Mapping Golarion: Putting what we know to latitude and longitude


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
I hate to nitpick but feel compelled to mention - Deepmar still isn't shown as part of Cheliax.

Speaking of that country, Archduchies, from Cheliax the Infernal Empire page 4. For the state/province/locality layer.

Yes, Ravounel's border kinks south of the Menador water divide east of Citadel Enferac. I don't know why it does, it seems like exactly the kind of border that creates bandit nests (see, e.g., Boston Corner), but that's how it's given on the source map.


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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
I do wonder what the customary limit for territorial waters on Golarion would be. Obviously, despite what the map shows, there's no universal standard.

I really just chose it for clarity. Any resemblance to actual, customary limits for territorial waters is purely coincidental.

Quote:
I hate to nitpick but feel compelled to mention - Deepmar still isn't shown as part of Cheliax.

It's not nitpicking at all. I appreciate feedback. With a map this big it's easy to overlook stuff. My starting point for these borders was the Inner Sea map on page 8 of the ISWG, which was convenient for having all the borders in one place, but no so great for accuracy.

PFWiki Scribe wrote:

* Both Deepgate and the Foundry are in the Hold of Belkzen, not Varisia.

* The border between Belkzen, Ustalav, and Lastwall run east of Freedom Town and then turn sharply west to go north of Lastwall.

Thanks. Yeah, more border nonsense. Ustalav has like three different borders depending on where you look. :P I'll get this all straightened out.

Quote:
Yes, Ravounel's border kinks south of the Menador water divide east of Citadel Enferac.

The real world has all sorts of border shenanigans. I grew up in east central Illinois. Not too far from where I lived was the tiny farm community of State Line City, Indiana. The Illinois/Indiana state line literally runs through the the town.


I love this thread! I just wish I'd found it before my players left the Crown of the World. :)

Shadow Lodge

John Mechalas wrote:

The real world has all sorts of border shenanigans. I grew up in east central Illinois. Not too far from where I lived was the tiny farm community of State Line City, Indiana. The Illinois/Indiana state line literally runs through the the town.

Heh, true enough. Ravounel's border isn't even the worst offender by far. That honor goes to Menador, which is set up in such a way that it's cut in half by a spur of the range west of Taggun Hold, narrows to what must be a near-uninhabited and near-impassable mountainous neck south of Ganderhall's Lair, and contains only two towns of any significance, one of which is the aforementioned autonomous Taggun Hold. It must be a nightmare to administrate.


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Menador

Perhaps the actual name is Meandor. Which is just a slight misspelling of Meander. You know, a typo here, a typo there, and suddenly everything's confused.


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John Mechalas wrote:

Printable Inner Sea Map (3.67 MB)

Note that is the same URL as before so you may need a Shift+Reload to clear your browser cache.

Are you thinking you'd add a key somewhere at some point too? For city types, points of interest and other map like things?


Dhampir984 wrote:
Are you thinking you'd add a key somewhere at some point too? For city types, points of interest and other map like things?

Yes. I am working towards finishing this off and making it distribution ready. That will include a legend, and of course the Community Use disclaimer/notice.

Shadow Lodge

Question: on both the interactive and printable Inner Sea maps, there's an island about 340 miles southwest of Acisazi and about 215 miles southeast of Promise that doesn't appear on the Inner Sea World Guide map. What was the source for this island?

Until I'm told otherwise, I'm going to assume it's the location of Mirivenn, an aquatic elf settlement mentioned in Dance of the Damned, at 11.


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It's pretty small, but Smuggler's Shiv (the tiny island off the coast of Sargava) has an AP instalment set there so would be good to be on the map, I feel.


Hmm. I think that's a mistake. Going back over my layers, that little island seems to correspond with the letter "e" in the compass rose on one of the Inner Sea maps. I may have had a semitransparent overlay at one point and thought it was an island showing through.

I'll get it deleted.

Shadow Lodge

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John Mechalas wrote:
I'll get it deleted.

While you're deleting, why not compensate by making additions? The settlements marked on the map are limited to those with known populations, correct? Well, I was reading through The Kintargo Contract and found two unmarked settlements with known population: Cypress Point and the Kitkasiticka Village. Cypress Point is located at the end of the cape east of Kintargo, and has a population of 1,850. See Jim Groves et al., Pathfinder Adventure Path #101: The Kintargo Contract, 28, 41 (2015). The Kitkasiticka Village is located in the eastern part of Ravounel Forest, Id. at 41, and while its population is not stated outright, it can be inferred. "Currently, the tribe [of Kitkasiticka strix] consists of Solmestria, four rangers, and 54 low-level strix," for a population of 59. Id. at 43.

The map on page 41 of The Kintargo Contract also includes Whiterock, but doesn't give it a population. Id. at 41. It does, however, place Whiterock east of the Yolubilis River, making Whiterock smaller than Cypress point. Id. at 28 ("The small town of Cypress Point … remains the largest settlement in Ravounel east of the Yolubilis River.").* Whiterock is also called "the first major settlement on the Yolubilis south of Kintargo." Richard Pett, Pathfinder Adventure Path #99: Dance of the Damned, back inside cover (2015). Dance of the Damned also gives the strong impression that Whiterock's economy matches or exceeds Cypress Point. Id. (calling Whiterock a "major settlement" with "productive quarries" while Cypress Point is "a relatively rundown and depopulated settlement whose primary claim to fame—fishing—has been on the decline of late."). I'd call Whiterock a Small Town with a population between 201 and 1,849 people. See F. Wesley Schneider et al., Pathfinder RPG Gamemastery Guide, 203 (2010).

Rounding out the settlements in Ravounel, No Response from Deepmar gives the Deepmar Penal Colony on the south coast of Deepmar Island a pre-adventure population of 48. Steven S. Greer, Pathfinder Module: No Response from Deepmar, 3, 31 (2012). I'm not sure how trustworthy this statblock is, though, because it calls Deepmar a thorp when it should be a hamlet, Cf. id. at 31 and Gamemastery Guide, supra, at 203, and because using either the thorp base stats or the hamlet base stats with the listed settlement qualities and government leads to a final statblock that's different from the printed one.

As for Points of Interest, The Kintargo Contract also shows the locations of the Urchin's Maw (west of Acisazi), the Grundlescorn Lair (southwestern Ravounel Forest), the Oakrib Inn (at the source of the Yolubilis River, on the right bank), and Menador Keep (east of the Oakrib Inn, in the middle of Menador Gap). The Kintargo Contract, supra, at 41.

I've taken the liberty of marking the approximate locations of these settlements and points of interest, using the interactive map as a base because it at least lets me see latitude and longitude. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any program that would let me edit the lookup files or the layers directly. I apologize, therefore, for the inexactness of the following latitudes and longitudes:

Cypress Point 43.7463/-22.8198;
Whiterock 42.9617/-23.0062;
Kitkasiticka Village 42.5500/-24.6609;
Deepmar Penal Colony 44.6397/-24.6221;
Urchin's Maw 43.4744/-25.0727;
Grundlescorn Lair 42.0295/-25.1348;
Oakrib Inn 41.5090/-24.0550; and
Menador Keep 41.4235/-23.3481.

* Kintargo itself straddles the mouth of the river. On your map, as well as the map in The Kintargo Contract (The Kintargo Contract, supra at 41) the river runs significantly west of the city. I'm going to explain this discrepancy as the Yolubilis's main channel flowing south and west of Argo Isle, while the branch that we see flowing north of Argo Isle on the city map is unmapped at lower resolutions.


zimmerwald1915 wrote:
I've taken the liberty of marking the approximate locations of these settlements and points of interest, using the interactive map as a base because it at least lets me see latitude and longitude. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any program that would let me edit the lookup files or the layers directly.

Thanks! I will add these, too. Eyeballing is good enough for now. I don't have a field for indicating that population is estimated, but something along those lines might be useful for consider for cartographic purposes, e.g. what category of city.

A small crop of (minor but annoying) medical things have eaten into my free time over the last few weeks so I've not made much progress here or elsewhere. :(

Shadow Lodge

Another project, related to the globe, occurs to me. Generate an icosohedron-based Goldberg polyhedron such that each edge is approximately 6 miles long and the distance from a vertex to the center is equal to the radius of the globe (which I assume is something like 3958 miles, if it's meant to model an Earth-like planet).

Voila! Kingmaker-esque hex grid for everyplace! Just be sure to place the 12 pentagons over water if possible. For a nice bonus, get the grid that sits over the Stolen Lands to look as much like the Kingmaker map as possible.


The number of hexes needed to do this using a 6-mile edge length is somewhat terrifying. A rough estimate puts it around 2.1 million.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
zimmerwald1915 wrote:
The settlements marked on the map are limited to those with known populations, correct?

Oh? That would be fantastic. I would love to double check this list with my project:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uax0?Golarion-Populations-by-Race-and-Settleme nt-Size

John Mechalas wrote:
I don't have a field for indicating that population is estimated, but something along those lines might be useful for consider for cartographic purposes, e.g. what category of city.

You're welcome to use the source data I post in my project to fill in those fields for this. I have both population numbers and settlement categories. I also have a couple of those settlements that were noted as missing just a few posts up, and I'd love to know if I'm missing any as well.


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In case you haven't seen it, here's a nice thread on Orv and the depth of the vaults.


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I am trying to resolve the route for the Path of Aganhei. According to the ISWG, it's actually two overlapping routes: a western path and an eastern path. The west path is from Kalsgard to Minkai, and the east path is from Icestair to the Successor States in Tian Xia (Lingshen, Quain, and Po Li). They overlap from the Rimethirst Mountains to, presumably, Ordu-Aganhei in Hongal.

On the Avistan end, the Path splits on the Avistan side of the Rimethirst Mountains, with the western route headed for Kalsgard and crossing the Stormspear Hills, and the eastern route headed for Icestair in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. It's the Avistan end that I am most interested in at the moment.

Icestair sits on the southeastern tip of the Winterwall Glacier, and the ISWG says that the glacier extends north up to the Crown of the World, though it doesn't appear on the Crown of the World map (possibly because of the map scale). The question at hand is, does the Path of Aganhei go on the glacier directly (possible, but seemingly dangerous), or run east out of Icestair to go through the Tusk Mountains, and skirt the glacier until it reaches the Crown?

Either way, one of the two branches, western or eastern (or both, I supose), needs to go onto the glacier at some point. The glacier extends that far north, and the two branches straddle it.

Thoughts on this?


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Just wanted to say, great work! I really appreciate the maps. Here's hoping you continue to add more and more and more.

Or that Paizo hires you to make it all official.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Just so you know: in the Pathfinder Player Companion Blood of the Sea is a nice new map of Golarion's Oceans.
It's a global map, as far as I can tell.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
John Mechalas wrote:

I am trying to resolve the route for the Path of Aganhei. According to the ISWG, it's actually two overlapping routes: a western path and an eastern path. The west path is from Kalsgard to Minkai, and the east path is from Icestair to the Successor States in Tian Xia (Lingshen, Quain, and Po Li). They overlap from the Rimethirst Mountains to, presumably, Ordu-Aganhei in Hongal.

On the Avistan end, the Path splits on the Avistan side of the Rimethirst Mountains, with the western route headed for Kalsgard and crossing the Stormspear Hills, and the eastern route headed for Icestair in the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. It's the Avistan end that I am most interested in at the moment.

Icestair sits on the southeastern tip of the Winterwall Glacier, and the ISWG says that the glacier extends north up to the Crown of the World, though it doesn't appear on the Crown of the World map (possibly because of the map scale). The question at hand is, does the Path of Aganhei go on the glacier directly (possible, but seemingly dangerous), or run east out of Icestair to go through the Tusk Mountains, and skirt the glacier until it reaches the Crown?

Either way, one of the two branches, western or eastern (or both, I supose), needs to go onto the glacier at some point. The glacier extends that far north, and the two branches straddle it.

Thoughts on this?

I think the information you're looking for is in the Jade Regent Adventure Path issue 51, the Hungry Storm.

EDIT:

Never mind, I'm dumb. I understand now. I think the path skirts the glacier, and joins the Linnorm Path of Urdu-Aganhei somewhere in that trackless tundra.


Franz Lunzer wrote:

Just so you know: in the Pathfinder Player Companion Blood of the Sea is a nice new map of Golarion's Oceans.

It's a global map, as far as I can tell.

I will pick it up. Thanks!


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Franz Lunzer wrote:

Just so you know: in the Pathfinder Player Companion Blood of the Sea is a nice new map of Golarion's Oceans.

It's a global map, as far as I can tell.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting Aquatic Adventures has the exact same map, if you have already seen that.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
David knott 242 wrote:
Franz Lunzer wrote:

Just so you know: in the Pathfinder Player Companion Blood of the Sea is a nice new map of Golarion's Oceans.

It's a global map, as far as I can tell.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting Aquatic Adventures has the exact same map, if you have already seen that.

It is also a global map of all major waterways, but it's not the exact same map. It looks similar, but the art style is very different.

Aquatic Adventures has a Cloth-style, with a thick border, while Blood of the Sea has a more fancy, professional style, with a small border and sea-monsters depicted.


Blood of the Sea isn't available as a PDF until the 26th (digital works better for me). Based on the above description though, maybe the campaign setting is the way to go.


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The maps may not be identical artistically, but they do convey the same information -- and Aquatic Adventures is more useful for describing the undersea geography of Golarion.

Sovereign Court

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Did anyone else catch this, from p. 38 of Aquatic Adventures, in the description of the Steaming Sea?:

Thremyr’s Shield
This ice belt sweeps down from the Crown of the World, forming a solid barrier between the Steaming Sea and the Songil Sea. For most of the year, the ice is thick and stable and can be crossed on foot. During the summer months, though, the ice wears thin and narrow channels open between the two seas. Exceptionally bold captains can attempt “Thremyr’s Run” at these times by steering their ships through the open channels. The ships risk getting trapped in too-narrow channels halfway to
their destination, or even becoming ice-locked in an unexpected cold snap. Those who succeed, though, can bring their trade goods to the other sea’s ports months before competitors.

So, basically, Avistan IS NOT connected to the Crown of the World by land. It may not be deep, and most of the time it's frozen over, but there IS a continuous waterway that connects the Steaming Sea with the Songil Sea. Seems like this is new information that might affect the way we've all been mapping the continents.


Mosaic wrote:
So, basically, Avistan IS NOT connected to the Crown of the World by land. It may not be deep, and most of the time it's frozen over, but there IS a continuous waterway that connects the Steaming Sea with the Songil Sea. Seems like this is new information that might affect the way we've all been mapping the continents.

The Steaming Sea and the Songil Sea don't straddle Avistan. This ice shelf is shown on the Crown of the World map, and it runs from Almhult in the Crown of the World to the Gulf of Khorkii in Tian Xia.

Sovereign Court

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John Mechalas wrote:
Mosaic wrote:
So, basically, Avistan IS NOT connected to the Crown of the World by land. It may not be deep, and most of the time it's frozen over, but there IS a continuous waterway that connects the Steaming Sea with the Songil Sea. Seems like this is new information that might affect the way we've all been mapping the continents.
The Steaming Sea and the Songil Sea don't straddle Avistan. This ice shelf is shown on the Crown of the World map, and it runs from Almhult in the Crown of the World to the Gulf of Khorkii in Tian Xia.

You are correct. I was confusing the Songil Sea with the Shining Sea. Never mind. :)


Mosaic wrote:
You are correct. I was confusing the Songil Sea with the Shining Sea. Never mind. :)

These things happen when the names of 3 out of 4 seas up there start with an "S".


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Clearly the northern seas should have started with an "N" instead of an "S".


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Franz Lunzer wrote:

It is also a global map of all major waterways, but it's not the exact same map. It looks similar, but the art style is very different.

Aquatic Adventures has a Cloth-style, with a thick border, while Blood of the Sea has a more fancy, professional style, with a small border and sea-monsters depicted.

OK. The Aquatic Adventures map is based on the same, not-to-scale Golarion map that's been around for a while. The real gem, though, is that it provides names for things that we haven't had until now. So that's a win.


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Keep up the excellent work fellas. You've got some really amazing stuff here.


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A quick, small update: the rendered maps' web server can now serve them with encryption (https). This helps me embed it on PathfinderWiki, like this.


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John Mechalas wrote:
OK. The Aquatic Adventures map is based on the same, not-to-scale Golarion map that's been around for a while. The real gem, though, is that it provides names for things that we haven't had until now. So that's a win.

I was going to point out the Blood of the Sea map, but it seems the AA one is better or just has more details to add?


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We've rolled out locator maps for many cities and locations on PathfinderWiki. At a quick glance about 500 wiki articles now have these locator maps, most of which didn't have any locator maps before. All locator maps get more accurate scale bars, and no longer require loading the entire 2-3MB Inner Sea map to display.

Thanks again to John for the hard work putting together the data. I've made sure he gets credited on every such map that we use on the wiki.

I also finally have a decent toolchain for generating and serving vector tiles from this data, so I'm closer to making the more feature-rich vector maps perform way better and require less bandwidth.


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Vector tile detail tests are coming along nicely. Here's zooming out from Sandpoint Cathedral with roads mapped.


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Cool. :)


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I just stumbled upon this today and I have to say... Wow. Like this is so amazing and fantastic. I'd been using this other Fanmap for some time, but they added in a bunch of stuff to "fill the void" and I dislike using it because I don't know what actually exists and what doesn't.

But just wow! Amazing work! And now I am following your work!


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I've updated PathfinderWiki.com so that all 920 data points from the vector map are included in the wiki and have their location correctly displayed in each page's minimap. You now look up locations from Aaminiut to Zura's Mouth.


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Totally awesome! Impressive job getting this into so many articles on www.pathfinderwiki.com at once. Now we can see where various small (as well as not so small) towns are relative to other landmarks.

Suddenly my wish for an Iron Horses AP is rekindled . . . .


How is the Ruins of Azlant AP looking, map-wise? Any small scale/regional maps in the books released this far?

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There's a regional map on the inside front covers of the first three sections of the AP that have been released so far. Even though it is scaled, it doesn't show how it fits in with the rest of the islands that now make up Azlant.


Thank you. If I were to get just one of the books, which one would you suggest? I am partial to the second one because Paizo's description lists a gazetteer.

Understood that there isn't precise placement but if the AP mentions distances or travel times that would be useful.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The Ruins of Azlant Player's Guide (which is free) mentions that it is a 6 week journey from Almas to Azlant.

Paizo Employee Managing Developer

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John Mechalas wrote:

Thank you. If I were to get just one of the books, which one would you suggest? I am partial to the second one because Paizo's description lists a gazetteer.

Understood that there isn't precise placement but if the AP mentions distances or travel times that would be useful.

While it'd still be rad if you picked up the Adventure Path, I do go into detail about the rough location of the region in Pathfinder #122.

Here's the most relevant bit of information that I think you're looking for:

Ruins of Azlant Regional Gazetteer wrote:
The region mapped here is only the eastern edge of the shattered continent. After sailing for 1,000 miles due west from Mediogalti Isle, this is the first region one comes across. At roughly 30° N latitude, Ancorato and nearby islands have a humid subtropical climate.

Thanks for the globe, by the way. That really helped me zero in on my distance.


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Thank you, Adam! I had started writing up some estimates but this is much better! And we can call it canonical, which is just fantastic. I'll purchase the 2nd book [Done! OMG the artwork in this is just stunning.] and work on incorporating the map.

And, you're welcome! That this has been useful even to the game developers is icing on the cake. Chocolate icing. On a dark chocolate cake.


This image shows where the colony is located. The thick blue line is the 30th parallel, and the dashed line is a geographic circle centered on the west coast of Mediogalti Isle.

I'll probably have to shift Azlant about 5 to 10 degrees south. It might be a good idea to remove some of the curvature from the island group (Arcadia could probably use that treatment as well) so that Adam's description holds true with this being the first island you encounter.


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Adam Daigle wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:

Thank you. If I were to get just one of the books, which one would you suggest? I am partial to the second one because Paizo's description lists a gazetteer.

Understood that there isn't precise placement but if the AP mentions distances or travel times that would be useful.

While it'd still be rad if you picked up the Adventure Path, I do go into detail about the rough location of the region in Pathfinder #122.

Here's the most relevant bit of information that I think you're looking for:

Ruins of Azlant Regional Gazetteer wrote:
The region mapped here is only the eastern edge of the shattered continent. After sailing for 1,000 miles due west from Mediogalti Isle, this is the first region one comes across. At roughly 30° N latitude, Ancorato and nearby islands have a humid subtropical climate.
Thanks for the globe, by the way. That really helped me zero in on my distance.

This post has made my day. The fact that one of the devs actually took all of this work into account and openly acknowledged it is super cool.

Shadow Lodge

bishop083 wrote:
Adam Daigle wrote:
John Mechalas wrote:

Thank you. If I were to get just one of the books, which one would you suggest? I am partial to the second one because Paizo's description lists a gazetteer.

Understood that there isn't precise placement but if the AP mentions distances or travel times that would be useful.

While it'd still be rad if you picked up the Adventure Path, I do go into detail about the rough location of the region in Pathfinder #122.

Here's the most relevant bit of information that I think you're looking for:

Ruins of Azlant Regional Gazetteer wrote:
The region mapped here is only the eastern edge of the shattered continent. After sailing for 1,000 miles due west from Mediogalti Isle, this is the first region one comes across. At roughly 30° N latitude, Ancorato and nearby islands have a humid subtropical climate.
Thanks for the globe, by the way. That really helped me zero in on my distance.
This post has made my day. The fact that one of the devs actually took all of this work into account and openly acknowledged it is super cool.

Another way to look at things is that Paizo ought to be paying John and Garrett for their work if they're going to reincorporate it into their corpus of sources, and that anything less is exploitative though well within their rights.

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
bishop083 wrote:
This post has made my day. The fact that one of the devs actually took all of this work into account and openly acknowledged it is super cool.
Another way to look at things is that Paizo ought to be paying John and Garrett for their work if they're going to reincorporate it into their corpus of sources, and that anything less is exploitative though well within their rights.

As someone who has, both as a Paizo employee and a fan long before working at Paizo, put thousands of hours into the free, fan-owned and -run PathfinderWiki, I think this claim is complete nonsense. Paizo isn't trying to sell John and Garrett's work, so it's hardly "exploitative"; they made a free resource and Paizo developers are using it the same as anyone else in the community can. Since the resource exists to help make our products as accurate as they can be, why would Paizo developers not use it?

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