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So uh... This has been bothering me for a while, but since I was writing review on products mentioning Lirgen and Eye of Abendego, I started to really think about it and I really wanted to ask this and get general picture on it?
So yeah, what do people generally think of Aroden mystery? I mean, do you care about the mystery's existence? Do you want to get answers on it?
I mean, personally I'm pretty "Eh, it exists" about it and not really interested in hearing about it or sure why we should care. Its not just because we won't ever learn the answer, mostly its because "So what?" I mean, what do we learn if we know how Aroden died based on hints given by setting books? We learn how he died. Thats it. "So thats what happened." We already know what happened due to him dying, so mystery is just about figuring out rest of it.
Most interesting thing about Aroden mystery I've seen are fan theories about it .-. Like the theory that Aroden was killed by entity that corrupted Zon-Kuthon. That theory gives nice narrative on why mystery is important. Though its based on "let's observe similar events with other deities" since Aroden mystery itself doesn't have any clues about it from what I've noticed.
Another thing I have a problem with it is that it makes Eye of Abendego related stuff bit uninteresting for me since we can't learn why Eye of Abendego appeared after Aroden's death without we learning hints about Aroden's death so we won't ever learn if Eye of Abendego is something that can be "fixed". Same way, we won't ever have modules or aps where the question that can't be answered is important to storywise since that would be giving hints about it. And only faction really concerned with Aroden(Harbingers of Fate) were dealt with in Pathfinder Society scenarios so that won't be a thing anymore.
And like I said, I don't think the reason I'm uninterested in Aroden's death is because we know we won't ever learn the answers, there are plenty of unanswered mysteries I love. Like, for example, I find what is deal with TITANs in Eclipse Phase interesting. I mean, there isn't any real answer to it, unlike to Aroden, since its "GM decides" type of thing, but potential reasons given up by book are all sort of things that are all "Holy crap" level and the answer would definitely have impact in setting.
So uh, too long to read version: I find mysteries interesting if I feel like the learning the answer would be important and satisfying.
So uh, sorry about rambling there for while, but yeah, what do you guys think about mystery yourself? Am I just crazy since I don't really find it a big deal?
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Yeah, I have to agree it's pretty boring now. After all, aren't GMs advised against doing stuff like this? Nobody likes a puzzle that has no answer.
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James has said in the past he thinks people would stop caring if they ever revealed the truth of it, but that assumes people are enjoying the mystery rather than find it frustrating as you are.
For the record I'd like to find out what happened to Zon kuthon in the dark since it has been confirmed the outer gods had no hand in it.
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Yeah, I have to agree it's pretty boring now. After all, aren't GMs advised against doing stuff like this? Nobody likes a puzzle that has no answer.
eh. I kinda like it.
It's like the Mournland in Eberron. No answers there either.
But it's a fun bit of the setting. Something that's not explicitly spelled out. And there's more than just this one thing in Golarion in any event.
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The Aroden thing hasn't been a concern with any of my characters, generally for the basic reason that they have more recent stuff to deal with, whether they are PFS characters, fighting demon lords in Wrath of the Righteous, or rebelling in Kintargo. Aroden's dissapearnce is old news, his clerics are all either converted to Iomedae, and/or died of old age.
There's no reason for most of them to be worrying about it, especially those who aren't pure human.
The Aroden thing is like anything else in the setting, something to make use of, or let lie in the background according to what serves the campaign.
I think it's pretty much clear that it's pointless to wait for an "official" answer, but I don't have a problem with it. It's pretty much left to GM's who may wish to build a campaign about the answer to that question... or not.
I really like it! It's fun to play around with it- I've got scenarios where select groups of Arodenites start getting spells granted after dreaming of Aroden's holy symbol giving them some very odd instructions. It's up to the PCs to figure out who or what is actually behind it all.
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Aroden's dissapearnce is old news, his clerics are all either converted to Iomedae, and/or died of old age.
Spoiler:Stuff on Arodan having destain for non pure humans.
I'm curious about this. Taldor, Echoes of Glory details the last remaining Arodanite Bishop, who is an elderly half elf. Milani, also a half elf, began her assention as a Saint in Aroden's church.
Could you clarify?
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Yup, move along, nothing to see here.
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Yeah, I have to agree it's pretty boring now. After all, aren't GMs advised against doing stuff like this? Nobody likes a puzzle that has no answer.eh. I kinda like it.
It's like the Mournland in Eberron. No answers there either.
But it's a fun bit of the setting. Something that's not explicitly spelled out. And there's more than just this one thing in Golarion in any event.
The Mournland thing was current history in Eberron and was mentioned in about every adventure, novel, and supplement. Half the time I forget about Aroden being important to Golarion. But I think that has been my problem with the Golarion setting. Eberron felt cohesive, Golarion doesn't. It feels like what it is, a big ol' mixing bowl of the creators home campaigns that they just kinda threw together.
Aroden's dissapearnce is old news, his clerics are all either converted to Iomedae, and/or died of old age.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm curious about this. Taldor, Echoes of Glory details the last remaining Arodanite Bishop, who is an elderly half elf. Milani, also a half elf, began her assention as a Saint in Aroden's church.
Could you clarify?
If you look at Iomedae's writeup it mentions her giving power to a few Arodonite clerics who refused to switch over to her. So he is either receiving power from Iomedae or is essentially a cleric without powers. And it's Taldor... the empire that's essentially the trope namer for continuing things long past their having meaning or purpose.
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The Mournland thing was current history in Eberron and was mentioned in about every adventure, novel, and supplement. Half the time I forget about Aroden being important to Golarion. But I think that has been my problem with the Golarion setting. Eberron felt cohesive, Golarion doesn't. It feels like what it is, a big ol' mixing bowl of the creators home campaigns that they just kinda threw together.Yeah, I have to agree it's pretty boring now. After all, aren't GMs advised against doing stuff like this? Nobody likes a puzzle that has no answer.eh. I kinda like it.
It's like the Mournland in Eberron. No answers there either.
But it's a fun bit of the setting. Something that's not explicitly spelled out. And there's more than just this one thing in Golarion in any event.
The thing about the Mournland is that you can't afford to ignore it. It's a chunk taken literally out of the center of Khorvaire, it severs the transcontinental railway, and there are known menaces inside that are hostile to the powers at be. The folks living in Khorvaire are long past wondering how it got there, they're more presently concerned about what to do about what's inside it.
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A mystery without an answer isn't a mystery. It's just a thing that happened.
Things are only interesting by the context that surrounds them. Somebody dying is not in and of itself interesting. If that person is a god, it makes no difference.
Referring to it as a mystery is a mistake and has been since JJ decided the answer (if he even bothered to make one) would never be revealed.
The reference to Amelia Earhart isn't really apt because it does have elements of a mystery. Clues as to the answer, and historical personal significance to many people of the time.
This is a fictional event (no direct personal significance to the reader) that happened to a character in the backstory of the setting (so no built up relationship over time like recurring novel characters or something that the reader might connect to), has no real clues (cryptic wink and nod "But the clues are there nudge nudge" phrases from JJ don't count), and has zero impact on the setting going forward.
Why SHOULD anyone care?
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it's a conspiracy man... James Jacobs covered up Starfall man....Drunk Golarion ancient alien theorist
well anyway Mr. Jacobs did say as far as golarion is concerned he is dead.
thus something did happen. Mr. \Jacobs also said that Paizo deliberately left that out of it.
Ok, so now in my Golarian, the starstone is an alien spaceship. The failed aspirants are now the failed experiments. They weren't strong - healthy - sane enough to handle the conversion.
You see, the aliens were running from something bad(what it is, is currently unknown from most of golarion's beings). Aroden was also in on the conspiracy, and he was killed by the "bad thing" which broke prophecy.
Now the aliens are finding the best beings in Golarian, you see there's a battle coming, and they need an army........
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...wut?
Anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown.
We're talking about something literary here. Written primarily to entertain.
Think of the elements of a mystery novel, or police procedural show, or anything else involving a mystery. How do those intrigue you, arouse curiosity as to the outcome, engage you in the proceedings?
None of the elements are present here. There is no effort made to delve into the life of the victim, see what recent events may have led up to their death. No seeding of clues or hints as to the means or motive of the death, much less how and when the opportunity arose to commit it. There is nobody attempting to SOLVE the mystery, so you are not engaged vicariously and thus invested in its solution. The setting makes every attempt to kill the INTRIGUE (what are the implications? Hidden motivations behind the death? All swept aside, because it happened many, many years ago) that is the heart of a mystery, because the writer does not want it answered.
It is a thing that happened. As full of mystery and intrigue as someone saying "I went to the store and bought a loaf of bread yesterday". Yes, there are unanswered questions (What kind of bread? How much did it cost? Which store? What did you do with the bread? Did it taste good? Can I have some?), but nobody actually cares what the answer to those questions are, because they have no (or little, they might be somewhat peckish) impact on their life and no interesting factors that motivate someone to learn what happened and be interested in the outcome.
Even mysteries that remain partially unsolved (sometimes the method or motive isn't ascertained by the end) hit the key beats and answer ENOUGH questions that the lack of full closure is tantalizing and leaves the reader wanting more. The moratorium on ANY details about Aroden's demise leaves even this beyond the ability of the "story".
Yes, by the strictest reading of a single definition (of 7) of the word, it is a "mystery". But it is not a Mystery.
It is not "a novel, short story, play, or film [or other media] whose plot involves a crime or other event that remains puzzlingly unsettled until the very end:" because it has no plot, and it has no end. It is a single point on a timeline. Even a paint-by-numbers mystery exists on a 2D plane, but not this.
Hilariously, it is not even "truth that is unknowable except by divine revelation" because the very nature of this supposed "mystery" makes that divine revelation impossible.
It is dull and uninteresting by design, even if that design wasn't intentional. It falls as completely flat as a mystery novel that gives away the solution at the start of the book. They both have the same effect: You don't care what happens next, because you already know what will happen. In the case of the novel, you already knew the answer from page 1. In this case, you know you won't GET an answer at all from the start.
So, again, why should you care?
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A mystery without an answer isn't a mystery. It's just a thing that happened.
Things are only interesting by the context that surrounds them. Somebody dying is not in and of itself interesting. If that person is a god, it makes no difference.
Referring to it as a mystery is a mistake and has been since JJ decided the answer (if he even bothered to make one) would never be revealed.
The reference to Amelia Earhart isn't really apt because it does have elements of a mystery. Clues as to the answer, and historical personal significance to many people of the time.
This is a fictional event (no direct personal significance to the reader) that happened to a character in the backstory of the setting (so no built up relationship over time like recurring novel characters or something that the reader might connect to), has no real clues (cryptic wink and nod "But the clues are there nudge nudge" phrases from JJ don't count), and has zero impact on the setting going forward.
Why SHOULD anyone care?
No one said have to. Different people and characters have different buttons that get pushed by different things. The Aroden thing obviously pushes buttons on other people that aren't yours. it's really pretentious to assume that just because you don't care about something, no one else should.
The Aroden mystery is a story element that's free for a home GM to make into a story, or a campaign. You can even have a campaign centered around a MacGuffin that is believed to be a solution for a mystery that some would kill for. It doesn't even matter if that's correct, MacGuffins are always a good story element... especially for urban based investigative campaigns.
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...wut?
Anything that is kept secret or remains unexplained or unknown.**** wall of text ****
So, again, why should you care?
The fun part is the answer can be anything you want it to be.
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He's chilling in the Alps. With JFK, Marilyn Monroe, and Elvis.
He's chilling in the Alps. With JFK, Marilyn Monroe, and Elvis.
The alps are to cold. They are on an uncharted island in the pacific.
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So, in other words, neither of you care about the mystery either. You're taking the plot point and MAKING it interesting and mysterious.That's kind of the point of published RPG settings. They toss out elements of the setting and we the GMs and players decide what we build our campaigns around. Honestly, you might as well be railing against any other single element in any published campaign setting like the SlaveLords or the migration of Suel tribes in Greyhawk, the secrets of the Anauroch Desert or the Zhentarim in the Forgotten Realms, or even the weird cave on Dagobah in a Star Wars game - either you include it as an element of focus in a campaign... or you don't.
Ah, but here's the key difference: Those are just plot points, dropped and left be. Sort of like unexplored sections of the map in Golarion's setting, or any other.
This is something the writer decided to play up as a mystery...and now gets frustrated when people ask him for even the tiniest details about what the mystery supposedly IS. Seriously, just look at the types of replies JJ gives whenever he gets asked. They range from flippant to very nearly hostile.
I'm certainly curious to see how this whole Aroden thing plays out. I for one am hoping that he's still kicking out there getting ready to stage one helluva comeback tour. But, I honestly don't care at this point as long as there is some kind of story to be told that has closure and makes sense.
I'm of the mind that gods can't truly die, they just change state like water. He will coalesce again.
I'm certainly curious to see how this whole Aroden thing plays out. I for one am hoping that he's still kicking out there getting ready to stage one helluva comeback tour. But, I honestly don't care at this point as long as there is some kind of story to be told that has closure and makes sense.
I'm of the mind that gods can't truly die, they just change state like water. He will coalesce again.
Aroden isn't the only god on the dead list. There are several others and none of them have come back either.
The answer is ... it's not going to play out on an official basis. Unless JJ changes his mind.. and I expect the sun to go out first.
I sense a disturbance in the thread...
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Well, I hope we at least find out before the heat death of the universe.
Creative Director
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The way the whole "Aroden thing" plays out is covered in pretty much EVERY product we publish for Golarion. The whole campaign setting is set in the time it's set to explore the ripple effects of a significant event like the death of a deity like Aroden. The fact that no one knows how it happened and the fact that it happened at all made the Inner Sea region of Golarion what it is today, and made all the locations and people and nations behave the way they do, and thus sets up every single adventure and resource book and novel and so on that's set in the region.
I do understand that some folks are frustrated that we haven't revealed how Aroden died and that we have no plans to ever do so, but the mystery is such a fundamental part of the setting it's not something that would help in revealing it.
In the meantime, PLEASE be respectful of each other and don't devolve into name calling or insults. That's pretty much the exact wrong way to encourage participation in the thread, be it with other fans of Golarion, but ESPECIALLY with Paizo staff members.
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I made the mystery part of my first Pathfinder campaign, integrated right into character backstories, partially solved in the campaign itself, and then continued with the party using mythic and divine power to partially resurrect him (and not even really on purpose) as a human. I had many disparate elements tied together with a witch who thought she was seeing the future through an oracle child's drawings, Pharasma being sort of ticked off about the whole Aroden dying unexpectedly thing, certain dark forces involved in it all, and a monk seeking to reach godhood through an unorthodox method. I'm happy with how that all turned out.
I'd love to see the official explanation in print though. I don't think it would take anything away from my campaign or others. But at this point, I also won't be upset if it doesn't get revealed.
My first campaign occurred at a time when Golarian was fresh (they had 4 APs I think) and Aroden was the most interesting part to my players. Now that I own a bajillion dollars of Paizo books, I have many more interesting things to play and discover. And with Starfinder looming on the horizon as well, Aroden just isn't on my mind much any more. And I don't mean that in a negative way toward him or his creators! Golarion is just a big cool place now with a ton to do and explore.
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Yeaah, I made this thread to get idea of general ''opinion'' on subject, not to argue about it :/ This is something that has been bothering me for long time, but I've been previously afraid of asking about it since I've kinda felt worried it would cause arguments or that I just have weird opinions again and everyone would be annoyed with me.
Like I said, I don't even want to hear the answer to mystery, I'm just not personally concerned with it or see it that big deal. Its hard to explain my feelings, but its less of being frustrated by it and more "I'm wondering if I'm weird for not being interested in biggest most important mystery of series". I mean, sure background wise its resulted to tons of bad things happening, but the "why" it happened doesn't feel important to me. Usually when settings have grand mysteries like this, there are hints being dropped about it or such, with foreshadowing it to leading something on later, Aroden mystery is just "Nobody knows". Meanwhile other unanswered mysteries in Golarion have hints dropped about them that makes them more appealing to me as home campaign material. And it doesn't help that it feels more like historical event than something you'd base character's motivation around, to most PCs or APs, it might as well have taken thousand years ago since for most of them Eye of Abendago, Worldwound and Infernal Cheliax has always been a thing and I rarely see players remembering when they play 100+ lifespan race characters that they lived before god of humans died.
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I think the Starfinder announcement and its mystery has reinforced the mediocrity of the Aroden mystery. Aroden is a god who only existed for a tiny flash in the pan of the multiverse timeline and whose influence only really mattered on one planet.
Golarion vanishing and wiping out the memory of everyone across the entire multiverse for a large period of years/centuries is a much, much bigger deal.
A billion years from now The Gap will at least be a footnote in multiverse histories. No one will remember Aroden among thousands (at least) of other gods who have come and gone in the intervening aeons.
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James has said in the past he thinks people would stop caring if they ever revealed the truth of it, but that assumes people are enjoying the mystery rather than find it frustrating as you are.
For the record I'd like to find out what happened to Zon kuthon in the dark since it has been confirmed the outer gods had no hand in it.
Well, in my case, at least, it's exactly the opposite.
If I know I'm never getting a direct answer... Meh. Why should I care? The point of theorizing is that one day you'll be able to put your theory against the facts and see if you are right or not.
If George R. R. Martin said he would never, absolutely not ever reveal who Jon's parents are... Do you think people would be as crazy about it as they are? I know I probably wouldn't.
So...
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I think the death of Aroden is a mystery and should remain mysterious.
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The reason I don't like it, is because there is supposed to be an answer, that answer is there to help make the setting cohesive, and I feel trapped as a GM if I ever want to do anything with it.
What if I go with an idea that is later invalidated in-canon because that's not how it worked?
The obvious answer is, "It's your game, do what you want." but the thing is, I buy Golarion stuff to play in published Golarion, because I like it. I don't purchase it so I can ignore something that's supposed to be a major facet of the campaign setting.
Beyond that, our setting is already diverging from canon, and increasingly so the more retcons canon goes through... which means (very slowly) ever-more-published material becomes little more than not-relevant-to-our-games, which is frustrating when I purchase stuff that tells me, "No, see, you were totally wrong to run it that way, and it's going to be like this in all future releases."
So now, if there's a long-term "mystery" I'm left going, "Uh... huh. I guess I'll just have to forever ignore that part of the campaign setting." which is a shame, as the reason I go for Golarion products is to explore the Golarion setting.
Obviously, not everyone feels that way, and that's fine - my personal tastes and preferences shouldn't dictate others' experiences - but at the same time, since the question is asking how we feel about it, that's my answer: I thought it was cool for a quite while, but - in my mind - ten years is really more than long enough to aim for closure, so I can finally start playing with toys, as a GM and player, related to that thing.
It's Paizo's stuff and they can print what they like, and that people enjoy it as-is certainly is an awesome thing, but it's painful for me as a customer to have previous game experiences either emotionally/mentally walled off like that in order to attempt to maintain fidelity to the setting as a whole.
The reason I don't like it, is because there is supposed to be an answer, that answer is there to help make the setting cohesive, and I feel trapped as a GM if I ever want to do anything with it.
I don't really feel that the setting loses cohesion just because you have one mystery with no official answer. Especially with an event that is ancient history.
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I can relate Tactics. In a different game system I play, when discussing what to do when a retcon changed something, they offered their advice: "poof, it's always been that way".
I can honestly say that I never had less respect for a piece of professional, published game advice.