I'm wondering if there is any way to accomplish a 17-20 crit range on unarmed strikes. Preferably anything paizo printed, however 3.5 and 3pp can be considered.
Since you mention 3pp.... You can get 18-20 if you have Improved Critical and are of Rogue Genius Games' Talented Fighter class and take the 'brute' talent from More Fighter Talents. It explicitly does stack. I don't know any way to better that, though.
The keen edge spell makes the same statement, yet the 3pp effect in question is very clear about stacking with it in particular, and specific overrides general. You don't really think that text in Improved Critical and keen edge makes it impossible for any other text anywhere to override them, do you?
Brute (Ex): The fighter is a master of getting the most out of unassuming weapons. When wielding a weapon he is proficient with, that normally has a threat range of 20 and a x2 critical damage multiplier, the fighter may choose at the beginning of the round to either increase the weapon's threat range to 19-20, or to increase its damage multiplier to x3. This talent works normally with weapons that have had their threat range or critical multiplier increased by some other ability or effect. For example, a fighter with brute selects a sickle, allowing him to either have the sickle be 19-20/x2, or x3. If a keen edge spell is cast on the sickle, the fighter may choose between 18-20/x2, or 19-20/x3 for the spell's duration.
A cestus functions as an unarmed strike for all purposes, so a keen cestus should do it.
If you just want the damage increase and the crit range you might want to consider using a Cestus with Close Weapon Mastery
Talking 3PP again, Path of War's Stalker can get this:
Critical Edge (Ex) The stalker's deadly efficiency in combat allows him to increase the critical threat range of any weapon he wields by +1. This bonus is applied after abilities such Improved Critical or the keen weapon property and cannot be doubled.
A 1 level dip will get it for you, though I'd more suggest going 20 levels in it and taking the Greater Unarmed Strike Feat from the same book, along with Broken Blade Maneuvers.
Sorry bumping an old thread but you can now get the sharpened arm arcana for the jistkan artificer magus. Then you can use your arcane pool to put keen on your fist. Granting you a 17-20 unarmed strike..
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The pre-errata pummeling style gave an effective high crit range on unarmed strikes, but it was nerfed to remove that.
It's why we ALWAYS ignore BS errata/FAQ that make things worse... Wizards exist, there is no such thing as balance issues... let people have nice things...
no it doesn't help. as mentioned above. both keen and improved critical say stuff along the lines :
"This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat)." (from keen)
the brawelr pug had :
"
Vicious Blades: Razor-sharp blades on the surface of the limb cause it to deal bludgeoning and slashing damage and increase its critical threat range to 19–20. A constructed pugilist who has the vicious spikes limb modification can’t select this modification."
you need to focus on things that increase the crit range but are not keen or improved critical to avoid this.
on the other hand
this guy, at level 20. by spending 3 drunken points, can get a crit range of 17-20 from a normal threat of 20 weapon such as a fist (or get 15-20 on 18-20 weapons or 16-20 on 19-20 weapons)
no it doesn't help. as mentioned above. both keen and improved critical say stuff along the lines :
"This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat)." (from keen)the brawelr pug had :
"
Vicious Blades: Razor-sharp blades on the surface of the limb cause it to deal bludgeoning and slashing damage and increase its critical threat range to 19–20. A constructed pugilist who has the vicious spikes limb modification can’t select this modification."
The Constructed Pugilist increases the weapon's base crit-range from 20 to 19-20. They even use different language (Expand vs Increase). This seems so similar to the Justkan Artificer (who explicitly can give their unarmed strike the Keen property), and the Constructed Pugilist would definitely be the more "specific" in a "general vs specific" ruling.
I can see your argument but I think they can add keen.
The Artificer Magus can do it... and, although, the Brawler increases the range, it does NOT say it can't benefit/stack with Keen. So it can.
Let's check:
This benefit doesn’t stack with any other effects that expand the threat range of a weapon (such as the keen edge spell or the Improved Critical feat).
This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon.
Multiple effects that increase a weapon's threat range (such as the keen special weapon property and the Improved Critical feat) don't stack.
Razor-sharp blades on the surface of the limb cause it to deal bludgeoning and slashing damage and increase its critical threat range to 19–20.
Improved Critical Threat Range (Varies): Increase the weapon’s critical threat range by 1.
(I couldn't find that one on archivesofnethys, but I assume it's the same)
And the JISTKAN ARTIFICER doesn't use either word.
This seems pretty inconclusive, especially since Keen and Keen-Edge are in separate categories.
It's worth noting that the strictest reading disallows a Keen Longsword. My reading is that if you're replacing the weapon's base crit multiplier you can add keen to it.
The theme of the Pugilist (if nothing else) is that you're replacing the arm with a blade, which in my mind would be fine with Keen/Improved Critical. It would also have been much easier for the Pugilist to simply gain the Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) feat if their intent was to disallow this interraction.
Since the closest thing to it is the Jistkan Artificer, and they explicitly CAN use it I'm leaning towards that for the Pugilist as well.
keen is from core book.
they can't type each and every way to express the concept of enlarging the range of threat range without taking 100 more books for every other concept of the game.
they picked one word. but it mean the same damn thing weather it is typed as 'increase', 'expand', 'enlarge' etc. the information on keen state that it "doesn’t stack with any other effects that expand the threat range"
saying ,no this say 'increase' so it's not 'expanding' is a fail in English everywhere.
if you 'increase' the threat range it also 'expands' the threat range. or are you saying it actually 'reduces' it?
that arm ability unmodified crit range is 20. taking a mod ability to make it 19-20, how ever you want to call it, should not stack with keen because keen specifically call out that it doesn't, you don't need the arm to also say it. now if you had an OTHER ability that increase threat and doesn't say it can't stack you could stack that with the arm mod.
if the mod would have changed the arm to a weapon it would have said something about the damage (even just to say it stay the same amount) the fact it say you "rework" it and not something like replace it. mean it's not a blade that has 19-20 normal threat. it's an upgrade of the normal arm from 20 to 19-20. (this also explain why you can decide to deal P or S damage but don't loose the ability to still do B. the arm is modified, not replaced)
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Concerning the brawler arm
She treats attacks with this limb as unarmed strikes that gain all the benefits of the brawler’s unarmed strike class feature. She treats the limb as a light weapon and is proficient with it. Removing or reattaching the constructed limb takes 10 minutes.
The constructed pugilist can improve her constructed limb as if it were a normal melee weapon. For the purpose of rebuilding the limb as a masterwork weapon, rebuilding the limb out of a special material, or adding certain magical special abilities to it, the limb counts as a one-handed melee weapon that costs 60 gp and weighs 6 pounds—though it is specially fitted to the constructed pugilist and can’t be resold or used by anyone else.
It IS a weapon that happens to deal unarmed damage
A 5th level Brawler can cause any weapon in the Close weapon group to deal Unarmed damage.
Close Weapon Mastery (Ex)At 5th level, a brawler’s damage with close weapons increases. When wielding a close weapon, she uses the unarmed strike damage of a brawler 4 levels lower instead of the base damage for that weapon (for example, a 5th-level Medium brawler wielding a punching dagger deals 1d6 points of damage instead of the weapon’s normal 1d4). If the weapon normally deals more damage than this, its damage is unchanged. This ability does not affect any other aspect of the weapon. The brawler can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of her adjusted unarmed strike damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made.
Use the Custom Weapon rules to create your own weapon and assign it to the Close Weapon Group. Make it Exotic (6dp), 1-handed (2dp), and 30gp more expensive (2dp) for a total of 10 Design Points. Call your Exotic Weapon a Not-a-Cestus.
Give it the Fragile (-1DP) and Lesser Damage (-1DP) qualities to make it deal 1d2 damage, so now you have a total of 12DP to work with. Your Brawler levels will automatically increase this to 1d6 and start scaling as you level (once you're lvl 5, obv). Increase the Crit Multiplier to x4 with 3DP + 6DP, and then increase the Crit Range to 19-20 for 3DP. Pick up a Wand of Mending to deal with Nat 1's on your fragile weapon.
Throw on a Monk's Robe for +5 levels to Unarmed Strike damage to make up for the -4 level penalty from Brawler's Close Weapon Mastery, put a +1 & Keen Enchant on it. Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Not-a-Cestus. And Voila! You have a weapon that has scaling Unarmed Strike damage with 17-20/x4 critical.
Continue leveling as a Brawler for the scaling damage, or, continue into whatever class you want after level 5 and your Unarmed Strike still deals 1d8 damage.
Enchant your Not-a-Cestus with Impact and get a Wand of Enlarge Person, and you'll be dealing damage as if Huge-sized, which would be 1d8 --> 3d6.
You won't qualify for things like Pummeling Style/Charge because they're not technically Unarmed Strikes per se, but you would be able to Flurry of Blows + Haste for lots of attacks. Get 2 of these weapons and pick up Imp/Greater TWF if desired.
Impact won't stack with brawler ability.
It's either the impact damage OR brawler damage
It’s a close weapon, so I think it would. If it were impact on an AoMF then I’d agree with you.
It’s a close weapon, so I think it would. If it were impact on an AoMF then I’d agree with you.Impact won't stack with brawler ability.
It's either the impact damage OR brawler damage
The argument is that you either take the weapon damage or the Brawler damage .
It's about order of operations for when you get to apply the Brawler damage and the impact damage.
If you're able to go then it works, but if the Impact weapon damage is what's replaced by the Brawler optional damage then you can't.
I haven't looked into it enough to have an opinion on which would be correct, but an Impact weapon vs an Impact AoMF shouldn't matter as far as I can see.
Table: Small or Large Brawler Unarmed Damage
Level Small Brawler Large Brawler
1st-3rd 1d4 1d8
4th-7th 1d6 2d6
8th-11th 1d8 2d8
12th-15th 1d10 3d6
16th-19th 2d6 3d8
20th 2d8 4d8
I’m pretty positive that small, medium, large, and huge brawlers deal scaling damage and are affected by size increases, both actual and virtual. Otherwise, this table would be really confusing.
I’m pretty positive that small, medium, large, and huge brawlers deal scaling damage and are affected by size increases, both actual and virtual. Otherwise, this table would be really confusing.
Impact doesn't change the Brawler's (effective) size, and that is what Close Weapon Mastery is based on. Impact affects the weapon's base damage, which is not used atall when using Close Weapon Mastery.
Contrast "a Large brawler deals more damage" and "dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger".
Forget the Impact then, just get a Wand of Enlarge Person and deal 2d6 damage 17-20/x4.