At lvl 10, a wizard needed 250k xp. A fighter, 500k. A Ranger needed 600k. A druid could get there with 125k xp. The fact that the game doesn't go much further than that, is actually a PROBLEM for the fighters. Wizards arrived to the "real end game levels" way faster.How is that a problem? Seriously, how?
I don't know how is it a problem, or if it's a problem at all. But it makes the statement of "in the old days, wizards advanced slowlier because they were more powerful", something blatantly wrong. If they were more powerful, then they were both more powerful AND faster learners. If they weren't more powerful, then the original statement has 2 mistakes instead of one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
More nuanced responses would be that if you want martials and/or meleers with magical powers, play something other than a fighter.But fighters with supernatural level of power are common, both in the tropes (like Achilles and his unbreakable skin) and the game, where a lvl 15 fighter can grapple a rhino with a hand tied to his back, without any magic item.
The problem with Pathfinder/DnD with martials, is that they suffer what I call "selective realism".
You do realise that the examples you quoted.. One of them included origin. "bathed in fire by one of the 12 primary gods of the campaign?"
That's essentially a mythic campaign, not exactly a standard origin for adventurers.
And if you actually checked the rules a level 15 fighter without any gear, who deliberately handicaps his CMB is going to have major problems with a rhino, which has size and four-footed advantages and other things going for it.
Well, it's mythic, or just a background you use to explain how he is so bad ass at high level. It could be as simple as a trait, actually. Sigurd, Beowulf, Hiawatha, Cu Chulain, many others have also those kind of backgrounds, to explain the kind of things a high level fighter does. Boromir doesn't have that kind of background, because he doesn't need it. He's low level, and will play a low level adventure, where an Ogre Spider is a dangerous threat
A rhino has CMD 20. A lvl 15 fighter human fighter, without any kind of fancy stuff, has +15 from BAB, +5 from str (15 from the standard array, +2 from human, 3 level advancement), -4 from not being able to use both hands, can do it with 2+ if he has the basic improved grapple feat.
More nuanced responses would be that if you want martials and/or meleers with magical powers, play something other than a fighter.But fighters with supernatural level of power are common, both in the tropes (like Achilles and his unbreakable skin) and the game, where a lvl 15 fighter can grapple a rhino with a hand tied to his back, without any magic item.
The problem with Pathfinder/DnD with martials, is that they suffer what I call "selective realism".
You do realise that the examples you quoted.. One of them included origin. "bathed in fire by one of the 12 primary gods of the campaign?"
That's essentially a mythic campaign, not exactly a standard origin for adventurers.
And if you actually checked the rules a level 15 fighter without any gear, who deliberately handicaps his CMB is going to have major problems with a rhino, which has size and four-footed advantages and other things going for it.
Well, it's mythic, or just a background you use to explain how he is so bad ass at high level. It could be as simple as a trait, actually. Sigurd, Beowulf, Hiawatha, Cu Chulain, many others have also those kind of backgrounds, to explain the kind of things a high level fighter does.
A rhino has CMD 20. A lvl 15 fighter human fighter, without any kind of fancy stuff, has +15 from BAB, +5 from str (15 from the standard array, +2 from human, 3 level advancement), -4 from not being able to use both hands, can do it with 2+ if he has the basic improved grapple feat.
Again those examples are MYTHIC fighters, not fighters of the mortal kind that are the model for standard fighters.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again those examples are MYTHIC fighters, not fighters of the mortal kind that are the model for standard fighters.More nuanced responses would be that if you want martials and/or meleers with magical powers, play something other than a fighter.But fighters with supernatural level of power are common, both in the tropes (like Achilles and his unbreakable skin) and the game, where a lvl 15 fighter can grapple a rhino with a hand tied to his back, without any magic item.
The problem with Pathfinder/DnD with martials, is that they suffer what I call "selective realism".
You do realise that the examples you quoted.. One of them included origin. "bathed in fire by one of the 12 primary gods of the campaign?"
That's essentially a mythic campaign, not exactly a standard origin for adventurers.
And if you actually checked the rules a level 15 fighter without any gear, who deliberately handicaps his CMB is going to have major problems with a rhino, which has size and four-footed advantages and other things going for it.
Well, it's mythic, or just a background you use to explain how he is so bad ass at high level. It could be as simple as a trait, actually. Sigurd, Beowulf, Hiawatha, Cu Chulain, many others have also those kind of backgrounds, to explain the kind of things a high level fighter does.
A rhino has CMD 20. A lvl 15 fighter human fighter, without any kind of fancy stuff, has +15 from BAB, +5 from str (15 from the standard array, +2 from human, 3 level advancement), -4 from not being able to use both hands, can do it with 2+ if he has the basic improved grapple feat.
High level fighters ARE mythic fighters. The kind of fighters that grapple a bull with a hand tied to their backs, while being drunk.
Boromir isn't mythic, and also can't grapple a rhino. Because he's not high level enough to do so. He probably can't even swim while carrying a full plate, that's pretty low level for PF standards. So while you don't need supernatural level of powers to explain Boromir, you need supernatural level of power to explain high level fighters
But at lvl 10-11 the difference was big enough that the fighter was lagging behind in level.Uhm. You know level 10-11 was close to level cap for just about everything but humans right?
It's not like PF where people usually go for 20. In many editions players could only go to 10. Epic adventures allowed for 11+ but those were optional.
Umm, no. You're thinking of Basic D&D, etc. AD&D there were no limits. Same with OD&D.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Umm, no. You're thinking of Basic D&D, etc. AD&D there were no limits. Same with OD&D.
But at lvl 10-11 the difference was big enough that the fighter was lagging behind in level.Uhm. You know level 10-11 was close to level cap for just about everything but humans right?
It's not like PF where people usually go for 20. In many editions players could only go to 10. Epic adventures allowed for 11+ but those were optional.
In the version of AD&D I started with, there was a limit. For Half-elves, as fighters, it was 14, +1 if you had str 14+, and going up in a table until you got 4 levels above the cap, with STR 19+.
That particular character of mine survived a very very long campaign (and become king, and married a succubus, yay me!), until I died to a gygaxian type of trap in a written Forgotten Realms adventure (can't remember which one), right before I reached my cap. I was 17, and my cap was 18.
Well, actually I died before of that too, but got raised from the dead. I decided not to be raised from the dead a second time because we didn't like to resurrect too much, and because my succubus wife died in the previous season and my character was missing them.
And now as I type this, I miss a lot that style of gaming, when everything was new, and fresh, and surprising, and epic. :(
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Races did have level caps yes. But what DrDeth is saying is the other guy is mixing up AD&D with the old colored box sets.
Again those examples are MYTHIC fighters, not fighters of the mortal kind that are the model for standard fighters.
Or the fighter just took eldritch heritage (Destined) as a feat?
Classes are supposed to be equally useful in an adventure. That has nothing to with their ability to be bosses as NPC's, which is why a CR 11 fighter, and a CR 11 wizard are not equal as opponents.And yet they are treated as equal. The Encounter design rules present them as equal. You gain the same experience for overcoming them.
I agree that they're not, but the evidence seems to point more to "failure to meet design goals" than "intentionally not balanced".
A lot of monsters of equal CR are not equal as opponents, and some like shadows are even a threat to much higher level PC's while other CR 3(I think that is their CR) fall off well before that.
As a GM you should realize that all "same CR" does not equal to "same difficulty in every case". That CR 11 fighter if built well can siphon hit points very well, but he should be backup or use in a group. That CR 11 wizard is better as a solo combatant.
This is something that is known by most people. It is not always design failure but it is sometimes GM failure if he doesnt use monsters properly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See... I'm going to argue that. Ja'qen is around a level 12 Ninja (given that he clearly has at least two Master Tricks - Master Disguise and Assassinate). Melisandre pulled off casting Raise Dead and Summon Monster VI (to get the Shadow Demon), so that put her at level 11 at minimum. I don't think these characters are low level.Instead, I'd say that there are two things going on. First, the vast majority of their opposition are other characters built as NPCs, not things from a beastiary. As such, Level 15 Order of the Lion Cavalier Jaime Lannister taking on Level 15 Seasoned Commander Fighter Ned Stark is a CR equivalent encounter.
...Again, I think the GoT characters are just campaign-specific archetypes or prestige classes giving them specific SLAs. The Faceless Men all have the exact same abilities. None of the other Faceless Men have different ninja tricks. Melisandre doesn't have Summon Monster VI, she has Summon Monster VI (shadow demon only). She can't summon anything else that we're aware of (either from SMVI or SMI-V). Presumably all Shadowbinders can also summon shadow demons and nothing else. Red Priests/Priestesses are the closest to actual spellcasters (in that they have diverse abilities) but none of them have more than two abilities at a single time (that I can think of). Again, any power Melisandre has that Quaithe has is from Shadowbinder, not Red Priestess. Which is everything but Raise Dead? Well, and Shadow Demons, but that's clearly from Shadowbinder.
And if Ned Stark is level 15 then he can chug Arsenic or Wolfsbane or Deadly Nightshade. Ditto any other class with a good Fort save (Melisandre, if a Cleric 11, would only be two points behind on base Fort). I'm pretty sure important characters do not regularly chug poison (and treat it like an actual danger). I mean, depending on what the Mountain is, his save should be so high as to be effectively immune yet he clearly wasn't.
Not to mention in how many hours of game time? Melisandre has cast maybe 5 spells aside from looking into the fire. Pathfinder can't support a campaign wherein the wizard casts a spell once every two game sessions and spends the rest of the time literally watching other people fight.
Because that would be mindnumngly boring
What about assigning different xp speeds based on casting ability:
Full casters: slow speed
6 and 4th lvl casters: medium
Everyone else: fast
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I keep wanting to comment on these threads, but I generally don't get the time to write it up.
Firstly, I believe that the Caster-Martial-Disparity does not really exist in regular gameplay. You can theorycraft all you want, but when the dice are out and on the table, its impossible for a caster to consistently outclass a well-built non-caster - especially at levels that you actually play at (In my experience, level 17+ play does not happen very often, and when it does, the power potential difference between characters is so great that a certain degree of GM flexibility is required). When you start looking at various exploitable loopholes (simulacrum, binding djinni for infinite wishes, etc), you're no longer playing the game, you're theorycrafting.
So I think "limiting spellcasters" is not really required.
Normally, I prefer to avoid the C/MD threads. But this one time, I went through my favorites and found the rebuttal I needed. Please refer to item #7.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And if you actually checked the rules a level 15 fighter without any gear, who deliberately handicaps his CMB is going to have major problems with a rhino, which has size and four-footed advantages and other things going for it.
Having four legs doesn't actually confer any advantage in a grapple. A Rhino only has a CMD of 20. Extra legs is a defense against trip, against which a Rhino would have a CMD of 24.
A low-balling Fighter, with 15 base strength and putting his level up points into that strength, would have 18. BAB +15 + 4 Str -4 One-Handed Grapple would have a CMB of +15. Thus, he'd successfully grapple that Rhino on a roll of 5 or higher. He'd then be able to Pin on subsequent rounds on a roll of 2 or higher.
Meanwhile, the Rhino's only got a CMB of +10, versus that same fighter's CMD of 25 (if you also include the -4 to CMD because of the one-handed method), so the Rhino would need to roll at least a 15 to break free.
That Fighter isn't going to have THAT much trouble pinning that Rhino. and this isn't even a fighter designed for grappling.
In fact, I looked up the grappling rules, curious as to where that bit with the -4 penalty came from. You could do all of that. . .with BOTH arms tied behind your back. And still only have a -4 penalty.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
See... I'm going to argue that. Ja'qen is around a level 12 Ninja (given that he clearly has at least two Master Tricks - Master Disguise and Assassinate).
Ja'qen is not a lvl 12 ninja. He is much closer to a lvl 1 Bard (with disguise self) and lvl 3 rogue, which is enough to kill level 1 guards.
If Ja'qen were lvl 12, he would be the same CR than a Huge sized black dragon, for example. Which he clearly isn't in the fiction's lore.
Jaime Lannister being a lvl 15 Cavalier means he can go face to face with a Rhino, and grapple it to submission, which he can't, and that he should be able to survive falling from the highest tower in King's Landing, which he is unable. He should be able to survive easily any normal poison, such as Arsenic, and only struggle against magical supernatural poisons, such as Wyvern's. Which is not the case.
Melisandre's power is basically Augury, which is a lvl 1 spell. He calls a shadow-type demon once, which is something you can do in pathfinder with a Candle of Invocation, even at lvl 1. He also raise Jon from the dead, but even she is unable to explain how. It looks more like a plot based ritual (like the Horror Adventures rituals) than something she can command at will. Which is how most casters are treated in this kind of fiction: as NPC that provide plot hooks. Gandalf is supposedly a incredibly powerful wizard, but he can't even get himself out of a tower. Even Feather Fall would had worked.
Game of Thrones is, by Pathfinder standards, a low level adventure. None of the fighters you see there stand a chance to beat 1vs1 a Giant, or Dragon, or Purple Worm, and that's not including more magic-savvy enemies like demons or angels. Most of them would struggle to beat a lion or bear, and those would be appropiated leveled threats for them as a group. A Grizzly bear is CR5, and I can see how a grizzly bear would probably beat the crap out of Brienne of Tarth unless she gets some help. A pair of wolves could possibly kill Tyrion. A pair of wolves would have 0 chances against Jason, or Perseus, or Beowulf, or Achilles, which are high level heroes.
Do you know who is a high level cavalier, by PF standards? Captain America.
You could use the Game of Thrones RPG instead, and you'll get a game much closer to the fiction. But if you use Pathfinder, then those adventures are low level ones, vs low level threats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Except not only Monsters have CR. Animals have CR too. A grizzly bear would threaten seriously, if not kill, any of your "lvl 15 cavaliers", by the fiction's Lore. A tiger would decimate them. Maybe The Mountain That Rides would be, by lore, a character able to punch to death a grizzly bear using only his armor's gauntlets, but that's it. Rest of characters would have a tough fight. Beowulf can reasonably kill a grizzly bear in one single punch . He fought Grendel naked and barehanded. And Grendel was a Jotun, with magical powers, inmune to weapons, and the size of a giant.
Because they are not lvl 15 by pathfinder standars. Regular poison would kill Jaime. Regular falls from a tower would kill Jaime. He is far more fragile than a lvl 15 cavalier is in Pathfinder.
You are only forcing the issue, because you want to believe they are really powerful and simultaneously want to believe you can play him using PF rules. They are not. Aragorn is not CR 15. Aragorn is barely a match for a monster of the aproximated level of threat of a pathfinder Troll . Aragorn could be a match for a Wraith, if he has a magic Sword, he is roughly that level of power. I can envision Aragorn being a match for an Ogre Spider. He could be a match for a Dire Wolf. But those are CR 5 level of threats in Pathfinder.
Aragorn is not a match for a Demon, or a stone giant or a dragon . His answer for those threats is "run, fools, run" and "swords are of no more use here"- And a high level PF fighter, is a threat for those. Beowulf does not run from dragons, he kills them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Game of Thrones is low fantasy. Pathfinder is high fantasy.
These things are not compatible.
Game of Thrones is low fantasy. Pathfinder is high fantasy.
These things are not compatible.
Indeed.
I'm sure someone could houserule Pathfinder into producing a passable equivalent to GoT, but it would take a ton of revisions to capture the gritty Low Fantasy feel of GoT. Enough house rules to make a lot of people (myself included) call the end result "Not Pathfinder."
Magic would have to be completely revised. Pathfinder magic that is frequently used, reliable, and comes at no larger price is not at all the way GoT works.
The HP system would have to be replaced with something like a Vitality/wounds system at bare minimum, and more likely something completely different that allows injuries that can have major, long-term consequences. When Ned gets stabbed in the leg he doesn't just lose a few HP, he's walking with a cane for weeks afterwards and there's a risk he'll be lose some function in that leg permanantly. And that's with immediate treatment and some of the best medical care available; if he'd been out in the field the wound probably would've gotten infected and killed him. Just look at what happened to Khal Drogo.
And so on...
I will note, for the record, that there's nothing wrong with doing a gritty low-fantasy RPG based on the d20 system. Just pointing out that if you make your own original d20 low fantasy game, it's ... your own game. Not Pathfinder.
And to me, non-casters are just terribly boring. Sure I can build an effective archer, but I'd be bored out of my mind only full-attacking every turn.
So much this.
I wonder if instead of banning casters with access to 9th level spell like someone suggested it would be better to ban classes without spell access (except Alchemist and Investigator they are cool), they are the ones with problems to keep up after all. I mean in a high fantasy game like Pathfinder with so much high magic present the idea of PC classes without magic seems at least odd to me if not completely incongruous.
I mean, are Kineticists magical? Are monks with ki powers magical? Is a fighter using Warrior Spirit to make his greatsword burst into flames magical?
Why would anybody want to ban Barbarians, since they're the full-BAB/no-spells class that everybody agrees can keep up just fine?
Poor Swashbucklers though.
Well there's you're problem right there. You're playing a completely different game with different rules than everyone else in this discussion. Wraithstrike, thejeff, OQ, etc were all talking about Pathfinder.Classes are supposed to be equally useful in an adventure. That has nothing to with their ability to be bosses as NPC's, which is why a CR 11 fighter, and a CR 11 wizard are not equal as opponents.And yet they are treated as equal. The Encounter design rules present them as equal. You gain the same experience for overcoming them.
I agree that they're not, but the evidence seems to point more to "failure to meet design goals" than "intentionally not balanced".Actually you'd be incorrect.
See in 2nd edition
I'm surprised you guys don't already know that DireElf and HWalsh are both here to talk about 2nd Ed in Pathfinder discussions.
Game of Thrones is low fantasy. Pathfinder is high fantasy.
These things are not compatible.
Indeed.
I'm sure someone could houserule Pathfinder into producing a passable equivalent to GoT, but it would take a ton of revisions to capture the gritty Low Fantasy feel of GoT. Enough house rules to make a lot of people (myself included) call the end result "Not Pathfinder."
Magic would have to be completely revised. Pathfinder magic that is frequently used, reliable, and comes at no larger price is not at all the way GoT works.
The HP system would have to be replaced with something like a Vitality/wounds system at bare minimum, and more likely something completely different that allows injuries that can have major, long-term consequences. When Ned gets stabbed in the leg he doesn't just lose a few HP, he's walking with a cane for weeks afterwards and there's a risk he'll be lose some function in that leg permanantly. And that's with immediate treatment and some of the best medical care available; if he'd been out in the field the wound probably would've gotten infected and killed him. Just look at what happened to Khal Drogo.
And so on...
I will note, for the record, that there's nothing wrong with doing a gritty low-fantasy RPG based on the d20 system. Just pointing out that if you make your own original d20 low fantasy game, it's ... your own game. Not Pathfinder.
As others have suggested, E6 handles this kind of thing *beautifully*.
OP, have you happened to look at E6 yet? There's been some discussion in this thread, but I don't believe anyone has actually linked it.
Enworld E6 Thread
"P6" Pathfinder E6 Website
You're also much more likely to be able to find AP conversion advice for E6 as it's actually a popular and understood method of play.
PF disincentivizes E# by way of their AP's. The product quality is high enough people clamor to finish them once begun, and there is no way an E6 party is completing an AP. E10 might have a chance.
However, that shouldn't be a problem for OP, because he wants to play a Gameofthrone-sque campaign. There's no way you can reasonably plug what happen in a Paizo AP in that kind of campaign, because, well, Westeros characters aren't high level enough. Take for example, Kingmaker, which could be seen as a genre fitting AP for the kind of action we love to watch and read in both the show and GRR Martin's books.
By the end of the adventure, players travel to different plane, have faced magical hags, a lich, dragons, ghosts, empowered will o wisps, kill Trolls by the dozens, and defeat a powerful fey which is basically inmortal to normal means of death. Tyrion Lannister and his (half?) brother Jaime aren't able to do all of that, within the fiction's Lore.
I haven't read yet the final 2 books of Strange Aeons (one of them is not out yet), But I suspect there are high chances that the PC end facing, in some way, a Great Old One. Even if they put him in a weakened state (to be a valid CR for a party of LVL 16), that's still completely out of the sphere of power of Jon Snow, Bronn, Cersei Lannister or Arya Stark. There's no way that, under the current assumption of Jon's power within the books lore, he can even stand a minimal chance to survive a round of combat against freaking Cthulhu, or some diferent Great Old One of equivalent level
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As others have suggested, E6 handles this kind of thing *beautifully*.Game of Thrones is low fantasy. Pathfinder is high fantasy.
These things are not compatible.
Indeed.
I'm sure someone could houserule Pathfinder into producing a passable equivalent to GoT, but it would take a ton of revisions to capture the gritty Low Fantasy feel of GoT. Enough house rules to make a lot of people (myself included) call the end result "Not Pathfinder."
Magic would have to be completely revised. Pathfinder magic that is frequently used, reliable, and comes at no larger price is not at all the way GoT works.
The HP system would have to be replaced with something like a Vitality/wounds system at bare minimum, and more likely something completely different that allows injuries that can have major, long-term consequences. When Ned gets stabbed in the leg he doesn't just lose a few HP, he's walking with a cane for weeks afterwards and there's a risk he'll be lose some function in that leg permanantly. And that's with immediate treatment and some of the best medical care available; if he'd been out in the field the wound probably would've gotten infected and killed him. Just look at what happened to Khal Drogo.
And so on...
I will note, for the record, that there's nothing wrong with doing a gritty low-fantasy RPG based on the d20 system. Just pointing out that if you make your own original d20 low fantasy game, it's ... your own game. Not Pathfinder.
No, it doesn't. It's barely an improvement over base Pathfinder for Gritty Low Fantasy. Seriously, read what's actually in my post, and ask if any of that is changed by E6.
E6 does not make magic less easy to access or reliable, it just limits how strong spells get. And only level 3 and below spells are still more than enough to screw up a lot of low fantasy games. Hell, Create Water can do mess with a lot of survival challenge, and that's a cantrip.
It doesn't change the HP system, so injuries still work the same way. E6 does not make infected wounds or lasting injuries any more a part of the system than they are in base Pathfinder. You can still heal up to full HP with a couple cleric spells, or just sleeping for a while. Magic can still cure the blind and deaf, or any nonmagical disease.
E6 is still High Fantasy, not Gritty Low Fantasy. It's just a toned down version of High Fantasy.
Well, regardless of people's tastes for high/low level play, it is different in a bunch of things.
For once, it makes mundane classes still mundane: fighters can't grapple dinosaurs, can't survive falling from the highest tower, and can't drink poison as if it was Mountain Dew. That's a different playstyle, which may or may not suit you, but it clearly attracts some people.
It's also a step that allows you to remove the rest of the high fantasy if you want to, because there's nothing "needed" at those levels from magic or magic items. Your fighter can stand a chance in combat without that +1 sword or that +1 cloak of resistance. At level 17, if you don't have a +5 cloak of resistance, you are not making your saves vs the DC for appropiate CR 17 monsters, and without +6 STR and +3 to +5 weapons, your BAB alone is not going to be enough to hit CR 17 creatures' AC.
The game also has unspoken assumptions for spells, which you can mostly ignore at lower level. For example: you don't need to fly in every combat, you don't need ways to teleport or avoid teleportation, and you aren't forced to rely on magical healing to remove ability drain, insanity, and other conditions. At lower level, most enemies do ability damage not drain, and you can heal that just by resting.
It may not be a direct transformation into a GoT game, but it's a step forward.
Who doesn't want to eventually wrestle dinosaurs.
Who doesn't want to eventually wrestle dinosaurs.
The OP, apparently. And the people who like and play E6, which is perfectly Ok.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Who doesn't want to eventually wrestle dinosaurs.
I so want to play the character whose answer to everything is to put it into a headlock.
Me: Okay, here's the plan. I'm going to sneak up on that thing and put it in a headlock.
Other Player: You're going to put that hydra into a headlock? It has five heads!
Me: Then a headlock should be super-effective. Oooh yeeeaaah!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Who doesn't want to eventually wrestle dinosaurs.I so want to play the character whose answer to everything is to put it into a headlock.
Me: Okay, here's the plan. I'm going to sneak up on that thing and put it in a headlock.
Other Player: You're going to put that hydra into a headlock? It has five heads!
Me: Then a headlock should be super-effective. Oooh yeeeaaah!
Gestalt tetori/lore warden ftw
I played a Mythic Monk/Brawler/Chevalier once that was pretty fun, that was basically his deal.
I played a Mythic Monk/Brawler/Chevalier once that was pretty fun, that was basically his deal.
I kind of want to play a brawler of kurgess now.
Make beer money wrestling the biggest guy in the village.
My goal was to be able to get a CMB high enough to grapple Cthulhu.
At campaign's end, I did it.
Very satisfying feeling, I recommend it.