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The interesting thing to me is more in the "what now" aspect of what happens to the campaign world when "God" dies. What happens to institutions, to culture, etc. Add to that the idea that this also casts prophecy in doubt, and you've got a bunch of inherent questions that are more interesting to me than "who did it."
So why haven't you actually done anything with that concept?
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So why haven't you actually done anything with that concept?
The interesting thing to me is more in the "what now" aspect of what happens to the campaign world when "God" dies. What happens to institutions, to culture, etc. Add to that the idea that this also casts prophecy in doubt, and you've got a bunch of inherent questions that are more interesting to me than "who did it."
Um, Cheliax?
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Yes, a lot of things happened in the backstory stemming from this. What about recently? And elsewhere besides Cheliax? One would think the death of the god of humanity would have effects even a century later, and not isolated to one empire.
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Yes, a lot of things happened in the backstory stemming from this. What about recently? And elsewhere besides Cheliax? One would think the death of the god of humanity would have effects even a century later, and not isolated to one empire.
Well I've always seen "the God of Hunanity" as simply a title rather than being literal, since his death didn't affect any other world other than Golarion, and even then it's relegated to the Inner Sea Region (was he even worshiped in Tian-Xia?). Taldor/Cheliax was the "humanity" he was God of, and after his death it all went Straight to hell in a handbasket. Though we may find out more in the coming Ruins of Azlant AP, though personally I'm hoping for more information on Acavna.
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Then that goes back to "Why is it such an important setting event that it's literally the first thing said about it" then?
In the grand scheme of things two countries on a planet that is only one planet in an apparently densely populated galaxy are...very small. A lot of the historical footnotes are a bigger deal than that (Rovagug's sealing and the Aboleths going "F!#% all y'all I'm casting Meteo" on the planet come to mind).
Though it does make sense why he nearly got his ass kicked by a mortal Wizard if he's really that unimportant as a deity.
I don't know any more.
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Yes, a lot of things happened in the backstory stemming from this. What about recently? And elsewhere besides Cheliax? One would think the death of the god of humanity would have effects even a century later, and not isolated to one empire.
I think you could see a lot of things through that prism if you wanted: the ongoing decline in Taldor and the Andoran and Galt experiments with forging their own path, for example. I think perhaps Rahadoum (sp?) should perhaps have got a bit more bolshy, but my impression is that that nation doesn't really have anyone at Paizo who's particularly interested in pushing for its development (plus its problematic to set adventures in a country where divine casters are essentially criminals).
I think it's still playing out a century later, but it's not really surprising that such developments are no longer the whiz-bang "worldwound opens, eye of abendego forms, cheliax distintegrates" kind of events - it's more the consequences of those.
I do agree that Earthfall and Rovagug's imprisonment were more significant events. However, I'm beginning to think that "aroden's death" and it's significance to some of us fans was perhaps a case of misunderstanding/miscommunication. From the staff comments in this thread, it seems to me it was not intended to be the great puzzle to pick at that I thought it was (and that perhaps the Gap is going to be in Starfinder).
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I always saw the death of Aroden as a narrative device to make perfectly clear that in Golarion, humankind is responsible for its own destiny. Not unlike the story of man's fall from paradise in Genesis, it serves to deflect the problem of theodicy and free will. There is no place for adventurers in a world where the divine champion of humanity walks among the mortals. In such a setting, player characters would be reduced to sidekicks fulfilling a predestined prophecy.
And the fact that there is no explanation is essential to this effect. If you think about it, the mythic framework that encompasses man's fall from Paradise is deeply unsatisfying (how could Adam and Eve choose to disobey God if they didn't know the difference between good and evil to begin with?). The narrative can only deflect the problem of theodicy and free will, not solve it. The only truely satisfactory explanation would impose a new meaning, a new destiny on humankind, thereby depriving it of its freedom to choose its own destiny. It's similar with the events surrounding Aroden's death. It ensures that Golarion is a place that needs adventurers.
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Then that goes back to "Why is it such an important setting event that it's literally the first thing said about it" then?
In the grand scheme of things two countries on a planet that is only one planet in an apparently densely populated galaxy are...very small. A lot of the historical footnotes are a bigger deal than that (Rovagug's sealing and the Aboleths going "F@&% all y'all I'm casting Meteo" on the planet come to mind).
Though it does make sense why he nearly got his ass kicked by a mortal Wizard if he's really that unimportant as a deity.
I don't know any more.
Because it set the stage for the campaign setting, namely, the Inner Sea Region, where the vast majority of Golarion games take place. His death and the aftermath set things in motion for how they are now. But in the grand scheme of things, yes, there are definitely far more important historical events that have happened in the world, let alone the universe. Namely, Acavna tanking the aforementioned Meteo so that we even have a world to have adventures in in the first place.
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But in the grand scheme of things, yes, there are definitely far more important historical events that have happened in the world, let alone the universe. Namely, Acavna tanking the aforementioned Meteo so that we even have a world to have adventures in in the first place.
Oh, I am a thousand percent more interested in what's up with that Mordant Spire and those mysterious masked elves (who may or may not be or include aquatic elves amongst them?) and that dead moon goddess than anything to do with Aroden!
Indeed, I wonder if the very existence of aquatic elves comes from the time of the meteor strike, as a faction of elves chose to adapt themselves to stay behind on a world that they, quite understandably, given the severity of the impact event, assumed was going to be under the waves for the foreseeable future, making the 'sea elves' of Golarion something other than 'oh, and there are elves underwater, too, for some reason'...
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But in the grand scheme of things, yes, there are definitely far more important historical events that have happened in the world, let alone the universe. Namely, Acavna tanking the aforementioned Meteo so that we even have a world to have adventures in in the first place.Oh, I am a thousand percent more interested in what's up with that Mordant Spire and those mysterious masked elves (who may or may not be or include aquatic elves amongst them?) and that dead moon goddess than anything to do with Aroden!
Indeed, I wonder if the very existence of aquatic elves comes from the time of the meteor strike, as a faction of elves chose to adapt themselves to stay behind on a world that they, quite understandably, given the severity of the impact event, assumed was going to be under the waves for the foreseeable future, making the 'sea elves' of Golarion something other than 'oh, and there are elves underwater, too, for some reason'...
Or they were mutated like the Azlanti>Gillmen.
That being said, GIVE US MORE MORDANT SPIRE/ACAVNA GOODNESS PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
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If your decision to keep your personal "working theory" isn't happy-making for some of your fans, why do it? Why not let us know in a blog -- nothing "official" -- what your personal theory is? If we as GMs want to tell a different story, you're still freeing us to do so. End of mystery in the sense of withholding information, on-going mystery in the sense of what we make of it.Why not?
Because I don't have a personal theory.
I do not know how Aroden died, or why, or who did it, or in which room it happened. I don't find those things to be the interesting parts about him. In fact, it's kind of the one aspect of the character that I don't find particularly interesting.
The interesting thing to me is more in the "what now" aspect of what happens to the campaign world when "God" dies. What happens to institutions, to culture, etc. Add to that the idea that this also casts prophecy in doubt, and you've got a bunch of inherent questions that are more interesting to me than "who did it."
I never really considered "who did it" when I created Aroden. I left that to be determined later, to be woven into other stories by other authors, very likely stories that hadn't been considered yet, left for future development if we decided to develop it at all.
The "working theory" is more something James and others have pieced together in the time since Aroden's creation, tying in the few clues that I left with other cool stuff that they're planning to have a "maybe this is how it went down," but as I mentioned earlier, even that's flexible until we actually decide to address the issue. If we do.
I could outline an entire Aroden-focused Adventure Path with all kinds of insight into his life, his cult, and the ruins of his influence, but to be perfectly honest I'm not certain even that would answer the question of how he died.
I like that the people of Golarion don't know. So long as there's no "official" answer, the answer is free to be whatever you want it to be.
And this is the part of the mystery that I want solved. I want to know his path from Azlant. I want to know what the disporata was like. I want to know what Absolom was like when it rose from the see. Was there a civilization that had sunk into the see that inspired Aroden to rise it up. What was it like for Aroden to see his people die off? ECT, and ECT. It would seem to me that Aroden would have not just inspired a religion, but a school of magic.
It seems to me that there are so many pieces to pick up after Aroden died that PCs should try and retrieve, not necessarily to become the new Aroden, but to try and help the world recover from its current state.
How cool would it be to be on a quest to find something like a famous last message that started out. "If you found this message it must mean I'm dead." from Aroden and were given clues to find something that lead you to find a device that protected humanity?
It doesn't have to reveal his death, but it could help uncover how he lived.
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Have you read the huge article I wrote about that stuff in Pathfinder #100?
No, because I didn't realize that was where I needed to look until now. On my wish-list.
Have you read the huge article I wrote about that stuff in Pathfinder #100?
Seriously though why is this in an AP and not a setting book?
Creative Director
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Yup; as Rysky says, the AP books ARE setting books. We've been publishing setting material in the AP line longer than any other line with the exception of the modules line (and that exception only predates the AP line by a few months).
There's more than adventures in each volume of the Adventure Path. By design. We WANT people to buy them, including people who don't run Adventure Paths. Because that makes us more money, which allows us to make more books for you to buy in ALL the lines.
We don't hide the fact that we put world content into the APs, and never have. There's lots of them to track, yes, but each and every one of them has a summary online here at paizo.com so you can pick and choose which ones to buy if you're only looking for world content. Or barring that, post a question here to the boards so folks can say, for example, "Oh there's an Aroden article in Pathfinder #100."
Well, at least you're honest about the money making part.
I'm just not particularly interested in Hell's Rebels. Not enough to drop $20 for a single article in book 3(?) of the AP. That is afterward useless to me without spending the other $100 for the rest of the adventure.
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Well, at least you're honest about the money making part.
I'm just not particularly interested in Hell's Rebels. Not enough to drop $20 for a single article in book 3(?) of the AP.
Why wouldn't I be honest about it? When Paizo makes money, it pays its employees. When Paizo pays its employees, they (including me) get to buy food, pay rent, and continue to live. And when they get to eat and live, they get to create more content.
If we didn't make money, we wouldn't be in business, and we wouldn't be able to produce content.
I'm not gonna apologize for trying to help make this business one that's profitable.
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Not asking you to, it's honest praise. A lot of businesses would try to talk around that point, push the merits of the AP, the intrinsic value of owning such a landmark installment in your AP line as a collectors item if nothing else, or other hard sell pitches. Yes, even on their own forums.
It's usually really tiresome and transparent so it's nice that you guys are open about the fact that you are a business first and foremost instead of trying to deny it even though it's an open secret.
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I always saw the death of Aroden as a narrative device to make perfectly clear that in Golarion, humankind is responsible for its own destiny. Not unlike the story of man's fall from paradise in Genesis, it serves to deflect the problem of theodicy and free will. There is no place for adventurers in a world where the divine champion of humanity walks among the mortals. In such a setting, player characters would be reduced to sidekicks fulfilling a predestined prophecy.Dwarves and Elves have like a dozen gods each and they're not really invalidated because of it. So... no? The very nature of divinity of Golarion already solves all of that.
And the fact that there is no explanation is essential to this effect(...)The only truely satisfactory explanation would impose a new meaning, a new destiny on humankind, thereby depriving it of its freedom to choose its own destinyNo? Not even a little? There's no connection between 'providing an interesting explanation' and 'invalidating free will'. At all. The whole post is a (admittedly very high minded and flowery) non sequitur.
I didn't present an ironclad argument based on inherent logic, I made an analogy to give a different (meta-narrative) perspective. I guess I could have done a better job explaining.
The struggle with supernatural forces is essential to traditional mythological narratives. In these narratives, human attempts to emancipate themselves from irrational and overpowering mythological forces are usually doomed, often resulting in a desastrous outcome for the hero. This kind of mythological logic is difficult to accept for modern minds--after all, we like to think that we are masters of our own fate. Human freedom of choice is fundamentally incompatible with the mythological mindset, and while many works of epic fiction successfully create tension and drama by pitting them against each other, it is more difficult to translate these conflicts into fantasy RPGs which focus on the agency of player characters. The game uses all kinds of narrative devices to ensure that this conflict takes place in a controlled environment that prevents escalation, at the risk of trivializing the threat of mythological powers.
I see Aroden's death as a narrative of emancipation that serves to establish the relationship between humankind and the mythological forces on principle (you may disagree). The existence of gods threatens human freedom (in the words of Bakunin, if God really existed, it would be necessary to abolish him), so the game banishes them to a different sphere of existence with limited permeability and restricts their interactions with mortals. Aroden is a messianic figure, the personified breach between the spheres of immanence and transcendence. It's not a coincidence that his death heralds the end of prophecy. By creating an unknown future, Aroden's death freed humankind from a predetermined destiny (a traumatic experience for sure). Any explanation for his death would only perpetuate the mythological framework. (If Aroden had been killed by some demon lord, for example, humankind's history would forever be linked to that demon lord and its future would be shaped accordingly.) I don't know if there could be a satisfactory explanation for Aroden's death (I'd like to think that he realized how mankind needed to be free from divine steering to figure out things on its own, but that would raise the problem of theodicy again). From a narrative standpoint, the ommission is better than any explanation that would distract from the core message ('You are on your own now').
The topic of nonhuman races is a different problem, in my opinion. Traditionally, they are part of the mythological world, but RPGs introduced them as player races similar to humans. Despite this, they have a lot of mythological dead weight to carry around. They are relicts of a bygone age in a humanocentric world. They are stale, unable to change or evolve as a culture or society. They are depicted in essentialist stereotypes that would be considered extremely offensive if applied to real world cultures. Where the human race is defined by its different cultures, dwarven/elven/etc. cultures are defined by their race. The narrative setup puts them in a position where they are no longer part of the mythological world, but at the same time lack the potential to become something different. If the setting would treat them equal to humans, they would likely have their own narratives of emancipation (I haven't checked, maybe the do and the picture that I painted is too negative. I guess the gnome's departure from the First World could be seen as such a narrative).
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Have you read the huge article I wrote about that stuff in Pathfinder #100?
I did, and while I liked it, it felt like I was looking through a knot hole in a fence.
I know more about how the Runelords effected Golarion than I do about what Aroden and his church created.
Just read that and it sounds harsh, I don't mean it that way. But Aroden actually wanted to advance Humanity and yet very little stands as a testament to his work. Yet the Runelords have dams and crumbling bridges and arcs that still stand.
It would seem to me that someone who stood for the advancement of humanity would stand as an example of what it could become and inspire humanity to do great works.
I don't see a whole lot of that. I used to think that it was sort of implied at the beginning of the campaign that was the case, but after reading more of the material I feel like I was mistaken and so that's on me.
So while I don't advocate for Aroden to return or his murder to be solved, I do think that for a god that influenced the world like he did I'd like to some evidence of it where it seems suitable.
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But Aroden actually wanted to advance Humanity and yet very little stands as a testament to his work. Yet the Runelords have dams and crumbling bridges and arcs that still stand.
I'm all for learning more about Aroden and how his death shaped Golarion. But it's not fair to say very little of his work remains. He raised the Starstone. The existence of multiple gods is a direct result of Aroden's actions, as is the existence of the largest city in the Inner Sea. Additionally, there are plenty of churches, monuments, art, and other miscellany in Cheliax [at least] from Aroden's time.
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Well, at least you're honest about the money making part.
I'm just not particularly interested in Hell's Rebels. Not enough to drop $20 for a single article in book 3(?) of the AP. That is afterward useless to me without spending the other $100 for the rest of the adventure.
Hell's Rebels is awesome.
And #100 has a completely bad to the bone adventure in the book. Tons of cool content in the back also.
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Have you read the huge article I wrote about that stuff in Pathfinder #100?
I did, and while I liked it, it felt like I was looking through a knot hole in a fence.
I know more about how the Runelords effected Golarion than I do about what Aroden and his church created.
Just read that and it sounds harsh, I don't mean it that way. But Aroden actually wanted to advance Humanity and yet very little stands as a testament to his work. Yet the Runelords have dams and crumbling bridges and arcs that still stand.
It would seem to me that someone who stood for the advancement of humanity would stand as an example of what it could become and inspire humanity to do great works.
I don't see a whole lot of that. I used to think that it was sort of implied at the beginning of the campaign that was the case, but after reading more of the material I feel like I was mistaken and so that's on me.
So while I don't advocate for Aroden to return or his murder to be solved, I do think that for a god that influenced the world like he did I'd like to some evidence of it where it seems suitable.
Aroden's church under the Taldans didn't take over Varisia, iirc.
So, if you are reading Rise of the Runelords, of course, Aroden's influence isn't felt. But his footprint is all over Cheliax.
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But Aroden actually wanted to advance Humanity and yet very little stands as a testament to his work. Yet the Runelords have dams and crumbling bridges and arcs that still stand.I'm all for learning more about Aroden and how his death shaped Golarion. But it's not fair to say very little of his work remains. He raised the Starstone. The existence of multiple gods is a direct result of Aroden's actions, as is the existence of the largest city in the Inner Sea. Additionally, there are plenty of churches, monuments, art, and other miscellany in Cheliax [at least] from Aroden's time.
The Starstone is not something that the average person can see or interact with. As far as most people could say, it might not even exist. His largest church in Absolom is now an Chellish embassy, and Chelliax is overwriting his history on a daily basis with "Alternative History".
And while its true Absalom is more than likely second largest achievement, creating Taldor was more than likely his greatest. Even still we don't really see that many monuments to the god.
And before I go on, this is my opinion, based on my observations.
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Aroden's church under the Taldans didn't take over Varisia, iirc.
So, if you are reading Rise of the Runelords, of course, Aroden's influence isn't felt. But his footprint is all over Cheliax.
Well we know that the Runelords knew who he was so there was some influence.
And who could say how much influence was had there. The Runelords and much of their people were of the same racial (Azlanti) stock.
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The Starstone is not something that the average person can see or interact with. As far as most people could say, it might not even exist. His largest church in Absolom is now an Chellish embassy, and Chelliax is overwriting his history on a daily basis with "Alternative History".
See or interact with directly? No. But it's not exactly hidden either. It has a temple that mysteriously grew (and still grows I believe) around it right in the heart of the city. Anyone can go look for it if they like and many have tried. I think there is a shrine nearby that names all the failed attempts at godhood.
You may be right about most people not being sure of its existence around the whole of Golarion, but the Inner Sea region around Absalom doesn't leave much question. Its existence is part of 3 of the 20 core religions. Faiths and followers can certainly be wrong, but I think the Starstone's existence is accepted knowledge. No guarantees. I haven't read everything either ;)
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The Starstone is not something that the average person can see or interact with. As far as most people could say, it might not even exist. His largest church in Absolom is now an Chellish embassy, and Chelliax is overwriting his history on a daily basis with "Alternative History".See or interact with directly? No. But it's not exactly hidden either. It has a temple that mysteriously grew (and still grows I believe) around it right in the heart of the city. Anyone can go look for it if they like and many have tried. I think there is a shrine nearby that names all the failed attempts at godhood.
You may be right about most people not being sure of its existence around the whole of Golarion, but the Inner Sea region around Absalom doesn't leave much question. Its existence is part of 3 of the 20 core religions. Faiths and followers can certainly be wrong, but I think the Starstone's existence is accepted knowledge. No guarantees. I haven't read everything either ;)
IMHO there is a difference between faith and knowledge. People can see the existence of divinity around them, but can't be sure that everything that is put forward for a deity is truth or fact. There is a bit of Schrodinger's cat thing going on with the Starstone. It's in a box and we can't see it. The only people who have seen it, didn't leave the way they came in and certainly didn't discuss what happened when they went into the cathedral.
Having said that I doubt that will ever get detailed as well as it would take away from game masters from telling their stories of assertion. (not a criticism)
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As someone who runs a mix of both homebrew and APs, I've seen both sides of this 'is the mystery a good thing' coin.
Back in the earlier 3.0/3.5 days, I ran a lot of campaigns in the Iron Kingdoms, which was the RPG setting for Privateer Press's Warmachine/Hordes setting. As someone well-versed in the wargame side of that setting, I was diligent to try and keep my setting as close to 'canon' as possible. Partly because I felt it added to the verisimilitude of the game I was running, and secondly, because I was loathe for new products to come out that would invalidate my campaign decisions. Unlike Golarion, the IKRPG setting was an evolving product, with nations falling to enemies, and major NPCs being killed, and all sorts of political madness and major events occurring.
I like settings where the world evolves. It means that things are kept fresh, and there's always something unexpected around the next corner. It's a pain in the butt to keep track of as a GM, but I find it adds to the game, especially when the players are really knowledgeable about the setting. Cut to the Aroden Mystery; if I have a player who's as knowledgeable about the setting as I am, answering that mystery is the effective equivalent of writing fan-fiction, as that player knows my interpretation isn't 101% exactly what the lore is!
Now, that 'fan-fiction' isn't necessarily a bad thing. Most of the games that people play are about making new stories entirely out of OFFICIAL OMG CANON!!!11!!1!. Player actions are entirely 'out of canon' anyways, but it's important to recognize what the GM/players expect out of their games.
Again, I'm a GM who tries to stick to as much established lore as possible. Golarion doesn't really 'advance the setting', beyond a few VERY SPECIFIC situations. That being said, it's also not a setting that's entirely accessible for GMs 101% concerned about sticking to canon for their adventures. The Adventure Paths often throw a bit of a spanner into this operation, as they tend to answer important mysteries. Case and point: Numeria. Up until Iron Gods, there were lots of major mysteries about that nation, but now, a lot of them are answered. If I'd been running a non-AP game in Numeria, and the AP came out, it'd probably throw me for a whirl, as I'm a GM who likes to stick to 'the facts'. But again, that's just because of how I tend to GM/prep my games, and honestly 'the facts' are what your game decides they are.
So, I tend to see the Aroden Mystery as something really positive for the campaign. It's something I can work into my games, without ever worrying about it being answered in some AP or CS book. It's a really powerful plot hook, which I can then use to create my own games. If anything, I wish there were a few more 'sacrosanct mysteries' in the setting, that I'd know wouldn't get touched in print. But that's just the canon-nut in me ;)
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Aroden's church under the Taldans didn't take over Varisia, iirc.
So, if you are reading Rise of the Runelords, of course, Aroden's influence isn't felt. But his footprint is all over Cheliax.
Well we know that the Runelords knew who he was so there was some influence.
And who could say how much influence was had there. The Runelords and much of their people were of the same racial (Azlanti) stock.
The Runelords were long slumbered by the time Taldor and their Aroden Church began marching all over Avistan.
Aroden had no power in Thassilon. Taldor never conquered Varisia. Cheliax was beyond Thassilon and it was firmly under the grip of the Arodenites.
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Aroden's church under the Taldans didn't take over Varisia, iirc.
So, if you are reading Rise of the Runelords, of course, Aroden's influence isn't felt. But his footprint is all over Cheliax.
Well we know that the Runelords knew who he was so there was some influence.
And who could say how much influence was had there. The Runelords and much of their people were of the same racial (Azlanti) stock.
The Runelords were long slumbered by the time Taldor and their Aroden Church began marching all over Avistan.
Aroden had no power in Thassilon. Taldor never conquered Varisia. Cheliax was beyond Thassilon and it was firmly under the grip of the Arodenites.
Aroden was known to the Runelords prior to Earthfall. It's been established in the Pathfinder comics. He wasn't worshiped, but he was considered powerful figure. The knew of his resistance to those who wanted to become emperor of Azlant but he deemed to week to have the Diamond Sword and the throne.
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If anything, I wish there were a few more 'sacrosanct mysteries' in the setting, that I'd know wouldn't get touched in print. But that's just the canon-nut in me
I guess my main problem is that I can't be sure that it will ever stay this way. Opinions can change over time, as can the necessities of business. I fully believe that Erik, James and Co. mean what they say when they say they won't solve this particular mystery. But I also fully believe that they (or whoever might be in power some years in the future) might one day change their mind about it for whatever (most probably good) reasons.
But more importantly, it's a matter of time and energy. I've been struggling for years now with my homebrew because I don't have time and energy enough to make substantial progress on it. That's one of the more important reasons why I use published settings at all. But if there's a mystery in that setting for which I know there will never be a canonical solution, the fact that I would have to do the solving myself is exactly why I don't even touch it (again, lack of time and energy).
The good thing about it is, that there's a lot of awesome stuff that Paizo actually describes via setting books and adventures, so as far as I'm concerned the lack of a distinct answer regarding the death of Aroden is a problem that is nice to have.
*goes back to memorize all the goodness that is the Qadira setting book*
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Not asking you to, it's honest praise. A lot of businesses would try to talk around that point, push the merits of the AP, the intrinsic value of owning such a landmark installment in your AP line as a collectors item if nothing else, or other hard sell pitches. Yes, even on their own forums.
It's usually really tiresome and transparent so it's nice that you guys are open about the fact that you are a business first and foremost instead of trying to deny it even though it's an open secret.
seconding this statement. How you guys approach the money side aspect of this industry is great. With an open source rules system(and all the stats on the d20 site) the things we buy are the stories, and how these particular stories (in the APs) are presented give us, the consumers, the information to make the choice to buy what we want. Then we come here pick it apart(in a good way).
And then you guys get on these boards and explain the things we don't understand, or need help with. And I haven't seen anyone here charged for that yet.
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Aroden was known to the Runelords prior to Earthfall. It's been established in the Pathfinder comics. He wasn't worshiped, but he was considered powerful figure. The knew of his resistance to those who wanted to become emperor of Azlant but he deemed to week to have the Diamond Sword and the throne.Aroden's church under the Taldans didn't take over Varisia, iirc.
So, if you are reading Rise of the Runelords, of course, Aroden's influence isn't felt. But his footprint is all over Cheliax.
Well we know that the Runelords knew who he was so there was some influence.
And who could say how much influence was had there. The Runelords and much of their people were of the same racial (Azlanti) stock.
The Runelords were long slumbered by the time Taldor and their Aroden Church began marching all over Avistan.
Aroden had no power in Thassilon. Taldor never conquered Varisia. Cheliax was beyond Thassilon and it was firmly under the grip of the Arodenites.
The Runelords in Thassilon knew of him at the time. But he was over in Azlant. Then Earthfall happened, and the Runelords went underground.
Aroden came to Avistan and did his thing, and the Taldans conquered most of Avistan and set up his church pretty much everywhere they went. But they didn't get to Varisia. The Cheliaxans later settled some of southern Varisia, but that's about the extent of Aroden's church in the country.
My point is that Aroden's just not that important in the Varisia material, because he's not important, canonically, to Varisia. He's really important in other places, as has been highlighted in the three Cheliaxan based APs.
A general assumption regarding Aroden's death?
Okay, how about the following: "Asmodeus, at the very least, has some knowledge of how and/or where it happened".
Unfortunately, Asmodeus appears to be pretty tight-lipped on the subject as are all the other deities. The possible reasons are numerous. Maybe Aroden violated some ancient pact between Deities and the Fiends of the Lower Planes and was killed to preserve the peace? Maybe an extremely powerful but still mortal being managed to kill Aroden but the rest of the gods managed to seal the powerful being away and don't want to risk it being released (or for mortals to know it's possible for them to kill the gods). Maybe one of Aroden's old enemies in the multiverse managed to get revenge finally against the god of humanity. Or maybe Aroden isn't dead and was in-fact sealed away by some greater power?
Whatever the case, one thing is clear, Aroden isn't a player at the chess board anymore. Imprisoned, death, or both, it's something that's not likely to change anytime soon and if the Gods (or any other power in the Multiverse) know something, they show no signs of spilling the beans.
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Aroden was known to the Runelords prior to Earthfall. It's been established in the Pathfinder comics. He wasn't worshiped, but he was considered powerful figure. The knew of his resistance to those who wanted to become emperor of Azlant but he deemed to week to have the Diamond Sword and the throne.Aroden's church under the Taldans didn't take over Varisia, iirc.
So, if you are reading Rise of the Runelords, of course, Aroden's influence isn't felt. But his footprint is all over Cheliax.
Well we know that the Runelords knew who he was so there was some influence.
And who could say how much influence was had there. The Runelords and much of their people were of the same racial (Azlanti) stock.
The Runelords were long slumbered by the time Taldor and their Aroden Church began marching all over Avistan.
Aroden had no power in Thassilon. Taldor never conquered Varisia. Cheliax was beyond Thassilon and it was firmly under the grip of the Arodenites.
The Runelords in Thassilon knew of him at the time. But he was over in Azlant. Then Earthfall happened, and the Runelords went underground.
Aroden came to Avistan and did his thing, and the Taldans conquered most of Avistan and set up his church pretty much everywhere they went. But they didn't get to Varisia. The Cheliaxans later settled some of southern Varisia, but that's about the extent of Aroden's church in the country.
My point is that Aroden's just not that important in the Varisia material, because he's not important, canonically, to Varisia. He's really important in other places, as has been highlighted in the three Cheliaxan based APs.
I'm not sure you can say that as the Azlanti refugees started washing up on those shores right after earthfall. At best I think you can say its not revealed yet, Aroden was the wanderer. As for his religion, no I don't think that it made an impact. But for the man himself, thats for the story writers to decide.
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Why would you have to solve it?
Because Paizo said they won't do it for me? :)
Ok, that's probably not what you were asking about. What I meant was: IF I want to use this mystery and solve it, I have to do it myself for the above reason.
And in my mind, as this mystery is so central to what has happened in the hundred years since Aroden's death, It's not a simple matter to invent something in five minutes. It would have to be a solution deeply steeped in Golarion lore, and that's where the time/energy factor comes in. When the Realms still were a thing for me, I invested a heavy amount of time to learn as much as anyhow possible about the setting. With Golarion (and especially with me getting older), I've found that I can't keep up with the amount of stuff produced for the setting.
Meaning that I'd rather leave the mystery be than to invent something that I consider to be substandard.
My point is that Aroden's just not that important in the Varisia material, because he's not important, canonically, to Varisia. He's really important in other places, as has been highlighted in the three Cheliaxan based APs.
The influence is maybe not as direct as in Cheliax, but it's still there.
Varisia becoming independent from Chelaxian rule is a direct consequence of Aroden's death and the resulting Civil War in Cheliax. The founding of Magnimar is a direct consequence of the Korvosan decision to follow the new infernal ways of the Chelaxiam homeland.
So chances are that Varisia would be a very different place today if not for the death of the God of Humanity.
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The influence is maybe not as direct as in Cheliax, but it's still there.
Varisia becoming independent from Chelaxian rule is a direct consequence of Aroden's death and the resulting Civil War in Cheliax. The founding of Magnimar is a direct consequence of the Korvosan decision to follow the new infernal ways of the Chelaxiam homeland.
So chances are that Varisia would be a very different place today if not for the death of the God of Humanity.
That's an impact in Cheliax, for the most part. Aroden's influence in Varisia appears to be rather marginal.
I was one of those "couple of others", I believe. I was absolutely not on my best behavior here and I have certainly overreacted. Mea culpa. I can only offer my sincere apologies to those I offended with my unnecessarily harsh words.
Now, If it's indeed the case the case that Aroden's death is intended as a blank for each GM to fulfill as needed, then I'm perfectly okay with that. My problem would be if an answer was settled on and not shared.
On this respect, allow me to say that maybe giving some contradictory information and releasing confusing statements would be, actually, a good idea. Internal coherence implies that the answer is settled on and canonically relevant.
I don't see how knowing the "canon" answer to what happened to Aroden robs me, or anyone else, as a GM of the ability to create their own answer. Golarion has a lot of features to its world-building that I dislike and I've always just ignored them or worked my way around them without compliant. If Paizo's answer to Aroden's death was unsatisfying in my opinion or didn't fit for my games, I could always just do what I've always done. Of course, the opposite could happen and the answer could be so interesting that it inspires me. I Just wish I had the...
I'm pretty much with this guy. XD
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If your decision to keep your personal "working theory" isn't happy-making for some of your fans, why do it? Why not let us know in a blog -- nothing "official" -- what your personal theory is? If we as GMs want to tell a different story, you're still freeing us to do so. End of mystery in the sense of withholding information, on-going mystery in the sense of what we make of it.Why not?
Because I don't have a personal theory.
I do not know how Aroden died, or why, or who did it, or in which room it happened. I don't find those things to be the interesting parts about him. In fact, it's kind of the one aspect of the character that I don't find particularly interesting.
The interesting thing to me is more in the "what now" aspect of what happens to the campaign world when "God" dies. What happens to institutions, to culture, etc. Add to that the idea that this also casts prophecy in doubt, and you've got a bunch of inherent questions that are more interesting to me than "who did it."
I never really considered "who did it" when I created Aroden. I left that to be determined later, to be woven into other stories by other authors, very likely stories that hadn't been considered yet, left for future development if we decided to develop it at all.
The "working theory" is more something James and others have pieced together in the time since Aroden's creation, tying in the few clues that I left with other cool stuff that they're planning to have a "maybe this is how it went down," but as I mentioned earlier, even that's flexible until we actually decide to address the issue. If we do.
I could outline an entire Aroden-focused Adventure Path with all kinds of insight into his life, his cult, and the ruins of his influence, but to be perfectly honest I'm not certain even that would answer the question of how he died.
I like that the people of Golarion don't know. So long as there's no "official" answer, the answer is free to be whatever you want it to be.
It's posts like these, and...
Yup; as Rysky says, the AP books ARE setting books. We've been publishing setting material in the AP line longer than any other line with the exception of the modules line (and that exception only predates the AP line by a few months).
There's more than adventures in each volume of the Adventure Path. By design. We WANT people to buy them, including people who don't run Adventure Paths. Because that makes us more money, which allows us to make more books for you to buy in ALL the lines.
We don't hide the fact that we put world content into the APs, and never have. There's lots of them to track, yes, but each and every one of them has a summary online here at paizo.com so you can pick and choose which ones to buy if you're only looking for world content. Or barring that, post a question here to the boards so folks can say, for example, "Oh there's an Aroden article in Pathfinder #100."
... these, and...
As someone who runs a mix of both homebrew and APs, I've seen both sides of this 'is the mystery a good thing' coin.
Back in the earlier 3.0/3.5 days, I ran a lot of campaigns in the Iron Kingdoms, which was the RPG setting for Privateer Press's Warmachine/Hordes setting. As someone well-versed in the wargame side of that setting, I was diligent to try and keep my setting as close to 'canon' as possible. Partly because I felt it added to the verisimilitude of the game I was running, and secondly, because I was loathe for new products to come out that would invalidate my campaign decisions. Unlike Golarion, the IKRPG setting was an evolving product, with nations falling to enemies, and major NPCs being killed, and all sorts of political madness and major events occurring.
I like settings where the world evolves. It means that things are kept fresh, and there's always something unexpected around the next corner. It's a pain in the butt to keep track of as a GM, but I find it adds to the game, especially when the players are really knowledgeable about the setting. Cut to the Aroden Mystery; if I have a player who's as knowledgeable about the setting as I am, answering that mystery is the effective equivalent of writing fan-fiction, as that player knows my interpretation isn't 101% exactly what the lore is!
Now, that 'fan-fiction' isn't necessarily a bad thing. Most of the games that people play are about making new stories entirely out of OFFICIAL OMG CANON!!!11!!1!. Player actions are entirely 'out of canon' anyways, but it's important to recognize what the GM/players expect out of their games.
Again, I'm a GM who tries to stick to as much established lore as possible. Golarion doesn't really 'advance the setting', beyond a few VERY SPECIFIC situations. That being said, it's also not a setting that's entirely accessible for GMs 101% concerned about sticking to canon for their adventures. The Adventure Paths often throw a bit of a spanner into this operation, as they tend to answer important...
... these are why I'm so glad you guys post on these boards.
Thank you all.
Keep rocking. :)
(Incidentally, I'm like you, Thirsty, but with the difference that I tend to prefer answers. Oops.)
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Never really liked the Aroden mystery. It's a narrative device and setting and background dressing that is framed as a mystery with no answer. That's what frustrates people, because half of the fun of a mystery is solving it. So they see this mystery, find out it'll never be solved, and just feel frustrated and that the decision was a bad one. Especially since Aroden's death is a huge deal and feel ripe for a possible awesome adventure that we'll never see.
Personally, I would have preferred what Eclipse Phase does with their TITANS and ETI adventure. The TITANS leaving after going full on Skynet and ETI are these huge mysteries that define the setting. However, the players can still have adventures uncovering the mysteries behind the TITAN's disappearance and who the ETI are and their connection to the exurgent virus. They give the GM a bunch of ideas on what caused the TITANS to run and why the ETI created the Exurgent Virus to use in their setting. That way, the GM could make the setting theirs and had some good, reasonable answers to the mystery. I wish Aroden was handled more like that. Right now, because of the lack of closure for it, Aroden doesn't really interest me. I'm more interested in the other Adventure Paths where players can actually uncover those mysteries and do those adventures.