The Tien nations are just so huge compared to itty bitty Avistan. The size of Nagajor or Minkai, to say nothing of Lingshen!
You know the place is big when the map's scale bar goes up to eleven 1,000.
The vector map now has forests for Tian Xia!And now the tile map, and with it globe, have Tian Xia forests as well as the new Crown of the World layers. The globe is particularly handy for the Crown!
love the globe map
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The "original" interactive map seems to have lost its lakes. Or is it just me?
They show up for me. This map puts a heavy burden on the browser so it can be quirky. Also the recent move to use caching might be causing a hiccup. Try a Shift+reload and see if that helps?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, Dazalin Marsh now looks different from the bay it adjoins (no cache clearing needed on my end).
I am making progress on Sekamania. POI's and settlements are now in place. As with Nar-Voth, the only hiccup is the Earthnavel. Fortunately the tunnel leading to it is a spur of its own with no other connections so I made the executive decision to add a spur running from the "old" location of the Earthnavel to the new one. That leaves the existing secondary tunnel where it is, but connects the "new" Earthnavel ascent/descent to Sekamania.
Orv will be less of an issue. Both the new and old Earthnavel locations drop into Deep Tolguth, just on different sides of the underground river.
I am not forcing ascent points in Sekamania to line up with the descents from Nar-Voth. They aren't perfectly aligned on the maps, and I don't think they need to be: there's no reason to assume that the connections between layers are perfectly vertical, especially given the distances involved.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I proudly present to you: Sekamania
GIS data layers should get uploaded this weekend. The one non-canonical part is the spur leading to the Earthnavel, as previously discussed.
Thanks! I will fix this.
Should be "Sekamina".
Ack! I keep making that mistake. Half my data layers were named right and half weren't. I got that corrected, too.
Wow. I cannot thank you enough for doing this!
Mighty cartographers do either of you have an at least semi-accurate square milege count of taldor. If you do that would be incredibly kushty.
Many Thanks Anyway.
EtG
Mighty cartographers do either of you have an at least semi-accurate square milege count of taldor.
Taldor is about 242,900 square miles.
Thanks
OK, everyone: it is time for a judgement call. See the linked image of Deep Tolguth and the Earthnavel.
It's a small image but it doesn't need to be big to show the issue: the new location for the Earthnavel is actually "outside" Deep Tolguth on the Orv map. I would like some input on what to do about this. I see four options:
1. Leave the ascent point directly under the Earthnavel, and create a non-canon tunnel to connect it to Orv.
2. Move the ascent point to the Earthnavel to just inside Deep Tolguth. The lateral shift from the Earthnavel to this new point would be about 10 km to the SW (moving the ascent point shown on the map 35 km to the NE if you prefer to think of it that way). It would also put the ascent on the other side of the underground river.
3. Leave the ascent where it's shown on the map. This would mean the lateral shift from the Earthnavel to the ascent point is about 45 km.
4. Extend the vault of Deep Tolguth to include the new location for the ascent to the Earthnavel.
Here are my thoughts:
I prefer Option #2. These ascent/descent points do move laterally between layers, but most shift only 4 to 5 km. The descent from Sekamina into the Midnight Mountains, however, moves 11 km. So Option #2 has a precedent for a shift on the order of 10km. This would be a compromise solution that maintains the accuracy of the later Inner Sea maps without breaking Orv canon too badly.
Option #3 would obviously be the most "accurate" for Orv, but I've not respected the "old" Earthnavel ascent/descent point to date and have had to make a few non-canonical changes to accommodate the new point already. So, making a 45 km shift, for which there is no precedent, just to keep the Orv map "accurate" doesn't seem right.
Option #1 is a non-starter, I think. The Earthnavel is supposed to descend into Deep Tolguth.
I dislike Option #4 even more.
Opinions?
2. Move the ascent point to the Earthnavel to just inside Deep Tolguth. The lateral shift from the Earthnavel to this new point would be about 10 km to the SW
Correction: this is a distance of 15 km.
I believe that Eathnavel doesn't even directly reach Nar-Voth, though it is connected with it with tunnels. The only direct connection between Orv and the surface is the Pit of Gormuz.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I haven't read it so maybe someone who has can chime in, but Called to Darkness supposedly describes an expedition from the surface, through the Earthnavel, and into Deep Tolguth.
I was going to mention that novel. It portrayed many many miles of tunnels with multiple branches leading down to Nar Voth and then ever greater distances down to each new level... rather than some sort of straight passage down from the Earthnavel (Chapter 7) to Deep Tolguth (Chapter 17).
Now, that isn't necessarily 'canon', and even if accurate the descent into Deep Tolguth could still be directly below the Earthnavel... just with a lot of back and forth required to get there. However, it is also consistent with the descriptions I have read in various campaign setting books... the Earthnavel leads down to tunnels in Nar Voth rather than being a continuous descent in to Orv. Thus, a somewhat sizable offset between the two locations isn't necessarily 'ruled out'.
That said, my own theory has been that there was previously a more direct route which allowed megafauna from Deep Tolguth to reach and populate the surface. However, that passage (or series of such) has long since collapsed. That would argue for keeping a closer alignment between the two locations.
I would suggest a 5th option... move Deep Tolguth. The Earthnavel should remain fixed in location relative to the numerous surface features around it. Deep Tolguth is much less 'grounded' by surrounding landmarks. Ergo, I would just move it to retain the published orientation with the Earthnavel and adjust the surrounding 'tunnel sketches' as needed to fit.
If you overlay the three Darklands maps on top of one another, the dots that represent the Earthnavel descent are pretty much in the same place. From Nar-Voth to Sekamina, it shifts NE about 6 km, but the Sekamina and Orv maps have the dots in almost exactly the same position. All three maps have the Earthnavel ascent directly above the Deep Tolguth vault.
The ISWG, on p 107, describes the Earthnavel thusly:
At the bottom of the pit is a small, human-sized opening that the locals call the sipapu, or Earthnavel, a stony umbilicus to an older, more primordial world. This series of tunnels is inhabited by feral beasts and the ghosts of fur-clad warriors from a bygone age—those who follow the Earthnavel to its deepest point come to a mysterious realm far below known in certain works as “Deep Tolguth”—a lost world ruled by dinosaurs, troglodytes, and stranger beasts.
So the Eartnavel is supposed to drop all the way down to Deep Tolguth in some fashion. Since the dots on the map now have it emerging inside the vault, that would be my preference. But I can be convinced of other options such as the tunnel idea suggested by BobTheCoward.
Moving the Deep Tolguth vault on the map would address the issue, but would require a lot of non-canonical changes to surrounding tunnels. And rivers. And water bodies. We've done worse things, I suppose. But...I'd need convincing that it's a better option. I'd prefer to make fewer changes to canon.
At the bottom of the pit is a small mansized opening that the locals call the sipapu, or Earthnavel, an umbilicus to an older, more primordial world. (...) Passing through the sipapu, one enters a stretch of freezing tunnels that extend down to Nar-Voth. Evidence of collapses indicates that larger tunnels once existed that extended deeper into the Darklands, as well as connecting to the Earthnavel caverns at the surface and perhaps providing an entry for the many prehistoric beasts that still roam the frozen plains.
Basing on this I believe that Earthnavel doesn't reach Nar-Voth, though the tunnels leading from it do. Also looking on the maps (Into the Darklands p. 26, 38 and 46) I don't see any passage between Nar-Voth and Sekamina in this place. There's a route up from Nar-Voth (that's the Earthnavel), a route down from Sekamina and a route up from Deep Tolguth (those two are connected). But I see no evidence of a route down from Nar-Voth or a route up from Sekamina. The description of the Earthnavel that I cited suggests that such route existed in the past, but it has collapsed.
Also
Pit of Gormuz (...) Regardless of the veracity of its claimed origins, the Pit of Gormuz remains unique among entrances to the Darklands, for it alone provides direct access to the lowest realm of Orv.
Basing on this I believe that Earthnavel doesn't reach Nar-Voth, though the tunnels leading from it do. Also looking on the maps (Into the Darklands p. 26, 38 and 46) I don't see any passage between Nar-Voth and Sekamina in this place.
Well this just complicated things, then, since the ISWG implies that the Earthnavel goes all the way down.
Either way, though, we still have the problem of the Sekamina tunnel down, and where it comes out in Orv, given the change in the Earthnavel's location.
OK. From all this, it does sound like the Earthnavel descent stops in Nar-Voth, and resumes again in Sekamina, with no direct connection between those two levels. Which, looking back, is actually how I was showing things in Nar-Voth already. So I need to correct my Sekamina layer.
This conversation right here is exactly what I was looking for: clarity and advice. It is much appreciated!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
This actually lets me leave the Sekamania descent in the old location, as Garrett suggests, and prevents the need for new tunnels in either Orv or Sekamina at all. Which, Garrett, is what you are hinting at, yes?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Welcome to Orv. Please enjoy your stay.
I am behind on getting data layers published, mostly because making the little preview images for the distribution page takes time. In order to expedite the process I may just post the layers and put off the images until later.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Printable Inner Sea Map (3.55 MB)
This is still a work in progress, but it's getting closer to its final look. It's designed to print on ARCH E size paper, or about 36" wide (35" with margins). At that width it's just under 39" tall. One could, in theory, split it into 15 sheets of letter-sized paper.
I'll probably have to remove some lesser points of interest and cities from Ustalav and Osirion just because they are so dense. Still to come are river labels, and general feature labels like mountain ranges, oceans, and seas. And, I am going to tackle the country borders layer sometime in the next week (it's more than just an alignment problem: some country borders differ, often times significantly, between various Paizo maps).
Disputed border territories don't necessarily need to be rationalized. Perhaps there are simply border disputes and both countries lay claim to the land.
Disputed border territories don't necessarily need to be rationalized. Perhaps there are simply border disputes and both countries lay claim to the land.
True, though the largest issues are with countries at the edge of the map. The northern border for the Lands of the Linnorm Kings that's shown on page 7 of the Inner Sea World Guide, for instance, doesn't encompass Turvik. It's different on p104, stretching farther north, and different again in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings campaign setting book. Taldor has similar issues with its eastern border.
It's a matter of picking the most sensible borders and going with that.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
the largest issues are with countries at the edge of the map. The northern border for the Lands of the Linnorm Kings that's shown on page 7 of the Inner Sea World Guide, for instance, doesn't encompass Turvik. It's different on p104, stretching farther north, and different again in the Lands of the Linnorm Kings campaign setting book. Taldor has similar issues with its eastern border.
It's a matter of picking the most sensible borders and going with that.
The original maps were all made to fit neatly on a rectangular poster, so the northern borders of northern countries and the eastern borders of eastern countries are all remarkably straight and form a near-perfect line. If you've got to tinker with anything, I'd say pushing then a little farther north here and there and a little farther east here and there to jive more closely with natural features that lie just "off the map" [the original Inner Sea map] would be good.
|
Apropos of nothing, here's vaguely what the territorial holdings of Korvosa and Magnimar would look like on that printable map.
Apropos of nothing, here's vaguely what the territorial holdings of Korvosa and Magnimar would look like on that printable map:
That is actually pretty interesting. I've been slowly adding state/province/locality data to the dataset as I go, I just don't have enough of it yet to make anything presentable.
What was the source for this? I'll add it to my list of things to get. Or maybe I already have it and I don't know. ;)
|
|
What was the source for this? I'll add it to my list of things to get. Or maybe I already have it and I don't know. ;)
Kindof cobbled together, really. Which smaller towns Korvosa and Magnimar control are well-defined, in the Guide to Korvosa pages 7-9 and Magnimar, City of Monuments page 5 respectively (and also the cities' respective wiki pages).
The Guide to Korvosa also gives the Ashwood and the Fenwall Mountains as Korvosa's western border (though I've drawn the line at the meridian south of Lake Syrantula, the water line of the Fenwall Mountains being hard to discern on the map) and the Storval Rise as its northern border. Korvosa's border around Janderhoff is more or less guesswork on my part, following a meridian north from Crystalrock to where it hits the Storval Rise and following the Falcon river east from Crystalrock until it intersects the border between Varisia and Nirmathas, the latter stretch being, to my lights, part of the old imperial border.
Magnimar's borders are almost entirely guesswork on my part, following terrain features between known points of control. The northern border between Ravenmoor and Turtleback Ferry is set by the extent of Shoanti territory on this map (I don't know a book source, sorry), then following a line from Hook Mountain to Skull Crossing. It forms a really ugly panhandle; the border would look so much nicer if Magnimar brought Ilsurian and Whistledown under its control.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The northern border between Ravenmoor and Turtleback Ferry is set by the extent of Shoanti territory on this map (I don't know a book source, sorry),
That is from Varisia, Birthplace of Legends
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Thanks for the pointers. I had forgotten about the Shoanti territory maps in the Varisia supplement! Seems like something useful to add to the list of data layers. You just don't know what people will find useful, right?
I redrew the country borders today. I moved borders along shorelines of major water bodies 5 km out, for clarity. I also added a hazard zone for the Eye of Abendego (it's a geographic circle, but it shows up as oblong on here because of the map projection).
Printable Inner Sea Map (3.67 MB)
Note that is the same URL as before so you may need a Shift+Reload to clear your browser cache.
|
|
I redrew the country borders today. I moved borders along shorelines of major water bodies 5 km out, for clarity. I also added a hazard zone for the Eye of Abendego (it's a geographic circle, but it shows up as oblong on here because of the map projection).
Tres magnifique!
I do wonder what the customary limit for territorial waters on Golarion would be. Obviously, despite what the map shows, there's no universal standard. The three-mile limit (which the five-klik limit here approximates) was derived from the limit of a cannon shot, but cannon are rare and bowshot doesn't seem appropriate. Bows are no good for coastal defense against ships. Even magic might be too short-range, at least at the low caster levels most coastal cities could field.
* * *
I hate to nitpick but feel compelled to mention - Deepmar still isn't shown as part of Cheliax.
Thanks for the pointers. I had forgotten about the Shoanti territory maps in the Varisia supplement! Seems like something useful to add to the list of data layers. You just don't know what people will find useful, right?
Great map!
Quick points:
* Both Deepgate and the Foundry are in the Hold of Belkzen, not Varisia.
* The border between Belkzen, Ustalav, and Lastwall run east of Freedom Town and then turn sharply west to go north of Lastwall.