Why, for a caster (in my case a Sorcerer), is a Lich better than a Vampire? I understand the Vampire has more weaknesses, but it gets much more.
Becoming a vampire usually isn't a choice, it is just something that happen when you lose a fight with a vampire. Becoming a lich is a choice, one any caster capable of making the phylactery can make.
Vampire have some very annoying weaknesses. Can't enter a private dwelling without permission, dies in sunlight, damaged by running water, vulnerable to pointy sticks and vorpal weapons. A lich has no special weaknesses, aside from the general weakness of undead (which vampires also have). A lich can walk into your home at will, go for a swim outside at noon, and couldn't care less about pointy sticks or vorpal weapons.
A lich is immune to cold and electricity damage. A vampire only has resistance 10 to those.
A vampire that reaches 0 hit points has only 2 hours to reach its coffin (which is roughly 9 miles max, according to the vampire entry). If it fails to do so, it is destroyed. A lich that reaches 0 hit points simply reforms 1d10 days later at its phylactery, which can be anywhere in the multiverse.
The only real benefit from choosing vampire over lich is that you can become a full vampire as early as 5th level, for free (assuming you can find a vampire to turn you). Of course, you would also be under the control of the vampire who created you, at least until his death.
If you want to become a lich, however, you have to wait until 11th level, have the Craft Wondrous Item feat, and spend 120,000 gold.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Three main reasons come to mind, the extra abilities that a vampire gets don't excite a master magician that much, the vampire has a bunch of annoying weaknesses that any enemy who can really challenge you will know, and liches are pretty much immortal (any lich that can't manage to keep their phylactery safe is too weak and dumb to have achievd lichdom.)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One good reason to become a lich rather than a vampire is that liches are free willed whereas vampires are bound by the will of the vamp that created them.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vampires: pretty, but filled with a ton of commonly known weaknesses
Lich: well built for survival, and destroying the lich itself does little to solve the problem. Your death is locked away in a box that you can hide with whatever your paranoid means allow.
Liches provide the far more secure immortality. They are what wizards settle for when they realize they will never live long enough to get to the power needed for true immortality. They are all about being conservative, taking the lesser choice that is safer. They are the tempting low hanging fruit on the path to immortality.
Vampires...are the fruit that have fallen on the ground. They look alright, but theya re actually rotten. Easier to grab... but you get what you pay for. They are the fad choice that people pick because they look like they would be cool, but they are usually grabbed by know nothings that don't realize what they are getting into. They get a couple of cool powers, but ultimately that is still just decoration to tempt people to the far, far weaker option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The vampire has much better stat bonuses than the lich. A vampire gets +6 STR, +4 DEX, +2 INT, +2 WIS, +4 CHA and a +6 natural AC modifier. The Lich gets +2 INT, +2 WIS, +2 CHA and a +5 natural AC modifier or the creature’s natural AC bonus if it is more. Vampires also gain Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, and Toughness as bonus feats. The vampire also gets more abilities but has a lot more weaknesses than the lich.
The big advantage of the lich is they are a lot harder to permanently kill.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vampires however...are the sexy whereas the lich is just a rotting corpse, no matter what cosmetic magic you use to dress it up. You can't even drink coffee anymore.
Those two are enough of the dealbreaker, because what's immortality without a body you can actually enjoy being in?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Even if your GM rules you to turn into a corpse-like appearance, just use the ritual from villain codex to look sexy again (or just cast an illusion spell).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vampires feel hunger. Pain in the ass.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lichdom is for introverts who want to be left alone to get along with their (sinister) work. Vampirism is for those who want to hang out with other people and drink their blood.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vampires feel hunger. Pain in the ass.
that's what makes it worth living. You can put up all the cosmetic magic you want on a lich. It doesn't change the fact that you're nothing but an animated pile of rot with all the sex drive of a burned out log.
The hungers of a vampire are what make it lively.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
is there a rule that says you can't be both? (i havent actually looked)
if you can get over the whole mind control hump couldn't you just do them both as you level?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both are acquired templates applied to a humanoid. As soon as you apply the first one you cease to be a humanoid, and are ineligible for the second.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Vampires feel hunger. Pain in the ass.that's what makes it worth living. You can put up all the cosmetic magic you want on a lich. It doesn't change the fact that you're nothing but an animated pile of rot with all the sex drive of a burned out log.
The hungers of a vampire are what make it lively.
And deadly. Since your hunger includes the locals, and that ends up with stakes in the heart.
Meanwhile, people only really notice the lich when he goes out and starts on his plan for godhood or whatever (excluding the trouble he gets into during whatever dark things he does when first becoming a lich). And even after getting the attention of enemies, the lich can then just scurry off to a hidey hole and wait a hundred years until everyone that got in his way before is long dead.
When a vampire gets people on his tail, he is still compelled to go out and continue with the feeding that got him in trouble in the first place. The hunger is he one consistent defining trait for vampires, the built in self destructive impulse.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lich is for those for whom the intellectual hungers and drives dominate over the physical, or those who desire this state.
Vampire is for those for whom the physical hungers and drives are paramount, or who desire such a state.
Really, comes down to intellect vs instinct.
Lich is for those for whom the intellectual hungers and drives dominate over the physical, or those who desire this state.
Vampire is for those for whom the physical hungers and drives are paramount, or who desire such a state.
Really, comes down to intellect vs instinct.
Lichdom is for those who are content to merely exist in a body with reduced to little to no sensation... you know the things that make life living beyond merely existing. Vampirism is for those who want to LIVE with the risks that living brings.
I mean really who would you rather be... Strahd.. or Xykon?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've never heard of a lich moping and whining about his fate, vampires on the other hand...
I've never heard of a lich moping and whining about his fate, vampires on the other hand...
And you never hear of a lich being excited or passionate about anything either. They're barely more lively than the books they surround themselves with.
And the vampires who whine are mainly those who start their careers as victims, as opposed to those who choose that destiny.
Spike and Angelus for instance. have no second thoughts or compunctions about what they are.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Xykon is nearly giddy with excitement fairly often, but he's also a moron, so he may not be the best example.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hell, go dread devourer...you become a tank that can eat souls, then SLA pane shift to...wherever the hell you want.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Back in my day, any 0 Level d6 Commoner could be turned into a Vampire.
You could not even become a Lich unless you were a Level 18 spellcaster, your life energies were just not up to the task and the process would outright kill you, no save, no resurrection.
Both are acquired templates applied to a humanoid. As soon as you apply the first one you cease to be a humanoid, and are ineligible for the second.
Now that I've actually looked I don't think that's right (about templates in general). The only reason I see for not being able to combine the Lich and Vampire templates is the line that says they can only apply to living creatures.
Acquired Templates don't seem to have a type prerequisite (show me the rule if you know of it, i couldn't find one), so you could have a Native Outsider Lich, or a Magical Beast Vampire (theoretically). Pretty much anything that isn't already undead is fair game.
Note: a regular outsider could become a Lich, but it wouldn't do them any good since they don't have a body separate from their soul. They would spend the rest of their existence locked in a phylactery that they made themselves.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, the templates in question call for any living creature, not humanoid specifically. Doesn't change the outcome. The issue with stacking templates is whether the first makes you ineligible for the second, in tbis case it will, in whatever order you apply them.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Physical sensation ain't all there is to living. Or unliving. Only a masochist says, "Yeah, vampires feel constant hunger for the blood of the living, but at least they feel something."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Physical sensation ain't all there is to living. Or unliving. Only a masochist says, "Yeah, vampires feel constant hunger for the blood of the living, but at least they feel something."
There's a reason we say "pinch me" I'm not sure I'm awake.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well, yeah. Pinching is supposed to wake you up.
Or, in this case, kill you proper.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've never heard of a lich moping and whining about his fate, vampires on the other hand...If i'm remember correctly there was a bard lich in Ravenloft of that kind....
Moping and/or whining is pretty much mandatory in Ravenloft.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
And you never hear of a lich being excited or passionate about anything either.
I'm not sure that's true. Most liches I've seen in various forms of fiction are quite passionate about things.
Vampires are passionate. Liches are logical. :D
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Both are acquired templates applied to a humanoid. As soon as you apply the first one you cease to be a humanoid, and are ineligible for the second.
Cast the ritual from the arcane society chapter of villain codex and you could technically get both, because you become a living humanoid again (with all the benefits of undeath).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Intellectual delights can be quite as delightful as the physical kind, though they may be harder for the average person to achieve. A person who is intelligent enough to become a powerful spellcaster though is probably well acquainted with intellectual delights.
You don't hear about liches being delighted about things, but that's probably because most stories about liches involve people trying to kill them. Not the best circumstances.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Neither is the best undead template for a caster.
The winner is... Dread Wraith Sovereign because they get a mighty +14 to Cha. +14!
And Incorporeal but not killed by sunlight and various stuff nobody cares about - you are a spellcaster who has picked up +14 to your casting stat, you can do what you like. Just cast Possession if you want a body. Most people can't cast back because you have a very rare 12+ level SR. They can't really hit you so well with weapons either - +20 Dex and also the Cha bonus is added to AC, that's +17.
Vampires are sexy but flawed, Liches are overthinking it as usual. Just go for raw power in your undeath.
The vampire gets to be dead sexy....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Neither is the best undead template for a caster.
The winner is... Dread Wraith Sovereign because they get a mighty +14 to Cha. +14!
If we can use third-party, we should probably put 3.5e material up as well. Just chuck a billion evolved undead templates on a lich.
Totally unrelated to the topic, but it sorta bugs me that none of the various types of ghost template have access to any sort of possession.
Ghosts can possess people though... That's what it's malevolence ability does.
I vote for the vetala vampire myself.
If you've gotta inhabit someone's corpse, it might as well be your enemy's...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Psychic vampire all the way. Vetalas are obsolete.
Play body jumping transformer via Object Possession. If they kill you possess something and teleport away to rest up for an hour.
Psychic vampire all the way. Vetalas are obsolete.
Play body jumping transformer via Object Possession. If they kill you possess something and teleport away to rest up for an hour.
They may be more powerful, but I like my fleshy bits too much, personally - hence my preference.
That said, with Vetala, as long as you have access to teleport and/or plane shift, you basically don't have any issues - keep a stack of saved corpses nearby in your safe place (demiplane, if you have it), and you're basically like a lich only better - you can instantly recover, arrive at the place you were destroyed, and be completely unrecognized. You don't need to escape - you already have escaped by being nowhere nearby when the body is destroyed.; and if you don't have access to teleport and/or plane shift, it's still not that big a deal (unless you stupidly trapped yourself into a demiplane - that's on you for being dumb, though, and psychic doesn't
Actually, upon reading, Luddites (and more sunder-prone PCs) can easily ruin a psychic vampire's day.
While psychic's SLAs are demonstrably superior to whatever else the Vetala gets, Vetala's possess corpse ability guarantees immortality with proper precautions.
(Also, as an aside, can things like alter self function on an animated object form possessed by a psychic vampire? I know they can function on the undead, I'm just not sure of the animated object.)
The psychic vampire can possess helpless people. His slam eventually makes people helpless. So same thing, he goes walking about in other peoples bodies.
But only for 10 hours (or 1 hour/HD, whichever is better), but that's similar to the vetala (granted, most vetala are going to have a shorter time due to their malevolence ability)... except, again, the vetala is safer, as the host can be quite some distance from the vetala's "real" body.
That said, I really wasn't looking into that aspect, 'cause it's not where the real power of either lies - the fact is, when psychic inhabits an item, that's it: the item is where the psychic's body is; but when a vetala inhabits a corpse, the corpse is a perfect long-distance vehicle for the vetala to send from safety.
The vetala really doesn't get anything special for SLAs, unlike the psychic, but the psychic's methods of self-continuance are kind of sucky by comparison. Vetala lets you be your freak self in complete safety.
(Which basically makes it superior to a lich, considering the complete lack of cost, better ability scores, free feats, solid skills, and so on; a lich has a better paralysis, but nothing else really matters much to high level foes.)
Also: humorous convergence of topic (humorous only in that it's coincidental, so maybe only to me). :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Vampire and lich,
Lich and vampire.
Holding cold hands,
By the campfire.
Lich says to vampire,
“Love me do.”
Vampire says,
“No blood in you.”
Vampire vamps,
And lich he liches,
Vamp’s got looks,
But lich got riches.
Half a vamp's
A bit scary (semi),
But save us from,
A lich that’s demi.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
doesn't becoming a wraith cause you to lose all your class levels?Neither is the best undead template for a caster.
The winner is... Dread Wraith Sovereign because they get a mighty +14 to Cha. +14!
And Incorporeal but not killed by sunlight and various stuff nobody cares about - you are a spellcaster who has picked up +14 to your casting stat, you can do what you like. Just cast Possession if you want a body. Most people can't cast back because you have a very rare 12+ level SR. They can't really hit you so well with weapons either - +20 Dex and also the Cha bonus is added to AC, that's +17.
Vampires are sexy but flawed, Liches are overthinking it as usual. Just go for raw power in your undeath.
Yes, but they aren't talking about the regular wraith. They are talking about the dread wraith sovereign, which doesn't lose class levels. It does require you to spend some time as a regular dread wraith, and so lose your class levels, but you get those back once the dread wraith sovereign that created you is destroyed (Assuming you had 10 hit dice before becoming a dread wraith).