Have you ever found yourself disgruntled with the standard 3.X ruleset? Martial Caster Disparity, Magic Item Dependency or Material [rather than Option] Bloat getting you down?
Perhaps getting five people together is a challenge and you'd find it easier to play with four in total [one to run and three to play]?
I may have the solution you're looking for.
Over the past half-decade I've been refining what began as houserules and has evolved into an entire alternate ruleset to address these problems.
Moving forward I will be linking from this thread into my website as I publish rules; you are all welcome- nay- encouraged to critique and playtest them ruthlessly. The more support, the greater odds of a successful launch and the better the final product will become.
If it has a non-Vancian magic system and a rules set that doesn't favor the brute warrior as the end-all be-all of fighting types... perhaps. But then, I've cranked up nearly my own system before as well and came up against the problem that in my group of players it's tough to tell what they will and won't take a risk on.
How are you defining Vancian? I'm using the existing spell catalog nut include Spontaneous and Mana options in addition to Preparation.
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a rules set that doesn't favor the brute warrior as the end-all be-all of fighting types...
Nope, near-infinite variation on viable characters.
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I've cranked up nearly my own system before as well and came up against the problem that in my group of players it's tough to tell what they will and won't take a risk on.
Can you elaborate? What sort of risk are you talking about?
Note: first update coming later today after the day job.
How are you defining Vancian? I'm using the existing spell catalog nut include Spontaneous and Mana options in addition to Preparation.
Ah... the existing spell catalogue is part of what I have the problem with. It's always a Fireball, never a Frostball or an Acidball. Or rather, it can be if you spend feats to achieve the effect... not that it will make it a more powerful effect. It's always a Hold Person, not a more powerful Sleep spell. I'd like a system where some customization and personalization of spells was possible. I'm also not a fan of the current memorization method that hamstrings too many spellcasters so they have to parcel their efforts out so cautiously in encounters, as there are typically more rounds of combat within a day than there are spells offered to a spellcaster. Having a class where the character has rounds where they can do nothing that focuses on their class strength never seemed like a good idea to me.
So at last, I get to see this mystery system mods of yours!
For the sake of democracy, I'd love to see all characters with a same XP total show similar overall grades in problem solving...
How are you defining Vancian? I'm using the existing spell catalog nut include Spontaneous and Mana options in addition to Preparation.
Ah... the existing spell catalogue is part of what I have the problem with. It's always a Fireball, never a Frostball or an Acidball. Or rather, it can be if you spend feats to achieve the effect... not that it will make it a more powerful effect. It's always a Hold Person, not a more powerful Sleep spell. I'd like a system where some customization and personalization of spells was possible. I'm also not a fan of the current memorization method that hamstrings too many spellcasters so they have to parcel their efforts out so cautiously in encounters, as there are typically more rounds of combat within a day than there are spells offered to a spellcaster. Having a class where the character has rounds where they can do nothing that focuses on their class strength never seemed like a good idea to me.
A bit off-topic, but Spheres of Power does allow e.g. to specialize in acid attacks of all kinds. No metamagic needed. It also provides at-will attacks along with going nova via spending spell points, which are limited and replenished at rest. So that might be an option for you which is closer to the Paizo baseline.
Eliminating/overhauling system assumptions such as the Christmas Tree and Combat Rating? Sign me up. I will contribute and criticize where appropriate.
The bad news, I don't have a Shiny Website complete and ready to start linking you guys to [that's my bad, I didn't really start focusing on it until I started this thread] but after seeming-progress yesterday evening and failure, I've handed it off to a tech-guy friend of mine and will be linking tomorrow.
In the meantime let's get a bit of discussionfounda. I'm pasting my Tiers of Play [a foundational understanding of how the game evolves through the levels] and will follow it with three martial concepts I've used in another thread on these boards the past few days.
The listed examples are only martial characters, Full Casters fit naturally into the Tiers by virtue of Spell Levels, Partial Casters [6th spell level access in PF] fit in an inbetween zone where they essentially cap out 1 tier down in both martial and magical prowess, but have access to both fields.
Tier 1 levels 1-4::
Realistic: these are the levels where people rise up to face their fears
Examples include Mad Martigan from Willow, Conan from Weird Tales, Aragorn from Lord of the Ring, Ashram from Record of Lodos War, Golden Era Guts from Berserk
Tier 2 levels 5-8:
Heroic: these are the levels wherein people become legends and surpass their limits.
Examples include Lu Bu from Romance of the Nine Kingdoms, Guts The Black Swordsman from Berserk, Daryuun the Black Knight from Heroic Legend of Arslan, Matrim Cauthon from Wheel of Time.
Tier 3 levels 9-12:
Mythical/Wuxia: these are the levels when physics break under the strain of awesome.
Samurai Jack, Hero, Beowulf, Spiderman
Tier 4 levels 13-16:
Demigod: These levels are the path to divinity, where people begin to become gods.
Durandel-equipped-Sir Roland, Cu Chulainn, Herakles, Might Guy
Tier 5 levels 17-20:
Divine These levels are the trials of Divinity, where gods alone do tread.
Examples include Thor, Odin, Karna, Saitama, Furinji Hayato? [I hestitate on Furinji. IF he makes it in he's only level 17] and possibly Sun Wukong [hesitant on this one due to recent revelation he has a bit more magic than I was aware of, but let's chalk that up to Mythic ontop of being a 5th Tier character.]
Bear in mind, these are only three potential options often there are a solid handful of different ways to interpret a character's evolution up through the tiers.
The first one is going to be more supernatural than the others by virtue of her character
Astrid of the Valkyrie:
The Sword wrote:
Astrid was chosen of the Valkyri, she fought with a long sword taken from the barrow of the last king of the seal-folk. She was the guardian of the Jarl's daughter and a key adviser to the Jarl (my character). Build wise she was fighter with specialising in shield and two weapon - high AC, large numbers of attacks with a fair few methods of adding combat manouvers. Medium hit points. Would generally tank and debuff key enemies.
Astrid of the Valkyrie
Tier 1: Pretty standard Sword and Board combatant.
Tier 2: Starts to show signs of the Valkyrie's blessings. She's 'lighter' on her feet when she wants to be, but solid as a rock when she needs to be. Excels in combat maneuvers and mobility and actually delivers those 'large numbers of attacks' while moving about the battlefield.
Also shows signs of advanced tactical acumen, gaining the ability to subtly guide the battle according to her will as a Valkyrie Candidate.
Tier 3: becomes a Valkyrie-in-the-making, gaining wings, greater battle sense and superior perception of both sides of a conflict, what they're doing and what is happening to them. Furthermore, her weapons bond to her, gaining the ability to be thrown as accurately/freely as Captain America's Shield or Zena's Chakram and always return to the point of her choosing immediately after the attack sequence.
Gains her choice of a Raven Familiar or a Wolf Animal Companion. The wolf comes with Air Walk as a Spell Like Ability.
Tier 4: ascends and becomes a Vakyrie, gaining immense physical power and resilience, as well as minor influence over causality. Valkyrie hold the power to 'Choose the Slain' and as such she gains the ability to force rerolls, both for the benefit of herself and her allies and to the detriment of her enemies.
Tier 5: transcends Valkyrie, becoming Goddess over the Valkyrie, with the ability to call on the aid of a small squad of Valkyrie as needed, and the ability to 'Choose the slain' and outright reject the death of those she cherishes [within certain limits of course. Basically an At-Will Breath of Life.]
By the 5th Tier her mobility and physical power are immense, flying to the opposite end of the world should take less than an hour. Were she to truly do battle to her utmost limit with enemies of equal power, the ecology would be devastated... if the geology survived.
In Golarion terms she becomes the left hand of Pharasma. [The hand that does the dirty work. The right hand revolves around life and birth and such.]
Henry the Swashbuckler:
The Sword wrote:
Henry Avery was a swashbuckler, captain of the Wormwood who was incredibly mobile did large amounts of damage and debuffed enemies. He defeated several BBEG's single handed because of high AC/Dex and debuffs. Including a magus who was several levels higher than him.
Henry the Swashbuckler
Tier 1: Pretty standard buckler of swashes, stabs, repositions, trips, dirty tricks and disarms and doesn't afraid of anything.
Tier 2: Mobility and trick moves continue to escalate, reaching levels of great renkown. Enemies frequently find themselves comletely clowned and at the mercy of Henry and his allies. Beginning in this tier and escalating as he grows in level, Henry begins to develop and later master the art of interrupting enemies and intercepting them from whatever task they were attempting.
Tier 3: It all continues to escalate, now with Henry capable of running up walls, balancing on the very tips of tree branches and lightly leaping off the surface of water before gravity can pull him into it. His bladework is incredible, capable of deflecting swarms of arrows coming his way and shattering incoming energy attacks [be they spells, supernatural abilities or something else.]
Tier 4: Fancy footwork has become ghostly perplexing tracks, moving in the space when the enemy blinks, Henry can almost appear to teleport with his incredible speed. Injuries caused by his blade resist closing even with magical healing and the excess force of his thrusts carries beyond any enemy slain by them, injuring enemies behind the target if desired. Balance has become so good that even water will support him, and he is capable of making one leap off the air per level gained within the tier before coming to a landing on something.
Tier 5: Achieving the peak of his skill as a swashbuckler, Henry now moves as though he were a bolt of lightning covering immense distance while delivering his rapid assaults or concentrated power thrusts. Sidestepping is second nature to him and there is no substance which cannot support his weight, the very air itself included.
Adelbert the Archer:
The Sword wrote:
The Sword wrote:
Adelbert was a ranger specialising in bow in a typical above ground journey adventure (with several dungeons) His feats meant he could deal huge amounts of damage every round wherever he wanted while still being tough enough to take damage if he needed to. His sheer damage output was enough to drop many enemies before they got to act and he would pick targets where they were most needed.
Note- through all the tiers Adelbert's physical speed is progressively improving up to eventually ridiculous levels. Whether that also translates into very good battlefield agility or if he's more of a semi-stationary artillery platform that can reposition very fast is between his player and his GM.
Adelbert the Archer
Tier 1: (William Tell Level) Standard Bowman type, shoots the arrows that make the peoples fall down.
Range increment in feet
Tier 2: (Film Legolas Level) reaching the absolute peaks of mundane trickshottery, Adelbert can now shoot ricochets off hard targets, make shots that arc to one side or another [similar to curveballs in baseball] making soft cover and and perform all manner of combat maneuvers at range. Arrow-Pinning, Arrow Tripping, Arrow Bullrush, Arrow Sunder and even Arrow Reposition.
Range increment in meters
Tier 3: (Bow Wuxia/The very best comic performance of Hawkeye and The Green Arrow Level) Adelbert has surpassed the limits of a wooden bow, upgrading to Bronze [and Bronze cable for the string] and in the process unleashing vastly more potential and power. Penetrating Shots make 'Line' effects out of arrows, Scattershots detonate on exiting the first target in a cone in the direction they were travelling, Shattershots crumble into fragments on impact with the target the strike, expanding into their body directly like grapeshot from a cannon with only a firing chamber and no barrel. Furthermore, he can 'Manyshot' multiple different targets visible in the same direction, each with the same precision as if he'd chosen a single target.
Gains the ability to counter incoming projectiles with his arrows.
Partial Concealment has no effect on him within the first range increment.
Range increment in Decameters
Tier 4 (Atalanta from Greek Myth level, Fast enough to be compared to the Messenger of the Gods by other athletes, Badass enough with a bow to be compared to the Goddess of the Hunt by other bowmen, yet not actually quite to that level on either front): Adelbert has surpassed the limits of a Bronze bow, evolving his bowmanship yet again in the process of transitioning to a Steel Bow.
Even the mightiest of trees shatters if shot by one of Adelbert's arrows, unless he shot with the intent to shoot through it, in which case the arrow slides through like a hot knife through butter leaving a channel no larger in diameter than the arrow itself.
Hard Targets [trees, armored knights, stone walls, etc] can be detonated intentionally as a form of bomb. Soft Targets of sufficient size or quantity can be detonated as a Fog/Cloud type of field effect.
By this point, even full concealment has no effect on him within the first range increment.
Range increment in Hectometers
Tier 5: (End-Of-Growth-progression-Karna level) Surpassing the limits of a Steel bow, Adelbert has transitioned to the use of an Adamantine Bow, taking his place alongside Erastil as one of the greatest archers.
Obstacles that can block his aim or his arrows no longer exist, neither adamantine walls nor walls of force of any depth can block his bow.
The mere act of firing the bow creates a powerful shockwave, this shockwave is greater without a nocked arrow to absorb the force and can be used in a number of ways in battle.
Jo is a character that took part in a pre-alpha play test.
Basically my abilities revolved around rapid customized body growth.
I could grow my arms together to make a single two handed weapon or cause my legs to grow longer to increase my speed.
I had a set pool of how many times i could do that, but that pool refreshed after 5 minutes of rest.
I was a purely martial character but I could replicate and self affecting spell through creative use of my ability.
I loved the moment where I had to get through the roof of a warehouse so I basically turned my arms into a can opener :P.
Fun times
Huh, looks like everyone following is pretty much in agreement with the Tiers of Play, since discussion's been so quiet.
While we wait on my tech guy to come through later today, are there any characters [published or from a PF campaign] you guys would like to see Eclipsed as the examples above?
I have always spoken about alpha as very minimal engine testing. BETA having an almost finished system. Considering we had to expand the rules quite a bit as we went I figured it would best be called pre alpha
It's been brought to my attention that the present presentation isn't very user friendly. In the short term, I'll provide links to each of the new content items and encourage discussion here.
I like the explicit definition of tiers - that can only help manage expectations around the table.
It's hard to comment further - the first thing I always do to evaluate a system is roll up two characters and make them fight each other.
From a publishing point of view, I think you should be careful using phrasing like "Compatible with pathfinder adventures" since you can't use the PF Compatibility license if it's a standalone system (which this seems to be). So if you're going to use the OGL (my presumption?) you aren't allowed to indicate compatibility with another system without a separate, standalone license.
I know that's all the boring stuff, but I figure it will be a pain to go back and edit everything out if you end up publishing under the OGL and not using the PFCompatibility License - may as well make the edits as you go (presuming this IS a standalone system).
I do have a question. Do you think this is worth learning for those of us who do like 'limited by realism' games? Is there much tweaking you've done that comes into play at the 1-4/5-8 tiers?
From a publishing point of view, I think you should be careful using phrasing like "Compatible with pathfinder adventures" since you can't use the PF Compatibility license if it's a standalone system (which this seems to be). So if you're going to use the OGL (my presumption?) you aren't allowed to indicate compatibility with another system without a separate, standalone license.
This is a tricky question I've been wrestling with myself. The game is built on Pathfinder CR under the expectation of facing Pathfinder Monsters [quite possibly within Pathfinder Adventures] and uses the PF Spells and Feats as starting points in the framework set up for GMs.
I figured for now I could use the Community Use Policy and worry about licensing [or rewording] when I determined a monetization strategy.
I do have a question. Do you think this is worth learning for those of us who do like 'limited by realism' games? Is there much tweaking you've done that comes into play at the 1-4/5-8 tiers?
I can guarantee it is worth reading, the Archetypes I've replaced classes with and the guidelines for character design would be assets to groups playing at any tier.
Whether or not its worth the time/effort investment to learn it is a decision only you can make after reading it.
