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{. . .}
Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall seeing anyone from Paizo shooting down theories. The situation seems complex enough that it's unlikely someone solved the mystery exactly, but there used to be a ton of theories about Aroden's demise years ago and I bet someone came pretty close. It's most important that your theory works for you.
Somewhere in a Paizo Messageboards thread a long time ago and far, far away . . .
I put forth the theory that Aroden wasn't really dead, and had actually done the Metro Man thing.
THAT got shot down by James Jacobs himself, but NOT as a response to my post (and not even in the same thread -- weird, huh?).
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Group hug?
Group hug!
I put forth the theory that Aroden wasn't really dead, and had actually done the Metro Man thing (see Megamind).
THAT got shot down by James Jacobs himself, but NOT as a response to my post (wierd, huh?).
Aroden's dead, but what does that mean for his soul? Did he become a petitioner somewhere? An angel? Get absorbed into the cosmos? I believe Pharasma judged him, so he had to be sent off somewhere, right?
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Pish pash posh! All we know is that Aroden is missing. The death is presumed.
Group hug. :)
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Group hug?
Group hug!
Aroden's dead, but what does that mean for his soul? Did he become a petitioner somewhere? An angel? Get absorbed into the cosmos? I believe Pharasma judged him, so he had to be sent off somewhere, right?I put forth the theory that Aroden wasn't really dead, and had actually done the Metro Man thing (see Megamind).
THAT got shot down by James Jacobs himself, but NOT as a response to my post (wierd, huh?).
You know, I just realized that James Jacobs DIDN'T say that Aroden didn't do the Obiwan Kenobi thing . . . .
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James Jacobs doesn't say a lot of things. For instance, he still hasn't admitted that T-Rexes are basically bloated kobolds with worse arms.
Arm envy is a sad thing to witness.
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^But, you have to admit, a better Strength score, and a Bite attack to envy . . . .
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Pfft, only a 32 Str?
I could build a Kobold with more than that.
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Are we allowed to criticize this game? Try to discuss things that we think could be done better, or things we would like the creators to change? Or will the creators then come in and then tell us that if we don't like it, we should leave - as happened here in this very thread? Instead of them entertaining the thought that 'maybe we here on Paizo could change our opinion'. I'm not saying they should! It's their creation. But they could entertain the thought.
I don't feel like the Paizo staff really appreciate or understand what a positive community they have here. Just look at his thread. A creator points out one comment, that I agree was harsh and personal, and what happens? Other people bend over backwards apologizing - even though they didn't say anything harsh themselves, but had a criticism about the setting and thought there's something that Paizo could change or improve.
These forums are full of love and appreciation for Paizo's work. But that seems to be taken for granted, and generally met with with silence or indifference. Instead, the staff tend to swoop in as soon as someone is critical of the game and focus on that. I know, it's easy to see the speck of criticism in a sea of appreciation, but, well--- I think that if you sell your work to people you should be ready to receive opinions about it. Not to suffer abuse, but that's not what makes up this thread, and generally not what's aired on these forums - at least from what I see. I'm a paid creator, in my day job. I get criticized by clients. I then try to listen to them. Sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. But I listen, even though I think they are wrong, because it is one way for me to improve in my profession. If nothing else, it might improve my patience.
Anyway, big kudos to KC and Cap'n and others for hugging it out. I've spent lots of time on MMO forums in days of yore, and man... there's no hugging on MMO forums. I think Paizo should be really, really proud about the community they have here - even though parts of it sometimes criticize their creations.
As for the topic, I suggested previously that they could "update" their mysteries. James Jacobs said here in this thread that they are not interested in telling stories about the death of Aroden. I think that's a wasted opportunity. I believe a story about the death of Aroden would constitute a fantastic AP, as Yakman suggested, and I think it would sell really well. And this AP could raise new questions, new mysteries that Paizo could entice us with. And, I don't think it would necessary need to include the full answer to this whodunnit (personally I think it was Colonel Mustard in the drawing room with the candlestick) if the Paizo folks really want to hang on to the answer, but I think it would make a fantastic AP nonetheless.
Exploring Absolom, the Starstone cathedral, tracing Aroden's steps as a mortal, hunting for old clerics holding clues, entering decrepit temples of the fallen god... the death of Aroden could become a really cool part of the setting instead of just a backdrop, and I think it would absolutely be worth telling stories about.
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Are we allowed to criticize this game? Try to discuss things that we think could be done better, or things we would like the creators to change? Or will the creators then come in and then tell us that if we don't like it, we should leave - as happened here in this very thread? Instead of them entertaining the thought that 'maybe we here on Paizo could change our opinion'. I'm not saying they should! - it's their creation. But they could entertain the thought.
This was Jame's words on that,
I'm sorry some folks are disappointed or frustrated by our decision to keep Aroden's death a mystery.
If this one mystery is ruining the setting for you, then maybe you should consider telling other stories in Golarion that focus on topics other than Aroden. That's pretty much what we've done with the setting—Aroden's death set up the current era, but we aren't interested in telling stories about Aroden's death. That's why we had that event occur a century BEFORE the current in-game year. We are more interested in telling other stories in a world that, 100 years ago, had a significant change take place.
If not knowing how Aroden died is that big a deal, then maybe Golarion isn't the setting for you. That's fine. Not everyone has to like every thing.
As for the second comment, saying that if not knowing is such a big deal (that it becomes unfun) then maybe you should try a different setting is different than if you don't like it, leave, as evidenced by the first bolded comment.
I don't feel like the Paizo staff really appreciate or understand what a positive community they have here.This is veering awfully close to "Nice Guy" mentality.
Just look at his thread. A creator points out one comment, that I agree was harsh and personal, and what happens? Other people bend over backwards apologizing - even though they didn't say anything harsh themselves, but had a criticism about the setting and thought there's something that Paizo could change or improve.
The only apologizing I've seen in here is for the arguments starting, not really anything in regards to the criticisms itself (unless that slipped by me).
These forums are full of love and appreciation for Paizo's work.It's also stuffed full of hate and disapproval, just look into the Rules Forums.
But that seems to be taken for granted, and generally met with with silence or indifference. Instead, the staff tend to swoop in as soon as someone is critical of the game and meet the love with a shrug.As opposed to constant gushing and nonstop appreciation for you (general you, not you in particular) being appreciative?
I know, it's easy to see the speck of criticism in a sea of appreciation, but come on.It's more than a speck, but yes, negativity tends to override any positivity.
If you sell your work to people you should be ready to receive opinions about it. That's a facet of having a profession. I'm a paid creator, in my day job. I get criticized by clients. I then try to listen to them. Sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are wrong. But I listen, even though I think they are wrong, because it is one way for me to improve in my profession. If nothing else, it might improve my patience.Here ya go.
Anyway, big kudos to KC and Cap'n and others for hugging it out. I've spent lots of time on MMO forums in days of yore, and man... there's no hugging on MMO forums. I think Paizo should be really, really proud about the community they have here - even though parts of it sometimes criticize their creations.
I would assume they are for the msot part, otherwise they would spend less time here.
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Considering the decay that happened to the Serpent Folk after the 'death' of Ydersius, I am honestly surprised that more humans are not attempting to find out what happened to Aroden and fix it, before the same decay affects humans. Or maybe it already has. Hrrm. Interesting thought: perhaps the assassination of Aroden was a potentially successful attempt to destroy all humans?
Interesting!
The largest human civilization, one that expanded across and explored the known world, Taldor, has fallen into decline, with various nations splitting off from it. A nation centered primarily around his faith has fallen to diabolism, and literally embraces Hell.
Decline of humanity, as a race? You're soaking in it!
If one were inclined, this would be a great seed to steer Golarion away from being a humanocentric setting, with the current situation of Taldor, bemoaning it's glory days (and sort of reliving that, rather than facing their decline), being spread around the world. (Tian Xa is already facing a similar situation, with a great nation fallen into a dozen successor states, some ruled by oni, a kraken or jorogumo!)
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As for the second comment, saying that if not knowing is such a big deal (that it becomes unfun) then maybe you should try a different setting is different than if you don't like it, leave, as evidenced by the first bolded comment.
Well, it's more the attitude that I reacted to than the exact semantics or interpretation. If you think your creation is perfect, and anyone that questions it should turn away as opposed to you listening to them, you're missing out on (maybe!) improving it. But sure, that's maybe not what they think and it might just have sounded like that in my head, and then I apologize for making that mistake.
This is veering awfully close to "Nice Guy" mentality.
To quote yourself, WUT? Googling that leads to "friend zone"-explanations which I suppose is not what you meant.
The only apologizing I've seen in here is for the arguments starting, not really anything in regards to the criticisms itself (unless that slipped by me).
Well, at least three people that disapprove of the Arodenite abandonment and its status quo did, including the OP. Then again, I don't really see your agenda with this comment - do you disagree that the forum community here seem to be generally decent people worth listening to? Or just that wrote something that's factually incorrect? If it is the last, I hope my point is still clear (that I think people here are worth listening to, even when they might disagree with the powers that be).
It's also stuffed full of hate and disapproval, just look into the Rules Forums.
One exception doesn't make it so. Of course, it a matter of perception. Maybe I've come from forums that are akin to Gomorrah and thus I see the Paizo forums as all unicorns and rainbows. Maybe someone else comes here, see the Rules forum and are appalled by this wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Here ya go.
*Shrug*. Sure, scary stories, Maybe I have unusually nice and reasonable clients/customers. But so, I think, does Paizo as well. That's why I think they should please try to listen to feedback, and see it as a way to perhaps improve their products, and not as an attack on themselves (most of the time, I must unfortunately add). Focusing on one harsh voice and dismissing the rest of the constructive criticism and ideas is unfortunate. Again, I don't think Paizo should develop what their customers 'orders' them to - because they are much, much better at this than we are. But they shouldn't, I think, say "never!" either.
Edited after Rysky's reply, sorry. I'm an editaholic.
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The "Nice Guy" mentality does pare with the "friend zone", in this case your post came across as "We're being nice, why aren't we getting anything for it? You should be grateful we're being nice." which is what "Nice Guy" mentality falls under, being nice solely under the impression that you'll get or are even owed something for doing so, rather than being nice to be nice. I don't think you intended it that way, but it did read like it.
I wouldn't call this thread or the rules forums simply an exception, there's plenty grar directed at Paizo all over this site, along with the love and support.
As for the CFH link, that was a complete non-sequitur I thought you might be interested in :3
Golarion still has prophecy. The Harrow deck is more than many settings have, too.
There's a difference between prophecy and divination. The Harrow deck is a tool for the latter.
And that doesn't mean that there aren't still prophets. It's just that they're now more mysterious and less reliable. I like that in a game: stories of "So it was ordained..." or "You are destined to..." reek of lazy storytelling to me. They're overdone in the genre.
I like the clean break the death of prophecy provides. Honestly, prophecy storylines have never worked well in an RPG due to player agency. I mean, seriously: As soon as PCs hear an NPC tell them, "Your future is thus..." they will do everything in their power to avoid that fate, even it was a good one!
"What? I'm destined to defeat the Dark Lord and restore untiy to the Forces of Magic? Screw that! I just want to get rich!"
The "Nice Guy" mentality does pare with the "friend zone", in this case your post came across as "We're being nice, why aren't we getting anything for it? You should be grateful we're being nice." which is what "Nice Guy" mentality falls under, being nice solely under the impression that you'll get or are even owed something for doing so, rather than being nice to be nice. I don't think you intended it that way, but it did read like it.
I wouldn't call this thread or the rules forums simply an exception, there's plenty grar directed at Paizo all over this site, along with the love and support.
As for the CFH link, that was a complete non-sequitur I thought you might be interested in :3
Ah ok, thank you. That is not exactly what I meant, rather that I have gotten the impression that Paizo sometimes seem to be quick to dismiss criticism like it's always something bad, and my point was that I think that people here generally seem to like the game and Paizo a lot, and the criticism might because of that come from a good place instead of a bad one. Sorry if I explained that badly or in an unclear way, English is not my first language which adds to my opaqueness.
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Ah ok, thank you. That is not exactly what I meant, rather that I have gotten the impression that Paizo sometimes seem to be quick to dismiss criticism like it always something bad, and my point was that I think that people here generally seem to like the game and Paizo a lot, and the criticism might because of that come from a good place instead of a bad one. Sorry if I explained that badly or in an unclear way, English is not my first language which adds to my opaqueness.The "Nice Guy" mentality does pare with the "friend zone", in this case your post came across as "We're being nice, why aren't we getting anything for it? You should be grateful we're being nice." which is what "Nice Guy" mentality falls under, being nice solely under the impression that you'll get or are even owed something for doing so, rather than being nice to be nice. I don't think you intended it that way, but it did read like it.
I wouldn't call this thread or the rules forums simply an exception, there's plenty grar directed at Paizo all over this site, along with the love and support.
As for the CFH link, that was a complete non-sequitur I thought you might be interested in :3
Ish okay, I kinda figured you meant it like this instead :3
I don't mean to sound snippy, but I've written out my little thinkpiece on Death of the Author, like, three times now. So I'm just gonna repost it instead of spending the next half-hour trying to find yet more synonyms for "canon" and "theory". :P
I finally wiki'ed Death of the Author. Knowing what you were referring to helped me understand your post. Just FYI.
(And my college called me an English major! We did post-DotA literary theory without ever talking about the impetus.)
{Edited to fix link.}
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I certainly hope my reasons for disliking the way Aroden's 'mystery' has been handled didn't cause frustration or the like for Paizo's staff. I have a lot of respect for them, and in all honesty it is a relatively minor part of what's been pushing me away from the setting. That's mostly been the recent APs, to be honest. Cheliax for a year, followed by Lovecraft, followed by hobgoblins (reminded me of Red Hand of Doom, which I personally don't need) followed by Azlant/aboleths is just hitting every 'off' button for me for over a year. So it's not just one thing. It's a host of things.
If you think your creation is perfect, and anyone that questions it should turn away as opposed to you listening to them, you're missing out on (maybe!) improving it. But sure, that's maybe not what they think and it might just have sounded like that in my head, and then I apologize for making that mistake.
The suggestion I saw in this thread from James was more akin to a waiter at a restaurant. Don't like the chicken parm? We have many other dishes as well. Try the beef stew. That's the whole point of Golarion being a "kitchen sink" setting after all. Most regions are enclosed enough that you can do glorious adventures without worrying about the rest.
And Paizo does listen to fans. That doesn't mean their responses make everyone happy but they clearly try. For example, Pathfinder Unchained is basically a response to years of feedback and shows a lot more consideration than the optional systems in the Ultimate books.
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Group hugs would be nice...
Well, at least three people that disapprove of the Arodenite abandonment and its status quo did, including the OP.
Uh, I think disapprove is pretty strong word that I don't remember expressing.
I mean, my problem was that I'm unable to care about mystery that I think is suppose to be important, so while I do agree that Arodenites not being around anymore leads to Aroden being super easy to ignore...
...Actually, now that I think about it, I do have something to comment about .-. I forgot who originally mentioned them, but someone pointed out expectations given by telling straight out there won't be answer to it and someone else pointed out Inner Sea's overall theme.
First on mysteries without answer, like I said, I don't mind being direct with customers and telling them they won't ever answer the mystery, but it ''is'' part of reason why Aroden mystery got my attention in first place. I mean, without that, it would have been just another one of setting's mysteries we don't know answer to, but because its singled out as one they won't answer, it sets up the expectation that its really important mystery and its answer would be mind blowing. Which lead to me being confused about why I'm not interested in the super important mystery in first place.
Its kinda like "We won't ever tell the mystery's answer!" "Umm, okay, should I care about mystery's answer? I mean, you wouldn't tell me that answer isn't going to be told if I shouldn't care about it, right?" It makes me think though. Like, if Pathfinder was exactly the same, but we weren't ever told that Aroden mystery isn't ever going to be answered... Would things be very different?
And on second part, I do have to say its really true that Aroden's death as the setting's overall big mystery is kinda hard to buy when Aroden and prophecies not working don't feel thematically important in most of countries featured in APs nor to any of the plots as far as I know. I love kitchen sink part of Golarion, but I do have to admit its part of reason why Aroden mystery doesn't feel important. Like, I just can't remember from top of my head how Aroden is important to, say, Varisia, Osirion, ulfen's lands or Ustalav(outside of Whispering Tyrant's prison being there)
Anyway, I started to think about ways which would have raised my interest in the mystery without being about answers to it... I'll be making that as separate post when I gets my thoughts more coherent
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"Shoddy work, Mr. Jacobs" sure felt like a slap aimed directly at me, especially when the whole concept of Aroden and his death was not part of the setting that I created.I mean, they're not really slapping anyone. They're just stating their frustration with something in Golarion's lore.But right now, I'm feeling disappointed and slapped.Understood. Because I do too after reading this thread.
AKA: Sometimes, if you feel disappointed and slapped, disappointing and slapping others isn't the best way to get your concerns addressed.
Well, I'm sorry that my language was overly harsh. Many of the people here knew about this never-to-be-answered question earlier, while I was responding in the first shock of finding out. At the same time, I never said anything about you as a person. I really wasn't trying to slap you. Just your work. Or your team's, which to me is ultimately the same thing. Or am I wrong? I believe that you are in charge of all the Golarion material. So you didn't come up with the idea of killing off a god to get all the weirdness going. Are you still not in charge of deciding whether to explore his death? Whether to give it cosmic consequences that work out in your products set a century later?
If not, I'm very sorry. Please let me know who I need to be addressing. Because I still think that killing off a god but not using that in a forward-going manner is <deep breath> if not shoddy, then what? Work that isn't the best Paizo can turn out, for sure. (And I do reserve the right to tell you I think this.)
And of course, if the response is that there ARE consequences, we just have to recognize them for what they are -- that's where as a GM I get frustrated, terribly frustrated, with the lack of a head's up. Because if I give Aroden's death my own consequences, they could veer badly off from what I'll be looking at buying in the future. And I spoke out of that sense of frustration.
The best of your work is very good, Mr. Jacobs -- and that's personally directed, too, because you get the ultimate credit for everything that your team does well. I love the rich detail of Golarion. I grew up on homebrew, but you have me excited about buying your world. So please listen to me past my shocked word choices to what I'm trying to say about what would improve it.
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"Because I still think that killing off a god but not using that in a forward-going manner is <deep breath> if not shoddy, then what?"
History. Aroden's death was a part of history that shaped the world of Golarion that we play in, just like plenty of other historical events.
"Because if I give Aroden's death my own consequences, they could veer badly off from what I'll be looking at buying in the future."
You don't have to worry about this, since it still stands that they won't reveal the circumstances of his demise (I'm reading this as worried about making your own circumstances and story concerning his death and fearing it being invalidated if other reasons were revealed, sorry if that wasn't what you meant).
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And lastly - not a biggie, but anyway - it actually comes of a bit smug and excluding. "We know, we select few here on the inside, and you plebs on the outside's never gonna". And that's not really the best way to treat people that pay your cheetos.
Huh. I always took Paizo's position as "this historical event has a coherent cause and you don't need to worry that something we publish in the future will accidentally make it nonsensical".
I don't assume that the answer as to "why/how did Aroden die" is actually interesting. The answer isn't meant to be interesting. The event was catalytic.
So I don't get smug. I get competent.
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"Because I still think that killing off a god but not using that in a forward-going manner is <deep breath> if not shoddy, then what?"
History. Aroden's death was a part of history that shaped the world of Golarion that we play in, just like plenty of other historical events.
"Because if I give Aroden's death my own consequences, they could veer badly off from what I'll be looking at buying in the future."
You don't have to worry about this, since it still stands that they won't reveal the circumstances of his demise (I'm reading this as worried about making your own circumstances and story concerning his death and fearing it being invalidated if other reasons were revealed, sorry if that wasn't what you meant).
You're quite correct in your interpretation of my words.
I mean, what if Asmodeus & a consortium of demon lords (and maybe some divs?) got together and decided to have it out once and for all but not destroy their home planes in the doing. And they offed Aroden together to get themselves entry. So now they're battling it out on Golarion as a consequence of the death of a god. That's one story I can tell.
But if Paizo starts talking about deities growing fainter... if clues get published that something is attacking deities in general, including Asmodeus, demon lords, and whatnot... Now what do I do?
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"Because I still think that killing off a god but not using that in a forward-going manner is <deep breath> if not shoddy, then what?"
History. Aroden's death was a part of history that shaped the world of Golarion that we play in, just like plenty of other historical events.
"Because if I give Aroden's death my own consequences, they could veer badly off from what I'll be looking at buying in the future."
You don't have to worry about this, since it still stands that they won't reveal the circumstances of his demise (I'm reading this as worried about making your own circumstances and story concerning his death and fearing it being invalidated if other reasons were revealed, sorry if that wasn't what you meant).
You're quite correct in your interpretation of my words.
I mean, what if Asmodeus & a consortium of demon lords (and maybe some divs?) got together and decided to have it out once and for all but not destroy their home planes in the doing. And they offed Aroden together to get themselves entry. So now they're battling it out on Golarion as a consequence of the death of a god. That's one story I can tell.
But if Paizo starts talking about deities growing fainter... if clues get published that something is attacking deities in general, including Asmodeus, demon lords, and whatnot... Now what do I do?
The same thing you've been doing, because they won't. Outside of a Pathfinder or Golarion 2.0
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The chances of that happening are zero, because of HOW irrelevant Aroden's death is to anything.
"It's not guessable and there are no clues" is the second half of "We know and aren't going to tell you".
That status means it is impossible for Aroden's death to have any consequence, tangential or otherwise besides surface stuff ("Ooh we're angry Aroden cultists who are so mayud he's dead we're gonna blow things up ooooh").
So there is literally no need to worry that Aroden's death or anything vaguely related to it will ever matter to anyone, anywhere because that would be a "clue".
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It does seem like a missed opportunity not to use Aroden history for more material, even if what we get has absolutely nothing to do with his death. The whole Pyramid Eye icon certainly screams "Mystery Cult" or "Occult Society" group so I get why people get twisted up about it. However, I would much rather get nothing than get something rushed or botched.
But the thing is with missed opportunities is that they might just come around. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to see more written about his church prior to his death. What influence his church had on arcane spell casters.
I like what we have seen so far and maybe what I'm hoping for is more in the line of a novel, rather than source book.
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The chances of that happening are zero, because of HOW irrelevant Aroden's death is to anything.
"It's not guessable and there are no clues" is the second half of "We know and aren't going to tell you".
That status means it is impossible for Aroden's death to have any consequence, tangential or otherwise besides surface stuff ("Ooh we're angry Aroden cultists who are so mayud he's dead we're gonna blow things up ooooh").
So there is literally no need to worry that Aroden's death or anything vaguely related to it will ever matter to anyone, anywhere because that would be a "clue".
eh. You could do a White Wolf and throw out tons of clues, none of which - or all of which - might be true, or possibly false.
A gigantic sword plummets from the heavens, coated in divine blood. Is that what killed Aroden? Is that his blood? You could run a whole campaign around that, and not ever find out.
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Hey, if anyone has to apologize its me for opening the rabbit hole in first place :'D Like, I was afraid people would be really rude and stuff because they are more often than not people seem to get really easily angry on public forums, but I felt I had to ask it for my own selfish reasons. I love the setting and all, but I'm really prone to feeling like a weirdo or an outsider to communities (I don't think there is any community I don't feel outsider to... I don't really have many friends and people are scary) so I'm prone to being anxious about "Am I only one who thinks like this?" so I wanted confirmation on that.Woah. This just... exploded.
I would like to formally apologize if I, in any way, harmed the positive experience of anyone here or on staff - that was not my intent, but rather to communicate my current feelings on a particular bit of the setting and lore and the events surrounding that.
I recognize, in retrospect, how that could cast poor light on someone's work, and, frankly, that's not my intent, and I'm sorry for any word choice that implied otherwise - I think that, over-all, the team does fantastic work, even when they put that work or spin it in ways different from my preferences. I like Golarion, and I like what is written and how, for the most part. It's why I keep buying the stuff, when I can afford it.
For the rest - I'm just going to peace out. Thanks to everyone who participated in a civil and pleasant manner.
Hey CorvusMask, I'm just using your post here to tag my response onto because I also wanted to say that you in no way should feel sorry or stressed for posting this thread initially. It's obviously an interesting topic that people have solid opinions about.
So....
Oh, wow. I didn’t check on this thread yesterday afternoon and was quite surprised to see it balloon up like this. I also feel somewhat responsible for the path this thread has taken by asking my sincere question Saturday. At that point, it seemed like the thread was nearing its end and people had made their opinions known. My curiosity certainly rekindled the debate, and people got emotionally attached to their arguments. I apologize for being part of any hard feelings that might have welled up from this conversation. I admit, I don’t get involved in conversations on the boards as often as I used to, because being part of the creative staff here people respond differently (and things like this can happen). I genuinely enjoy seeing how people interpret and accept and love and hate things that we do. Even when I disagree with those thoughts; sometimes especially when I disagree with those thoughts.
I was interested in the topic because it’s something I’ve thought about as a fan, as a freelancer, and now as someone who guides canon on a daily basis. (I’ll also point out, that while we know how Aroden died, the only thing that is actually canon is that he died and there were repercussions. Remember, canon isn’t canon until it’s in print. Oh, I also really like seeing people’s ideas about the reasons and backgrounds of the setting’s many mysteries. I’d be a liar if I said that none of you have ever shifted my own ideas and thoughts about certain elements over all these years.)
Carry on folks, and be nice to each other. :)
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Considering the decay that happened to the Serpent Folk after the 'death' of Ydersius, I am honestly surprised that more humans are not attempting to find out what happened to Aroden and fix it, before the same decay affects humans. Or maybe it already has. Hrrm. Interesting thought: perhaps the assassination of Aroden was a potentially successful attempt to destroy all humans?Interesting!
The largest human civilization, one that expanded across and explored the known world, Taldor, has fallen into decline, with various nations splitting off from it. A nation centered primarily around his faith has fallen to diabolism, and literally embraces Hell.
Decline of humanity, as a race? You're soaking in it!
If one were inclined, this would be a great seed to steer Golarion away from being a humanocentric setting, with the current situation of Taldor, bemoaning it's glory days (and sort of reliving that, rather than facing their decline), being spread around the world. (Tian Xa is already facing a similar situation, with a great nation fallen into a dozen successor states, some ruled by oni, a kraken or jorogumo!)
Absolutely. The evidence of human decay and decline over the past century (since whatever happened to Aroden) is definitely there. This thread has also prompted me to contemplate what that possible motive implies.
Even the sudden explosion of other races as 'playable' could be traced back to this. We never used to be able to play Goblins or Strix, for example, and now those options are available. Humans are no longer the 'major race' in this game to the same extent as they were. Their days are numbered, exactly like what happened to the Serpent Folk.
Seriously, you'd expect intelligent humans to work this out, and want to fix it. Desperately. Every bit as much as the Serpent Folk want to heal and recover Ydersius.
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I'd like to provide my opinion on this stance:
When I first read the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting the mystery jumped into my head. But sadly when I'm describing the setting to the players (who are way too lazy to read a lot of setting material) it simply falls flat, a footnote that's forgotten as soon as we veer into the specific nations. It is both too far removed from current history and has too few hooks about it to pick interest. I love it, my PCs don't care for it. Due to the complete lack of any hooks or information about that, I can't find solid ground to cook a campaign around it, and such a campaign would be a though sell for my players.
Coming from Eberron, I'm familiar with the concept of a canon-unsolvable mystery. Like the Mourning, Aroden's death is a historic event that shaped things up to where they are today. On Eberron, though, it is a more recent event that impacted the lives of everyone living on the Five Nations. There are PCs born in the destroyed nation of Cyre that live as refugees. The major powers are in a stalemate as they try actively to discover just what the hell happened. That in itself encourages campaigns built around this mystery, and the fact that there isn't (or will ever be) an official answer enables individual GMs to tackle this issue. My campaigns never focused on that, but the aftermath of that event was always felt (one campaign was entirely Cyran former military officers trying to work their way through life after the loss of their families, chain of command and kingdom).
What I mean to say is: As an historic event, it's fine. As an attention-grabbing mystery it falls flat. I'd much rather have an entire AP focused on investigation, research, and mystery leading to that resolution than just leaving it unused. Some sort of Indiana Jones National-Treasure nation-hopping-landmark-exploring-conspiracy-solving campaign. That might be a really big payoff instead of just letting it rot and lose interest year after year.
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Thanks Adam :')
Anyway, umm, I tried to gather a post about ways which would make mystery more interesting to me, but I couldn't really make any coherent unified post from it. So umm, here is that jumbled mess of my mind:
So umm option 1), first and sort of "obvious" way would be to give enough hints about it to be able to form educated theories/guesses about it without being able to confirm them or be sure what is the truth. But since point of Aroden mystery is that we can't know the answer nor we won't get hints about it that would allow us to figure out the answer, I think that wouldn't be fitting way to do that.
So umm, instead I think it would make it more fascinating if the "you can't known the truth" aspect of it from in universe perspective was played up. As it is now, it feels like the reason why we can't know anything about it IS because of meta reasons related to "we want a mystery that can't be figured out" which just kills curiosity. I think playing up flavor of it being beyond comprehension and such would make it more fascinating mystery from character perspective. If that makes sense?
Umm, moving onto option 2) which is actually my favourite one: give GMs tips/suggestions/hooks on how to use Aroden mystery in their campaigns. Like I haven't read Eberron books much, but I did see one book that had non setting specified material that suggested use for each setting with one entry being "Hey maybe you could use this as reason for Day of Mourning in your campaign!". Eclipse Phase has lists of suggestions of what TITANs or the other major conspiracies are up to. Or how Gods of Fall setting from Cypher System does with several ancient things.
Lots of those examples provide multiple contradiction suggestions of what could be up with mysteries, but it honestly doesn't need to be suggestions for the "truth" and could just be tips on how to use it in campaign even if Aroden mystery isn't central part of it. That would definitely make mystery more appealing to use by gms I think?
Option 3) provide material for gms/players were Aroden's death is thematic to the subject. Like, people have just pointed out how god of humanity's death is pretty in theme with Taldor's and Cheliax's decline, maybe having AP or player companion with theme of great civilization's decline would be good combo with Aroden's themes? Or heck, maybe campaign were BBEG takes upon Aroden's ideal of human dominance and goes on to do it in horrible imperialistic ways?
Those are stuff I figured out. Dunno if they would mystery more interesting to anyone else
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I was interested in the topic because it’s something I’ve thought about as a fan, as a freelancer, and now as someone who guides canon on a daily basis. ([b]I’ll also point out, that while we know how Aroden died, the only thing that is actually canon is that he died and there were repercussions. Remember, canon isn’t canon until it’s in print.[b/] Oh, I also really like seeing people’s ideas about the reasons and backgrounds of the setting’s many mysteries. I’d be a liar if I said that none of you have ever shifted my own ideas and thoughts about certain elements over all these years.)
What the mantis said!
Wait, he's not a mantis anymore. Nevermind. I refuse to stand by what a flumph said.
Rune, you said what I wanted to say.
So umm, instead I think it would make it more fascinating if the "you can't known the truth" aspect of it from in universe perspective was played up. As it is now, it feels like the reason why we can't know anything about it IS because of meta reasons related to "we want a mystery that can't be figured out" which just kills curiosity. I think playing up flavor of it being beyond comprehension and such would make it more fascinating mystery from character perspective. If that makes sense?
Umm, moving onto option 2) which is actually my favourite one: give GMs tips/suggestions/hooks on how to use Aroden mystery in their campaigns. Like I haven't read Eberron books much, but I did see one book that had non setting specified material that suggested use for each setting with one entry being "Hey maybe you could use this as reason for Day of Mourning in your campaign!". Eclipse Phase has lists of suggestions of what TITANs or the other major conspiracies are up to. Or how Gods of Fall setting from Cypher System does with several ancient things.
What you said.
Oh, and to whatever Paizo staff -- please let GMs know that the mystery will never be solved. If it's in the Inner Sea World Book (the Guide for GMs) now, I missed it.
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What I mean to say is: As an historic event, it's fine. As an attention-grabbing mystery it falls flat.
My understanding is that Paizo intended it to be seen more as an historic event (albeit a very significant one), not an attention-grabbing mystery.
Certainly when Golarion came out, they were clear that they had no intention of ever revealing what had happened and that from their perspective the interesting bit (and the stories they were going to be telling) focussed on the consequences now that the world has changed - Cheliax arising, the worldwound, etcetera.
I guess it's human nature that being told "this is a secret" makes it much more intriguing than all the other things we don't know, which are just "this is something we haven't fleshed out yet". However, that doesn't mean it was intended to be the focus of the campaign setting - merely a very significant event which shaped the current state of affairs.
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And lastly - not a biggie, but anyway - it actually comes of a bit smug and excluding. "We know, we select few here on the inside, and you plebs on the outside's never gonna". And that's not really the best way to treat people that pay your cheetos.Huh. I always took Paizo's position as "this historical event has a coherent cause and you don't need to worry that something we publish in the future will accidentally make it nonsensical".
I don't assume that the answer as to "why/how did Aroden die" is actually interesting. The answer isn't meant to be interesting. The event was catalytic.
So I don't get smug. I get competent.
Well, that's not my main issue. It just feels a little childish with the "we know but we're not gonna tell you, nah-na". I would have preferred an "up-in-the-air-mystery-for-everyone-including-us"-approach instead of this "exclusive club"-version, but as I said, it's no biggie.
I have of course no clue if the reveal to this mystery is interesting or not, and apparently never will. But it COULD be really cool. It's the death of a god! The god of the dominant race, none the less. And the other divine deaths we know of in Golarion were both cool and important (earthfall). So my main gripe is that of the lost opportunity to tell a potentially great story.
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I think you're ascribing a particular childish motivation but it's not in their posts (the recent ones nor the more numerous ones back when the Golarion was first introduced and posts about Aroden were much more common). I don't think you can take: "We know, we select few here on the inside, and you plebs on the outside's never gonna" as representative of any of Paizo's posts on the subject. There's a heavy amount of interpretation to get the judgemental/superior tone in there.
It's much more likely the motivation is not a smug superiority but just a difference in judgement as to what goes into creating a good campaign setting. (That's after all why they said they did it).
I wish they hadn't made that choice but there's no reason to think that they suddenly stopped being nice people for a while just because Erik wanted to have a moment feeling like an "insider". He's an insider 24 hours a day. I suspect the novelty wore off years ago.
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{. . .}
So umm option 1), first and sort of "obvious" way would be to give enough hints about it to be able to form educated theories/guesses about it without being able to confirm them or be sure what is the truth. But since point of Aroden mystery is that we can't know the answer nor we won't get hints about it that would allow us to figure out the answer, I think that wouldn't be fitting way to do that.So umm, instead I think it would make it more fascinating if the "you can't known the truth" aspect of it from in universe perspective was played up. {. . .}
Umm, moving onto option 2) which is actually my favourite one: give GMs tips/suggestions/hooks on how to use Aroden mystery in their campaigns. Like I haven't read Eberron books much, but I did see one book that had non setting specified material that suggested use for each setting with one entry being "Hey maybe you could use this as reason for Day of Mourning in your campaign!". Eclipse Phase has lists of suggestions of what TITANs or the other major conspiracies are up to. Or how Gods of Fall setting from Cypher System does with several ancient things.
Lots of those examples provide multiple contradiction suggestions of what could be up with mysteries, but it honestly doesn't need to be suggestions for the "truth" and could just be tips on how to use it in campaign even if Aroden mystery isn't central part of it. That would definitely make mystery more appealing to use by gms I think?
{. . .}
Option 1.5 (similar to what I have been suggesting for the Gap in Starfinder): In world, people have conducted investigations of Aroden's death, and come up with substantially concrete evidence to support their hypotheses (or induce them to form hypotheses) . . . and various people's hypotheses and evidence contradict each other.
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I think you're ascribing a particular childish motivation but it's not in their posts (the recent ones nor the more numerous ones back when the Golarion was first introduced and posts about Aroden were much more common). I don't think you can take: "We know, we select few here on the inside, and you plebs on the outside's never gonna" as representative of any of Paizo's posts on the subject. There's a heavy amount of interpretation to get the judgemental/superior tone in there.
It's much more likely the motivation is not a smug superiority but just a difference in judgement as to what goes into creating a good campaign setting. (That's after all why they said they did it).
I wish they hadn't made that choice but there's no reason to think that they suddenly stopped being nice people for a while just because Erik wanted to have a moment feeling like an "insider". He's an insider 24 hours a day. I suspect the novelty wore off years ago.
You're probably right and I was probably wrong. Then again, I tried to downplay this "mistake of theirs" in my OP as something that was not very important in my view, but that it just "came of a bit that way". Unfortunately now several posters, including you, have hung on to this admitted unimportant point from my initial three, which makes me wish I had left it out as it is apparently obscuring what I really wanted to say. But I can hope that people maybe won't comment if they agree with something, and instead feel the need to do so mostly when they find something to pick on.
Here are my points again BTW, to get the important context... and yes, I'm quoting myself :)
I think they have made three mistakes here.
First, and most important - an unexplained mystery will grow stale after a while. What you should do then is to reveal the truth in some big, cool way, and then introduce new, fresh, mysteries. Preferably evolve the old ones with an age-old trick - the truth behind the mystery creates new questions. The truth makes the mystery metastasize. This hasn't really happened. It's the same old.
Second, if you intend to never give your audience the truth, you shouldn't say so. A mystery is a treasure hunt. The possibility of finding the solution one day is part of the attraction. But this is something Paizo seems to have missed completely. And that's a real big buzzkill, in my book. It doesn't matter that it's hard, and that the truth is buried deep, but knowing you'll never find the answer - what's the fun then?
And lastly - not a biggie, but anyway - it actually comes of a bit smug and excluding. "We know, we select few here on the inside, and you plebs on the outside's never gonna". And that's not really the best way to treat people that pay your cheetos.
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I realise it's not your main point, but that's no reason to not query it if I have a response, is it?
I pretty much agree with your first two points although I wouldn't characterise the choice to go a different direction as "mistakes" - there's a definite plus side to the path they've taken. I can see that, even if it doesn't suit my personal preferences and I wish they'd done a "what happened to Aroden?" AP.
The reason I quoted your aside was because the tone of the messageboards is important. One can critique an idea without ascribing negative motivation to those who hold a different view. I think it's worth commenting when posts wander into such territory, since otherwise it becomes acceptable.
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I realise it's not your main point, but that's no reason to query it, is it?
No, hence my wish that I had left it out.
I pretty much agree with your first two points although I wouldn't characterise the choice to go a different direction as "mistakes" - there's a definite plus side to the path they've taken. I can see that, even if it doesn't suit my personal preferences and I wish they'd done a "what happened to Aroden?" AP.
I can see the plus side as well, although I think that plus with time now has rusted down into a minus. What worked then does not work as well any longer. It's time to use this old backdrop for something else than just hanging there, way in the back, collecting dust, and get some new exciting mysteries in - especially with Starfinder on the horizon. But if James Jacobs speaks for Paizo in this, and his job title says he does, that seem like it won't happen. A shame, in my opinion.
The reason I quoted your aside was because the tone of the messageboards is important. One can critique an idea without ascribing negative motivation to those who hold a different view. I think it's worth commenting when posts wander into such territory, since otherwise it becomes acceptable.
I generally agree with you there, even though I think too much bowing and scraping and polite padding makes a message a mush. But I sometimes fall into the trap of turning the screw a few turns too many, for effect and visibility. (Which unfortunately often works, even though it is wrong.) Thanks, I'll be mindful.
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You're not the only editaholic... :o
To address the original question, I like a setting that feeds and hooks into itself. There is a lot of that in a universe like Star Trek, lots of great retcons and callbacks to other episodes and films over the years that make the world of Star Trek have depth.
If Aroden's death had any consequence at all, my headcanon says he died (and probably other deities on other worlds) to contribute to some future event universewide that would matter to everyone and affect everyone. A divine sacrifice across space and time to prevent a future catastrophe from creating a situation much, much worse than retrograde amnesia, mystical data wipes everywhere in known space, and the disappearance of an entire planet and its moon. The signs point to foreknowledge of an attempted escape by Rovagug with a chance of success too high to ignore or circumvent using less drastic means.
The Gap, for its part, occurred because it would have been decisively harmful (by divine reckoning) to the countermeasures of the time or in future to let those memories live on, anywhere, and allowed to play out in the long term. Cosmic censorship was enforced to cover up a cosmic act, or knowledge of it, whose truth was probably too much to near for anyone who was alive at the time and had the intelligence to understand the implications.
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...even though I think too much bowing and scraping and polite padding makes a message a mush. But I sometimes fall into the trap of turning the screw a few turns too many for effect and visibility. (Which unfortunately often works, even though it is wrong.)
FWIW, I agree with your approach with objective fields of study. When it comes to artistic endeavours though, I think its better to err on the side of over polite rather than under.
Partly out of respect for the artists, since creative effort is often undervalued - I can imagine pouring blood, sweat and tears into a book and feeling somewhat deflated as the audience tears into minor plot contradictions or other such inconsistencies rather than focussing on the positives.
More importantly though, I think it's worth bearing in mind that we all judge artistic endeavours by different standards. What I see as an "error" may be due to the artist making no effort to cater to something I think is important whilst simultaneously addressing some aesthetic issue I've never even considered. It's difficult to always put oneself in the other's shoes, but it's at least worth remembering that they potentially have a very different view as to what is trying to be achieved.
My opinion: I really don't care either way. If I knew I might consider thanking whoever it was for getting rid of the jerk, but it's a minor issue at most. He's dead, I didn't care for him from the start, nothing has happened to change that, and there are hundreds of millions of things I'd prefer to get information on regarding Golarion. For example: Basically everything regarding Shelyn's mother.
The closest thing connecting to Aroden's death that I do care about: Whether humanity will finally realize that their age of dominance is at an end and that they really, really need to work with others or they'll become about as obsolete as the dwarves and elves.
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The Aroden mystery is the least fun part of the entire setting for me. To the point that I actively try to forget that the mystery and even Aroden are even a thing to avoid rage quitting Golarion, which I actually did for a few years.
Not that there is anything wrong with Aroden, he is the reason I first became interested in Golarion as a setting. I just somehow managed to not learn about the death of Aroden until after learning a LOT about the setting. The decision to make the coolest diety in modern fantasy rpgs and then kill him off before anybody gets to play with him in their setting is just all around bad judgement. Keeping the details of his death a secret because 'woo mystery' is just rubbing salt in the wound.
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Unfortunately now several posters, including you, have hung on to this admitted unimportant point from my initial three, which makes me wish I had left it out as it is apparently obscuring what I really wanted to say.
I recognize I'm one of those several, but I wanted to take a quick moment to say... I've lurked in this thread for several pages without finding a good way to express what I wanted to express regarding Paizo's motives and purposes behind the Aroden mystery. The portion of your post I replied to was ideal to help me get out my opinion that the mystery isn't (IMHO) important, or necessarily interesting, and that the reason Paizo's said what they've said is to let us know where they will and won't be stomping in the future, story-wise.
So please don't take it that I was nit-picking or taking more seriousness from your statement than you meant... you just acted as the perfect springboard for me to say what I wanted to say, succinctly instead of word-salad like this post. <Grin>
So uh, thank you, and yeah, I know you're not over-serious.
So how long ago did Aroden die? I always assumed it was centuries ago, or even millennia—distant history—but some people are talking like it was just a few generations back. That's really not conveyed well.
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So how long ago did Aroden die? I always assumed it was centuries ago, or even millennia—distant history—but some people are talking like it was just a few generations back. That's really not conveyed well.
About 100 years ago. Don't remember the exact amount, but if you use starting elven age categories, every elf PC was born before he died.