It seems to me that the bonus Invisibility grants to Stealth is incredibly confusing and inconsistent. It just doesn't make sense.
So let's say I'm a rogue, visible, sneaking through fog. I get no automatic bonus to Stealth for the fog, even if nobody has a chance of seeing me.
Let's say I'm a wizard, invisible, sneaking through fog. I get an automatic +20 bonus to Stealth for being invisible—the guards have almost no chance of hearing my footsteps.
Let's say I'm a rogue, visible, sneaking around a blind creature. I get no special bonus for my Stealth check, but they take a -4 penalty on their Perception check.
Let's say I'm a wizard, invisible, sneaking around a blind creature. I get an automatic +20 bonus to Stealth for being invisible, and they get a -4 penalty to hear me.
The thing is, invisibility is already plenty good. It's still worth a 2nd-level spell slot just for the combat advantage—I can summon all the monsters I want, or avoid getting attacked while I escape, or, if I must, give the spell to the rogue to let her get one or two really solid attacks in. No AoOs. And then we add in the utility of getting Hide In Plain Sight at 3rd level.
So, if we just take away the skill bonus, what happens?
I mean, if invisibility didn't give a bonus to stealth checks what happens when someone asks "do I notice anybody?" when there's an invisible creature just standing there?
It seems like you shouldn't automatically notice the invisible critter even if it has no ranks in stealth, since it's still invisible, but it's not like you couldn't smell it, hear it breathing, etc. So there's got to be something to roll. If Invisibility doesn't make it harder for people to detect your presence, what exactly does it do?
I agree that it's weird and inconsistent that invisibility gives bonuses at midnight on a cloudy moonlit night absent any light sources surrounded by blind people, but I think that's more a function of the game's wonky light and perception rules.
It makes more sense.
It should easier give a bonus to stealth with the flavour being "It becomes transparent" (probably a scaling bonus), Or give concealment. Not both.
I mean, if invisibility didn't give a bonus to stealth checks what happens when someone asks "do I notice anybody?" when there's an invisible creature just standing there?
You don't see them, but you do hear them unless they use Stealth. Just like every other case of a creature with Total Concealment.
Think about it. If a creature isn't trying to sneak, yeah, you're gonna notice them pretty quick even if you can't see them. They breathe. Their feet pad or stomp. My brother, Gark the Goblin, is currently walking around behind me. I can hear him clearly.
That said, you won't know where they are. You just know they're there. Pinpointing will remain a challenge.
I mean, if invisibility didn't give a bonus to stealth checks what happens when someone asks "do I notice anybody?" when there's an invisible creature just standing there?You don't see them, but you do hear them unless they use Stealth. Just like every other case of a creature with Total Concealment.
Let's say it's a golem, so it doesn't make any noise and can stand there motionless forever. Which part contributes most to "it's difficult to notice"? That you can't see it, or that it's not making noise?
Also, should telekinetic invisibility give a stealth bonus? It explicitly says that it muffles noise.
That's an issue that remains a problem even without invisibility. I generally rule that a zombie in a closed box cannot be detected by sight or hearing, for instance, but the rules technically say otherwise. There are no standardized rules for true motionlessness. A paralyzed invisible rogue is incapable of making Stealth checks.
You weave strands of aether, bending light and dampening sound; This works as invisibility except that the aetheric bending is easier to notice than normal invisibility, so your bonus on Stealth checks is halved (+10 while moving and +20 while perfectly still).
However, the dampened sound allows you to avoid automatic detection via sound-based blindsense and blindsight, but you do not receive the bonus on Stealth checks from this wild talent against a creature with such abilities.
What badly-constructed sentences...
*Ahem* The effect of the sound dampening is fairly self-evident—it lets you avoid automatic detection and pinpointing. That's still quite good in comparison to standard invisibility. Of course, this ability might need to be powered down slightly (since the bonus halving has no effect), but it otherwise seems pretty easy to adapt.
I may sound like a stuck record by now, but I am okay with how Spheres of Power does it: When you are invisible you gain a bonus to stealth equal to Caster Level.
I may sound like a stuck record by now, but I am okay with how Spheres of Power does it: When you are invisible you gain a bonus to stealth equal to Caster Level.So, at minimum level, you're as easy to detect as someone 30' further away? Do you even have any concealment at that point?
The primary benefit of being invisible is you would be able to make stealth checks in what would normally be plain sight, no?
The primary benefit of being invisible is you would be able to make stealth checks in what would normally be plain sight, no?I may sound like a stuck record by now, but I am okay with how Spheres of Power does it: When you are invisible you gain a bonus to stealth equal to Caster Level.So, at minimum level, you're as easy to detect as someone 30' further away? Do you even have any concealment at that point?
Oh yeah. It still includes the whole 'you are invisible' package.
I personally love conflating Hide & Move Silently -- you shouldn't have to invest in two skills to be stealthy. Rogues get a lot of skill pts, sure, but they have even more holes to shove them down.
The +20 to Stealth is basically reflecting the human dependence on sight. We typically need a really good Perception to be sure that seemingly stray noises not backed up by the sight of something amount to "Intruder! Intruder!" And a race with Blindsense (perhaps due to acute hearing) or the Scent ability bypasses the +20 bonus on Stealth. No fix to Invisibility is needed.
Now, as to whether fog, etc. should provide the same +20 bonus to Stealth... Now we're talking! Or... maybe only +10, since a befogged, blinded, etc. creature knows it can't depend on vision.
You get clumsy ghost syndrome.
Someone is invisible, flying, and in a silence spell. What's the DC to perceive them? What's the mechanism to perceive them?
DC 20-30. You can still spot displaced dust motes, leaves and similar things. On a really hot day you can also probably spot the air currents they create while moving through the air.
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But with only a +3 to stealth? What does that even mean mechanically speaking?
+2 to hit, deny Dex, can stealth in plain sight.
I see it as a kind of incomplete invisibility. Like the Predator's camouflage.
Seems like you have found the problem with combining spot and listen into one skill.
My solution for one have fog give some concealment that doesn't stack with invis. Secondly I would say there needs to be a rule inside of stealth for when you need to treat spot and listen differently.
Its definitely more of a raw then a rai issue for sure. I would just just ignore the +20 to stealth when there trying to find someone via sound.
Personally I would prefer if stealth were split back up into "hide" and "move silently". I would also prefer if perception were split into "spot(count as search also) and listen".
That would remove issues such as someone who is on the other side of a wall door being harder to notice than someone in the room who is invisible.
I know that the invisibility rules say that it doesnt prevent detection by sound, but it also doesn't provide a way to deal with cases like this.
What about instead of +20 to Stealth, an invisible person gets a minimum Stealth of 20?
Then, without needing cover or concealment, they can roll their own Stealth skill, but if it's lower than 20, it is treated as such.
what if it let you take 20 on stealth.
That way you still need your own stealth skill the spell just replaces the dice roll.
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What about instead of +20 to Stealth, an invisible person gets a minimum Stealth of 20?
Then, without needing cover or concealment, they can roll their own Stealth skill, but if it's lower than 20, it is treated as such.
what if it let you take 20 on stealth.
That way you still need your own stealth skill the spell just replaces the dice roll.
I like that idea too.
Oh, and can we just recognize how goofy it is that invisibility gives a Stealth bonus and Silence doesn't?
If a creature lacks sight but perceives the world through sound (echolocation, say) should Silence give the same stealth bonus as invisibility?
...you know, I think the invisibility/blinded/total concealment/deafened/silenced rules snarl might actually be The biggest mess made by RAI vs. RAW in the entire rules system.
Maybe "the bonus is either 20 or 4, flip a coin" as a house rule.
Why stop there? Turn it into a game of I Spy. Hide the rogue's miniature somewhere in the house, and if the GM is able to find it, the rogue is spotted. Bonus points if the rogue's player isn't able to find it either, especially if they're the punk who keeps drinking the host player's milk.
What's the stealth bonus if a creature has tremorsense and no other means of perceiving the world and I'm flying?
these rules are so cluttered
Stealth and perception are abstractions of what creatures are trying to do.
Not all circumstances allow for such use of the skill, and not all creatures allow for certain checks against them. Like how people put points into 'Fly' thinking they can just fly or rolling a 42 diplomacy against mindless, languageless creatures.
Consult your local GM for more information!
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...you know, I think the invisibility/blinded/total concealment/deafened/silenced rules snarl might actually be The biggest mess made by RAI vs. RAW in the entire rules system.
Agreed.
Honestly, if there were to be a comprehensive consolidation and overhaul, do you think it would solve more problems than it might create?
It's one thing to un-scatter and organize the rules that currently exist into a couple pages. Quite another to then start making hard design decisions about how to create new "mortar" rules concerning their interaction with all the other material in the game.
I consider it a good DM move to make these (necessarily) house-rule decisions ahead of time, so you can lay an expectation down for players that want to build characters who'd use those rules, such that both sides of the table are playing by the same set. Not to eliminate adjudication altogether (impossible!), but certainly to minimize it.
It seems to me that the bonus Invisibility grants to Stealth is incredibly confusing and inconsistent. It just doesn't make sense.
So let's say I'm a rogue, visible, sneaking through fog. I get no automatic bonus to Stealth for the fog, even if nobody has a chance of seeing me.
Let's say I'm a wizard, invisible, sneaking through fog. I get an automatic +20 bonus to Stealth for being invisible—the guards have almost no chance of hearing my footsteps.
Let's say I'm a rogue, visible, sneaking around a blind creature. I get no special bonus for my Stealth check, but they take a -4 penalty on their Perception check.
Let's say I'm a wizard, invisible, sneaking around a blind creature. I get an automatic +20 bonus to Stealth for being invisible, and they get a -4 penalty to hear me.
The thing is, invisibility is already plenty good. It's still worth a 2nd-level spell slot just for the combat advantage—I can summon all the monsters I want, or avoid getting attacked while I escape, or, if I must, give the spell to the rogue to let her get one or two really solid attacks in. No AoOs. And then we add in the utility of getting Hide In Plain Sight at 3rd level.
So, if we just take away the skill bonus, what happens?
What you're forgetting is that fog imposes Perception penalties. So while you're not getting bonuses to Stealth, the penalties to Perception are still an effective boosts to your chances of not getting noticed or perceived.
Oh, right. It's inconveniently unmentioned on the pages for fog spells, though.
Under Environment. Similar penalties due exist under darkness rules, though you have to then refer to the Blinded condition, and they're much smaller than those against an invisible foe.
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I use the rules for blinded characters (-4 to STR/DEX checks and Perception checks against them) relative to the invisible creature in lieu of the +20 bonus to perception from invisibility.
I still require beating their DC by 20 to pinpoint the square. Ditto for the Deafened condition with regards to silenced characters.
If a character is both invisible and silenced then I use the +20/+40 listed under invisibility.
Works well enough for me and provides internal consistency.