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Evangelists come from many different backgrounds, and they show an unusual range of diversity. At 2nd level, the evangelist must choose a class she belonged to before adding the prestige class to be her aligned class. She gains all the class features for this class, essentially adding every evangelist level beyond 1st to her aligned class to determine what class features she gains. She still retains the Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks of the prestige class, but gains all other class features of her aligned class as well as those of the evangelist prestige class.
Emphasis mine, but here is the million dollar question: Could it be another prestige class?
Good question. It has already been debated a few times without a definite resolution. It looks like a good FAQ candidate to me.
Good to know. I am SERIOUSLY thinking of delaying my entry into it till level 9 now and going a level of Loremaster first...
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If you are doing PFS, know that you won't be able to play the character at any table that reads aligned class to be "class" not "class or prestige class".
Errr... a "prestige class" is unquestionably a "class". It is literally right there in the name. Just like a "core class", a "base class", an "occult class", an "alternate class", or a "class archetype".
So what you'd really have trouble with is tables that somehow read "class" as "class, other than prestige classes".
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Um, I think that's what James was saying.
If the rule intended to conflate prestige class and class, it would specify prestige class count like all other rules related to class does. Plus the table would include at least one prestige class.
In any event, it doesn't matter. There is no rule saying prestige classes count and no rule saying they don't. So ultimately it is a GM's interpretation until there is an answered FAQ. SO:
Ask your GM.
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If the rule intended to conflate prestige class and class, it would specify prestige class count like all other rules related to class does.
When adding new levels of an existing class or adding levels of a new class (see Multiclassing, below), make sure to take the following steps in order. First, select your new class level. You must be able to qualify for this level before any of the following adjustments are made. Second, apply any ability score increases due to gaining a level. Third, integrate all of the level's class abilities and then roll for additional hit points. Finally, add new skills and feats.
Instead of gaining the abilities granted by the next level in your character's current class, he can instead gain the 1st-level abilities of a new class, adding all of those abilities to his existing ones. This is known as "multiclassing."
All six of those uses of the word "class" apply to prestige classes. Ergo, no "all other rules related to class" demonstrably do NOT "specify prestige class count" when that is the case.
Indeed, the term "class" including prestige classes is far and away the norm within the texts. There are only a handful of instances where prestige classes are excluded, and THOSE are always called out (e.g. FCBs).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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All of that is written assuming non-prestige classes. The prestige class rules explain the differences and how to use them as a regular class.
A lot of the rules are written with assumptions (like how classes are written as if you are only a single class.) do in this case the rules are written assuming only base classes.
In any event, there are no written rules on how or if prestige classes work with aligned class. Until then, only your GM knows.
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I don't see why not. Sub-optimal in many cases, as some prestige classes become available very late. The main goal for the evangelist class is togain the three divine boons as soon as possible (some early boons are pretty good though, so a dip is sometimes cool too)lead others to the faith by example.
When I first heard about the evangelist Aligned Class ability I was worried that I would see everyone making "Class X 5/Evangelist 10." Making what sounded like a pretty cool flavor prestige class into a "required" class for everyone.
In practice it turns out not to be that powerful. The boons are nice but not so overwhelming that it's worth giving up a level of your primary class. Especially now that the Diverse Obedience feat lets you select what boon path you want to take AND makes you count as 2 HD higher.
I did click the FAQ button but as for me I don't see any reason it couldn't be a Prestige Class.
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Given that there is a definition of "class" on page 11 of the Core Rulebook, which specifically includes prestige classes, and literally dozens of cases where use of the term "class" unquestionably includes prestige classes, I do not believe this is a 'frequently' asked question.
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I'm FAQing this because I think it's important, despite the near certainty that devs will say no because they dislike people having fun.
I want it to work, but I think the fact that you could only get 9 levels might hinder it somewhat, I guess you'd still get all 10 levels in the end if you take 1 level in the prestige first, but if you take 2 or more, what happens? Dead levels?
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Probably not, as it could (potentially) put you above the limit of 10 levels in a prestige class, something for which there are no rules.
Unfortunately that argument fails when put in a comparison. If that were the reason, you couldn't be (for example) a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7. Because that would make you a Fighter 21, something for which there are no rules.
The simplest interpretation is that once you reach the max level of your Aligned Class, the ability does nothing.
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Not sure about PFS, but as a GM running a homegame, I'd restrict the align class choices in accordance to the classes suggested in the prereqs section. Yes, I know it's just a suggestion, but it's a damn good one that I would enforce as a GM to prevent weird combos and overspecialization glass-cannoning by the PCs...
Abadar: Alchemist, cavalier, inquisitor, monk, wizard
Asmodeus: Cavalier, magus, monk, rogue, summoner
Calistria: Bard, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, witch
Cayden Cailean: Alchemist, bard, fighter, magus, rogue
Desna: Bard, magus, ranger, rogue, sorcerer
Erastil: Barbarian, druid, fighter, ranger, wizard
Gorum: Barbarian, cavalier, fighter, magus, sorcerer
Gozreh: Barbarian, druid, ranger, summoner, witch
Iomedae: Bard, cavalier, monk, paladin, ranger, wizard
Irori: Alchemist, bard, inquisitor, monk, wizard
Lamashtu: Alchemist, barbarian, sorcerer, summoner, witch
Nethys: Alchemist, magus, sorcerer, summoner, wizard
Norgorber: Alchemist, fighter, magus, rogue, sorcerer
Pharasma: Fighter, inquisitor, oracle, sorcerer, witch
Rovagug: Barbarian, druid, fighter, sorcerer, summoner
Sarenrae: Cavalier, druid, inquisitor, sorcerer, wizard
Shelyn: Bard, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, summoner
Torag: Alchemist, cavalier, fighter, monk, wizard
Urgathoa: Magus, rogue, witch, wizard
Zon-Kuthon: Inquisitor, monk, rogue, summoner, witch
Edit: adding swashbuckler to Cayden Cailean, of course! :) (i.e. and adjudicating newer classes i.e. ACG and OA - on a case by case basis)
If that were the reason, you couldn't be (for example) a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7. Because that would make you a Fighter 21, something for which there are no rules.
There is specifically a section on advancement over 20th level, actually. It's the same section you have to go to in order to reach the rules that let you be a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7 in the first place, since that is 22 character levels.
Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. [...] Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
So a 21st level fighter gains a new hit die, +1 BAB, an increase to their Reflex and Will saves, and a new tier of Weapon Training.
If that were the reason, you couldn't be (for example) a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7. Because that would make you a Fighter 21, something for which there are no rules.There is specifically a section on advancement over 20th level, actually. It's the same section you have to go to in order to reach the rules that let you be a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7 in the first place, since that is 22 character levels.
Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. [...] Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.So a 21st level fighter gains a new hit die, +1 BAB, an increase to their Reflex and Will saves, and a new tier of Weapon Training.
If you are doing that I would recommend just saying that the hybrid classes count as their parent classes for the list (ie an arcanist could choose any wizard or sorcerer entry)
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Not sure about PFS, but as a GM running a homegame, I'd restrict the align class choices in accordance to the classes suggested in the prereqs section. Yes, I know it's just a suggestion, but it's a damn good one that I would enforce as a GM to prevent weird combos and overspecialization glass-cannoning by the PCs...
Desna: Bard, magus, ranger, rogue, sorcerer
Uh oh. Not ideal. Desna needs the other Cha casters too, Oracle, Summoner, whatever. Desna's second Evangelist power is probably the most powerful in the game for Cha casters, to the extent it is worth building a PC on, though it is best for Sorcerers as it allows your save or lose spells to get through.
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Not sure about PFS, but as a GM running a homegame, I'd restrict the align class choices in accordance to the classes suggested in the prereqs section. Yes, I know it's just a suggestion, but it's a damn good one that I would enforce as a GM to prevent weird combos and overspecialization glass-cannoning by the PCs...
Desna: Bard, magus, ranger, rogue, sorcerer
Uh oh. Not ideal. Desna needs the other Cha casters too, Oracle, Summoner, whatever. Desna's second Evangelist power is probably the most powerful in the game for Cha casters, to the extent it is worth building a PC on, though it is best for Sorcerers as it allows your save or lose spells to get through.
Always wondered about that one... long ago I played a bard/evangelist of Desna and was adding my Cha twice break through enemy's SR. Not sure if that was legit, but bard and sorcerer are both clearly on that recommended list, so I went for it.
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Sorry, I meant 1d20 + caster level + CHAmod for SR instead of 1d20 + caster level.
I think the adding twice was for the purposes of Concentration checks, where you usually use 1d20 + caster level + casting ability score. So using that Desna boon, my bard was at: 1d20 + caster level + casting ability score + CHAmod = 1d20 + caster level + (Chamod*2)
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If you don't use that, level 20 is an absolute cap that you can't bypass with any combination of classes.Probably not, as it could (potentially) put you above the limit of 10 levels in a prestige class, something for which there are no rules.Unfortunately that argument fails when put in a comparison. If that were the reason, you couldn't be (for example) a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7. Because that would make you a Fighter 21, something for which there are no rules.
The simplest interpretation is that once you reach the max level of your Aligned Class, the ability does nothing.
Theoretically class6/prestige class4/evangelist 10 is possible. If you apply evangelist aligned class ability to the prestige class you end with 13 levels in a prestige class while staying within 20 levels.
I'm often bewildered at how the concept of subset is so alien to so many members of this board
Not sure about PFS, but as a GM running a homegame, I'd restrict the align class choices in accordance to the classes suggested in the prereqs section. Yes, I know it's just a suggestion, but it's a damn good one that I would enforce as a GM to prevent weird combos and overspecialization glass-cannoning by the PCs...
I don't get the concern here. Evangelist costs you a feat, your favored class bonus, and delays your class progression by a level. In exchange for that you gain some modest features, some boons that are modest to light when you account for the character's overall level (excepting the capstone which is appropriately powered), and lots of really nice campaign flavor. It's a lovely prestige class--one of PF's most playable ones because of its flexibility--but what is earth-shattering about arbitrary class alignments?
If anything, the suggested classes are the ones that benefit the most from the particular deity, so your logic escapes me.
I'm often bewildered at how the concept of subset is so alien to so many members of this board
While All Poodles are dogs, not all dogs are poodles
Probably not, as it could (potentially) put you above the limit of 10 levels in a prestige class, something for which there are no rules.Unfortunately that argument fails when put in a comparison. If that were the reason, you couldn't be (for example) a Fighter 15 / Evangelist 7. Because that would make you a Fighter 21, something for which there are no rules.
The simplest interpretation is that once you reach the max level of your Aligned Class, the ability does nothing.
Not really, you're going to hit character level 20 and then you stop taking levels.
You can jump into a prestige class at 6, gain 10 levels in evangelist and have to figure out what level 11 in a prestige class is while being under character level 20.
Its apples and oranges
Unless you don't, of course. So not really.
Not really, you're going to hit character level 20 and then you stop taking levels.
I mean yeah you can ignore the rulebook commentary about not going past 20 and go off into the wilderness i suppose but at that point you might as well just adjucate however you want at your table and not look for an official answer or community consensus.
Page 406 base rulebook, any rules beyond 20 are 3rd party paizo may make rules for it in the future (they havent) and there are significant problems to those products. They include something to help you limp along for another level or three but come right out and say they aren't robust enough to keep things interesting much past 20th. there is some commentary about using prestige classes to continue past 20 but nothing about prestige classes continuing past 10. Scalable abilities X/3 levels continue to scale but no new abilities are given.
The whole segment reads with a tone of "this is kind of a bad idea and you're absolutely going outside the scope of the game rules as written but here's some loose guidelines"
I'm often bewildered at how the concept of subset is so alien to so many members of this boardWhile All Poodles are dogs, not all dogs are poodles
The fact that poodles are dogs pretty much ends the argument of this thread
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Not sure about PFS, but as a GM running a homegame, I'd restrict the align class choices in accordance to the classes suggested in the prereqs section. Yes, I know it's just a suggestion, but it's a damn good one that I would enforce as a GM to prevent weird combos and overspecialization glass-cannoning by the PCs...I don't get the concern here. Evangelist costs you a feat, your favored class bonus, and delays your class progression by a level. In exchange for that you gain some modest features, some boons that are modest to light when you account for the character's overall level (excepting the capstone which is appropriately powered), and lots of really nice campaign flavor. It's a lovely prestige class--one of PF's most playable ones because of its flexibility--but what is earth-shattering about arbitrary class alignments?
If anything, the suggested classes are the ones that benefit the most from the particular deity, so your logic escapes me.
I like to enforce things that align with the campaign setting flavor. That huge table is pointless if everyone just glance once at it, throw it out, and write it off as an ugly useless suggestion. Suggestion, in this case, as a GM, has been made law. The end.
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Contributor
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I guess, by that logic, the gods just don't like some of their worshipers as much.
Sarenrae loves you! Unless you're not a cavalier, druid, inquisitor, sorcerer, or wizard. Then you can screw right off. (Interestingly, bard isn't on that list. I guess Dawnflower dervishes just aren't very important to Sarenrae.)
Shelyn will let any martial class, from barbarian to vigilante, become a sentinel. But if you're a magus, Shelyn just doesn't love you. Why not try Asmodeus instead? He'll be your friend.
My point is... the evangelist is deliberately broad so that members of any class have a path to deific favor. With a few exceptions (Nethys), this goes against the flavor and nature of the gods themselves. It also puts heavy constraints on PC flavor, ensuring that players can only pick from a narrow range of stereotypes.
I dunno, though. Maybe I'm just too into this. ^_^
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Has nothing to do with gods not loving their worshipers. Remember this table is just for Evangelists. If you look at the boons for Exalted and Sentinels, you get other stuff for other classes. It may be partially rooted in game balance and partially rooted in campaign flavor.
For instance, Sarenrae's Evangelist 3rd boon is flaming weapon, so yay cavalier, druid and inquisitor (not sure why sorcerer and wizard are everywhere on that table though...)
I guess I should just throw out my Wizard Evangelist of Shelyn then? Because Wizard isn't on the list of most likely classes for Shelyn Evangelists. Obviously Paizo didn't really mean it when they said "any worshiper of any deity can become an evangelist" and "most likely" is clearly code for "exclusively". (And, yes, a Wizard Evangelist of Shelyn really is my character in our current campaign).
Has nothing to do with gods not loving their worshipers. Remember this table is just for Evangelists. If you look at the boons for Exalted and Sentinels, you get other stuff for other classes.
Hey, good idea. Let me try that with my wizard:
REQUIREMENTS
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells.
Huh. Guess not. That's really for cleric types and their relatives, anyway.
REQUIREMENTS
Feats: Weapon Focus (deity’s favored weapon).
Special: Base attack bonus +5 or higher.
Well. This would cost me three feats instead of one: Deific Obedience, Weapon Focus (glaive), and the prereq of Martial Weapon Proficiency (glaive) since I'm a wizard. Oh and I'd have to wait until Level 10 to ge a BAB of +5. And the PrC doesn't add anything to spell caster ability since it's obviously for fighter types, not wizards.
So. Guess not.
I think the point that you are missing here with your house rule is that Evangelist is the catch-all deific prestige class by design. The whole point of the Evangelist class is that there aren't restrictions on the base class.