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I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reachI also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other full bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.So you are a greatsword build, the baddie is 20ft away and fighting an ally. Are you whipping out your bow for this? Really? Cause this is the situation where the bad is out of reach. Or are you moving and getting one attack? Either way you do your turn and your team finished him off before your next turn, now the next baddie in this fight is again 20ft away from you and attacking your wizard. Are you going to keep using your bow, or move and use the greatsword?
The needing to move every round or so to get to a bad guy is the problem BNW is talking about. Barbarians, druids, alchemists, Mediums, Vigilantes, etc. all have pounce or a way to move and full attack. Some really low levels, other get it around 12 and a few wait till 20, but most weapon users get a way to move and full attack. Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
What's frustrating is that it's a feature of the system that literally only impacts martials, and the removal of it would do a lot to improve martials in general. It'd make Magi stupid powerful though... maybe you still have to spend a full round if you wanna Spell Combat?
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What's frustrating is that it's a feature of the system that literally only impacts martials, and the removal of it would do a lot to improve martials in general. It'd make Magi stupid powerful though... maybe you still have to spend a full round if you wanna Spell Combat?I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reachI also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other full bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.So you are a greatsword build, the baddie is 20ft away and fighting an ally. Are you whipping out your bow for this? Really? Cause this is the situation where the bad is out of reach. Or are you moving and getting one attack? Either way you do your turn and your team finished him off before your next turn, now the next baddie in this fight is again 20ft away from you and attacking your wizard. Are you going to keep using your bow, or move and use the greatsword?
The needing to move every round or so to get to a bad guy is the problem BNW is talking about. Barbarians, druids, alchemists, Mediums, Vigilantes, etc. all have pounce or a way to move and full attack. Some really low levels, other get it around 12 and a few wait till 20, but most weapon users get a way to move and full attack. Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
Magus already has ways to move and full attack anyway thanks to their spell list, so it's not a huge issue.
What's frustrating is that it's a feature of the system that literally only impacts martials, and the removal of it would do a lot to improve martials in general. It'd make Magi stupid powerful though... maybe you still have to spend a full round if you wanna Spell Combat?
I'm actually curious about this. On the one hand I dislike the overall hit to "power" that reliance on full attacks is. However, without it, I don't see a way to differentiate a mobile martial character vs a non-mobile one, other than movement speed.
For example, take the concept of a character that uses spring attack regularly (or bladed dash to equivalent effect). The idea being the character moves in, strikes, and moves out of reprisal range as one move. If pounce or equivalent features are regularly available, such a character becomes impossible to build. Every martial would be "run up and full attack" in varying flavors.
I think that preserving the options for different fighting styles (such as one focused on spring attack) is wise, and if "move and full attack" becomes widely available....I don't see a way to do that...does anyone else?
Vital strike is SO CLOSE but so far.
Vital strike is SO CLOSE but so far.
But, imagine that vital strike could be used in combination with spring attack (or similar). And imagine that it scaled naturally (and devastating strike did as well) rather than requiring a feat tree. And imagine double slice was something like "can swing with both weapons as a standard action" that could be used with other single attack routines (such as spring attack). And now you're looking at a fighting style that sacrifices damage for mobility, and actually feels mobile (and gains benefits for it, because foes that rely on full attacks lose damage if they're not similarly built).
Vital strike is SO CLOSE but so far.But, imagine that vital strike could be used in combination with spring attack (or similar). And imagine that it scaled naturally (and devastating strike did as well) rather than requiring a feat tree. And imagine double slice was something like "can swing with both weapons as a standard action" that could be used with other single attack routines (such as spring attack). And now you're looking at a fighting style that sacrifices damage for mobility, and actually feels mobile (and gains benefits for it, because foes that rely on full attacks lose damage if they're not similarly built).
Thats what i mean, change it to work with something other than greatswords or standard move + attack action and it becomes a pretty solid feat chain.
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What's frustrating is that it's a feature of the system that literally only impacts martials, and the removal of it would do a lot to improve martials in general. It'd make Magi stupid powerful though... maybe you still have to spend a full round if you wanna Spell Combat?I'm actually curious about this. On the one hand I dislike the overall hit to "power" that reliance on full attacks is. However, without it, I don't see a way to differentiate a mobile martial character vs a non-mobile one, other than movement speed.
For example, take the concept of a character that uses spring attack regularly (or bladed dash to equivalent effect). The idea being the character moves in, strikes, and moves out of reprisal range as one move. If pounce or equivalent features are regularly available, such a character becomes impossible to build. Every martial would be "run up and full attack" in varying flavors.
I think that preserving the options for different fighting styles (such as one focused on spring attack) is wise, and if "move and full attack" becomes widely available....I don't see a way to do that...does anyone else?
This is a very good point. My solution? Allow Spring attack to have you be able to make your iterative attacks during your movement. Boom, you go from a move-then-attack character and are now someone who can mix up the battlefield. It invalidates a couple of feats and abilities, but all the ones I can think of are completely optional and would be entirely covered by this system.
Either that or we make Vital Strike much better as your suggest, and have it apply to all once-a-round attacks that aren't spells, such as Spring Attack.
Hmm, either is good by me, so long as we fix the problem!
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I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reachI also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other full bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.So you are a greatsword build, the baddie is 20ft away and fighting an ally. Are you whipping out your bow for this? Really? Cause this is the situation where the bad is out of reach. Or are you moving and getting one attack? Either way you do your turn and your team finished him off before your next turn, now the next baddie in this fight is again 20ft away from you and attacking your wizard. Are you going to keep using your bow, or move and use the greatsword?
The needing to move every round or so to get to a bad guy is the problem BNW is talking about. Barbarians, druids, alchemists, Mediums, Vigilantes, etc. all have pounce or a way to move and full attack. Some really low levels, other get it around 12 and a few wait till 20, but most weapon users get a way to move and full attack. Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
Well given that Fighters currently make for the best ranged/switch hitting builds... just make a ranged or switch hitting build. Between Empty Quiver Style and the love thrown weapons have gotten, what you describe is something the Fighter can deal with quite effevtively.
I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reachI also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other full bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.So you are a greatsword build, the baddie is 20ft away and fighting an ally. Are you whipping out your bow for this? Really? Cause this is the situation where the bad is out of reach. Or are you moving and getting one attack? Either way you do your turn and your team finished him off before your next turn, now the next baddie in this fight is again 20ft away from you and attacking your wizard. Are you going to keep using your bow, or move and use the greatsword?
The needing to move every round or so to get to a bad guy is the problem BNW is talking about. Barbarians, druids, alchemists, Mediums, Vigilantes, etc. all have pounce or a way to move and full attack. Some really low levels, other get it around 12 and a few wait till 20, but most weapon users get a way to move and full attack. Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
If that's a serious strike against the Fighter, though, then it's also a strike against not only every class that doesn't have a "pounce" option, but every character who doesn't use a "pounce" option or every character who doesn't have it yet. It would imply, for example, that any Barbarian who doesn't go Rage-pounce is shoddy goods, and that Barbarians in general are lousy until level 10 when they can get it.
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Yes, have you not been around to hear the complaining about this? You need to full attack to do your damage, so getting ways to full attack more often is good.
Pouncing is one of the main reasons the barb is a DPR king.
It's a strike against weapon combat and classes that can't bypass it.
but there are many ways, pounce, flying kicks, pummeling charge, outslug style, sudden charge... to let classes full attack more often. Fighter is left out of this party.
Pouncing is one of the main reasons the barb is a DPR king.
The highest DPR builds in the game include archers (fighters are among the best archers) and the two-handed fighter using a standard action attack (~500 DPR as a standard action without any shenanigans).
500 damage as a standard action? How?
500 damage as a standard action? How?
At 19th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter may make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon at a –5 penalty. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical threat. Special weapon abilities that activate only on a critical hit do not activate if this critical hit is confirmed.
At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
Auto-crit with a x5 weapon while benefitting from things like Greater Power Attack.
Pouncing is one of the main reasons the barb is a DPR king.
It's a strike against weapon combat and classes that can't bypass it.
but there are many ways, pounce, flying kicks, pummeling charge, outslug style, sudden charge... to let classes full attack more often. Fighter is left out of this party.
Eldritch Guardian can kind of do it with coordinated charge. Combine EG with Mutation Warrior and you can even do flying charges.
Eldritch Guardian can kind of do it with coordinated charge. Combine EG with Mutation Warrior and you can even do flying charges.Pouncing is one of the main reasons the barb is a DPR king.
It's a strike against weapon combat and classes that can't bypass it.
but there are many ways, pounce, flying kicks, pummeling charge, outslug style, sudden charge... to let classes full attack more often. Fighter is left out of this party.
Fighter can certainly afford the 4-5 feats necessary to get a scaling mount + Mounted Skirmisher.
It is something fighter excel at, feat intensive builds.
Auto-crit with a x5 weapon while benefitting from things like Greater Power Attack.
Simple math has me coming up with 300ish, but I'm bound to be missing things.
5 from scythe
24 from greater power attack
4 from weapon training
4 from weapon specializations
5 from +5 weapon
15 from 30 str
...what am I missing? Even an extra 10 on top of that from "other sources" is only 335.
Still, this is a separate problem I have with Pathfinder: the absurd number inflation. How can one balance between two fighters when one outs out 350 damage a round, and another puts out, on average, say 100? And that's within the single class, not looking at the quite literal infinite damage some casters can do.
Gloves of dueling makes weapon training +6, focused weapon makes the scythe a 2d8 rather than 2d4 Beyond that im not sure.
If that's a serious strike against the Fighter, though, then it's also a strike against not only every class that doesn't have a "pounce" option, but every character who doesn't use a "pounce" option or every character who doesn't have it yet. It would imply, for example, that any Barbarian who doesn't go Rage-pounce is shoddy goods, and that Barbarians in general are lousy until level 10 when they can get it.
Well... Yeah kind of? I mean there's a reason archers are considered so good and why Beast Totem is generally considered the best totem line. Full attacks, especially at higher levels, are an absolutely ridiculous damage gain.
Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
Rogues and Swashbucklers can't either. Which I always found kind of hilarious given the characters they're supposed to represent in fiction. Not super on topic but still odd.
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Rogues and Swashbucklers can't either. Which I always found kind of hilarious given the characters they're supposed to represent in fiction. Not super on topic but still odd.
Swashbucklers should probably be the class that can combine spring attack and vital strike rather than another class that can pounce.
There's no point really in having the light-on-your-feet mobile swordsman if the most effective technique for swordfighting is to stand in one place and make full attacks.
Gloves of dueling makes weapon training +6, focused weapon makes the scythe a 2d8 rather than 2d4 Beyond that im not sure.
Not difficult to get a 40 strength without things like eldritch heritage -> orc bloodline or profane bonuses.
Impact weapon property = Large Weapon (3d8 dmg)
Gloves of Dueling
Warrior Spirit = Bane (total enhance bonus = +7, +2d6 that is not multiplied)
x2 strength multiplier for single attacks with the two-handed fighter.
Martial Focus
If that's a serious strike against the Fighter, though, then it's also a strike against not only every class that doesn't have a "pounce" option, but every character who doesn't use a "pounce" option or every character who doesn't have it yet. It would imply, for example, that any Barbarian who doesn't go Rage-pounce is shoddy goods, and that Barbarians in general are lousy until level 10 when they can get it.Well... Yeah kind of? I mean there's a reason archers are considered so good and why Beast Totem is generally considered the best totem line. Full attacks, especially at higher levels, are an absolutely ridiculous damage gain.
Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.Rogues and Swashbucklers can't either. Which I always found kind of hilarious given the characters they're supposed to represent in fiction. Not super on topic but still odd.
Item Mastery -> Teleportation Mastery. Take the dimensional feats.
Any class can do it. Easier to spare the feats, and you get more daily uses, with a fighter.
Well... Yeah kind of? I mean there's a reason archers are considered so good and why Beast Totem is generally considered the best totem line. Full attacks, especially at higher levels, are an absolutely ridiculous damage gain.
If that's a serious strike against the Fighter, though, then it's also a strike against not only every class that doesn't have a "pounce" option, but every character who doesn't use a "pounce" option or every character who doesn't have it yet. It would imply, for example, that any Barbarian who doesn't go Rage-pounce is shoddy goods, and that Barbarians in general are lousy until level 10 when they can get it.
Sure, but now we're talking about a melee martial problem, not a Fighter problem specifically.
There are two Fighter archetypes that grant pseudo-pounce abilities by level 11 - the Dervish Fighter doesn't even lose anything but Armor Training. And among other things, a Fighter can multiclass or use elaborate feat combos more easily than most can in search of some kind of 'pounce' - like going Felling Smash plus Greater Trip plus Vicious Stomp (great with Snakebite Striker Brawler 3), or going Outslug Style (even if not using the 'chosen weapon' at all) for a huge full attack range, or getting the Dual Strike Weapon Trick (triggering Two-Weapon Rend). Fighter has options.
Still, this is a separate problem I have with Pathfinder: the absurd number inflation. How can one balance between two fighters when one outs out 350 damage a round, and another puts out, on average, say 100? And that's within the single class, not looking at the quite literal infinite damage some casters can do.
Ah, for me it's that the signature abilities for classes are way off at 20th level where they're utterly irrelevant. I'd globally move all of them (and adjust some) to levels 6-8. That people can math out random numbers at 20th level is neat but unimportant.
Though that the fighter's is 'even more numbers' over 'can do interesting things' all the way up to the capstone is part of the problem with the class. (And somewhat ironically, really poor saves).
But whatever happens to the fighter, it needs to kick in between levels 3 and 8 where it matters. Get rid of trivial stuff like bravery and tweaking numbers, and give actual class abilities (similar in scope to the slayer or hunter, but a different focus) instead of dumpster diving through the trashbins known as feats.
Gloves of dueling makes weapon training +6, focused weapon makes the scythe a 2d8 rather than 2d4 Beyond that im not sure.Not difficult to get a 40 strength without things like eldritch heritage -> orc bloodline or profane bonuses.
Impact weapon property = Large Weapon (3d8 dmg)
Gloves of Dueling
Warrior Spirit = Bane (total enhance bonus = +7, +2d6 that is not multiplied)
x2 strength multiplier for single attacks with the two-handed fighter.
Martial Focus
Assuming 40str (I expect 20 base, 4 from levels, 6 enhancement, 5 from wish, and another 5 from....something), and the rest of the math, that's another....125 or so damage? That puts you at around 410. Enlarge person probably gets you another handful as well.
I don't expect you get 2x str multiplier as it says "attack action or charge" which your autocrit attack is neither.
@Voss: I agree about character progression. I feel, overall, it takes too long for classes to feel like themselves, especially for the fighter.
Item Mastery -> Teleportation Mastery. Take the dimensional feats.
Any class can do it. Easier to spare the feats, and you get more daily uses, with a fighter.
While I'd personally allow this combo, I don't believe there is a consensus as to whether or not Teleportation Mastery fulfills the prerequisite of Dimensional Agility. I'd expect table variation here.
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@Voss: I agree about character progression. I feel, overall, it takes too long for classes to feel like themselves, especially for the fighter.
Well, that's another problem. I have no idea what a 'fighter' is supposed to feel like. Most classes (especially the fifty-eleven paizo classes outside the core book) are really tightly focused on very specific concept*. A fighter is just a generic NPC class with a bad name. And most of the divine, hybrid or partial caster classes can fill the same role (and others on top) with no problem at all, usually better in fact.
*though some, like the druid, are too all-over-the-place in terms of unrelated abilities, and others (especially the psychic classes) have way too many subsystems and moving parts.
Well, that's another problem. I have no idea what a 'fighter' is supposed to feel like.
The wonderful thing about fighters, they have the versatility to feel like just about anything.
All those feats can make for incredibly diverse builds and play styles.
500 damage as a standard action? How?At 19th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter may make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon at a –5 penalty. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical threat. Special weapon abilities that activate only on a critical hit do not activate if this critical hit is confirmed.At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.Auto-crit with a x5 weapon while benefitting from things like Greater Power Attack.
So the Fighter starts to shine at approx. 15th level, gotcha.....
*sad face*
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Well, that's another problem. I have no idea what a 'fighter' is supposed to feel like.The wonderful thing about fighters, they have the versatility to feel like just about anything.
All those feats can make for incredibly diverse builds and play styles.
The concept of a "build your own class" class has no purpose in a class based system. Otherwise the fighter becomes the background of "everything we haven't made a specialist class for yet". A class needs a characterful niche to fill, and the more classes you create the more specialized each niche must be. This is going to be a problem with most core (so to speak) classes, as they represent larger tropes that future classes take pieces off of (hunter vs ranger for example). Of course, the core wizard is "I have everything" while the core fighter is "I choose a subset from everything".
The concept of a "build your own class" class has no purpose in a class based system.Well, that's another problem. I have no idea what a 'fighter' is supposed to feel like.The wonderful thing about fighters, they have the versatility to feel like just about anything.
All those feats can make for incredibly diverse builds and play styles.
It's not "build your own class". It's "build your own intricate combat style with this class". The typical 'core' of the Fighter's identity is weapon and armor training combined with a ton of combat feats.
A Barbarian or Paladin or Ranger or etc. can be a hulking greatsword-smasher, a DEX-based scimitar wielder, or an archer; it's not like 'you can do really different things with this chassis' is something unique to a Fighter. The Fighter just has the largest stock of feats, and class features that focus on raw fighting skill (and unique fighting talents with the Weapon/Armor Master's Handbooks).
500 damage as a standard action? How?At 19th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter may make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon at a –5 penalty. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical threat. Special weapon abilities that activate only on a critical hit do not activate if this critical hit is confirmed.At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.Auto-crit with a x5 weapon while benefitting from things like Greater Power Attack.So the Fighter starts to shine at approx. 15th level, gotcha.....
*sad face*
Different builds shine at different levels.
The discussion was king of DPR, something relevant to end game.
Archery, Teleportation Mastery and Animal Ally were also put forward as means to full attack an opponent more than 10' away. The solutions chosen by the player are based on personal preference.
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Was just going to note, the "defend the fighter" side of things has called out a lot of feats that benefit the Fighter, always with the tag that "the Fighter has feats to spare", but that's not entirely true.
Fighter's feats are their class features; every time they get one, someone else is getting a class feature. The idea that the Fighter has "feats to spare" is only true in the sense that he can get some key feats faster than other classes (often by stocking up prereqs he'll never use again or get limited benefit from). Those other classes are getting actual class features during that time though, and these are often better than most feats. A fighter generally needs to spend around 4 feats to be able to move and strike, and generally at least two of those feats will be of minimal actual value. A Barbarian who wants to move and strike takes 3 class features, and each of those class features is providing other substantial benefits, like massively boosting the Barbarian's AC and giving him natural attacks. Paladins and Cavaliers can move and nova strike off of single class features built into their chassis', generally out fighting the Fighter through the bulk of the game and staying highly competitive even in late game DPR Olympics. Fighters can be decent if you do enough splat book diving, but they're generally much worse "out of the box" than any other class.
On the note of Warrior Spirit- keep in mind in calculations that Warrior Spirit cannot be applied to a +10 weapon (you're not allowed to break that cap, even with class features), so you're nerfing your potential for the day for five 1 minute boosts that only apply to a single creature type each time if you're adding bane, and the Fighter still has to be able to correctly identify what bane to add to the weapon (something he has no natural facility for). If the Fighter has to wait for someone else to identify the creature and they didn't head out specifically looking to encounter it, that means his best case scenario for round 1 is readying an action, meaning he's either moving into the enemy's full attack range and sitting there or losing the ability to move up and attack it this round; more than that, there doesn't appear to be any action specified for activating Warrior Spirit, so it's a little unclear what activating it entails; if it's a standard action like the paladin's divine bond for weapons, that's an entire round of damage lost. If you misidentify the creature (possible, especially since the Fighter is likely leaning on another character for this task), that's a completely wasted round.
My biggest thing is that anytime I think about making a Fighter without using 3pp materials, I realize that I can pick another class who'll do whatever I want to do with the Fighter just as well, or so close it makes literally no difference in an actual game, while being better rounded overall and far easier to build.
If my goal is "get X feat by Y level so I can use it in this one-off", I'll probably think about building a Fighter. If my goal is "build a competent adventurer who I think can start this campaign at level 1 and be a solid contributor throughout" Fighter is literally the last class that will come to mind.
Warrior spirit, lacking any activation goes to the default for SU which is a standard action.
I believe this has been confirmed intent by a dev or author comment, but I don't have a link for that.
But even if not real intent, unless we get official change to give it an activation time it defaults to standard.
Fighter's feats are their class features; every time they get one, someone else is getting a class feature. The idea that the Fighter has "feats to spare" is only true in the sense that he can get some key feats faster than other classes (often by stocking up prereqs he'll never use again or get limited benefit from). Those other classes are getting actual class features during that time though, and these are often better than most feats.
Except that besides feats, the Fighter also gets Weapon Training and Advanced Weapon Training, Armor Training and Advanced Armor Training, and all kinds of possible side-benefits through Archetypes. Like taking Dervish Fighter to get a move-and-full-attack ability one level later than Barbarian Pounce.
My biggest thing is that anytime I think about making a Fighter without using 3pp materials, I realize that I can pick another class who'll do whatever I want to do with the Fighter just as well, or so close it makes literally no difference in an actual game, while being better rounded overall and far easier to build.
There are almost endless interesting melee character concepts that are either impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats - and that's on top of all the options opened up by things like Advanced Weapon Training or Archetypes like Lore Warden. If you're not into using feat-intensive builds yourself, fine; but dismissing it with "I don't have any interesting ideas for using massed feats and/or other Fighter features, so there are none" seems a bit unfair.
I sort of wonder if "styles that require a huge number of feats to make work" were originally intended as a patch to the fighter since nobody else could afford to devote 6 feats to just to getting something off the ground, whereas a human fighter can manage that at level 3.
Then you consider the fact the fighter might be better off mastering multiple less feat-intensive styles than one incredibly feat-intensive style. Or just devoting all their feats to one fighting style that starts good and gets better (e.g. archery).
Fighter's feats are their class features; every time they get one, someone else is getting a class feature. The idea that the Fighter has "feats to spare" is only true in the sense that he can get some key feats faster than other classes (often by stocking up prereqs he'll never use again or get limited benefit from). Those other classes are getting actual class features during that time though, and these are often better than most feats.Except that besides feats, the Fighter also gets Weapon Training and Advanced Weapon Training, Armor Training and Advanced Armor Training, and all kinds of possible side-benefits through Archetypes. Like taking Dervish Fighter to get a move-and-full-attack ability one level later than Barbarian Pounce.
My biggest thing is that anytime I think about making a Fighter without using 3pp materials, I realize that I can pick another class who'll do whatever I want to do with the Fighter just as well, or so close it makes literally no difference in an actual game, while being better rounded overall and far easier to build.There are almost endless interesting melee character concepts that are either impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats - and that's on top of all the options opened up by things like Advanced Weapon Training or Archetypes like Lore Warden. If you're not into using feat-intensive builds yourself, fine; but dismissing it with "I don't have any interesting ideas for using massed feats and/or other Fighter features, so there are none" seems a bit unfair.
I've been able to build so far builds that basically match any build put forward of a fighter with a different class that also had a few more perks.
So if you know of or have a build that is "impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats" I'd like to see it.
I sort of wonder if "styles that require a huge number of feats to make work" were originally intended as a patch to the fighter since nobody else could afford to devote 6 feats to just to getting something off the ground, whereas a human fighter can manage that at level 3.
Then you consider the fact the fighter might be better off mastering multiple less feat-intensive styles than one incredibly feat-intensive style. Or just devoting all their feats to one fighting style that starts good and gets better (e.g. archery).
Thats kind of what I get too but its kind of an inferior option to a vigilante talent style redesign of feats. It also only works if you don't do things like give shield mastery out 5 levels early to slayers and rangers, or allow other classes to ignore the gateway and get right to the good stuff.
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Also, avenger vigilante can basically VMC fighter, spend their vigilante talents on combat feats or the talents that give multiple feats over time and be a fighter + all the social talents + way more skills + better base saves for an average of 1 hp less per level
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The Fighter could actually fill its master-of-all-combat niche if it didn't lose out on nearly every aspect of combat to other classes.
Nor can it be a jack-of-all, since you need to focus on one style with each character to get any particularly strong abilities.
It doesn't get many (or any) more bonus feats than other martial classes either. Vigilantes can get many more (some of them non-combat) and have some of them be much better than usual, Phantom Thieves can get just as many without them all having to be Combat-based, Gunslingers and Monks get a decent amount, and even non-martials like Magi and Battle Hosts can get a pretty decent number.
It can get 500 damage, you say? Well that's just... amazing, unless of course it comes online at Level 20 or something ridicu-ah, right. Even then you have less out-of-combat utility than anything else, since even the Gunslinger can open locks and stop bleeding with ease and it also has skills.
Seriously, how are you meant to play a master-of-all- or jack-of-all-combat when you can't even represent a varied set of skills any soldier would need without diminishing your combat ability in other ways? Any professional warrior knows how to sew, repair minor damage to their gear, spot the enemy, traverse rough battlefield terrain, perform minor first aid, scrounge for supplies, cook, use era-appropriate transportation... Seriously. Knights, Samurai, Vikings, Hoplites, the Swiss Guard, Mongols, Marines... various levels of soldier all throughout history with varying degrees of effectiveness, and every single one of them a versatile, skilled combatant in their own right.
I've had that thought before and it sort of made me come to the conclusion that the Fighter isn't just a substandard class, it's actually unhealthy for the game as a whole because of what its existence does to feats.
It actively makes every other martial class in the game worse because of what designers think they can get away with because fighters (and more specifically, human fighters) exist.
I think in a theoretical Pathfinder 2.0 you would want to remove/consolidate a huge number of the "dead" feats, and in lieu of feats at every level you'd need to instead give the fighter something like Vigilante Talents, which are feat-like but better than feats.
I don't know if there's fixing that in this version of the game, unless they wanted to do, I don't know, "Feats Unchained".
But I've thought about building say, an Elven Battle Style user for an Occultist, because it's an INT based combat class and the 2nd feat in the chain lets you get INT to damage. I gave up because you can't manage it before level 7 and you're spending a lot of feats on stuff that just doesn't help you. Then I thought about putting Whirlwind Attack on an aberrant bloodrager, which is a thing a nonhuman bloodrager can do at level 7 (and you'd rather have things like combat reflexes and power attack than mobility.)
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Well, that's another problem. I have no idea what a 'fighter' is supposed to feel like.The wonderful thing about fighters, they have the versatility to feel like just about anything.
All those feats can make for incredibly diverse builds and play styles.
I've never actually seen this. I've seen wacky ineffective builds or builds that are pretty much the same but with different weapons, as if holding a specific weapon equals 'flavor' in some fashion.
But I've haven't seen diversity or playstyles beyond archer or not-archer. Nor, indeed, a difference between fighter archer and non-fighter archer or fighter not-archer and not-fighter not-archer, except that the fighter invariably contributes less to all parts of the game, including combat.
Most of the problem is that feats utterly fail to impress me. A couple more beyond the pile that everyone gets isn't a feature, since mostly feats are just fees brokered to repeal artificial restrictions, with more fees chained up beyond them. And a whole pile of classes also get bonus feats in addition to their vast spread of actual abilities.
Two feats and an int requirement just to get to the very basics of the swordplay genre (disarming) is offensively bad, and that's just the starting point. Especially since it is going to get _less_ useful and rewarding as the character goes along.
So if you know of or have a build that is "impossible or totally impractical without a Fighter's massive stock of bonus feats" I'd like to see it.
Sure; fun concept build for a Dervish Fighter:
Sandstorm Dervish
Dawnflower Dervish Fighter 12
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 15DEX, 13CON, 10INT, 15/17WIS, 7CHA
1. Two-Weapon Fighting / +Double Slice
2. +Fighter Retraining -> 8
3. Weapon Focus: Scimitar
4. +Weapon Specialization: Scimitar
5. Advanced Weapon Training: Defensive Weapon Training
6. +Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7. Improved Unarmed Strike
8. Fighter Retraining: +Elemental Fist / Touch of Serenity
9. *Advanced Weapon Training: Abundant Tactics / Shaitan Style
10. +Advanced Weapon Training: Trained Initiative
11. *Rapid Attack* / Shaitan Skin
12. +Two-Weapon Rend
Dual wields Effortless Lace scimitars - if Effortless Lace is unavailable, takes Advanced Weapon Training: Effortless Dual-Wielding. Solid attack and damage on a full attack through the usual Fighter bonuses plus dual-wield.
At level 8, can begin to throw Touch of Serenity at targets in place of making a single attack; Will save DC scales with character level and WIS. Abundant Tactics brings more uses/day.
At level 9, can add a chunk of acid damage once per round with Elemental Fist, making standard attacks or charges pretty fierce for a one-handed weapon strike. Abundant Tactics brings plenty of uses/day.
At level 11, gives up one attack out of 4/5 to Rapid Attack when unable to make a regular full attack, or when mobility is preferable.
Also at level 11, uses Shaitan Skin to throw Reflex-save-or-staggered Elemental Fist acid damage. Acid/stagger triggers even on a missed attack. DC scales based on character level and WIS.
500 damage as a standard action? How?At 19th level, as a standard action, a two-handed fighter may make a single melee attack with a two-handed weapon at a –5 penalty. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical threat. Special weapon abilities that activate only on a critical hit do not activate if this critical hit is confirmed.At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.Auto-crit with a x5 weapon while benefitting from things like Greater Power Attack.So the Fighter starts to shine at approx. 15th level, gotcha.....
*sad face*
Not true!
That was an example of a Fighter that starts to shine at 19th level. At level 15, he's a standard "very effective on any turn where he's fortunate enough to get to do a full attack" martial.
Also, avenger vigilante can basically VMC fighter, spend their vigilante talents on combat feats or the talents that give multiple feats over time and be a fighter + all the social talents + way more skills + better base saves for an average of 1 hp less per level
It costs a fighter 2 feats (or two weapon training choices) to pick up all good saves. Armed Bravery + Fighter's Reflexes.
Skilled fighters have already been demonstrated, though they tend to pick up all intelligence skills instead of social skills.