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I would be interested if anyone else has thoughts on the matter. Should there be any practical difference in roles between classes. Are there any sacred cows that belong to one class that we wouldn't want others to have?
I think so. Everyone should have their schtick. I also think too much is lost in a discussion focusing on comparison/contrast between various classes. I'm firmly in the "give fighters more tools" crowd and even I think this discussion has become inane.
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Um, of course it isn't. It wasn't intended to be. The shield of swings addressed the 'use staff for cover', and when that failed to satisfy, it was pointed out that they can obtain cover from a tower shield.
...You DO see why the answer doesn't satisfy, right? Your suggestions are:
1.) Use Shield of Swings to provide +4 AC (which is not cover)
2.) Use a tower shield to provide cover (which is not a staff). And also suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks as a use of your action.
The flavor of 'catching a fireball' is closest to the ray shield feat, but of course, blocking magical rays 'isn't exactly what you asked for', so I'm sure it won't satisfy.
Because rays and fireballs aren't the same thing.
I'm talking about flavor because that's what most people are using to describe what they want.
No, they aren't. You are the one doing that. And only you.
If they want fighters to be able to counterspell or spell turn at will as an immediate action, then come out and say it.
Not the case.
Spell Turning doesn't work on AoE effects.
I'd also be satisfied with just negating the effects of an AoE on yourself, not others.
Don't talk about flavor.
I haven't been.
Leave it, it isn't worth begging someone to eplain themselves.
I would be interested if anyone else has thoughts on the matter. Should there be any practical difference in roles between classes. Are there any sacred cows that belong to one class that we wouldn't want others to have?
I don't really believe in Sacred Cows, but I do believe class identity should be maintained. I can't see a fighter shapechanging outside of maybe having a vein of options which might allow a fighter to turn into a specific form, but I've made abilities which let disguise based rogues shapechange. I don't think fighters should be binding outsiders, but I'm fine with them having an option which allows them to know a single outsider's true name.
I think martial classes could probably have a justification to learn any ability, but it would have to be handled in a specific way that works with the thematics of the class rather than just I can shapechange because "reasons".
Sacred Cows just leads to things like "you need a rogue on your team to deal with traps" and "Only clerics can be good at healing", which thankfully isn't true in Pathfinder.
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I'm currently kicking around an idea for a new campaign in which all (or maybe just most) magic that's intended for out-of-combat use is replaced by something like occult rituals, so "teleporting to the other continent" requires time, knowledge of the ritual, material components, and skill checks instead of spell slots.
I'm worried if this actually helps dedicated casters though, since you can just build around landing your SoD and not have to worry about utility.
...No.
Just because they are not exact suggestions on HOW to do those things does not mean it's just flavor. It is a mechanic that has not been fully realized. "Darken the sky with arrows" is absolutely a mechanical want. If it's just flavor, it has no mechanical impact, and is not worth mentioning as something you can do. That mechanic can be expressed in multiple ways. Increasing fire rate and creating a literal blocked sun, arrows imbued with a Darkness or Deeper Darkness effect, or something else.
The only way you can assume it's "just flavor" is if you ignore the entire flow of this conversation and make a direct attempt to pretend you don't know what the other person meant.
Um, of course it isn't. It wasn't intended to be. The shield of swings addressed the 'use staff for cover', and when that failed to satisfy, it was pointed out that they can obtain cover from a tower shield....You DO see why the answer doesn't satisfy, right? Your suggestions are:
1.) Use Shield of Swings to provide +4 AC (which is not cover)
2.) Use a tower shield to provide cover (which is not a staff). And also suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks as a use of your action.
The flavor of 'catching a fireball' is closest to the ray shield feat, but of course, blocking magical rays 'isn't exactly what you asked for', so I'm sure it won't satisfy.Because rays and fireballs aren't the same thing.
I'm talking about flavor because that's what most people are using to describe what they want.
No, they aren't. You are the one doing that. And only you.
If they want fighters to be able to counterspell or spell turn at will as an immediate action, then come out and say it.Not the case.
Spell Turning doesn't work on AoE effects.
I'd also be satisfied with just negating the effects of an AoE on yourself, not others.
Don't talk about flavor.I haven't been.'catching a fireball and throwing it back' is flavor since fireball isn't an object that can be either caught or thrown.
And no, it's isn't only me that's been talking about the flavor, that's been almost this entire thread. People want fighters to:
'darken the sky with arrows' -> fluff
shoot 20 arrows/round and lower light level by 1 step -> mechanic'close to the enemy in the blink of an eye' -> fluff
swift action dimension door -> mechanic
swift action 200' move -> mechanic'catch a fireball and throw it back' -> fluff
<no pathfinder mechanic exists>'disrupt a spell by cutting the words' -> fluff
use an AoO to force a concentration check within 120' -> mechanic...
I don't think you're addressing me, but my arguments are not along those veins. And here's the thing, is that if we want a 'realistic' fighter, we might as well throw the entire system out the window. Because there are only a few classes that obey reality, and all of them are martials. We're arguing about whether or not a normal human could do this kind of thing in a ruleset where people can bend the laws of reality with their mind or even MUSIC! Reality does not enter the process anywhere really.
When was the last time someone claimed lotr was the platinum standard?
Why do players of Pathfinder have an obsession with obtaining a mechanical advantage by having rules for every individual action in the game.
Legolas wants to slide down steps on a shield and attack the guy at the bottom... let him charge. He doesn't need to possess the Shield Rider feat!
If he wants to leap across the river by stepping on the heads of dwarves he makes a jump check with a circumstance modifier for having the dwarves heads as stepping stones.
These things are already covered under Pathfinder rules though,
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Lol, nice, but not quite a nuclear bomb.
Much like your solutions for those feats of prowess. :P
I don't really believe in Sacred Cows, but I do believe class identity should be maintained. I can't see a fighter shapechanging outside of maybe having a vein of options which might allow a fighter to turn into a specific form, but I've made abilities which let disguise based rogues shapechange.Maybe not a fighter, but I still want a full BAB non-casting martial shapeshifter.
Though if we're still mining Tolkein for martials - Beorn as a martial is one of the toughest fighters around in the third age.
The roar of [Beorn's] voice was like drums and guns; and he tossed wolves and goblins from his path like straws and feathers. He fell upon their rear, and broke like a clap of thunder through the ring. [...] [H]is wrath was redoubled, so that nothing could withstand him, and no weapon seemed to bite upon him. He scattered the [goblin] bodyguard, and pulled down Bolg himself and crushed him.
I always assumed he was a werebear fighter.
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To be fair, it does showcase "The Alot Elves are better than you at everything" trope that permeates the books.
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To be fair, it does showcase "TheAlotElves are better than you at everything" trope that permeates the books.
Mostly because Tolkien himself was actual a strident anti-industrialist, which is why the Orcs and Goblins are portrayed similar to industrialists of the time. And why the old fey of mythology, neutral if not outright evil, became heroes and suddenly became paragons of virtue.
I prefer the old mythology ones myself. Make great horror game villains.
I think Pathfinder has plenty of mechanics that I'd say would work thematically for the Fighter. Cavalier Orders, Ki Pool Abilities, Combat Stamina, Martial Flexibility, Judgments, Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage... there's a lot that can be mined here.When people talk about 'buffing martials', what exactly are they suggesting?
I see talk about One punch man, suggesting that letting high level fighters effectively fly and do thousands of HP of damage with one hit is about right...
Is there anything high level fighters shouldn't be able to do? It seems like vague suggestions at the moment, how about some more concrete proposals?
Unfortunately at the cost of class identity. Which is a whole other can of worms on it's own.
As long as Lord of the Rings keeps being invoked as the platinum-iridium standard for Fighters, how would you recommend someone goes about doing all those stunts Legolas was doing in the movies? (Preferably without too much risk of having to keep rolling acrobatics checks until a 1 and getting splatted by 20 orcs' AoOs.)
Yeah, there is WAY too much going on in this thread with Aragorn and the LotR. I mean, it was an OK series, but I wouldn't consider Strider some paragon of fighting ability.
ThisBecause we do want it to be a martial power - moving very quickly rather than teleporting.In my case try more like 2000 feet movement rate.Why not just an extended range dimension door. That way you don't have to worry about difficult terrain, enemies in the way, and other obstacles.
Extended range Dimension Door has a benefit that trumps that though.
Bookkeeping.
Tracking every line, turn, and diagonal movement square of a 2000 foot base movement speed is tedious and time consuming. How many squares are halved by difficult terrain or squeezing? How many AoOs do you provoke (or tumble checks you need to make)? How many doors are in the way that might stop your movement cold?
It's a neat idea but way too much extra work for little extra benefit.
Barring debatable political references, elves are better than humans because they are immortal, and after several hundred years as warriors, many having faced hordes of balrogs, dragons and orcs, and don't have some fairness police trying to keep a 500 year old battle veteran on par with a 17 year old farmboy.
An Orc, created in Angband, by the demigod servants of Morgoth has to be a first level monster because 40 years ago someone decided that was what they are.
Class identity in Pathfinder is an odd thing. I'm currently going through every single class allowed in my campaign and seeing what archetypes and options they'd need to take to all become "monks", and so far the only issue is "village mystic who rides atop a ghost turtle, striking foes with his tiger fork" (the cavalier) is abit too far from monk than I'd prefer.
There really isn't anything I'm uncomfortable with Martials learning, if you read the second post in my link you'd see the valkyrie gains a dorm of summonong at level 17 [and breath of life]So, your solutions is to make everyone a 'caster'?
Can a high level martial obtain a wish ability?
For the folks who complain that casters outshine non-casters it does sound like E6 (not E8, E12, or anything higher) is the game they should be playing. Or perhaps since the vast majority of campaigns end by level 12 or so... it simply isn't the bubonic plauge level of problem that some might make it out to be.
From what I've seen though, ultra high level campaigns... those that go above 15 are so idiosyncratic that making general assumptions is risky at best.
Unless the people who complain like high-level games and want martials to shine just as well there.There really isn't anything I'm uncomfortable with Martials learning, if you read the second post in my link you'd see the valkyrie gains a dorm of summonong at level 17 [and breath of life]So, your solutions is to make everyone a 'caster'?
Can a high level martial obtain a wish ability?
For the folks who complain that casters outshine non-casters it does sound like E6 (not E8, E12, or anything higher) is the game they should be playing. Or perhaps since the vast majority of campaigns end by level 12 or so... it simply isn't the bubonic plauge level of problem that some might make it out to be.
From what I've seen though, ultra high level campaigns... those that go above 15 are so idiosyncratic that making general assumptions is risky at best.
To get what they want though, you have to take a hacksaw to the capabilities of casters... or start playing DragonBall Z D20. Because you're either talking about eliminating the capabilities of spellcasters or making your fighters the equivalent of those spellcasters.
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To get what they want though, you have to take a hacksaw to the capabilities of casters... or start playing DragonBall Z D20.
I heard the Z20 system takes forever and a half to finish any notable combat, though.
Unless the people who complain like high-level games and want martials to shine just as well there.There really isn't anything I'm uncomfortable with Martials learning, if you read the second post in my link you'd see the valkyrie gains a dorm of summonong at level 17 [and breath of life]So, your solutions is to make everyone a 'caster'?
Can a high level martial obtain a wish ability?
For the folks who complain that casters outshine non-casters it does sound like E6 (not E8, E12, or anything higher) is the game they should be playing. Or perhaps since the vast majority of campaigns end by level 12 or so... it simply isn't the bubonic plauge level of problem that some might make it out to be.
From what I've seen though, ultra high level campaigns... those that go above 15 are so idiosyncratic that making general assumptions is risky at best.
By making them into hybrids - which exist in droves anyway. Its mystifying.
To get what they want though, you have to take a hacksaw to the capabilities of casters... or start playing DragonBall Z D20.I heard the Z20 system takes forever and a half to finish any notable combat, though.
Considering that the show would take an average of 10 episodes to do the average battle.... after one episode of nothing but trashtalk and power up :)
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You assume I use grids or maps.
You also assume I don't use anti-teleport effects.
Sorry, I'll make sure to keep your hitherto unmentioned houserules on how movement works in mind in the future. :rolleyes:
Unfortunately at the cost of class identity. Which is a whole other can of worms on it's own.I think Pathfinder has plenty of mechanics that I'd say would work thematically for the Fighter. Cavalier Orders, Ki Pool Abilities, Combat Stamina, Martial Flexibility, Judgments, Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage... there's a lot that can be mined here.When people talk about 'buffing martials', what exactly are they suggesting?
I see talk about One punch man, suggesting that letting high level fighters effectively fly and do thousands of HP of damage with one hit is about right...
Is there anything high level fighters shouldn't be able to do? It seems like vague suggestions at the moment, how about some more concrete proposals?
Class identity? At this point in Pathfinder you can probably count on one hand the number class features that have actually remained exclusive to one particular class. Between archtypes, feats, prcs, traits, etc there's very very little left a class can claim as its own.
Besides, out of all the classes out there Fighters have virtually no identity ostentatiously because that's the point. (Unless your point was giving fighters identifying features would kill their identity as the class with minimal identity in which case disregard).
Which is what I meant by the can of worms. There practically is none, and I just dislike copied abilities. I really feel they could have gone for some of the concepts of those archetypes without copying class abilities wholesale.
For the folks who complain that casters outshine non-casters it does sound like E6 (not E8, E12, or anything higher) is the game they should be playing. Or perhaps since the vast majority of campaigns end by level 12 or so... it simply isn't the bubonic plauge level of problem that some might make it out to be.
From what I've seen though, ultra high level campaigns... those that go above 15 are so idiosyncratic that making general assumptions is risky at best.
To get what they want though, you have to take a hacksaw to the capabilities of casters... or start playing DragonBall Z D20. Because you're either talking about eliminating the capabilities of spellcasters or making your fighters the equivalent of those spellcasters.
Okay, so we should just accept that playing the game above level 6 is something that the Martial just cannot do effectively? As for high-level games, me and the groups I'm in routinely do games starting at level 8 or 10, so ending by level 12 is not likely.
You know, with all the people talking about how high level Pathfinder play should only ever be Saitama-esque dudes with flashy, planet-shaking superpowers, it got me thinking: a few pages back, we in the M/CD crowd kept on crowing about how--looking at how hitpoints scale--a high level Fighter could easily survive a terminal velocity fall. In fact, we kept harping on the math on that over and over to make our point (me included).
Well, IMHO, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's throw a Balor out of an airplane.
(After hitting him with Hold Monster and Dimensional Anchor, of course. Wouldn't want the subject messing up the experiment by trying to run away.)
20d6 averages to 75 damage. Take off 15 for his DR, leaves us with somewhere in the neighborhood 50 to his actual hitpoints shaved off for a given fall. So hey, he certainly survived, right?
Right, but it was absolutely a noticeable hit. That's over 10% of his max HP gone. Seven or eight more hits with that level of force, and this Balor is going to be in serious trouble. Which means that if your character is killing a Balor in one or two rounds of full attacks, then you've got about a (vaguely) rough parity going on in terms of the damage delivered by the individual blows to the individual falls.
So to those of you who are getting on The Sword's case for having the temerity to want to play to level 20 without his characters' strikes necessarily being able to wreck the local ecology, or other crazy stuff like that, my question would be this: about how many ecological disasters can you name that have been caused by the sheer kinetic force of someone falling out of an airplane at terminal velocity?
'Cause really, that's (very roughly speaking) all the kinetic force you need behind your individual blows to kill a CR20 threat like that in fairly short order.
Meanwhile, the attacks of the likes of Saitama eclipse that benchmark so utterly it isn't even a comparison. If a character...
Actually, DR only blocks damage from attacks .
Falling isn't the ground attacking you.So DR doesn't help.
Okay, so we should just accept that playing the game above level 6 is something that the Martial just cannot do effectively? As for high-level games, me and the groups I'm in routinely do games starting at level 8 or 10, so ending by level 12 is not likely.
No.. I'd say it's rather we have a proponderance of GM's who can't make the requisite shift in methodology that's mandatory in running a game where characters average 18th level as opposed to 8. For my part, I've played in a few high level games, and the players of the martials did not feel deprived and useless. However there does seem to be groups of players who can't help but have a miserable experience in high level play. E6 seems to have been created for such players, possibly by such players.
Because YES. Spellcasters can and will break the game when DM's don't enforce the rules strictly... or allow Tippyverse scale dodges in interpreting the rules of magic. This game can not run in strict adherence to RAW... and it was never meant to.
Jeff,
Legolas wasn't matched against farmboys. Aragorn was Dunedain, and likely well over 100 years old, and very experienced. Borimir it was the greatest hero of his people, son of the steward of Gondor. Gimli was hardly a child, likely also well over 100 years, and was likely a seriously experienced warrior, after all, he was at the council. They were all heroes by right.
You have a rather different definition of reality than I do.I don't think you're addressing me, but my arguments are not along those veins. And here's the thing, is that if we want a 'realistic' fighter, we might as well throw the entire system out the window. Because there are only a few classes that obey reality, and all of them are martials. We're arguing about whether or not a normal human could do this kind of thing in a ruleset where people can bend the laws of reality with their mind or even MUSIC! Reality does not enter the process anywhere really.Martials, and even base fighters, stop being 'realistic' after only a few levels, so nobody, and I mean nobody is arguing that we need to adhere to reality.The Sword is.
It might be Marvel Cinematic Universe reality with nonpowered badasses like Hawkeye and Black Widow, but its reality.
Precisely!
There is a big difference between a guy who can fire three arrows simultaneous at different targets. A feat of skill that it would be preposterous to suggest could come from a normal medieval bow - however its fine by me, because we can conceive that a hero could train to do that however unlikely.
I wouldn't want to see the same archer phase those arrows through a wall to hit the foe on the other side because it breaks reality rather than bends it.
I require internal consistancy in my game worlds.