correctly spelled word after all.
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From a roleplaying point of view:
INT>CHA>CON>WIS>DEX=STR
Why INT instead of CHA? I just can't stand to have an original idea and to think: "No, my character is not so smart or does not have the proper training, so it has no sense that he could have had that idea". So INT with CHA very close.
From a mechanical point of view:
CON>>>>All the others.
Low CON = you die. A lot. Or you have to be so careful that it isn't funny anymore.
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I dunno, STR is very important if nobody can carry any of their equipment and don't constantly use ant hault :D
I mean, I get that everyone ignores encumbarance rules constantly, but besides that, check out how well level 1 characters without str swim and climb : D Its really hilarious to imagine it. Sure late game you can replicate everything with spells(unless you are playing in martial only party in low fantasy campaign), but at level 1 you don't yet have those.
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You guys could just average them so take very class get a approximate of their stat priorities and assign a rating then average them out. I'm gonna say Con cause I don't think it ever drops below 3rd priority unless you just like to liver dangerously."Liver" dangerously? Ah, for those times post-quest when your adventuring group goes to the tavern and celebrates. Gotcha. ;)
Okay, okay. Let's crunch the numbers. First, we have to make some general rules of thumb. Let's take a warrior, not taking any feats or whatnot into consideration. Just your average brute with a greatsword and 16 strength. Let's say at 5th level he's doing 2d6+3 damage with a x2 19-20 critical modifier. Over twenty rolls, he would normally hit 10 times... but that +3 makes him hit three more times. So, out of twenty rolls and including two potential criticals he'll deal on average 144 points of damage. Pretty sweet.
Let's look at our wizard. At 5th level and a 16 Intelligence score, he's got himself two 3rd level spells. I don't know about you, but I like both Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Good, steady damaging spells that at this level will do 5d6 damage. And they're area effect, so you can catch more than one creature in it. Myself, I'm lucky to get three bad guys in at any time, so let's work with this concept. At 16 intelligence the DC of this is normally 13, but his bonus raises it to a 16. So, let's figure out the average effect here. The average of 5d6 is 17.5, so we have our spell damage. Now, since the game is fairly balanced so your base attempts usually have a 50-50 result or else I'd start throwing in the fighter's base to hit chance. So if a 13 is the usual saving throw DC, a 16 has an effect three times more frequently, and if a 20 sided die has a 5% chance of rolling any result that's a +15% efficacy. If both 3rd level spells did an average of 17.5 damage, and on average one would result in a failed saving throw but the other a success, but you have a +15% result,...
If a Wizard's role was to deal damage, you might have a point.
I've never seen anyone dump Con below 10 I have seen people who have will as their good save drop wis down to 8. Will saves are more important than Fort saves but Hit points are king if you ask me.
I think we can generally say con, because someone using con as a main stat for their class features is seen as a bigger thing than using dex.
y
Remember the pre-errata scarred witch? The kineticist?
If there were options that used con as your casting stat/melee stat, can you say you wouldn't use it?
I've never seen anyone dump Con below 10 I have seen people who have will as their good save drop wis down to 8. Will saves are more important than Fort saves but Hit points are king if you ask me.
On my Occultist, I dumped my WIS all the way to 7, but I actually prefer to live dangerously. Pathfinder gets a little boring to me if I prioritize safety, mostly because if you do that then it's pretty easy to get through an entire AP alive.
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The "best" stat(s) is/are actually wisdom/intelligence in equal measure - pretty much everything most any given person could possibly need out of life can be acquired through one of those two - but probably slightly edging out is wisdom - though with the extra skill points from intelligence, you can do even more things.
That said, adventurers aren't "most any given person" and find greater utility from other stats. And, you know, I like things, too.
While I'd prioritize (if I could) Wisdom in real life ('cause understanding and being able to divine right/wrong and good/bad ideas are better than knowing stuff but being too foolish to apply it properly), I wouldn't want to dump either intelligence (skill points and knowledge!) or charisma (social yumminess!). Similarly, I'd need at least a little strength for opening jars and stuff, leaving only dex and con to be dumpe- ohmywordmylifemakessomuchsensenow~!
... wait, no, that doesn't work, 'cause if I did that, how come I'm still stupid and occasionally socially awkward...?
W-what are you guys looking at! S-shut up!
ANYWAY. >.>
Charisma is "best" because charisma is "fun" and I like it.
Intelligence is "best" because never enough skill points~!
Wisdom is "best" because Perception is one of the best skills in the game, and also Will saves are super important.
It just so happens that those three control spellcasting... hmmmmm...