I have a magus with fencing grace that I shelved after the fencing grace errata. I've decided to start playing him again, but I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly.
I was under the impression that fencing grace no longer worked with either spell combat or spell strike. I have since heard that it still works with spell strike. Is this true? If so, where can I find this written?
Spellstrike does not take up your free hand. Barring a specific prohibition in the write up of either ability, this should be all you need.
That's not written anywhere, because nothing about Fencing Grace stops Spellstrike. You are still using only one weapon, and not using Spell Combat, so happening to use your rapier to transmit your touch spells is fine.
But, with spellstrike you are still casting a spell. I would assume the casting of the spell would occupy the hand not holding the weapon unless there was no material or somatic components.
Well, when you cast a touch spell, you are indeed using your hand to do the somatic components of that spell.
But, during the free action that you're using to deliver the touch spell, that other hand is completely unoccupied and not being used for anything else.
Thus, it works just fine.
You can also cast the spell in a previous round.
Using touch spells with multiple charges works nicely with Fencing Grace.
In one round use Spell Combat to cast Frostbite or Chill Touch and make a full attack without Fencing Grace. In successive rounds deliver more charges with Spellstrike while using Fencing Grace.
You couldn't cast spells on those successive rounds without ending the touch spell anyway, so getting the extra damage from Fencing Grace is gravy.
Both spell combat and spellstrike work just fine. It's just that during any rounds in which you wish to use spell combat, you don't get your DEX added to damage, i.e., fencing grace no longer applies for that round (though weapon finesse still applies).
Now, Gisher appears to be looking at it the way I do. Any round in which you use spell combat or spellstrike you do not get dex to damage.
There does not appear to be a lot of agreement with that viewpoint.
Now, Gisher appears to be looking at it the way I do. Any round in which you use spell combat or spellstrike you do not get dex to damage.
There does not appear to be a lot of agreement with that viewpoint.
Actually I said you can use Spellstrike with Fencing Grace on the rounds that you aren't using Spell Combat.
Here are a few possible scenarios.
(1) Use Spell Combat to make a full attack while casting Shocking Grasp which you deliver through Spellstrike.
You can't use Fencing Grace that round because F.G. can't be used with Spell Combat.
(2) Cast Shocking Grasp as a standard action and use Spellstrike to deliver it through a weapon attack.
You can use Fencing Grace that round because you didn't use Spell Combat.
(3) Use Spell Combat to make a full attack while casting Frostbite (with multiple charges) and deliver some charges through Spellstrike. In successive rounds use Spellstrike to deliver the remaining charges through attacks.
You can't use Fencing Grace on the first round because F.G. can't be used with Spell Combat. You can use F.G. on the following rounds since you are not using Spell Combat during those rounds.
(4) Cast Frostbite (with multiple charges) using a standard action and deliver one charge through Spellstrike. In successive rounds use Spellstrike to deliver the remaining charges through attacks.
You can use Fencing Grace on the first round because you didn't use Spell Combat. You can also use F.G. on the following rounds since you are not using Spell Combat during those rounds either.
So, spellstrike is indeed considered a subset of spellcombat. I have often stated this, but regularly am corrected by people saying they are two separate things.
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So, spellstrike is indeed considered a subset of spellcombat. I have often stated this, but regularly am corrected by people saying they are two separate things.
No, Spell Combat and Spellstrike are entirely separate abilities.
I am curious as to what made you think I was saying that Spellstrike was a subset of Spell Combat. That might help me understand where your confusion is coming from.
This comment.
Use Spell Combat to make a full attack while casting Shocking Grasp which you deliver through Spellstrike.
This comment.
Use Spell Combat to make a full attack while casting Shocking Grasp which you deliver through Spellstrike.
That supports the notion that they are different abilities. You use one and the other at the same time. That doesn't mean one counts as the other.
And what of the Skirnir archetype, which explicitly replaces Spell Combat but not Spellstrike? By your reasoning, they are left with an ability they cannot use, since they supposedly can't use Spellstrike outside Spell Combat.
The fact is, they can. Spell Combat is one thing, Spellstrike is another. They can be used together but that does not mean they have to be.
Ahhhhh. I think I see the error of my ways. Sadly, that makes fencing grace pretty much a crap feat for me.
This does bring up another issue for me that may help a different character. The wand wielder arcana allows the magus to use a wand in place of spell combat. I've had it ruled that the restriction of using the wand for spell combat means that the spell produced by the wand can not be used with spellstrike. But, with this new perspective, the production of the spell through a wand for spell combat would not interfere with then using the spell for spellstrike.
Spell strike requires you to cast a spell, activating a wand is not casting a spell. Wand wielder arcana allows you to activate a wand for spell combat, it does not help with spellstrike.
Bad Magus! Back to Dervish Dance with you!
Paizo does appear to despise the concept of a dex magus without a scimitar.
Bad Magus! Back to Dervish Dance with you!
Eh, what's the difference?
Bad Magus! Back to Dervish Dance with you!Eh, what's the difference?
Fencing grace is a lot more careful to disqualify any use of the other hand. Dervish dance has different wording. Currently it's allowed because spell combat does not count as "carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand".
OK, somehow the wording got changed when Archives of Nethys wasn't looking. For Fencing Grace, they've got:
Benefit: When wielding a rapier one-handed, you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The rapier must be one appropriate for your size.
For Dervish Dance,
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
I only have actual access to the latter, and in any case, I gather there's been "clarification." Can you fill me in on how "wielding a rapier one-handed" is different from "wielding a scimitar with one hand"?
It was an errata. Fencing grace now includes this sentence: "You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or anytime another hand is otherwise occupied."
which pretty much shuts down spell combat, because the other hand is "occupied" by a spell.
So, spellstrike is indeed considered a subset of spellcombat. I have often stated this, but regularly am corrected by people saying they are two separate things.
Spellstrike has nothing to do with spell combat. It is completely separate and always an available option.
There are no limits on the usage of spellstrike. It does not interfere with any other ability, including Fending Grace.
Spellstrike is an extra delivery option for touch based magus spells. Nothing more, nothing less. Any time you deliver a touch based magus spell, you can choose to do so with you weapon.
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Use frostbite, not shocking grasp.
First round: Swift action use arcane pool to buff weapon. Cast (using right hand) frostbite. Move to enemy and along with this move action draw your rapier with your right hand. Using spellstrike, as a free action attack enemy (fencing grace bonus applies as you have only used your right hand all round and left has done nothing) and deliver one charge of frostbite along with your melee attack. THE ABOVE IS EXPLICITLY ALLOWED VIA FAQ--NOTE THAT AT NO TIME DID WE USE SPELL COMBAT.
Subsequent round: Full attack while delivering frostbite charges with each attack; also get fencing grace bonus with each attack.
Note: There is no difference between spell combat with fencing grace, slashing grace, and/or dervish dance. In each case, the off hand is occupied by the spell if using spell combat, and so the extra damage cannot be applied.
Note: There is no difference between spell combat with fencing grace, slashing grace, and/or dervish dance. In each case, the off hand is occupied by the spell if using spell combat, and so the extra damage cannot be applied.
Incorrect.
While both Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace have been erratad to specifically exclude spell combat, Dervish Dance retains its original wording and continues to function with Spell combat.
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Note: There is no difference between spell combat with fencing grace, slashing grace, and/or dervish dance. In each case, the off hand is occupied by the spell if using spell combat, and so the extra damage cannot be applied.Incorrect.
While both Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace have been erratad to specifically exclude spell combat, Dervish Dance retains its original wording and continues to function with Spell combat.
First off, see below link for indication devs have NEVER thought dervish dance applied with spell combat:
Even if you do not accept that, the FAQ to slashing grace applies equally well to dervish dance.
Dervish dance: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand." Spell combat (see FAQ to slashing grace) counts as a weapon in your off hand.
Please do note my description of how to attack in my first post in this thread. If you are using frostbite, this basically does not affect you. It is only the shocking grasp magus that gets screwed.
Note: There is no difference between spell combat with fencing grace, slashing grace, and/or dervish dance. In each case, the off hand is occupied by the spell if using spell combat, and so the extra damage cannot be applied.Incorrect.
While both Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace have been erratad to specifically exclude spell combat, Dervish Dance retains its original wording and continues to function with Spell combat.
First off, see below link for indication devs have NEVER thought dervish dance applied with spell combat:
Even if you do not accept that, the FAQ to slashing grace applies equally well to dervish dance.
Dervish dance: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand." Spell combat (see FAQ to slashing grace) counts as a weapon in your off hand.
Please do note my description of how to attack in my first post in this thread. If you are using frostbite, this basically does not affect you. It is only the shocking grasp magus that gets screwed.
This FAQ to Slashing Grace? Of course spell combat does not work with Slashing Grace, the errata specifically says it does not.
Spells, and spell-like abilities in general are not weapons. They occupy no fighter weapon training group, and are not treated as weapons for other rules
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
Emphasis mine.
We'll just agree to disagree I suppose.
The second FAQ you quote is irrelevant. It is not talking about spell combat but rather special abilities like rays, kinetic blasts, etc.
Read the entire FAQ: it deals with spells, spell-like abilities and special abilities.
I only quoted the small section that was most relevant to this thread.
While both Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace have been erratad to specifically exclude spell combat, Dervish Dance retains its original wording and continues to function with Spell combat.First off, see below link for indication devs have NEVER thought dervish dance applied with spell combat:
Even if you do not accept that, the FAQ to slashing grace applies equally well to dervish dance.
Dervish dance: "You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand." Spell combat (see FAQ to slashing grace) counts as a weapon in your off hand.
Please do note my description of how to attack in my first post in this thread. If you are using frostbite, this basically does not affect you. It is only the shocking grasp magus that gets screwed.
Noted. I couldn't believe that the devs would intentionally permit spell combat for one one-handed-only feat but eliminate it for the other. It makes no sense! Arguing that they didn't mention one when specifically ruling on the other is quite different!
Dervish Dance is from a campaign setting book, and they essentially only FAQ and errata hardcover books. Thus, they have not yet touched Dervish dance.
But, with spellstrike you are still casting a spell. I would assume the casting of the spell would occupy the hand not holding the weapon unless there was no material or somatic components.
You're conflating spell strike and spell combat.
Spell strike simply lets you deliver what would normally be a touch attack spell through your weapon against normal AC, which potentially grants you extra weapon damage vs the spell alone.
Spell combat lets you cast a spell (which would normally have a standard action cast) and make a full-attack action by taking some penalties and having some restrictions. The free touch attack granted by touch range spells is converted into an extra weapon attack via Spell Strike.
You cannot use Fencing Grace with Spell Combat. You could however cast the spell alone and deliver it using Spell Strike, getting only 1 attack that round.
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Myself, in any campaign I run, I'd allow the likes of Fencing Grace, Dervish Dance, and any other feats or abilities that allow Dex to Damage when it comes to the Magus' abilities. The reason being as I do not consider a spell "accompany" the off hand.
In this, I disagree with the Dev team and would choose to allow these feats to work with Magus' abilities as long as nothing is actually being _physically_ held in the off hand.