The Sword wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Saithor wrote: I don't think you're addressing me, but my arguments are not along those veins. And here's the thing, is that if we want a 'realistic' fighter, we might as well throw the entire system out the window. Because there are only a few classes that obey reality, and all of them are martials. We're arguing about whether or not a normal human could do this kind of thing in a ruleset where people can bend the laws of reality with their mind or even MUSIC! Reality does not enter the process anywhere really. Martials, and even base fighters, stop being 'realistic' after only a few levels, so nobody, and I mean nobody is arguing that we need to adhere to reality. The Sword is.
It might be Marvel Cinematic Universe reality with nonpowered badasses like Hawkeye and Black Widow, but its reality. You have a rather different definition of reality than I do. Precisely!
There is a big difference between a guy who can fire three arrows simultaneous at different targets. A feat of skill that it would be preposterous to suggest could come from a normal medieval bow - however its fine by me, because we can conceive that a hero could train to do that however unlikely.
I wouldn't want to see the same archer phase those arrows through a wall to hit the foe on the other side because it breaks reality rather than bends it.
I require internal consistancy in my game worlds. That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude.
kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically?
_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically? Maybe they did in the games he played. Like I said ultra-high level play is intensely idiosyncratic.
_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically? Level 17 is the mark of divinity in my games.
Erastil, Asmodeus, Pharasma... Level 17-20.
Also I have Cayden Calean, Torag and Rovagug as pure martial. [Erastil is a Ranger style light casting martial.]
I am mostly concerned that the greatest heroes of the Ring are quickly outstripped by most Pathfinder agents. I suppose it does make people feel special that their characters are much more powerful than Aragorn, Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser.
There was a faction in Sigil that beleived that divinity was the eneveitable end goal in life, and so they trained every day to improve themselves so the spark of Godhood could be released.
I identified more with the Harmonium ; )
The universe follows immutable laws... mine!
kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically? Level 17 is the mark of divinity in my games.
Erastil, Asmodeus, Pharasma... Level 17-20.
Also I have Cayden Calean, Torag and Rovagug as pure martial. [Erastil is a Ranger style light casting martial.]
Listen, you obviously aren't playing Pathfinder, so it's pretty hard to have discussion when you're operating from a completely different set of assumptions.
Daw wrote: I am mostly concerned that the greatest heroes of the Ring are quickly outstripped by most Pathfinder agents. I suppose it does make people feel special that their characters are much more powerful than Aragorn, Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser.
Only if you choose to run games at that level. I've run a number of extended campaigns at low levels and they're awesome.
kyrt-ryder wrote: Sundakan wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: You assume I use grids or maps.
You also assume I don't use anti-teleport effects.
Sorry, I'll make sure to keep your hitherto unmentioned houserules on how movement works in mind in the future. :rolleyes: My apologies, it's easy for me to forget that Battlefield of the Mind is a houserule. When your "battlefield of the mind" removes doors from places, does not have any change in direction required at any point during a battle, never has difficult terrain, and ignores the rules for moving diagonally...yes, yes it is.
"Battlefield of the mind" is generally assumed to mean you just don't use a map, but do have a theater of battle in mind, and do use the normal movement rules. Not have a battlefield that is just a flat, featureless plain regardless of setting.
_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically? Level 17 is the mark of divinity in my games.
Erastil, Asmodeus, Pharasma... Level 17-20.
Also I have Cayden Calean, Torag and Rovagug as pure martial. [Erastil is a Ranger style light casting martial.]
Listen, you obviously aren't playing Pathfinder, so it's pretty hard to have discussion when you're operating from a completely different set of assumptions. see timestop and Gate and Shapechange
Sundakan wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: Sundakan wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: You assume I use grids or maps.
You also assume I don't use anti-teleport effects.
Sorry, I'll make sure to keep your hitherto unmentioned houserules on how movement works in mind in the future. :rolleyes: My apologies, it's easy for me to forget that Battlefield of the Mind is a houserule. When your "battlefield of the mind" removes doors from places, does not have any change in direction required at any point during a battle, never has difficult terrain, and ignores the rules for moving diagonally...yes, yes it is.
"Battlefield of the mind" is generally assumed to mean you just don't use a map, but do have a theater of battle in mind, and do use the normal movement rules. Not have a battlefield that is just a flat, featureless plain. By the time a character reaches that level what's the point of a door?
Regardong diagonal mpvement, that's an artifact of the grid. No grid means movement is always 1 for 1
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote: Class identity in Pathfinder is an odd thing. I'm currently going through every single class allowed in my campaign and seeing what archetypes and options they'd need to take to all become "monks", and so far the only issue is "village mystic who rides atop a ghost turtle, striking foes with his tiger fork" (the cavalier) is abit too far from monk than I'd prefer. But I need his stats, because that man is TOTALLY going to show up in my campaign. I don't care how I have to write him in...
kyrt-ryder wrote: Daw wrote: Jeff,
Legolas wasn't matched against farmboys. Aragorn was Dunedain, and likely well over 100 years old, and very experienced. Borimir it was the greatest hero of his people, son of the steward of Gondor. Gimli was hardly a child, likely also well over 100 years, and was likely a seriously experienced warrior, after all, he was at the council. They were all heroes by right.
Absolutely.
Hence the estimates between levels 5 and 8 But yes Daw, that sounds about right. I thought you were implying Legolas as an Elf should be beyond them. All of them were impressive heroes, with Aragorn probably abit ahead of the others. In the books.
In the movies, Legolas seemed to be about a tier up from the others.
Aragorn's around 80, IIRC.
kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level.
There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics.
kyrt-ryder wrote: By the time a character reaches that level what's the point of a door? It stops movement.
Daw wrote: I am mostly concerned that the greatest heroes of the Ring are quickly outstripped by most Pathfinder agents. I suppose it does make people feel special that their characters are much more powerful than Aragorn, Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser.
It doesn't bother me because Middle Earth isn't Golarion. Expecting Middle Earth heroes to have the power of Golarion heroes isn't that muh different than expecting all the hobbit houses to be lit by electricity and have Wi-FI access. Just as Middle-Earth isn't our world... it isn't Golarion, either.
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kyrt-ryder wrote:
By the time a character reaches that level what's the point of a door?
To keep people from barging into your home, and to keep the cold out and the heat in. Just for starters.
This question confuses me greatly. Are al the battlefields built by the PCs? Do PCs disdain the use of doors and windows? And buildings at all, for that matter?
Is your campaign setting one where the thought process goes "Welp, a door isn't going to keep a high level adventurer out, may as well not install one in my house".
Sundakan wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote:
By the time a character reaches that level what's the point of a door?
To keep people from barging into your home, and to keep the cold out and the heat in. Just for starters.
This question confuses me greatly. Are al the battlefields built by the PCs? Do PCs disdain the use of doors and windows? And buildings at all, for that matter?
Is your campaign setting one where the thought process goes "Welp, a door isn't going to keep a high level adventurer out, may as well not install one in my house". I think in his world, they open automatically if you're above a certain level. ;)
Doors-unless made of adamantine with adamantine hinges set in an adamantine wall- are meaningless to level 17+martials.
Coolaid man style if necessary.
_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: By the time a character reaches that level what's the point of a door? It stops movement. It's the bane of all invisible characters. :)
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_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level.
There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics. I'm gonna need see to some stats. Mostly because we know the stats for the Mantis God Achaekek and a level 20 full caster would crush him with little effort. Furthermore, Lamashtu a demon lord could beat a god with some planning. And a level 20 Caster can easily beat the statted demon lords. So until you show me some stats for those gods, the lore of the setting and the fact that casters can in fact walk all over a god utterly rejects your premise.
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Daw wrote: I am mostly concerned that the greatest heroes of the Ring are quickly outstripped by most Pathfinder agents. I suppose it does make people feel special that their characters are much more powerful than Aragorn, Conan, Fafhrd and the Mouser.
I feel like that's only really an issue when you're playing a game that has some kind of connection to Tolkien, Howard, or Leiber. It's no more reasonable to demand that your fantasy RPG is consistent with Tolkien, than it is to demand that your vampire RPG is consistent with Stoker, or your Cyberpunk RPG is consistent with Gibson.
People take inspiration from things and go from there, and novels use all sorts of contrivances that would make games unfun. Pathfinder was never intended to be a game in which the events of LotR could have taken place.
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The Sword wrote: There was a faction in Sigil that beleived that divinity was the eneveitable end goal in life, and so they trained every day to improve themselves so the spark of Godhood could be released.
I identified more with the Harmonium ; )
The universe follows immutable laws... mine!
I favoured the Signers myself. There's a reason I always DM.
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kyrt-ryder wrote: Doors-unless made of adamantine with adamantine hinges set in an adamantine wall- are meaningless to level 17+martials.
Coolaid man style if necessary.
Well sure, gods shouldn't be bothered by doors.
However, back in Pathfinder land....
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kyrt-ryder wrote: Doors-unless made of adamantine with adamantine hinges set in an adamantine wall- are meaningless to level 17+martials.
Coolaid man style if necessary.
Ironically, coolaid man-style busting through doors without interrupting their movement is another thing that martials can't do.
_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it.
Quote: There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics. Except all the level 17+ characters in my games match all those criterion.
Oh, one slight hoiserule though. I don't do 'god granted spells.' Divine magic is powered by faith, not the whim of some a%!&$+! in another plain.
kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically? Level 17 is the mark of divinity in my games.
Erastil, Asmodeus, Pharasma... Level 17-20.
Also I have Cayden Calean, Torag and Rovagug as pure martial. [Erastil is a Ranger style light casting martial.] Yeah, I agree with Ozy, you're playing a pretty different game. You're buffing even the casters at least for the last tier, if I understand you. And pulling the gods way down. (Or maybe the PC up even farther than I think.)
Nothing wrong with that, but I think it's skewing your viewpoint.
In Pathfinder, for example, things that don't even qualify as real gods run at 20th level + 10 Mythic Tiers.
thejeff wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: That consistency comes to me by way of level. A character who evolves all the way to level 20 without becoming a god [such as erastil or abadar or Cayden Calean] breaks my sense of verisimilitude. I don't really understand this. Gods are a hell of a lot more powerful than 20th level characters, and they are also casters.
Are you suggesting that once a character hits 20th level, they should ascend to divinity automatically? Level 17 is the mark of divinity in my games.
Erastil, Asmodeus, Pharasma... Level 17-20.
Also I have Cayden Calean, Torag and Rovagug as pure martial. [Erastil is a Ranger style light casting martial.] Yeah, I agree with Ozy, you're playing a pretty different game. You're buffing even the casters at least for the last tier, if I understand you. And pulling the gods way down. (Or maybe the PC up even farther than I think.)
Nothing wrong with that, but I think it's skewing your viewpoint.
In Pathfinder, for example, things that don't even qualify as real gods run at 20th level + 10 Mythic Tiers. See Achaekek's stats. A full caster can totally take him. So at the very least full casters make one god look like a joke. And until you show me the other gods stats that can handle a level 20 full casters, I would say evidence points in favor of level 20 full casters being godlike in their power at the very least.
Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level.
There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics. I'm gonna need see to some stats. Mostly because we know the stats for the Mantis God Achaekek and a level 20 full caster would crush him with little effort. Furthermore, Lamashtu a demon lord could beat a god with some planning. And a level 20 Caster can easily beat the statted demon lords. So until you show me some stats for those gods, the lore of the setting rejects your premise. That's the point. There are specifically no statblocks for gods because of the power level disparity. Mortals can't hope to challenge them.
The Mantis god is not a god, but a demigod:
Quote: Yet the Mantis God is not a true god, but rather one of the first creatures given life by the gods. Heck, the Mantis God can't do jack to real gods.
Demonlords aren't gods. Any defeat or death of a god is purely narrative, since without statblocks, they are effectively invincible.
Lamashtu WAS a demon lord. No longer:
Quote: Lamashtu was once a mighty demon lord who became the first such entity to achieve true godhood. So, you're making a series of false assumptions to end up with a false conclusion.
_Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level.
There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics. I'm gonna need see to some stats. Mostly because we know the stats for the Mantis God Achaekek and a level 20 full caster would crush him with little effort. Furthermore, Lamashtu a demon lord could beat a god with some planning. And a level 20 Caster can easily beat the statted demon lords. So until you show me some stats for those gods, the lore of the setting rejects your premise. That's the point. There are specifically no statblocks for gods because of the power level disparity. Mortals can't hope to challenge them.
The Mantis god is not a god, but a demigod:
Quote: Yet the Mantis God is not a true god, but rather one of the first creatures given life by the gods. Heck, the Mantis God can't do jack to real gods.
Demonlords aren't gods. Any defeat or death of a god is purely narrative, since without statblocks, they are effectively invincible.
Lamashtu WAS a demon lord. No longer:
Quote: Lamashtu was once a mighty demon lord who became the first such entity to achieve true godhood. So, you're making a series of false assumptions to end up with a false conclusion. My conclusion is based on evidence drawn from the lore of the setting. Yours is based on "There is no evidence so I don't have to present any." I think it's clear my argument is superior.
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Anzyr wrote:
See Achaekek's stats. A full caster can totally take him. So at the very least full casters make one god look like a joke. And until you show me the other gods stats that can handle a level 20 full casters, I would say evidence points in favor of level 20 full casters being godlike in their power at the very least. To be fair to Paizo, they've since retconned that block to represent an avatar of Achaekek rather than the big guy proper which means he's now nicely folded into the other deities Cain style stat blocks of "You lose"
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kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it. OK. A 20th level character can kill a 1st level character with one hit. A god can kill a 20th level character with one hit.
Quote: Except all the level 17+ characters in my games match all those criterion.
Yeah, we already know you're not playing Pathfinder.
_Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it. OK. A 20th level character can kill a 1st level character with one hit. A god can kill a 20th level character with one hit.
Citation needed. Error 707 Statblock not found.
kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it.
Quote: There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics. Except all the level 17+ characters in my games match all those criterion.
Oh, one slight hoiserule though. I don't do 'god granted spells.' Divine magic is powered by faith, not the whim of some a@$+##@ in another plain. Right. Because you're not playing PF. Straight PF rules 17+ characters don't match those criteria.
Anzyr wrote:
My conclusion is based on evidence drawn from the lore of the setting. Yours is based on "There is no evidence so I don't have to present any." I think it's clear my argument is superior.
You got your lore wrong:
The statted Mantis God is not a god, it says so in the description.
Lamashtu is not a demon lord, but a god. It says so in the description
Therefore, the fact that Lamashtu can beat a god (another unsupported assumption) it doesn't mean that a demon lord can beat a god.
When your basic facts are wrong, it's hard to understand why you think your argument is superior.
thejeff wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it.
Quote: There is simply no comparison, power-wise, ability-wise, immortality-wise, the ability to grant spells, and about a dozen other metrics. Except all the level 17+ characters in my games match all those criterion.
Oh, one slight hoiserule though. I don't do 'god granted spells.' Divine magic is powered by faith, not the whim of some a@$+##@ in another plain. Right. Because you're not playing PF. Straight PF rules 17+ characters don't match those criteria. Divine Source disagrees with you.
_Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote:
My conclusion is based on evidence drawn from the lore of the setting. Yours is based on "There is no evidence so I don't have to present any." I think it's clear my argument is superior.
You got your lore wrong:
The statted Mantis God is not a god, it says so in the description.
Lamashtu is not a demon lord, but a god. It says so in the description
Therefore, the fact that Lamashtu can beat a god (another unsupported assumption) it doesn't mean that a demon lord can beat a god.
When your basic facts are wrong, it's hard to understand why you think your argument is superior. Lamashtu *was* a demon lord when she beat Curchanus. Do you actually know the lore?
Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it. OK. A 20th level character can kill a 1st level character with one hit. A god can kill a 20th level character with one hit.
Citation needed. Error 707 Statblock not found. Yeah, exactly.
_Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: kyrt-ryder wrote: see timestop and Gate and Shapechange Your obtuse comment doesn't change the fact that in Pathfinder, Gods are to 20th level characters as 20th level characters are to 1st level. Prove it. OK. A 20th level character can kill a 1st level character with one hit. A god can kill a 20th level character with one hit.
Citation needed. Error 707 Statblock not found. Yeah, exactly. Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything.
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Anzyr wrote: [
Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything.
Wrong, they are capable of everything.
Anzyr wrote: Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything. Nonsense, NPCs do things without statblocks all the time. Anybody who you don't plan on having to roll for anything doesn't need stats. Gods don't need to roll for anything since they always succeed.
_Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: [
Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything.
Wrong, they are capable of everything. *Citation needed.
Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: [
Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything.
Wrong, they are capable of everything. *Citation needed. Sure: Rule 0.
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Because the GM said so is a pretty good citation.
Anzyr wrote: So a Demon Lord beat a god. Like I said. And level 20 full casters can beat demon lords. Seriously, what part do you not get?
The part where you think the word 'was' == 'is'.
Seriously, I don't understand that. Can you explain, grammatically speaking, how words that mean two different things somehow mean the same thing?
I think once you explain that, all will become clear.
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Well there is an AP where a bunch of high level and mythic PCs have a chat with the local Iomaedae and from what I've heard second hand (don't actually own Wrath or have read it) PCs who continually talk smack or continually attempt to be hostile get "You losed." without all that attack roll, spell resistance, saving throw, or defined rules malark. So...there's a benchmark I guess.
_Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: [
Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything.
Wrong, they are capable of everything. *Citation needed. Sure: Rule 0. Rule 0 says nothing about it.
Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Anzyr wrote: [
Without a stat block a god is incapable of doing anything.
Wrong, they are capable of everything. *Citation needed. Sure: Rule 0. Rule 0 says nothing about it. On the contrary, it says everything about it.
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