Why commoners are always 1st level


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I have never understood why commoners and other npc classes like warrior are almost always 1st level. It is really bugging me right now cause I am playing in a King Maker Game and I am running into this nonsense all the time.

We are using "ultimate rulership" (Which is a fantastic supplement) and I am reading the recruitment edict that talks about percentages of your population that you can recruit into the military based on your kingdoms policy on war. But they also talk about numbers of elite troops vs normal troops. Elites are apparently 2nd to third level characters?! While normal is first level?!

This makes no sense to me because I see a thirty year old man and I assume he has seen some stuff he has been through a couple of jobs probably set in on a career a few years back. All in all he has experience. It is not Adventuring experience but that is why he levels up in the worst class in the game.

In my games as gm I always assume the average humanoid you run into is third level. If he or she is particularly old or young I give or take two to three levels. But it gets annoying as I see this concept of everyone but PCs and bad guys are all first level losers. Who couldn't even wipe their own arse if they took ten on the roll.

Am I alone here or do some of you guys wish we could presume a little more depth in the foreground here?


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Because I consider the whole idea of upper level commoners absurd. If they're that exposed to something that would give them levels, they've made the transfer to adventurerer and should be retrained into an appropriate class.


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Combat is not the only way to gain experience and why should it be. You get experience points for role-playing your character well. For completing a story arch. commoner would get the same thing. He would make a master work item, survive a famine, fends off wolves in a particularly cold winter. Ask any homesteader about how many life building experiences they go through and you will be drinking and laughing and crying for weeks on end.

Besides take a look at a sixth level commoner and tell me if you applied all of his feats to non combat feats focused on making him better at his profession and giving him maybe one for self defense feat. He would still get his butt kicked in a throw down with a second or third level pc. He would give em a black eye to be true, but he still wouldn't stand much of a chance.


My bad for the double post. I caught a little lag there for a bit.


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Mr.Goblin wrote:

Combat is not the only way to gain experience and why should it be. You get experience points for role-playing your character well. For completing a story arch. commoner would get the same thing. He would make a master work item, survive a famine, fends off wolves in a particularly cold winter. Ask any homesteader about how many life building experiences they go through and you will be drinking and laughing and crying for weeks on end.

Besides take a look at a sixth level commoner and tell me if you applied all of his feats to non combat feats focused on making him better at his profession and giving him maybe one for self defense feat. He would still get his butt kicked in a throw down with a second or third level pc. He would give em a black eye to be true, but he still wouldn't stand much of a chance.

You talk about commoners when you're really describing experts.


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A commoner can easily be a farmer or an unskilled laborer. An expert is someone who has a specialized craft that requires training. but they are two sides of the same coin. you would likely see a wealthy commoner eventually retrain into expert levels if he wanted to move up the ladder. Such as a dock worker becoming a foreman.


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Also this post is talking about other NPC Classes too. Since when has a guard who has been on the force for a few years first level?


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I understand PCs need to be exceptional so lets put this in perspective. In the span of one year an adventuring party can get to tenth level. But an NPC would likely take fifteen to twenty years to do the same.

So why do people feel threatened when a thirty six year old man does not get killed by a feral cat that he happens to piss off when walking down an alley in the city.

Or that a mother can take ten on a heal check and manage to get a fifteen even though it is not a class skill? (basic dc for first aid as well as high enough to help deal with most common diseases.)


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NPC commoners don't really have that many story arcs. They're NPC commoners. Their big arc is "will I or will I not get eaten by my own housecat".


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Commoners are NOT always first level. The NPC Codex and Gamemastery Guide, I believe they are, have quite a few that aren't.

Leveling up in an NPC class is kind of like growing without special training or natural talent in a particular direction. For example, a noble may be Aristocrat 5 - definitely tougher than the average person thanks to their upbringing, though not by all that much and still probably not a match for a serious, trained Fighter.


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I see no issue with the rare 5th level commoner. Sometimes regular people do amazing things.

I think pigeonholing all NPC's into helpless weaklings is stale.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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My take: Commoners and all of the NPC classes can range in level, and absolutely do. Just check any of our adventures pretty much for plenty of examples.

That said, they almost NEVER go above 5th level. When they do, it's for unique and unusual and specific story reasons. For example, I made a shopkeeper in Burnt Offerings a 7th level commoner to catch players off guard for assuming that he'd be a pushover in a fist-fight, but also to model the fact that he's got an uncommon drive to be a grocer, but not enough drive to be anything MORE than a grocer.

NPC classes above 10th level are INCREDIBLY rare. I think we may have published a few of them at that level in some of the hardcover rulebooks (GameMastery Guide and NPC Codex), but I can't think of a single one we've published in print. Once your'e above 10th level, you're a mover and a shaker and have better options to pick to fulfill your destiny than NPC classes.

Obviously, that mindset might be different in other campaigns or homebrew worlds, which is why, even though we have no plans to use the rules for above 10th level NPC class characters much at all (if ever) they're in there for anyone else who wants to use them.


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I've played a 21st lvl commoner, it was amazing, since I was still just a common man walking around with archmages, high priests, and kings, it was so much fun, because atvthe level, I was generally just a servant, as far as NPCs saw me, and the common folk weren't awed or scared by me, like they were the rest. Champion of the common people, type thing.


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make the ultimate npc classed npc 20 levels in each of the npc classes :D


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Because I consider the whole idea of upper level commoners absurd.

I don't know, a lot of people are farmers. Most are going to be average farmers, some might even be particularly poor farmers, but some people are going to be really good farmers aren't they?

Since things like "maximum skill ranks" depend on your level, we have to let commoners have a range of levels since some people are better at farming, fishing, etc. than other people in their same line of work, and the expert class doesn't necessarily describe "I know everything there is to know about fishing these waters, and practically nothing else."


Mr.Goblin wrote:
Also this post is talking about other NPC Classes too. Since when has a guard who has been on the force for a few years first level?

When they're not getting into a fight for their lives four times a day, like adventurers do.

Personally, I think the Commoner class is a bad idea, as it kinda erodes the implicit idea that any two characters of level (X) are roughly equal in power. (Then C/M Disparity applies jackhammers and dynamite to that idea, but that's another thread.)

Blindmage wrote:
I've played a 21st lvl commoner, it was amazing, since I was still just a common man walking around with archmages, high priests, and kings, it was so much fun, because atvthe level, I was generally just a servant, as far as NPCs saw me, and the common folk weren't awed or scared by me, like they were the rest. Champion of the common people, type thing.

You're not just 'a Commoner', you're The Commonest! :D

(In other news, 'common' no longer looks like a real word to me.)


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mr.Goblin wrote:
I have never understood why commoners and other npc classes like warrior are almost always 1st level.

They're not always 1st level. Heck, just look at Paizo's generic commoners. A beggar is 1st level, but your typical pig farmer is 2nd, and a miner is 3rd. Among experts, an apprentice jeweler might be 1st level, but an old sailor will be 2nd, and a seasoned trapper will be 3rd.


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Arbane the Terrible wrote:


Personally, I think the Commoner class is a bad idea, as it kinda erodes the implicit idea that any two characters of level (X) are roughly equal in power. (Then C/M Disparity applies jackhammers and dynamite to that idea, but that's another thread.)

That idea was never meant to apply to the NPC classes which are lower in CR. CR-1 assuming you're keeping to levels 5 and below. At higher levels the CR difference widens geometrically. Or it should.


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Where are you getting the idea that commoners are only 1st level? I figure that if a person is a capable member of society, they are likely level 1 for age 15-20, level 2 21-27, level 3 28-32, level 4 33-and on. Town elders or the top merchant in an area, for instance, would be level 5. I don't see using NPC Classes above 5 typically, but those levels seem appropriate.


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I've houseruled my commoners and experts. Basically their skill points, feats and ability attributes go up with each level but nothing else does. So they become more skilled but remain soft and squishy in combat.


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If your NPCs are fairly high level, you're just telling your PCs "The Story of Why You Suck."

If a Barmaid is level 5, then she's quite a bit more competent than the starting PCs. She knows a good deal more than the Bard and is a better thief than the Rogue.

Save the town from goblins? The local Carpenter can save the town. He can also hand the Fighter his tail if he gets uppity.

Find a random Hermit in the wild? He'll trap you in a Web and burn you to a crisp with a 5d4 Burning Hands!

Shopkeeper? He'll attack you with his broom... USING FURIOUS FOCUS!!!!

Think you know something? This Elven Sage has +19 to ALL KNOWLEDGES!!!

If your NPCs are high level, exactly why does anyone need the PCs?


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Commoner is a 20 level class. Where are our level 20 commoners?

Dark Archive

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The metagaming reason is because NPC classes are terrible. Those who can become anything othr than commoner will become anything other than commoner. That's why you won't find high level commoners. If you've got levels in commoner, your most likely totally inept.

There's that other thing though, where you're effectively epic at level 6. The basic theory behind this is that a level 6 monk could win a gold medal for the 100 meter dash and the long jump at the olympics, while a level 6 ranger could win a gold medal in archery. As most commoners aren't epic, most commoners won't make it to level 6.

Has anyone ever made a commoner BBEG? I've had this idea for a level 5 commoner vampire for a while now. I don't know what to do with him...

Grand Lodge

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I actually just started a Campaign with my group, they started off as Level 0 commoners, with -500 XP, it was truly exciting, they managed to make it to Level 1 and then were allowed to train into their classes. I am still amazed no one died, some how they managed to survive, through tactics and sheer luck.


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the David wrote:

The metagaming reason is because NPC classes are terrible. Those who can become anything othr than commoner will become anything other than commoner. That's why you won't find high level commoners. If you've got levels in commoner, your most likely totally inept.

There's that other thing though, where you're effectively epic at level 6. The basic theory behind this is that a level 6 monk could win a gold medal for the 100 meter dash and the long jump at the olympics, while a level 6 ranger could win a gold medal in archery. As most commoners aren't epic, most commoners won't make it to level 6.

Has anyone ever made a commoner BBEG? I've had this idea for a level 5 commoner vampire for a while now. I don't know what to do with him...

Have you thought of some of the more exotic vampire kinds?

Templates!

My favorite is the vetala vampire (possess the corpses of your enemies!), but the psychic vampire also works very well for this sort of thing. That said, both a jiang-shi and standard dude work just fine.

Vetala idea:
With a vetala, he's probably the local cemetery dude (to have access to all the corpses), and just possesses one of the corpses to do his job. The PCs could be quite surprised to find the Groundskeeper was a skeleton! He could bury his "real" body in one of the tombs - it would be nearly impossible for the PCs to be able to find him before he could recover. Bonus points if he either secretly (or secretly-but-not-really) controls the town (perhaps it's even voluntary on the town's part, making the PCs the "bad guys" in the locals' eyes for killing him), or manipulates important people. He could even be venerated as a local god... and he might not even care, 'cause... why bother caring? He's got a job to do!

Wussiest god of death, ever!

Bear in mind, in its original legend, though it was considered a demon, when it was defeated, it actively aided its conqueror in finding out the truth of who was actually at fault for that man's losses - so there is precedent for that sort of thing.

(Vetala first, 'cause it's my favorite and I secretly want to play a vetala someday.)

Psychic idea:
On the other hand, the psychic works well with a plain farmer. The PCs finally, at last, uncover the sinister mastermind was secretly "Friendly Jeb" the local hay-rancher and dairy farmer! They finally destroy him, and suddenly - *POOF!* - he's gone!

He leaves behind only his magic +1 pitchfork (which collapses to the ground) and a few valuables... only to spring forth in the night from <insert object here>, when the PCs are least expecting it!

(It's hasty, but there's a concept, there...)

Jiang-shi:

- Andy: "So the local clerk of courts is dead?"

- Bree: "Yeah. Doesn't stop that incompetent lazy jerk from holding everyone up at the DHV - why that guy is also in charge of the Department of Horse-drawn Vehicles is anyone's guess."

- Andy: "But, if he's dead...?"

- Bree: "What?"

- Corin: "I think he's trying to ask, if he's deeeeaaaad...?"

- Dara: "That... doesn't clear up the question. You literally just stopped where Andy did."

- Eula: "What those two are trying to ask, is if he's dead, how is he walking around? Doi-"

- Dara: "He's not."

- Andy: "Excuse me?"

- Bree: "She said, 'He's not.'"

- Freya: "Yes, okay, we get that, but he's not...?"

- Bree: "What?"

- Andy: "Exactly."

- Gus: "What?"

- Eula: "No-no: we're trying to ask, 'He's not what?' Daggum these commoners..."

- Dara: "Oh! He's not walking around."

- Corin: "What? But you said he was at the DHV? And the clerk of courts?"

- Bree: "Yeah, that's right."

- Freya: "But if he's not walking around...?"

* silence and blank stares, and uncertain expressions on faces *

- Andy: "You, uh... you gonna answer, or...?"

- Dara: "Or what?"

- Corin: "Nevermind. Just, please, answer Freya's question."

- Gus: "Sure! Jus' so long as she finishes it; kinda hard to know what she's askin' otherwise."

- Eula (annoyed): "They were trying to ask, 'If he's not walking around, how does he get to and from the DHV?' and 'What's his deal?'"

- Bree: "Wow. You people are really bad at asking questions."

- Andy: "... sure. So..."

- Bree: "So?"

- Corin: "daggummit - The. Question. Eula. Asked. If. You. Please. ?."

- Gus: "Oh, sure. He just hops back and forth between the places."

- Andy: "He... okay, do you mean... he teleports or...?"

- Eula (irritable): "ANDY! FINISH YOUR SENTENCES WITH THESE PEOPLE!"

- Dara: "Oof! Glad I'm not in their group, amirite? So testy with each other!"

- Andy: "Uh..."

- Gus: "I think ya gotta problem, son."

- Corin: "Grrr... okay. Fine. In what way does he go back and forth? What method does he use?"

- Gus: "I done told you a'ready."

- Bree: "Yeah. He hops, like he said."

- Freya: "And by 'hops' you mean...?"

- Eula (very frustrated): "Freya! *Ahem* She wants to know what method he uses to 'hop' - whether it be teleportation, or some sort of mount, or is lifted by a magical device, or what? What method does he use?"

- Dara (to the other locals): "These guys are a little thick, aren't they?"

* general mild agreement *

- Bree: "Like, this will be the third time we've told you. He hops."

- Eula: "... right. What does he use to hop?"

- Bree: "His legs. Duh. Why? Do you know anyone that hops without their legs? Because it's really creepy to watch him, but I think it'd be creepier to watch people who hop without their legs."

- Dara: "Are... are you people okay in the head? Do you need to lie down and rest?"

- Freya: "Rrrrrrrr..."

- Gus: "I think ma girls're right 'bout you folk..."

- Corin: "He just... hops."

- Gus: "We gotta tell ya this again?"

- Eula (quietly, clearly suffering from a headache): "... no. Thank you. We accept that he hops. It's just... unusual."

- Dara: "You're tellin' us!"

- Corin: "..."

- Eula (still quietly): "Yes. Thank you for your help. Is there anything else significant we should know?"

- Bree: "Oh! Yes! Let me tell you all about his creepy greasy hair!"

- Corin: "I believe I'm beginning to see the villain's point..."

(Yeah, I don't know why that one was so excessive or all in character. There it is.)

Vampire:
For this one, you can have a lot of fun with either the Addle-Minded template, or Repeatedly Drained template or both!

If you have a local liege-lord (an aristocrat or even weak-willed PC-classed character) who's become the the thrall of, say, his own gardener, you have a phenomenal bait-and-switch you can use. Have all sorts of clues pointing at the noble - ranging from his demand for local fair maidens (especially virgins) who come back drained and weak and bloody, with little memory of what happened.

Really it's just a commoner gardener or butler or cook or maid or whatever with something like a unique pendant of sleep (uses sleep 1/day or something) that is used (supplemented with drugs or poisons from the local herbalist) to make the experience heady and confusing and leave them with no or conflicting memories.

When the PCs finally slay the noble (probably a count for tradition or duke for autocratic power, but even a remote province with a lesser, but absolute, noble could suffice), he doesn't gaseous form, like they expect - they've just slain a living (if very eccentric) local lord! If they do eventually find out, they learn that they've effectively killed an innocent man! ... or something!

But who was the true mastermind...?

(That one can be kind of jerk-ish to your players, so be cautious when applying it.)

Hope those ideas help!


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Mr.Goblin wrote:
I have never understood why commoners and other npc classes like warrior are almost always 1st level.

The vast majority of the entire population is 1st level. Some may reach 2nd or 3rd level by the time they reach middle-age, but these are the "go-getters." The ones that are really driven are the ones that tend to get into PC classes and can reach 5th level or above.

This article provides a little perspective on how d20/3.x/Pathfinder mechanics relate to the "real world." Basically, once a character hits 5th-6th level, they are moving past the abilities of world record athletes, etc. So, even a 5th level human commoner smith (14 Str, 9 Dex, 11 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha; Craft (Armor) +15, Craft (Blacksmith) +6, Craft (Weapons) +15, Diplomacy +4, Handle Animal +4, Profession (Merchant) +6, Sense Motive +4; Skill Focus (Craft (Armor)), Skill Focus (Craft (Weapons)), plus two other feats; masterwork tools for Craft (Armor) and Craft (Weapons)) is a pretty successful craftsman; probably a renowned artisan in a given region.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

This isn't in the rules anywhere, but in my mind, you get 1 XP/day for life. Or, however much abstract experience a regular person accumulates in a day... we'll call that "1." So it would take a Commoner 5-6 years to accumulate enough XP to go to level 2. That seems about right to me, like learning your job. Then it would take another 8 years to get to level 3, and 11 more years to get to level 4. These are the peak years of her career, when she's getting quite good at her job. Depending on how grim and medieval your worlds is, 24 years might be the whole productive life-span of a peasant. If she lives to a ripe old age, maybe she gets to level 5, a true master of her trade. Now, that's just doing her job, day in and day out, for her whole life. That time when she killed a giant rat... extra XP. Was she conscripted into the queen's army for a year? Extra XP. And so on. But, yeah, your average Commoner (or Expert) is probably around level 2-3, depending on her age, and gets pretty close to maxing out around 5, maybe 6 if she's had an eventful life.


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Now, lookie here, a bunch of adventurers who think that the common man can't take down a red dragon like them lofty archmages and paladins.

Classist pigs.


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Umbral Reaver wrote:
Commoner is a 20 level class. Where are our level 20 commoners?

Irrigating the Sahara Desert so they can plant turnips.

Silver Crusade

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GM Ryan wrote:
I actually just started a Campaign with my group, they started off as Level 0 commoners, with -500 XP, it was truly exciting, they managed to make it to Level 1 and then were allowed to train into their classes. I am still amazed no one died, some how they managed to survive, through tactics and sheer luck.

I like this idea for roleplay and getting into character. The PCs really are useless. Is everything retrained? To be a PC you still need to specialise in stats. The party Elf Commoner has an unheard of Int 20, the party Half-Orc Commoner has Str 18, Con 16. We know where those PCs are going, the GM does - do you roleplay that the PCs themselves do?


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IMHO,
It really depends on your game world and how you perceive knowledge should be related to skills and thus levels.
And if you are trying to simulate a more life like game vs one that is not as much so (no knock on those that take the second approach or prizes to those who take the first) as both can be vastly different from one another and both can be fun to game in.

MDC


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Mosaic wrote:
This isn't in the rules anywhere, but in my mind, you get 1 XP/day for life. Or, however much abstract experience a regular person accumulates in a day... we'll call that "1." So it would take a Commoner 5-6 years to accumulate enough XP to go to level 2. That seems about right to me, like learning your job. Then it would take another 8 years to get to level 3, and 11 more years to get to level 4. These are the peak years of her career, when she's getting quite good at her job. Depending on how grim and medieval your worlds is, 24 years might be the whole productive life-span of a peasant. If she lives to a ripe old age, maybe she gets to level 5, a true master of her trade. Now, that's just doing her job, day in and day out, for her whole life. That time when she killed a giant rat... extra XP. Was she conscripted into the queen's army for a year? Extra XP. And so on. But, yeah, your average Commoner (or Expert) is probably around level 2-3, depending on her age, and gets pretty close to maxing out around 5, maybe 6 if she's had an eventful life.

So those 150-year-old level 1 elf PC wizards are around 50,000XP behind schedule... Not that those ever made much sense.

Doesn't it seem odd if every old woman in the village has about as many hit points as the entire party put together at the start of the game? Why are they hiring the PCs to fight the goblins when they could easily kill them themselves?


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Commoners are, well... Common. They don't have many exciting things in their lives. Maybe a fire or a bar brawl here and there, but that's about it. They live their daily lives and that's it. Remember how in most MMOs you can craft stuff that gives you about half a percent of EXP? Yeah, they're doing that. They also don't have a lot of ambition and don't really exert themselves. A really old Commoner might make it to level 3 simply because they're grinding that 5 EXP per day. Hell, they might even make it to Expert one day. It takes balls to become a PC class. Most PCs have a tragic backstory with dead parents or towns raided by Orcs, and that's precisely why they're PC classes. They've been pushed beyond their limits to become exceptionally good at what they do, otherwise they'd die.*

Point is, unless an NPC really pushes himself, they won't really see level 3 or beyond. As a level 1 PC, your perception of the world is a bit skewed as you're bopping Goblins on the head like it's no problem, but in theory, you once also were a Commoner, and had to face the same problems. NPCs are designed to not know the difference between a helmet and a chamber pot as to make you feel epic. Things you can do at level 1 by putting a single rank in something, those Commoners have to train their entire life for. Commoners are a necessary evil to give you the power fantasy of being absolutely awesome.

* Except for Sorcerers. Their grandparents had sex with a dragon once and that's why they can do magic. Screw Sorcerers.


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Bring to mind some interesting questions:
1) At what age do you become level 1 from level 0?
2) If you are in today's world would you gain a level from JR High? Or High School?

MDC


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Does the concept of Level 0 exist in Pathfinder?

Silver Crusade

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to my knowledge, no.


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So does Paizo still approve the NPC Gallery they host on their own reference website.
Pilgrim who is lvl 5 Commoner is the highest level commoner on that list.


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Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Bring to mind some interesting questions:

1) At what age do you become level 1 from level 0?
2) If you are in today's world would you gain a level from JR High? Or High School?

MDC

1. I think you start at level 1. Children just get the Young template.

2. My guess is that when you leave high school (or the Golarion equivalent) you lose the Young template and are considered an adult. Then the real grind begins.


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Yeah, that NPC Gallery is great: NPC Gallery

Queen: Aristocrat 12
King: Aristocrat 16


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Welcome to the wonderful flaws with a level based system.

It is a great system to give a sense of reward and achievement (a very popular system for video games), yet it doesn't really follow what we see in fictional epic tales from books, plays, and movies. That type of reward system is better represented by point experience systems like GURPs, White Wolf, Star Frontiers, Justifiers, and a myriad of other systems.

When applied to commoners or NPCs, the experience system really becomes wonky. In a world filled with vicious random encounter tables, and everything is a challenge to an insurmountable threat to a first level person, no one should be first level long. They either level up quickly, or wind up dead.

That's why it is best not to think about it and realize the game world is meant to cater to the 3-5 adventuring party and their antics. Don't think about why so many alpha predators in the world haven't wiped out civilization. Don't dwell on the economic upheavals adventurers cause buying magic items. Don't dwell on the irrational lifestyle of the average adventurer. Pay no attention to the people behind the curtain.

Silver Crusade

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Franz Lunzer wrote:

Yeah, that NPC Gallery is great: NPC Gallery

Queen: Aristocrat 12
King: Aristocrat 16

It's an abstraction, and it rather assumes the PCs only interact socially. The new Villain Codex considers such NPCs as people one might fight, and I don't think anyone has any NPC levels. In your royal example, the ones in Villain Codex are massively more powerful, the King is a bluffing Rogue, the Queen is a mirror-scrying Witch (she is awesome btw) and the advisor/vizier is of course an evil Mesmerist.

Other NPC royalty are very powerful too if they are more than just plot tokens. Queen Iliosa from Crimson Throne and Queen Galfrey from Wrath of the Righteous are both formidable and high level.

Then there is Queen Abrogail II...


They're not, they are however usually level 3 or lower.

Combat isn't the only way to gain experience, but when it comes to NPC classes anyone who rises above level 3 should probably have levels in a PC class, not NPC classes.

A warrior who has distinguished himself and is ready to level up to 4 should probably be "retrained" into a fighter.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
Doesn't it seem odd if every old woman in the village has about as many hit points as the entire party put together at the start of the game? Why are they hiring the PCs to fight the goblins when they could easily kill them themselves?

Nah. Level 5 Commoner = 5d6 hp. Basic Stats means probably a Con of 10, so no bonus hp. She's "old" by now, so -3 Con penalty = -1 hp/HD. She's lucky to have 13 hp. And no weapon or armor proficiencies.

But the elf thing, yeah. Either elves gain experience more slowly, or they hibernate occasionally, or old elves do accumulate a lot more XP.


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CraziFuzzy wrote:
Where are you getting the idea that commoners are only 1st level? I figure that if a person is a capable member of society, they are likely level 1 for age 15-20, level 2 21-27, level 3 28-32, level 4 33-and on. Town elders or the top merchant in an area, for instance, would be level 5. I don't see using NPC Classes above 5 typically, but those levels seem appropriate.

Thats about what I do as well.

I recall a thread somewhere about "what is a 2oth level commoner", or something like that.

As for elves, I always thought elves could only retain so much info.


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I remember we had a game about a year ago where the party set off to kill the Tarrasque. They started at level 20 and got normal wealth per level and all classes could be chosen. One of the players chose to play a level 20 commoner (a very angry barmaid whose bar had been crushed by the Tarrasque) and she spent all her money on magic adamantium beer mugs.

Silver Crusade

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Euryale wrote:
I remember we had a game about a year ago where the party set off to kill the Tarrasque. They started at level 20 and got normal wealth per level and all classes could be chosen. One of the players chose to play a level 20 commoner (a very angry barmaid whose bar had been crushed by the Tarrasque) and she spent all her money on magic adamantium beer mugs.

Hmm, how'd it work out?


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Rysky wrote:
Euryale wrote:
I remember we had a game about a year ago where the party set off to kill the Tarrasque. They started at level 20 and got normal wealth per level and all classes could be chosen. One of the players chose to play a level 20 commoner (a very angry barmaid whose bar had been crushed by the Tarrasque) and she spent all her money on magic adamantium beer mugs.
Hmm, how'd it work out?

They probably did the most damage to it (most of the party by the point of meeting the Tarrasque were split up), but they still died (along with everyone else but the sorcerer who teleported away)

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Level 20 commoner:

If you ever played a console RPG - where the starting town has low level random encounters, but as you progress across the map, things get tougher and tougher - but those tougher areas still have towns. Eventually you reach some area blighted by the influence of demonic forces or invading dimensions, with random encounters that could smack down early game bosses in a single hit. But there's always one last town for buying endgame equipment and resting up in this area.

The farmers that live there, in that town. They're the 20th level commoners. 1st level farmer has to deal with insects eating his crops. 20th level farmer has to deal with marauding balors and rain comprised of liquefied souls of the damned.

Silver Crusade

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ryric wrote:

Level 20 commoner:

If you ever played a console RPG - where the starting town has low level random encounters, but as you progress across the map, things get tougher and tougher - but those tougher areas still have towns. Eventually you reach some area blighted by the influence of demonic forces or invading dimensions, with random encounters that could smack down early game bosses in a single hit. But there's always one last town for buying endgame equipment and resting up in this area.

The farmers that live there, in that town. They're the 20th level commoners. 1st level farmer has to deal with insects eating his crops. 20th level farmer has to deal with marauding balors and rain comprised of liquefied souls of the damned.

Breath of Fire 2 all over again.


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I'm kinda digging the idea of a mythic commoner now. Like, one that accidentally stumbles into mythic-dom. Could really play him up as a comedic character; bumbling, clueless - kind of a Mr. Bean, perhaps, who just *happens* to touch a fallen meteor that grants him mythic powers. Why is he still a commoner? Because he's too inept to actually possess the drive or awareness that he can actually *apply* his power and ability in a meaningful way (and so never retrains or multiclasses.)

And yet, he's much stronger than mere appearances, being bolstered by his mythic abilities. Strong enough - and clumsy/inept/unlucky enough - to be *constantly* getting himself into trouble. Trouble which - against logic - he continues to manage to scrape through.

And so he levels. And levels. And manages to awkwardly find himself in mythic trials, which he bests.

And then finally, someday, there's this totally clueless, bumbling, frightened, ridiculous level 20 mythic 10 commoner with no self-awareness of what he even is.

I mean, you could see this in a Mr. Bean-esque character, right?

He'd have things like toughness, endurance, diehard, dodge, mobility, a legendary item.

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