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The Sczarni are only a small group (group, not an ethnicity) out of the entirety of Varisians, who make up a good 1/3 - 1/2 of the population of the continent they are on. They're basically the mafia, yeah, but they're a small number, not the entire race. And even then, mafia=bad, yeah, but i don't really see that as a racist and cartoonish caricature.Beyond that, while there's a stereotype of Romani as thieves, it's very different from the organized crime approach of the Sczarni.
That said, I can see how it would bother some. Wouldn't go as far as "massively racist" or "cartoonish", but maybe not the best choice.
*nods*
I know they were a joinable faction in PFS for awhile but out of that I've never interacted with any of them in any of the APs or Modules I've played, compared to all of the Non-Szcarni Varisians I've met. If the Szcarni were the majority or only Varisians we met then we would have a problem.
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Even in game, most Varisians dislike the Sczarni because of that stereotype. It is acknowledged as unfair. Chelaxians dismiss Varisians because of equating them with the unscrupulous Sczarni.
Rather than promoting a racist stereotype, it is quickly pointed out that they are not representative of Varisians but due to the unfortunate way racism works, this group's behaviour lets a more dominant group, Cheliax have antipathy.
If anything, it is Cheliax who are shown as having the problem. In that same geographical area they also hate the Shoanti because they are supposedly dim witted Barbarians. Cheliax, lest we forget, are responsible for the Hellknight Order of the Nail who are explicitly pointed out as massively racist imperialists.
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Maybe they'll allow Diplomancy options?
We'll see. But it's just typical for me to find the "what would happen if the heroes fail" scenarios much more interesting than the opposite. So it may have something to do with Eberron appealing so much to me. Because it has basically "humans failed big time and now the PCs have to handle the fallout" written all over it.
Still, Golarion taking a more traditional approach certainly doesn't translate into it being less inclusive. And if I remember correctly, the backlash against Paizo being inclusive started right from the start with Sir Jasper Korvaski and Cyrdak Drokkus and with Paizo deciding to make half of the Iconics female. That was already too much for some people.
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I also want to add that a lot of Sinti, Yenish or Lovari are not really a fan of being called 'Romani'
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Okay, just a little more.
Eberron kept alignments because they were obliged too - it's part of the core rules for D&D 3.x
Eberron kept deities because they were obliged to - it's part of the core rules for D&D 3.x
Even "Advanced" D&D Dopplegangers are as "genderfluid" as any Changeling. So not "progressive" IMO.
I felt it was progressive at that time because of how the gods and how alignment got handled. Which was not typical D&D. The way they portrayed the standard races, the monster nations, the way they handled magic, the Kalashtar, the Warforged. The pulp noir feeling.
All things I hadn't seen in D&D before which I really think brought a lot of fresh air to the old D&D tropes. I still think that it's a shame that Eberron basically fell victim to 4E's setting policy, because there was still a lot of stuff to explore.
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I also want to add that a lot of Sinti, Yenish or Lovari are not really a fan of being called 'Romani'Yeah, I'm at least vaguely aware of that. Is there an acceptable overall term?
from my expierence it depends who you ask. I know Lovari who are totally fine with being called Romani, I know others who aren't and would rather be called Gypsies, but all of them prefer to be called Lovari. I know a guy who is Sinti who was really offended when I called him Romani and when I apologized and asked if I should say Gypsy instead he almost hit me (which I can totally understand).
I now jokingly use the term 'RSLY community' or, when we're in a relaxed mood 'travelling people', but I guess if someone else said that without a clearly friendly, joking intend and context that would be trouble too (again, understandably so.
Romani, while not really inclusive for a lot of Sinti, Lovari or Yenish, might be the best term, before you ask them how they would refer to themselves and then, of course, go with that.
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Eberron is pretty eurocentric. Of course, so is Golarion, just to a slightly lesser extent. Eberron is really Eurocentric, which is sort of understandable, since it's kinda about post-WWI-era Europe.
I dislike the idea of making it a contest, but I do think it's interesting to look at the strengths and weaknesses. For instance, is the idea of an inhuman race without a gender really that "progressive"? That seems absurd to me.
I would say Eberron is more progressive on a simple standpoint of themes. It has far fewer "good vs. evil" conflicts—aside from the true abominations, war is pretty much a universal evil that even the goblins and orcs kinda want to avoid. The greatest villains aren't the spooky necromancers and ugly hobgoblins, they're the people who want more war, be they goblins or fair-haired clerics. Eberron is all about racial and cultural tension, and the horrors of any conflict. Hell, even when you're fighting quori and daelkyr, it usually f$@%s you up just as bad as them.
Eberron has very progressive themes. Those themes define the setting.
Golarion, meanwhile, is very progressive on a standpoint of representation. There's a ton of diversity in the nations and races depicted, and LGBTAIQ characters are generally accepted without question. However, the themes are pretty ambivalent to social justice, for the most part. Quests aren't about moral grays and social tension—they're about thrashing goblins, shooting aliens, and killing lots and lots of Universally Evil Monsters. When they are about social tension, they actually often drop the ball, as in the second chapter of Serpent's Skull. And it's still usually more a backdrop than the focus, like a story about Indiana Jones punching Nazis (obviously anti-Nazi, but the theme is still pretty much "good guy punching bad guys").
Golarion is diverse pulp fiction—exploitative, violent, destructive, but representative. Eberron is homogeneous social commentary—thoughtful, complex, sympathetic, but still mostly a bunch of cishet white people doing stuff. Obviously, that's a huge simplification, but it's what it kinda boils down to.
By the way, something being eurocentric and something being "pulpy" aren't objective bads. The point of this line of critique is more analysis and thought, not just branding something as good or non-good.
I also want to add that a lot of Sinti, Yenish or Lovari are not really a fan of being called 'Romani'Yeah, I'm at least vaguely aware of that. Is there an acceptable overall term?from my expierence it depends who you ask. I know Lovari who are totally fine with being called Romani, I know others who aren't and would rather be called Gypsies, but all of them prefer to be called Lovari. I know a guy who is Sinti who was really offended when I called him Romani and when I apologized and asked if I should say Gypsy instead he almost hit me (which I can totally understand).
I now jokingly use the term 'RSLY community' or, when we're in a relaxed mood 'travelling people', but I guess if someone else said that without a clearly friendly, joking intend and context that would be trouble too (again, understandably so.
Romani, while not really inclusive for a lot of Sinti, Lovari or Yenish, might be the best term, before you ask them how they would refer to themselves and then, of course, go with that.
So, basically no. There is no inclusive term.
Obviously when talking to someone or some specific group, find out what they'd prefer, but in a situation like this where we're discussing the group the Varisians are based on, there's no commonly accepted term.
at least not that I'm aware of
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A friend of mine who backed the thing on KS has received PDFs of the work in progress, but not yet the definitive work, nor his dead tree book.Been trying to find the 2nd Edition somewhere since it was mentioned at a panel at GenCon. Has it gone live?Golarion vs Eberron -- Which is more progressive?Blue Rose. :)
(But Golarion is more active in its inclusive themes than Eberron. Eberron is more "modern" though.)
Yep. I'm a Kickstarter backer as well. For those that may not know, it uses the Fantasy Age ruleset.
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I think that's a somewhat different angle. It can certainly be fresh and different from standard D&D without being progressive or inclusive in a political/social sense.
That's the way I see it as well, so I agree with you on that. It's just that I don't want to dismiss all points made by Werebat just because he mixed them up in his original post.
And one thing that I'd really like to know is, why Werebat (as, I take it, a non-caucasian earthling) feels better represented by the Eberron humanoids in Darguun than by the actual existing culture-equivalents of his ethnicity in the Golarion setting. I have some ideas about it, but I'd rather not make any wild guesses.
So Werebat, if you're reading this, I'm honestly interested in this topic.
Ignoring any and all of the representations of Varisians
Well why should I when the mustached twirling evil mafioso aspect of the culture is what Paizo wanted to promote and people to see?
The Sczarni are only a small group (group, not an ethnicity) out of the entirety of Varisians, who make up a good 1/3 - 1/2 of the population of the continent they are on. They're basically the mafia, yeah, but they're a small number, not the entire race. And even then, mafia=bad, yeah, but i don't really...
They really aren't small group though at least with the way they are written. In fact their influence is so big that they almost started wars which is kind of bizarre.
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Ignoring any and all of the representations of Varisians
Well why should I when the mustached twirling evil mafioso aspect of the culture is what Paizo wanted to promote and people to see?
The first Varisian we saw, the one that introduced us to Varisian culture, the one who is seen the most is Seoni, though. A lawful neutral character. You can't get more lawful than lawful neutral, so she's definatly NOT a mustached twirling evil mafioso.
She is what most people would first think of if they read or hear Varisian.Niska Mvashti, probably the second Varisian most encountered (if they started with RotRL AP)is a Neutral historian and seer. "Even in her old age, she still enjoys walks in the forest with regional druids who come to town regularly to lead her on her Outings." (James Jacobs. (2007). Sandpoint. Burnt Offerings, p. 67) NOT a mustached twirling evil mafioso either.
I don't get where you get the impression from that Szcarni are the promoted faction of the Varisians?
They focus on that because the average Varisian is a good, hardworking citizen, and it's hard to write stories about those due to there not being any conflict.
I feel like Paizo has done a good job actually writing conflict involving good hardworking citizens. Possibly good hardworking Varisian citizens but I've never been find a definitive source about the Foxgloves.
The first Varisian we saw, the one that introduced us to Varisian culture, the one who is seen the most is Seoni, though. A lawful neutral character. You can't get more lawful than lawful neutral, so she's definatly NOT a mustached twirling evil mafioso.
She is what most people would first think of if they read or hear Varisian.
How would you actually now that from a single picture? The first Varisian you really would ever get to know extensively personality wise if you aren't a huge Pathfinder fan is Szcarni.
I don't get where you get the impression from that Szcarni are the promoted faction of the Varisians?
Because Seoni doesn't come up in an introductory scenario meant for new people of the game to play and get accustomed to Pathfinder as a setting?
Do they really focus on the Sczarni that much? I know they were a PFS faction, but beyond that?
This could be the odd case of having four different development teams.
Which scenario?
I'm not a "huge PF fan", but I'm aware of Seoni and actually made a Varisian character for my first PF character - in an short lived RotRL campaign - no Sczarni connections.
I've never actually run into Sczarni as far as I recall in any games I've played or adventures I've read through.
First Steps. Part of the problem is that the person running it hammed it up to ridiculous manners immediate reaction was,"Why is the Italian Mafia a part of this setting?" I wonder if the Sczarni are one of those things like the Scarab Sages where its predominantly a Pathfinder Society toy to play with.
EDIT:Just as a side note if the Foxgloves are Varisian (Note: The material I have doesn't say) then they would count as my favorite Varisian NPCs. They are just a bunch of business women with horrendously bad circumstances.
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The Sczarni don't seem that much like "the Italian Mafia" to me... but then, I may be the only one who still remembers that the Council of Thieves Adventure Path was a thing. ^_^
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Always preferred Greyhawk to Eberron.
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Which scenario?
I'm not a "huge PF fan", but I'm aware of Seoni and actually made a Varisian character for my first PF character - in an short lived RotRL campaign - no Sczarni connections.
I've never actually run into Sczarni as far as I recall in any games I've played or adventures I've read through.First Steps. Part of the problem is that the person running it hammed it up to ridiculous manners immediate reaction was,"Why is the Italian Mafia a part of this setting?" I wonder if the Sczarni are one of those things like the Scarab Sages where its predominantly a Pathfinder Society toy to play with.
EDIT:
Just as a side note if the Foxgloves are Varisian (Note: The material I have doesn't say) then they would count as my favorite Varisian NPCs. They are just a bunch of business women with horrendously bad circumstances.
What, you mean like the Halfling mafia in Sharn?
I'm a bit with everyone else, here. The only AP I've ever played in that's had any amount of Sczarni influence has been Shattered Star, and the Sczarni are pretty much represented as outcasts from their native culture rather than paragons of it.
In the meantime, our adventures have encountered far more non-Sczarni affiliated Varisians.
So, sure, you can ding Golarion for that if you like, but then you have to ding Eberron for it, too, because they also have the nomadic river-folk turned crime family and they also made them non-human.
Anyway, back on topic - Golarion has my vote for inclusivity. Kobold Cleaver kind of said it best that Eberron thematically has more going on, and that's a result of setting and tone, but Golarion actually has much more representation, especially of non-euro centric cultures.
Just as a side note if the Foxgloves are Varisian (Note: The material I have doesn't say) then they would count as my favorite Varisian NPCs. They are just a bunch of business women with horrendously bad circumstances.
Iesha Foxglove is.
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Well why should I when the mustached twirling evil mafioso aspect of the culture is what Paizo wanted to promote and people to see?
Ignoring any and all of the representations of Varisians
I haven't read anything so willfully incorrect about a game setting in quite a while.
Let's talk about the first time people saw "Varisians" presented as an ethnicity: In the 2007 Rise of the Runelords Player's Guide.
Varisian: Passionate and fiercely independent, Varisians lend their name to their homeland, Varisia. While these clannish wanderers can be found throughout the world, nowhere are larger populations found than in the land of their ancestors. Insular and adhering to an ancient, nomadic way of life, extended families of Varisians form wandering communities, traveling wherever fate directs them. Varisians don’t believe in claiming land and thus see no hardship in their nomadism. While nature provides for most of their needs, these wanderers often visit the cities and towns of settled people to trade art and curios from their travels, earn coin by entertaining and performing small jobs, and sometimes to con and steal from the unwary. Varisians are also known for their unique mysticism. Some believe their traditional dances provide insights into the future and their family elders can hear the voices of the long dead. The typical Varisian possesses deep olive skin and hair that ranges from black to auburn, often worn long by both men and women. Customary tattooing leads most to exhibit complex patterns and symbols significantly different from those worn by the Shoanti who share their homeland. As wanderers and—often—entertainers, Varisian dress tends toward extremes, from functional garb fit for traveling to wildly impractical dress meant to accentuate their dancing, exotic tattoos, and naturally fit forms.
I see no "mustached[sic] twirling evil Mafioso" here. I see a single line about the odd bit of opportunistic thievery and bilking- which fits Paizo's wider pattern.
If you put all the pages of stuff about the Scarzni on one side of the scale, and everything else about Varisian culture on the other, the Scarzni material is going to be sky-friggin'-high from the counterweight.
Varisian good nature comes up in most mentions of Desna, in Koya Mvashti and Seoni's stats (they're neutral-aligned but explicitly heroic in terms of narrative role), in the repeated statements that the poor treatment of Varisians by Chelish colonizers is crapsack-awful, in the important sympathetic narrative role of Zellara in Curse of the Crimson Throne, and on and on and on and on.
You're apparently fixated upon their use in a single scenario and ignoring the overwhelming majority of what Paizo has published about them.
Your reasons for doing so are elusive.
You're apparently fixated upon their use in a single scenario and ignoring the overwhelming majority of what Paizo has published about them.
Your reasons for doing so are elusive.
Its actually hundreds of scenarios and in the case of the mustached twirling mafioso you have to spend money. The reason why I focus on that one scenario is because it was my first introduction to the setting as a whole.
EDIT:That is also ignoring the other problematic aspects too like the one NPC whose defining characteristic of up until the past few years was evil person into bdsm.
It bears noting that PFS is one of the most common sites of Paizo failures.
Especially the early scenarios - I give The City of Strangers as wide a berth as possible.
Right I was prepared for that scenario because someone warned me about it. That scenario is pretty bad as a genderqueer person.
Would it be better if the mafia villains were a highly inclusive gang? Should we stop using the word 'mafia' because it's racist towards Sicilians?
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Would it be better if the mafia villains were a highly inclusive gang? Should we stop using the word 'mafia' because it's racist towards Sicilians?
No and most Sicilians would laugh at being told to be be poltically correct about a organization that is completely opposite of that.
It's funny how those who point out certain stuff as racist. I'm suprised not one accused Wotc of Italian cultural appropriation because the gnomes in Eberron are essentially a Mafia gang. Or cultural appropriation of Romani culture because of Varisians. I guess posters are going to cherry pick about what offends them. I suppose.
It's funny how those who point out certain stuff as racist. I'm suprised not one accused Wotc of Italian cultural appropriation because the gnomes in Eberron are essentially a Mafia gang. Or cultural appropriation of Romani culture because of Varisians. I guess posters are going to cherry pick about what offends them. I suppose.
Well if you really want me to I can point out how the gnomes in Eberron are racist though where the hell you are getting Mafia from is freaking bizarre unless that is a typo.
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Would it be better if the mafia villains were a highly inclusive gang? Should we stop using the word 'mafia' because it's racist towards Sicilians?No and most Sicilians would laugh at being told to be be poltically correct about a organization that is completely opposite of that.
It's funny how those who point out certain stuff as racist. I'm suprised not one accused Wotc of Italian cultural appropriation because the gnomes in Eberron are essentially a Mafia gang. Or cultural appropriation of Romani culture because of Varisians. I guess posters are going to cherry pick about what offends them. I suppose.
Some people are just determined to be offended by something, and even a company that tries as hard as Paizo just can't win. [Fictional Culture] too similar to [Real Culture]? Cultural appropriation. [Fictional Culture] not similar enough to [Real Culture]? Misrepresentation. Nothing resembling [Real Culture]? Lack of representation (usually followed by accusations of Eurocentrism).
The only good response is to ignore them.
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These are false dichotomies designed to quash a pretty lively discussion. A pity. Things were going so well.
A good hint, though: If you actually want to "ignore" them, try not coming to post smart-alack remarks on their threads.
These are false dichotomies designed to quash a pretty lively discussion. A pity. Things were going so well.
I'll agree on both counts, but probably not for the same reasons.
A good hint, though: If you actually want to "ignore" them, try not coming to post smart-alack remarks on their threads.
Is this one of "their" threads?
It's one of "them". As I would have thought you'd have noticed.
because the gnomes in Eberron are essentially a Mafia gang.
are they too? I was under they impression only Halflings were. Well, I guess one just can't trust short people in Eberron
because the gnomes in Eberron are essentially a Mafia gang.are they too? I was under they impression only Halflings were. Well, I guess one just can't trust short people in Eberron
No they are actually a weird mix of soviet Russia and conspiracy theories about the Jewish people making them more racist than just Mafia gang. I legitimately think the person meant to type halfling because the fluff isn't even close.
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They really aren't small group though at least with the way they are written. In fact their influence is so big that they almost started wars which is kind of bizarre.
They're a small group per capita.
Do they really focus on the Sczarni that much? I know they were a PFS faction, but beyond that?
No, they get brought up almost not at all.
First Steps. Part of the problem is that the person running it hammed it up to ridiculous manners immediate reaction was,"Why is the Italian Mafia a part of this setting?" I wonder if the Sczarni are one of those things like the Scarab Sages where its predominantly a Pathfinder Society toy to play with.
Yeah, I think that's where the disconnect is. The Sczarni aren't a big thing in the setting as a whole. Certainly not to nearly the degree you're implying. They exist, but come up seldom and are very much in the minority.
PFS is apparently a bit of a different story...but also neither canonical to the setting as a whole, nor written/edited by the same people as setting materials. Using PFS to say things about the setting as a whole is thus extremely dubious in many ways.
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Eberron is far more inclusive of race and culture than Golarion, regardless of "intent".
There is no question that Paizo really TRIED to be inclusive, or progressive, or whatever adjective you want to use to mean "accepting of and welcoming to people with traits outside of the mainstream".
That isn't what I asked about, though. I asked about which setting really WAS more inclusive, not which one TRIED to be more inclusive.
WRT the LGBTQ community, Golarion offers officially LGBTQ NPCs in positions of power and authority. WRT women, Golarion offers female NPCs in positions of power and authority.
But Eberron does that too. Changelings are by their very nature physically genderfluid, able to become male or female, cis-gender or trans-gender, or anything along a whole spectrum of sex and gender, at will. Warforged are asexual beings (and I am not certain that even Golarion has featured any overtly asexual beings in positions of power and authority) who (mostly) lack gender.
Meanwhile, Eberron's version of the Catholic Church is run by a young woman, the Blood of Vol was founded by a female, and there are several nations and Houses led by females.
So these are mostly a wash.
Now imagine that you are a foreigner, a non-White foreigner, sitting down to play an RPG.
Both campaign settings let you play humans of various ethnicities and cultures. While some of these may superficially resemble real-world ethnicities and cultures, none are exact matches, so this is a wash.
But look more closely. One of the campaign settings features humanoids -- people -- whose identity as people is so denigrated that they seem to exist simply to be killed by the heroes, their lives, land, and property forfeit to members of the PC races by virtue of their race. These people have little or no culture to speak of, no history of import, no contributions to the world they live in. They are "critters" who exist to be slain by their racial superiors.
The other setting has those same...
Depending on how you look at it either case can be made. From a "fantasyland" view I would say Eberron. From an real life or meta aspect I would say Golarion.
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Okay, just a little more.
Eberron kept alignments because they were obliged too - it's part of the core rules for D&D 3.x
Eberron kept deities because they were obliged to - it's part of the core rules for D&D 3.x
Even "Advanced" D&D Dopplegangers are as "genderfluid" as any Changeling. So not "progressive" IMO.
The way you can tell is that none of Eberron's changes are the kind that have produced the backlash from recidivist players the way Paizo's have.
That's how you can tell if something is truly progressive... see if there is any backlash.LOL no! There is
nolittle backlash because so few play in Eberron to begin with.Golarion certainly isn't flawless, but I like its approach better than "You want to play someone from a traditional Arabic-style culture? Sure, our Arabs are lizardfolk. You can play one of them."It's called production value. Baker's home campaign had very little of it and they didn't spend much time polishing it for publication when it became an official campaign setting. Golarian has had far more effort put into it.
Dragonlance /?
How is "we don't know if the Gods even exist" progressive?
The published version is not exactly his home edition. That was a large part of it, but WoTC changed a lot of things he wanted to keep.
Time /= Value.Example: I am sure Jason and James will on average come up with a better product for Pathfinder than I will 9/10 times, and not take nearly as long while doing so.
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What is the problem with City of Strangers?
Depending on how the GM handles it, there's a character that could be horrifically caricatured and exceptionally offensive to a given subset of Pathfinder players.
I've seen and heard this discussion once or twice before, from different approaches, and I suspect it is more like the Sczarni above... someone over-played it even moreso than uneducated staff trying to get a thing into print, and it turned into the sort of nightmare that Paizo took as a lesson and learned from.
Or...
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Thanks. I looked up the City of Strangers thing.
In his short description nowhere does it say he is trans or has anything other than a cis identity. He just seems like a funny, gay hooker. Drag artists are a real thing in gay culture, it is broad and vaudevillian but can be played lightly with a sensitive GM.
I don't have a problem with him, but it is down to the portrayal by the GM. Homophobic tittering won't work, but playing him as a confident information-giving NPC and a bit of drag amusement just give the game colour.
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are they too? I was under they impression only Halflings were. Well, I guess one just can't trust short people in Eberron
Sorry my mistake. My Eberron books are in storage. I meant halflings not gnomes.
No they are actually a weird mix of soviet Russia and conspiracy theories about the Jewish people making them more racist than just Mafia gang. I legitimately think the person meant to type halfling because the fluff isn't even close.
I suppose it's now time to accuse Wotc of both pre-Soviet Russia and Jewish cultural appropriation. I'm not being serious. It just seems recently that some posters rather than say they find something racist and/or offensive decided to look up some of the cool buzzwords everyone is using and toss them into anything and everything they find offensive imo.