Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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About a year ago, Linda and I began listing magical ammunition rather than more +1 flaming arrows because we recognized that Chronicle sheets unfairly rewarded bow users and ignored most other forms of projectile weapons. The term ammunition represents whatever form of ammunition the PC wants to buy. Need +1 flaming blowgun darts? Go for it. Want those three pieces of ammunition to instead be +1 flaming staff sling bullets? Have fun! Would you rather pepper foes with +1 flaming pistol bullets? We're not stopping you.
Basically, you should enjoy the listed ammunition no matter what variety of ranged character you are. Ammunition is anything from arrows to bolts to atlatl darts, using Table 1–7 in Ultimate Equipment as a solid but not exhaustive guideline.
So as a GM does this apply to ammo for my Rock Giants ? :D
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Out of curiosity, what about shuriken?
To my knowledge, there are practically no shuriken on Chronicle sheets (with one Season 7 scenario that might be an exception), and shuriken should be able to benefit from the same host of special weapon abilities as other ammunition. Barring some ability that can only affect projectile weapons and not thrown weapons, I'm not thinking of any reasons why this wouldn't be okay, but I'd like to run it past a colleague or two.
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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So as a GM does this apply to ammo for my Rock Giants ? :D
Your stone giants need to review their respective Chronicle sheets to see if they have both available gp and special ammunition to purchase. No Chronicle sheets, no special ammo. Them's the rules.
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Hey, John, is it possible to make a ruling retroactively applying the term "ammunition" to all previous Chronicles?
That would be super sweet.
Assuming it's possible, is there anything we as a Forum can do to help you?
Without going through all of those past Chronicle sheets, I'm not sure what the scope and ramifications of such a change would be. I am especially cautious about ammunition that would appear in the Special Weapons section of the Core Rulebook, such as screaming bolts; my strong inclination is that unless otherwise called out, those should be of a fixed ammo type.
If you or someone else is so inclined and wants to email me a list of ammunition that would be affected across the season, modules, and Adventure Paths, I'm willing to look over it more closely.
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If you or someone else is so inclined and wants to email me a list of ammunition that would be affected across the season, modules, and Adventure Paths, I'm willing to look over it more closely.
You got yourself a deal!
I own Season 4 in its entirety. Plus Bonekeeps 1-3. I'll start digging through those and send you a list =)
Who else wants to help?
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Out of curiosity, what about shuriken?To my knowledge, there are practically no shuriken on Chronicle sheets (with one Season 7 scenario that might be an exception), and shuriken should be able to benefit from the same host of special weapon abilities as other ammunition. Barring some ability that can only affect projectile weapons and not thrown weapons, I'm not thinking of any reasons why this wouldn't be okay, but I'd like to run it past a colleague or two.
The chronicle sheets for Jade Regent have shuriken on them (which should surprise no one.)
Off the top of my head I know that there are some sleep arrows on a Season 6 chronicle, which is a special weapon rather than an enchantment type.
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Out of curiosity, what about shuriken?
Only thing I can think of is that thrown weapons aren't destroyed on a hit like other ammuntion. Some can also be used in melee (like daggers). Would be more flexible, and allow a bunch of melee weapons to gain the ability. It also means the "limit: 3" doesn't really mean anything, since you can just go pick it up afterwards.
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Out of curiosity, what about shuriken?Only thing I can think of is that thrown weapons aren't destroyed on a hit like other ammuntion. Some can also be used in melee (like daggers). Would be more flexible, and allow a bunch of melee weapons to gain the ability. It also means the "limit: 3" doesn't really mean anything, since you can just go pick it up afterwards.
Shuriken are a weird case, though, because they *are* treated like ammo and destroyed on a hit. They are also priced like ammo. The only thing different about them is that they don't have a separate launching weapon.
Contributor
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Shuriken should be considered ammunition for this purpose (obviously pending Mr. Compton's ruling), as they have pretty much all the relevant properties of ammunition (destroyed on use, priced like ammo, drawn as ammo, etc.)
As for scenarios, I'd love to help out, but I don't have any (unclaimed) seasons.
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About a year ago, Linda and I began listing magical ammunition rather than more +1 flaming arrows because we recognized that Chronicle sheets unfairly rewarded bow users and ignored most other forms of projectile weapons. The term ammunition represents whatever form of ammunition the PC wants to buy. Need +1 flaming blowgun darts? Go for it. Want those three pieces of ammunition to instead be +1 flaming staff sling bullets? Have fun! Would you rather pepper foes with +1 flaming pistol bullets? We're not stopping you.
Basically, you should enjoy the listed ammunition no matter what variety of ranged character you are. Ammunition is anything from arrows to bolts to atlatl darts, using Table 1–7 in Ultimate Equipment as a solid but not exhaustive guideline.
First: I really-really like this.
Second: I fear someone is going to screw it up for the rest of us... so, I got to speak up about a possible problem.Darts (thrown, and from an Atlatl) are re-usable, so if they count as ammunition it's likely going to throw up issues with game balance. "I'll just go pick up this Human Bane Dart and shot it at the human. Best investment I ever made - I seem to use it 2 or 3 times each game..."
I will assume re-usable thrown weapons are NOT going to count as Ammunition for this? Please?
Bolded relevant bits...darts are thrown weapons, blowgun darts, however, are ammunition. Completely different type of item.
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sigh... bolded the reference to Atlatl darts...About a year ago, Linda and I began listing magical ammunition rather than more +1 flaming arrows because we recognized that Chronicle sheets unfairly rewarded bow users and ignored most other forms of projectile weapons. The term ammunition represents whatever form of ammunition the PC wants to buy. Need +1 flaming blowgun darts? Go for it. Want those three pieces of ammunition to instead be +1 flaming staff sling bullets? Have fun! Would you rather pepper foes with +1 flaming pistol bullets? We're not stopping you.
Basically, you should enjoy the listed ammunition no matter what variety of ranged character you are. Ammunition is anything from arrows to bolts to atlatl darts, using Table 1–7 in Ultimate Equipment as a solid but not exhaustive guideline.
First: I really-really like this.
Second: I fear someone is going to screw it up for the rest of us... so, I got to speak up about a possible problem.Darts (thrown, and from an Atlatl) are re-usable, so if they count as ammunition it's likely going to throw up issues with game balance. "I'll just go pick up this Human Bane Dart and shot it at the human. Best investment I ever made - I seem to use it 2 or 3 times each game..."
I will assume re-usable thrown weapons are NOT going to count as Ammunition for this? Please?
Bolded relevant bits...darts are thrown weapons, blowgun darts, however, are ammunition. Completely different type of item.
My bad.
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Perhaps a clarification to "normally destroyed on use" ammo?
Otherwise the Throw Anything feat suddenly got a lot better.
-j
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sigh... bolded the reference to Atlatl darts...About a year ago, Linda and I began listing magical ammunition rather than more +1 flaming arrows because we recognized that Chronicle sheets unfairly rewarded bow users and ignored most other forms of projectile weapons. The term ammunition represents whatever form of ammunition the PC wants to buy. Need +1 flaming blowgun darts? Go for it. Want those three pieces of ammunition to instead be +1 flaming staff sling bullets? Have fun! Would you rather pepper foes with +1 flaming pistol bullets? We're not stopping you.
Basically, you should enjoy the listed ammunition no matter what variety of ranged character you are. Ammunition is anything from arrows to bolts to atlatl darts, using Table 1–7 in Ultimate Equipment as a solid but not exhaustive guideline.
First: I really-really like this.
Second: I fear someone is going to screw it up for the rest of us... so, I got to speak up about a possible problem.Darts (thrown, and from an Atlatl) are re-usable, so if they count as ammunition it's likely going to throw up issues with game balance. "I'll just go pick up this Human Bane Dart and shot it at the human. Best investment I ever made - I seem to use it 2 or 3 times each game..."
I will assume re-usable thrown weapons are NOT going to count as Ammunition for this? Please?
Bolded relevant bits...darts are thrown weapons, blowgun darts, however, are ammunition. Completely different type of item.
So...why are Atlanta darts considered reusable? Given that their weapon type is "ammunition" I would have them follow the general ammo rules. What am I missing?
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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Did a quick trawl of Season 1. Might've missed some, but I found the following. Put them in spoiler tags, just in case.
1-37: The Beggar's Pearl has 2 +1 Fey-Bane arrows on tier 1-2, 10 +1 Fey-Bane arrows on tier 3-4. Not sure if those 10 are in addition to the 2 on the lower tier, or replace them.
1-39: The Citadel of Flame has 4 +1 Holy arrows on tier 1-2.
1-46: Eyes of the Ten, Part 1: Requiem for the Red Raven has 8 +1 Flaming Burst Arrows.
1-48: The Devil We Know, Part IV: The Rules of the Swift has 1 Slaying Arrow on tier 6-7, but it's not keyed to a specific type. Not sure if there's a discussion about it on the respective GM forums about it.
1-53: Echoes of the Everwar, Part IV: The Faithless Dead has 2 Screaming Bolts on tier 7-8. But John already said he's cautious about those. Not sure if "cautious" means "I don't want to change those" or "I'm especially interested in those."
Also, irrelevant to this discussion, but Among the Dead also has a large Half-plate for sale, which I found amusing.
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Oh yeah, I know how they are in real life. And in 1st edition atlatl used actual javelins. But as you say, the relationship between rules and real-life are...tenuous.
But I'd never heard of atlatl darts as a PF weapon before this thread, and so looked them up in UE, and I didn't see anything there that would make me think they were reusable.
The standard costing is *horrible* for them if they aren't, but that's a different complaint.
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Venture-Agent, Netherlands—Utrecht
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And because I'm bored, Season 2:
2-04: Shadows Fall on Absalom: tier 7-8 has 12 Sleep arrows.
2-13: Murder on the Throaty Mermaid: tier 1-2 has a Sleep arrow, no limit specified.
2-22 Eyes of the Ten, Part IV: Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained: has a Slaying Arrow, unkeyed, and no max limit.
Reading through all the Chronicles, I also see a lot of random other cool weapons with enhancements. While I get that limiting ammunition to just bolts and arrows can screw a lot of other classes (Gunslingers, mainly) out of cool ammunition, I kinda think the same goes for lots of melee weapons. I'm not advocating to also allow them to change to a weapon they're proficient with, but I always chalked it up as tough luck. Though I certainly understand Gunslingers feeling locked out, especially seeing how there are a lot more cool toys for other ranged weapons, and pretty much none for guns, so don't take this paragraph as an indication of "grr, things should stay the same." I'm just saying that it might open the floodgates for more.
Because they are defined as ammunition, and the section on ammunition says that ammo is destroyed on a hit, and I didn't see an exemption to that rule in the weapon description.
That exception might exist somewhere and I'm just missing it, but otherwise the general ammo rules should apply.
The tragedy of the atl-atl was always that the mundane ammo was expensive, it was not called out for the 1/50 discount for certain magical ammunition, and that it was destroyed on hit (just like other ammunition). If John Compton's post indicates that it gets the special 1/50 magical ammunition pricing, then that at least helps them a bit.
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Because they are defined as ammunition, and the section on ammunition says that ammo is destroyed on a hit, and I didn't see an exemption to that rule in the weapon description.
That exception might exist somewhere and I'm just missing it, but otherwise the general ammo rules should apply.
The tragedy of the atl-atl was always that the mundane ammo was expensive, it was not called out for the 1/50 discount for certain magical ammunition, and that it was destroyed on hit (just like other ammunition). If John Compton's post indicates that it gets the special 1/50 magical ammunition pricing, then that at least helps them a bit.
I can't follow you here.
The entire point of the game having definitions like ammunition is so that you don't have to remind someone what the rules are when you list crossbow bolts, and again when you arrows, and again when you talk about shiurken,
Atlatl darts have always been ammo. There's no change here.
The tragedy of the atl-atl was always that the mundane ammo was expensive, it was not called out for the 1/50 discount for certain magical ammunition, and that it was destroyed on hit (just like other ammunition). If John Compton's post indicates that it gets the special 1/50 magical ammunition pricing, then that at least helps them a bit.I can't follow you here.
The entire point of the game having definitions like ammunition is so that you don't have to remind someone what the rules are when you list crossbow bolts, and again when you arrows, and again when you talk about shiurken,
Atlatl darts have always been ammo. There's no change here.
According to sources (which don't have a section tag or I would have linked directly to the ammunition table), the atl-atl dart has always been ammunition, true. I'm not saying that it wasn't ammunition. According to magic item pricing, "For ammunition, this price is for 50 arrows, bolts, bullets, or firearm ammunition" which doesn't include the atl-atl dart (note that shuriken have a special note to include them in this "discount category").
In other words, the 1/50 discount isn't a property of ammunition, but is a property of an enumerated list of items.
Is this a pedantic distinction? Yes. Do I agree with you that all ammunition should be included in the 1/50 discount? Yes. Do I think all reasonable GMs would agree with our interpretation? Yes. Do I think, in the course of playing over various tables, you will run into a Crusader for RAW Justice that refutes the legality of our claims? You bet.
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Good thing there's no such thing as "RAW".
Likewise, there is no such thing as "RAI (Rules As Intended)".
There is only "RaI (Rules as Interpreted)."