Creative Director
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So how long ago did Aroden die? I always assumed it was centuries ago, or even millennia—distant history—but some people are talking like it was just a few generations back. That's really not conveyed well.
Very first line of the Inner Sea World Guide says...
"Just over a century ago, the god of humanity died."
Not sure how much more obviously we could cover it than that.
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So how long ago did Aroden die? I always assumed it was centuries ago, or even millennia—distant history—but some people are talking like it was just a few generations back. That's really not conveyed well.
Aroden died in 4606 AR. With the PFS system of matching 4700+ AR dates to 2000+ AD dates, that is effectively 1906. It is now barely possible to have elf PCs who do not remember when Aroden was alive, but it will be a few more years before we can have elf PCs who were born after Aroden's death.
Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :P
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Creative Director
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Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :P
EDIT: Comment (and another reply) deleted. I'm pretty sure my continued participation in this thread is just gonna piss people off, so I'm bowing out of the argument.
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Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :P
Isn't that kind of a problem between you and your GM? He's your conduit to the history of Golarion.
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I personally wouldn't hold it against a GM for not owning a particular splatbook. RPG books ain't cheap after all.Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :PIsn't that kind of a problem between you and your GM? He's your conduit to the history of Golarion.
I wouldn't either, but it's hard to conclude Paizo isn't conveying when Aroden died well when you're not using the setting sources either as a player or as a GM. How would you know whether they are doing so or not if you don't use the sources?
The PDF for The Inner Sea World Guide is only 9.99, certainly a modest price to learn more about Golarion. :-)
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Hey KC! Google has a thing!
LMGTFY
First link.
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Now if we want to be objective... the world of Pathfinder is a powder keg of some impossible proportions, where, if we assume all modules and APs are canon, each 5-6 months some thing tries to conquer/destroy/pillage the the world, or at least a part of it. And if it wasn't for specific groups of social awkward murderhobos, the world would have been destroyed 5 times over.
I is my choice to believe - Aroden was killed by mythic level murderhobos for his loot.
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Now if we want to be objective... the world of Pathfinder is a powder keg of some impossible proportions, where, if we assume all modules and APs are canon, each 5-6 months some thing tries to conquer/destroy/pillage the the world, or at least a part of it. And if it wasn't for specific groups of social awkward murderhobos, the world would have been destroyed 5 times over.
I is my choice to believe - Aroden was killed by mythic level murderhobos for his loot.
it gives something for all adventuring parties to aspire to.
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Now if we want to be objective... the world of Pathfinder is a powder keg of some impossible proportions, where, if we assume all modules and APs are canon, each 5-6 months some thing tries to conquer/destroy/pillage the the world, or at least a part of it. And if it wasn't for specific groups of social awkward murderhobos, the world would have been destroyed 5 times over.
I is my choice to believe - Aroden was killed by mythic level murderhobos for his loot.
It's also known that such murderhobos are the only beings in the whole multiverse who can operate completely outside the purview of "Prophecy", "Coherent World Building" and "Good Old Common Sense", so it's completely believable. Only they could kill the Man of Prophecy.
Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :PIsn't that kind of a problem between you and your GM? He's your conduit to the history of Golarion.
Sure, but most GMs in turn access the setting through running APs, and as we've discussed, the APs don't really emphasize Aroden much.
Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :PWow, dude. Wow.
Okay, clearly my post has aroused some anger, so I apologize if I phrased anything rudely. I'm just repeating what others have pointed out already, though, and nobody was especially offended then.
Hey KC! Google has a thing!
No need to be passive-aggressive. Again, this isn't about "Is the information available?" It's about "Is the information emphasized?"
I think one of the problems with Aroden as a "pivotal" figure is that Golarion's key motif—as Eberron's is "magitek post-WWI social commentary" and Ravenloft's is "gothic horror" and Forgotten Realms's is, I don't know, "elves!"—has become "kitchen sink". I no longer know where the real core story elements of Golarion fit in. Is Golarion a decadent, decaying world where prophecy is dead and old empires have turned to diabolism? Is that "core" Golarion, when you strip all the spaceships and Ustalavs and romanticized imperialism away? How does the Pathfinder Society fit into that?
Basically, I think there's so much going on that Aroden tends to be forgotten. I actually think the key misstep was in saying, "There are almost no churches to Aroden anymore." That minimized his presence unnecessarily. It made it easy to forget about him. Paizo should have left those churches around, sad collections of clerics and mystics who pray to Iomedae only technically—or maybe pray to no one at all, and just get no spells.
Paizo should really play up the "lost god" more if they want people to care about the mystery. Do an AP about broken prophecies! Do an adventure about an Aroden imposter! And so on.
Sorry if my meaning was unclear. This is what I was underlining, since it felt like James Jacobs was forgetting this point (or, at the least, hadn't addressed it while making a statement about how clear he felt the information was).
I'm a little bit annoyed, because I again feel like people are being way overly defensive and reading my posts with overly hostile assumptions, but my apology is sincere. I'm just frustrated with how we seem incapable of trusting each other right now. Most of you guys are my friends, and I expected some sort of general civility, especially after we saw how things went just a page ago. But I say one more thing critical about the setting and suddenly we're right back to where we were before.
I am feeling deeply alienated by this thread. Upon review, I've decided to back out and hide it from my sensitive sight. Please direct all angry fanmail to my PM box. I don't frikking know what it is about this thread that had caused it to spiral downhill—it's not like it's the first time we've argued setting lore—but the atmosphere is really unwelcoming right now.
Not everyone buys the Inner Sea World Guide, JJ. I know it's the campaign setting book, but I'd say most of us experience the setting through playing in it. :PIsn't that kind of a problem between you and your GM? He's your conduit to the history of Golarion.Sure, but most GMs in turn access the setting through running APs, and as we've discussed, the APs don't really emphasize Aroden much.
Well his death was 100 years previous and not every AP is based in an area where the death is an ongoing sore spot. However, the legacy of his death is pretty big in the APs because several have now been set in areas directly affected such as Cheliax with the descent into civil war and rise of House Thrune and the way that ripples through settings like Korvosa and other parts of Varisia. Then there's also the Eye of Abendigo and, though we've learned it wasn't directly caused by his death the timing has to be highly significant, the opening of the Worldwound. I can think of at least 6 APs where the background has been affected by his death, though not always directly. That's nothing to sneeze at.
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I haven't read any of the 'DM specific' books, but I've tried to catch the player setting ones... so there may be info that I missed.
Regardless, I wish that either there was a much stronger focus on his death... OR that it happened much much longer ago. A hundred years in worlds like this is just too soon. I have a dhampir who's 120 right now who remembers quite clearly that day and how it HAD to have had a major impact on his life and backstory. Elves are the same... there are actually a few races that have that 100+ starting age.
I have personally found very little info to tell me about what life was like when he was around, what his church was like etc. The Gods books don't talk much about the dead one... I heard there was writeup in an AP somewhere eventually, but again... Player here. I haven't read the APs...
For 99% of the time... I don't think the mystery really matters to 99% of the people of the world. They've moved on... their descendants have moved on. However, there are still the long lived races that it SHOULD affect a bit more. I.e. my inquisitor Dhampir (who I couldn't find a good deity for) basically doesn't trust gods anymore since they can die and throw the world in ruin. He's very self sufficient that way and follows an ideal. There's a lot of ways that a dead god COULD influence characters and backstories... but I really haven't seen it much. Death of Aroden may as well be 'Earthfall' for as much as it affects our games.
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I think one of the problems with Aroden as a "pivotal" figure is that Golarion's key motif—as Eberron's is "magitek post-WWI social commentary" and Ravenloft's is "gothic horror" and Forgotten Realms's is, I don't know, "elves!"—has become "kitchen sink". I no longer know where the real core story elements of Golarion fit in. Is Golarion a decadent, decaying world where prophecy is dead and old empires have turned to diabolism? Is that "core" Golarion, when you strip all the spaceships and Ustalavs and romanticized imperialism away? How does the Pathfinder Society fit into that?
I suppose you're not going to see this if you've hidden this thread, but I think you actually hit the nail straight into my head here, or however the proverb goes.
I think what I'm actually is looking for is Golarion's elevator pitch. "A world in decay, trying to deal with the death of the god of humanity". That's what I would have used when I started GMing Paizo's wonderful APs in this world. But that doesn't seem to be true, since the death of that god has become such a distant 'so what' and kind of left behind. If Eberron's elevator pitch is "magitek post-WWI social commentary", which I agree with, then it would be strange if that didn't colour at least most products released in that setting. BTW, I think Forgotten Realms lacks a clear and utilized theme as well, which might be a reason I don't really care for that setting (or maybe its theme is "Elminster and Drizzt are the kewlest")
Cohesion, a clear leitmotif, a common thread. And there is one! It's just that it isn't used much. As quoted, the first line of the Inner Sea World Guide says "Just over a century ago, the god of humanity died." Isn't this the leitmotif of Golarion 4717? The elevator pitch? If not, what is it?
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I think it's a kitchen sink setting, by design and I think that would be the best synopsis. They wanted to create a broad place where they could explore lots of different stories and themes.
In general, their APs are less world shattering than the various big events of the FR (for example). They are significant events the PCs need to respond to but they are predominantly local. In my view they are almost defined by their thematic differences, rather than under some overarching central theme.
I think Aroden's death was intended as a pivotal, historical event but not as the defining feature of the setting. This seems reinforced to me by James's comment above that they wanted to tell stories other than those based around Aroden's disappearance.
However, the legacy of his death is pretty big in the APs because several have now been set in areas directly affected such as Cheliax with the descent into civil war and rise of House Thrune and the way that ripples through settings like Korvosa and other parts of Varisia. Then there's also the Eye of Abendigo and, though we've learned it wasn't directly caused by his death the timing has to be highly significant, the opening of the Worldwound. I can think of at least 6 APs where the background has been affected by his death, though not always directly. That's nothing to sneeze at.
I would disagree. I don't have all APs though, but those you mention set in Cheliax I have read (and am GMing one), and in both Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance his presence is very small. Yes, there was an important civil war that lead up to these APs, but that could have been caused by anything really. There's no fallout or adventure effects, that I have seen, from the fact that the catalyst was the death of the god of the nation.
So, I can only speak for myself, but I would like to see more than an old statue of a moustached man with a symbol of a winged eye standing in a dungeon. I would like to see a product that explores more directly the mystery and the death of Aroden, its ramifications now and where they're leading, and hopefully see that strengthen this theme of Golarion. If it is a theme.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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Exploring Absolom, the Starstone cathedral, tracing Aroden's steps as a mortal, hunting for old clerics holding clues, entering decrepit temples of the fallen god... the death of Aroden could become a really cool part of the setting instead of just a backdrop, and I think it would absolutely be worth telling stories about.
LOL, you just described my Kings of Absalom campaign. The first installment alone covers literally everything in your list.
Maybe we should just publish _that_. :/
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Exploring Absolom, the Starstone cathedral, tracing Aroden's steps as a mortal, hunting for old clerics holding clues, entering decrepit temples of the fallen god... the death of Aroden could become a really cool part of the setting instead of just a backdrop, and I think it would absolutely be worth telling stories about.
LOL, you just described my Kings of Absalom campaign. The first installment alone covers literally everything in your list.
Maybe we should just publish _that_. :/
An AP about him would reignite interest in The Last Azlanti.
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LOL, you just described my Kings of Absalom campaign. The first installment alone covers literally everything in your list.
Maybe we should just publish _that_. :/
YEEEESSS!!! Please do! Please do! Happy happy joy joy!
*dances frantically on the table until he sprains an ankle*|
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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It does seem like a missed opportunity not to use Aroden history for more material, even if what we get has absolutely nothing to do with his death. The whole Pyramid Eye icon certainly screams "Mystery Cult" or "Occult Society" group so I get why people get twisted up about it. However, I would much rather get nothing than get something rushed or botched.
But the thing is with missed opportunities is that they might just come around. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to see more written about his church prior to his death. What influence his church had on arcane spell casters.
I like what we have seen so far and maybe what I'm hoping for is more in the line of a novel, rather than source book.
Have you read the article in Pathfinder #100 about Aroden? For all the interest for or against the mystery of his death expressed in this thread over the last 72 hours, the article itself got nary a peep from the commentariat.
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Exploring Absolom, the Starstone cathedral, tracing Aroden's steps as a mortal, hunting for old clerics holding clues, entering decrepit temples of the fallen god... the death of Aroden could become a really cool part of the setting instead of just a backdrop, and I think it would absolutely be worth telling stories about.
LOL, you just described my Kings of Absalom campaign. The first installment alone covers literally everything in your list.
Maybe we should just publish _that_. :/
In this thread: Erik Mona promises to publish his Kings of Absalom Campaign.
Spread the word.
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Exploring Absolom, the Starstone cathedral, tracing Aroden's steps as a mortal, hunting for old clerics holding clues, entering decrepit temples of the fallen god... the death of Aroden could become a really cool part of the setting instead of just a backdrop, and I think it would absolutely be worth telling stories about.
LOL, you just described my Kings of Absalom campaign. The first installment alone covers literally everything in your list.
Maybe we should just publish _that_. :/
In this thread: Erik Mona promises to publish his Kings of Absalom Campaign.
Spread the word.
Ya'know you want to do a Noir pulpy investigative adventure, Mona.
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Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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I wish they hadn't made that choice but there's no reason to think that they suddenly stopped being nice people for a while just because Erik wanted to have a moment feeling like an "insider". He's an insider 24 hours a day. I suspect the novelty wore off years ago.
Wait, what?
I created the god, and I decided that we should keep the exact details of his death secret to let individual GMs scheme their own schemes, but it's erroneous to suggest that the secret is held because I or anybody else "wants to feel like an insider."
Would it interest you to know that I, the creator of Aroden and the publisher of the company, do not know the "real" story of his death any more than you do?
We have a working theory, a general concept that we keep in mind so that nothing we say in print specifically contradicts that version of events, but that's an internal thing to keep ourselves consistent. It's not public because it's not the actual answer, at least until we publish it. And we don't plan to publish it because we aren't as concerned with the _how_ as we are with the _so what now_ aspect of what becomes of culture when the most popular god dies.
You want to run a campaign where some weird force is killing gods? Cool. Want to do something where Asmodeus led a consortium of fiends to wipe him out? Ok with us!
It's certainly fair to criticize whether the way we've handled this is appropriate, or whether it could have been better, or whatever, but we're not trying to hide the truth from you. We're trying to leave room for you to create your own truth, if you want, to weave your own ideas into this.
When we say "we don't plan to reveal this mystery" it's not "nyah nyah nyah, we know something you don't know." It's "we don't want to mess up your campaign, so if the mystery interests you, we won't get in the way of your doing what you want with it."
It's kind of the opposite of me wanting to feel like an insider.
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It's kind of the opposite of me wanting to feel like an insider.
Yeah - that's what I said (or meant to say, anyway). :p
I was responding to someone else's impression.
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When we say "we don't plan to reveal this mystery" it's not "nyah nyah nyah, we know something you don't know." It's "we don't want to mess up your campaign, so if the mystery interests you, we won't get in the way of your doing what you want with it."
Understood - James made this point earlier and it's definitely the plus side of doing it the way you did it.
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Exploring Absolom, the Starstone cathedral, tracing Aroden's steps as a mortal, hunting for old clerics holding clues, entering decrepit temples of the fallen god... the death of Aroden could become a really cool part of the setting instead of just a backdrop, and I think it would absolutely be worth telling stories about.
LOL, you just described my Kings of Absalom campaign. The first installment alone covers literally everything in your list.
Maybe we should just publish _that_. :/
And that is the product I have been waiting for since day one of Pathfinder. I can think of no greater politer way of saying this. Please, please, please consider making this an adventure path.
I don't need to to know exactly how he died, but the concept of how he lived and ruled as a god is really good fiction. Please consider doing this!
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It's kind of the opposite of me wanting to feel like an insider.Yeah - that's what I said (or meant to say, anyway). :p
I was responding to someone else's impression.
Yes Steve is not to blame. It was me (and a couple of others *points over shoulder but noone's there*) but in my defense I have since then recanted that 'tis was a silly notion - partly due to Steve here.
I will stress this again; I do not think an Aroden story/adventure/AP would necessarily need to spill the beans. It's just that it is a significant event in-world, should in my humble opinion affect it profoundly, and from there many cool things could emerge. Like Kings of Absolom :P
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It does seem like a missed opportunity not to use Aroden history for more material, even if what we get has absolutely nothing to do with his death. The whole Pyramid Eye icon certainly screams "Mystery Cult" or "Occult Society" group so I get why people get twisted up about it. However, I would much rather get nothing than get something rushed or botched.
But the thing is with missed opportunities is that they might just come around. I'm not holding my breath, but I'd like to see more written about his church prior to his death. What influence his church had on arcane spell casters.
I like what we have seen so far and maybe what I'm hoping for is more in the line of a novel, rather than source book.
Have you read the article in Pathfinder #100 about Aroden? For all the interest for or against the mystery of his death expressed in this thread over the last 72 hours, the article itself got nary a peep from the commentariat.
Commentariat. delightful.
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I think it's a kitchen sink setting, by design and I think that would be the best synopsis. They wanted to create a broad place where they could explore lots of different stories and themes.
This. So much This.
My friends and I decided to build our own world with idea that any modules from any setting would be welcome. You have al-quadim desert stuff.... it's in. Gothic Horror Ravenloft? We got a spot for that. Spelljammer?? Nobody liked Spelljammer so irrelevant. Jungles? Forests? Frozen ice? Asian? Whatever we had, would be okay to run here...
We suck at consistency and it never got very far... but when we got into Golarion that is EXACTLY what we were presented with. ANY kind of adventure you want... it's in this world. Spaceships, cowboys, ninjas, knights... They all have their areas that can cross over if you want... or you can never leave Varisia and stay 'classic'.
That's the elevator pitch as I see it. A setting where anything is possible that works for ANY gaming group. Use as much or as little as you want.
As for the importance of Aroden's death? Like I said, I would like more info of life BEFORE his death... but the actual death itself has never really felt like a major plot point of the setting.
How he died, what did it, why??? it never seemed the point. It wasn't the question... it was the ANSWER. Why is there an eternal storm over here? Why is there a giant unending Whirlpool? Why don't prophecies play a huge part here? Why is there a rip in the world to hell??
Answer.... A god died. It could have been a meteor. It could have been High Magic gone awry... a Dragon apocalypse... Could have been all sorts of things that messed the world up into 'adventure ready' mode. but in this case... a god died.
Have you read the article in Pathfinder #100 about Aroden? For all the interest for or against the mystery of his death expressed in this thread over the last 72 hours, the article itself got nary a peep from the commentariat.
I hadn't heard about it, and haven't bought Hell's Rebels.
IMO that's another bad habit you guys have, putting relevant setting info exclusively in APs. And often the wrong book from where they'd be most relevant (here's looking at you, Carrion Crown Pharasma article).
Minor gripe though.
I don't see how knowing the "canon" answer to what happened to Aroden robs me, or anyone else, as a GM of the ability to create their own answer. Golarion has a lot of features to its world-building that I dislike and I've always just ignored them or worked my way around them without compliant. If Paizo's answer to Aroden's death was unsatisfying in my opinion or didn't fit for my games, I could always just do what I've always done. Of course, the opposite could happen and the answer could be so interesting that it inspires me. I Just wish I had the opportunity to know the answer and make that choice for myself.
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I don't see how knowing the "canon" answer to what happened to Aroden robs me, or anyone else, as a GM of the ability to create their own answer. Golarion has a lot of features to its world-building that I dislike and I've always just ignored them or worked my way around them without compliant. If Paizo's answer to Aroden's death was unsatisfying in my opinion or didn't fit for my games, I could always just do what I've always done. Of course, the opposite could happen and the answer could be so interesting that it inspires me. I Just wish I had the opportunity to know the answer and make that choice for myself.
Some people have issues with it because Paizo has stated that there's an official, but never-to-revealed truth behind this mystery and that they have this canon set so they won't contradict themselves - meaning it's (subtly) influencing their products. And if the GMs then want's to explore the Aroden part of the setting in their campaign, there might be a product coming out next month that would contradict their take. That's a difference compared to e.g. the Mournlands mystery in Eberron, where the creator has stated that he doesn't know the truth any better than anyone else. So whatever you come up with as a GM won't be contradicted by an official Eberron product.
That's not my issue with it at all, though. I mix and match like you do (as much as I have time, I'm not a kid in college any more and thus need ready-made stuff). I've realized that I'm instead looking for an over-arching storyline for Golarion, a common denominator, a focus that isn't "there isn't one", i.e. the kitchen sink, because frankly that's quite a lacklustre Wal-Martsy tagline. And it seems like Paizo used to think at least a little the same, since the Inner Sea World Guide doesn't start with "In Golarion, Save Money, Adventure better!" but "Just over a century ago, the god of humanity died".
I feel that even though Paizo wants to tell a stories about androids and spaceships one day, and samurais and ninjas the next, they could please try to have a common thread tying it all together somewhat, and that could be the death of Aroden. Or something else, but now they have toted the death of this god in their (early) campaign products as a really big and important event, ushering in a new age, so why not go with that? Or better yet, an AP about Aroden and his influence, which would really tie the world back to that first paragraph of their campaign setting book.
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there might be a product coming out next month that would contradict their take.
Well they don't have to worry about this since they've repeatedly stated they are not going to reveal anything about his death. As for everything else about him such as he was when alive or human and being afraid of that being contradicted by official material... I find that a kind of sill worry, since that applies to everything in Golarion since it's a setting still actively supported by it's creators.
The "I don't want to do anything that might be contradicted later" is a very toxic handicap. I like Ragadahn, I had my own headcanon about him. Then The First World was released and it gave plenty of information about him and all the other Eldest. Was I pissed? Not really.
Paizo is constantly putting out new material so binding yourself with the aversion that you might step outside of canon is just crippling.
I've realized that I'm instead looking for an over-arching storyline for Golarion
The Adventure Paths are the closest you're going to get to this. Golarion is a playground setting where GMs and Players can do whatever they want. They don't have to abide by the lore, they don't have to wait until something canonical about a person or place comes out before they can interact with it. If Golarion had an overarching storyline that tied everything together I can say I would be much less interested in the setting. I like the APs and Modules, but they are self contained within the playground, and aren't even considered unless you as the GM run them or declare them as canon.
Another thing, stories come to an end. Playgrounds don't.
Or something else, but now they have toted the death of this god in their (early) campaign products as a really big and important event, ushering in a new age, so why not go with that?
They did, Infernal Cheliax is one of the biggest concerns in the game and plenty of adventures involve it. No death of Aroden, no Infernal Cheliax.
The thing about big and important events in the past is just that, they're big and important historical events. And it's not the only major historical event that happened, there's been plenty of others, that's what makes history (I consider Earthfall much more interesting than Aroden's death, but both are equally important), that have changed the world in major ways or in ripples.
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Out of curiosity... how is this really any different from the OTHER specific things they write into their stories? If the DM's have this whole plot in their heads that they've been working on with... I don't know Shiela Heidmarch or the leaders of Cheliax or something.... and Paizo writes a story or AP that uses them in spectactular fashion and murders them off or something major... How is that 'ok and manageable,' but having a in-house canon reason for Aroden's death that may supplant your home story such a big deal?
I honestly don't see the difference there... They're working with differnet sections of the world and changing them around with every AP that DM's have to dance around to make their story work...
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The Adventure Paths are the closest you're going to get to this. Golarion is a playground setting where GMs and Players can do whatever they want. They don't have to abide by the lore, they don't have to wait until something canonical about a person or place comes out before they can interact with it. If Golarion had an overarching storyline that tied everything together I can say I would be much less interested in the setting. I like the APs and Modules, but they are self contained within the playground, and aren't even considered unless you as the GM run them or declare them as canon..
OK, take the example of a TV-series. They used to be mostly episodic, like many police procedurals still are. The setting was the same, the main characters as well, but each story started and ended in each episode and in the next one there was no trace of what happened the week before. That's Paizo's Golarion. Then there's series like Mad Men, or Game of Thrones. They are almost totally serialized. The plot goes on from the first episode of the series to the last. That's what a specific AP would represent in this example. But then you have a mix of the two. You have a larger slowly brewing plot that pops up now and then again, might never really get solved (X-files) but brings cohesion to the show, and you have smaller stuff that gets done and are then dusted. That's a format I like (I don't dislike the others, but the serialized one with an end to it all wouldn't work for a TTRPG, like you say in the end of your post).
Paizo does not use this mix, they're purely episodic, and won't start just because I write this post, but a way to maybe make everyone happy could be to use something that I think has been toted as a metaplot (ok, some others don't think so) - the death of Aroden - and make an AP out of it. Then you can take parts of it and season the other APs you play and get a cool, long, serialized story. Will be meta for the players, not the characters since they won't be the same. (You can't really do that with other APs since they are so contained and localized.) Or you can just play it front to end of course, like always.
They did, Infernal Cheliax is one of the biggest concerns in the game and plenty of adventures involve it. No death of Aroden, no Infernal Cheliax.
That role of Aroden and his fate is a purely historical one. You could do much more cool stuff with it than that. You can actually tell stories about a world in the wake of a deity's death by telling stories of the dead deity.
I honestly don't see the difference there... They're working with differnet sections of the world and changing them around with every AP that DM's have to dance around to make their story work...
I am now trying to explain the issue that others have, not me, but why not :) I think they see a large difference of scale with the death of Aroden and the start of the Age of Lost Omens and other plotlines, such as whatever happens with Sheila Heidmarch et.al. Aroden's fate is seen as a metaplot, by some. I myself would like it to be a metaplot, like the slumbering Runelords, but stronger and little less localized to one nation (Varisia). Something going on back there and that lends a subtle color to other stories, and not just a historical event that's done and over.
And I would like to see an Aroden AP because I think it could be really cool and could tie a very nice ribbon on the whole package.
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... a way to kind of maybe make everyone happy...
You must be new. :p
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Out of curiosity...
I honestly don't see the difference there... They're working with differnet sections of the world and changing them around with every AP that DM's have to dance around to make their story work...
At first glance, this is a valid point (for which Rysky has also noted).
But I think where some ARE seeing a difference is, as Rysky also noted*: APs are NOT considered canon until they are played by a particular group, as they do not affect the status quo presented in the ISWG - unless the particular AP influences events of a subsequent/(semi-)sequel AP (but even in this case, the events are only canon for the relevant APs). So if something happens in an AP that contradicts one's own game-canon, it is easier to ignore (or appropriate!) if one doesn't like it.
However, in Campaign Setting books (&, to a lesser extent, Player Companions) it's different: They are part of the canon of the setting in that they expand upon the status quo (i.e. setting canon) presented in the ISWG .
So Paizo having a [semi-]official explanation for Aroden's death is necessary to keep some consistency for any product that does officially expand on the setting canon (again, mainly Campaign Settings). However, Paizo does not intend to reveal/make it by publishing it.
And I think it's here where some feel reluctant to deviate from the setting canon by expanding upon the status quo & making their own canon: The possibility that their expansion/ideas/canon will be contradicted by Paizo in official 'setting-canon-expansions' is higher than any reveals in an AP.
TL;DR:
There might not seem a difference between the Aroden Mystery's impact on games vs. whether a particular GM has plans for a particular aspect of the setting (NPC, location, plot hook, etc.) only for it to be thwarted by an AP using the same aspect. However, an AP is not officially canon until Paizo says it is (such as setting up for another AP). Any impact on the setting caused by the Aroden Mystery, on the other hand, is.
I hope that this sort of explains things, at least from where I'm looking at this thread. Everyone who has posted here has had valid points about this subject (yourselves included) - at least to them.
<shrug>
TBO I mostly forget that it's a thing that impacts the setting. It's mostly just a historical event of Golarion.
I don't play in Golarion. But I DO find it a useful toolbox to add elements to or enhance ideas of my group's home setting! There is a lot of awesome material in Pathfinder! But my group has invested too much in our setting to want to use the Pathfinder setting (& Aroden) as is, so...
<shrug>
Carry on!
--C.
...I like the APs and Modules, but they are self contained within the playground, and aren't even considered unless you as the GM run them or declare them as canon.
<edit>The above does not invalidate what Razcar said**.
I am now trying to explain the issue that others have, not me, but why not :) I think they see a large difference of scale with the death of Aroden and the start of the Age of Lost Omens and other plotlines, such as whatever happens with Sheila Heidmarch et.al. Aroden's fate is seen as a metaplot, by some, and I wouldn't blame them since that's what was sold for a while. I myself would like it to be a metaplot, like the slumbering Runelords, but stronger and little less localized to one nation (Varisa). Something going on back there even now and that lends a subtle color to other stories, and not just a historical event that's done and over.
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Some people have issues with it because Paizo has stated that there's an official, but never-to-revealed truth behind this mystery and that they have this canon set so they won't contradict themselves - meaning it's (subtly) influencing their products. And if the GMs then want's to explore the Aroden part of the setting in their campaign, there might be a product coming out next month that would contradict their take.
Whilst that has been my understanding for several years, this thread has changed my perception there. some of the other paizo staff have clarified and Erik Mona gave the horse's mouth version of the above and it is subtly different:
Wait, what?
I created the god, and I decided that we should keep the exact details of his death secret to let individual GMs scheme their own schemes, but it's erroneous to suggest that the secret is held because I or anybody else "wants to feel like an insider."
Would it interest you to know that I, the creator of Aroden and the publisher of the company, do not know the "real" story of his death any more than you do?
We have a working theory, a general concept that we keep in mind so that nothing we say in print specifically contradicts that version of events, but that's an internal thing to keep ourselves consistent. It's not public because it's not the actual answer, at least until we publish it. And we don't plan to publish it because we aren't as concerned with the _how_ as we are with the _so what now_ aspect of what becomes of culture when the most popular god dies.
You want to run a campaign where some weird force is killing gods? Cool. Want to do something where Asmodeus led a consortium of fiends to wipe him out? Ok with us!
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Then you can take parts of it and season the other APs you play and get a cool, long, serialized story.
But then you would have to buy everything that comes out in order to understand the story. Which gets expensive and would turn people off from buying it.
As it is now you just have to get the Inner Sea World Guide in order to get the story, and the PDF is only $10.
Golarion is not a novel, with steps A,B,C, all the way to Z. It's a playground for GMs to tell their own stories in.
Since you brought up X-Files I'll also add that I cared absolutely nothing for the overarching metaplot of the series, I much rather enjoyed the stand alone monster of week episodes.
That role of Aroden and his fate is a purely historical one. You could do much more cool stuff with it than that. You can actually tell stories about a world in the wake of a deity's death by telling stories of the dead deity.
Aroden is not the point of Golarion. Aroden is not the draw of Golarion. Golarion does not revolve around Aroden. His death was an important, world changing, historical event, but so was Earthfall, so was Starfall, so was Jatembe bringing everyone out of the darkness. He was important, but he wasn't the only person or event of importance.
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... a way to kind of maybe make everyone happy...You must be new. :p
I'm but 161 posts old :)