Imagine the following scenario:
A non-kitsune (human for simplicity) character selects Adopted as one of their traits.
Through Adopted, they select to have been raised by Kitsune, and select the Nine Tailed Scion trait.
Now the trait says they can take Magical Tail in place of a freely chosen class feat.
You are talented with kitsune magic. You gain a +1 trait bonus on caster level checks for your racial spell-like abilities as well as those from the Magical Tail feat (Advanced Race Guide 193). Additionally, you can select Magical Tail as a bonus feat whenever your favored class grants you a bonus bloodline feat, combat feat, or metamagic feat instead of the normal type of feat granted by that class. You cannot exchange specific feats granted by a class or race for Magical Tail in this manner; for instance, a monk cannot exchange his Stunning Fist feat for Magical Tail.
With this premise, consider the following questions:
1) If this character selects Ranger as their favored class, may they select Magical Tail as a style feat, considering the class permits them to ignore prerequisites? Or does it asking them to select from among a list of feats count as a specific feat for the trait's exception?
2) If this character selects Fighter as their favored class, may they select Magical Tail as a bonus combat feat? Fighter does not allow one to ignore prerequisites, but does the trait saying "you may select" make it an option when it otherwise would not be?
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By RAW*, I would say no to both. While ranger lets you ignore the prerequisites, since it does not grant you "a combat feat" (instead granting a number of feats which happen to often be combat feats), that's a no. Fighter, conversely, grants combat feats, but gives you no way to ignore the racial prerequisite.
Get Racial Heritage** involved, though, and now you're cooking. ^_^
**Unless you're in PFS, of course, but that's its own issue.
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What Kalindlara said. And may I add that Adopted is a vile abomination despised by all the gods, and that you are a bad, bad person for trying to abuse it this way?
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my desire for foxgirls well exceeds my desire to adhere to RAW.
You and I think very much alike!
And yeah, typically I would just go Heritage. This was more a curiosity, rather than anything I was actually planning, and I already have more than enough--
Wait. How is it that of twenty some PCs, I only made one foxgirl? This must be rectified immediately!
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What Kalindlara said. And may I add that Adopted is a vile abomination despised by all the gods, and that you are a bad, bad person for trying to abuse it this way?
But... I was adopted by the party's half-orc bard, Timothy! He taught me his people's deep cultural secret of growing four-inch tusks!
(Full disclosure: I have actually used Adopted for Tusked before. I wanted a "saber-toothed tiger" catfolk.)
What Kalindlara said. And may I add that Adopted is a vile abomination despised by all the gods, and that you are a bad, bad person for trying to abuse it this way?
I don't think that adopted is vile, I think the problem is Racial Heritage personally.
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I don't think that adopted is vile, I think the problem is Racial Heritage personally.I think both are fine, as long as you're willing to work with the GM and find a reasonable explanation for the combination you're using. ^_^
In other words, definitely something more plausible than "I was abandoned in the woods and found by Kitsune, and now I'm able to grow cute fluffy tails because... science?"
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In other words, definitely something more plausible than "I was abandoned in the woods and found by Kitsune, and now I'm able to grow cute fluffy tails because... science?"
Exactly. ^_^
Anecdote time: One of the cohorts in my Carrion Crown game is a ranger with RH (kitsune) and Fox Shape. His mother was a kitsune who was killed by ignorant lycanthrope-hunters; after avenging her, he became a lycanthrope hunter himself, under the logic that it should be done by people who knew what they were doing.
He doesn't really abuse it mechanically; it's basically a cute trick and a scouting boon.
1) It probably doesn't work. You're getting Magical Tail instead of a style feat that you get to ignore the prereqs of, rather than adding Magical Tail to the list of options you ignore prereqs for and then selecting it. A GM might consider choosing from a style list to be different than getting a bonus combat feat. Not that some GMs won't let it fly, of course; it's not clear-cut.
2) The trait doesn't say you ignore prereqs, so you don't.
3) GMs will often be annoyed with Adopted being used to get physical characteristics, since that doesn't make a lot of sense (and lacks a Wizard to pin the blame on), so expect table variation to not fall in your favor.
Pardon... But wouldn't a Ranger's combat style feats count as 'specific feats' for the purpose of Nine-Tailed Scion? I could understand a fighter, gunslinger, brawler, wizard, or just about any other class that grants a unnamed bonus feat to be eligible. Hell, even a rogue's Combat Trick talent would probably fit the bill. But the monk and ranger give a specific list of feats to choose from, not a combat feat in general...
(Full disclosure: I have actually used Adopted for Tusked before. I wanted a "saber-toothed tiger" catfolk.)
See but that's were a reasonable DM would, IMO, say, "Well, that trait makes sense for your character. There is a reasonable explanation. So, don't worry about jumping through the Adopted trait hoop, you can just take Tusked but call it 'Smilodon Smile'."
The same for any other race that has a reasonable explanation for gaining a bite attack. Dhampir could have a Fangs trait, Goblins a Goblin Grin trait, etc. They are all identical to the Tusked trait, just for their respective races.
The same for any other race that has a reasonable explanation for gaining a bite attack. Dhampir could have a Fangs trait, Goblins a Goblin Grin trait, etc. They are all identical to the Tusked trait, just for their respective races.
Dhampir already have a Fangs alt trait, it trades for their racial SLA, and does 1d3+str(or 1.5 x str if the only attack made) vs grappled or helpless/motionless targets.
Kitsune are... Just awesome. I wonder, if you take the Magical Tail feat a ninth time, would the GM rule you effectively become a full-blooded kitsune? =D Maybe you even get a Mystic tier...
(Since you are not one to begin with, you can technically only get eight tails... When will the adopted Kitsune-raised child finally gain their full inheritance of nine?!)
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(Full disclosure: I have actually used Adopted for Tusked before. I wanted a "saber-toothed tiger" catfolk.)
Thank you for giving me my next character idea.
Dhampir already have a Fangs alt trait, it trades for their racial SLA, and does 1d3+str(or 1.5 x str if the only attack made) vs grappled or helpless/motionless targets.
Your point?
Many races have multiple methods of getting similar abilities, whether is be a race trait, an alt racial trait, or a feat.
Half Orcs can take the Tusked race trait, the Toothy alt racial trait, or the Razortusk feat to get a bite attack. I see no reason to disallow that same choice to other races.
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What Kalindlara said. And may I add that Adopted is a vile abomination despised by all the gods, and that you are a bad, bad person for trying to abuse it this way?
Yeah, this is one of the worst switches I have seen. Even racial heritage at least has the excuse that you are 1/16 kitsune or something, which would justify growing tail perhaps.
I would still hate it for the abuse, but at least it would make basic sense, since actual genes are involved. But the only genes shared ebtween this character and its adoptive parent are blue jeans, which is because they both need ones with tail room.
I don't think that adopted is vile, I think the problem is Racial Heritage personally.
I would agree that the trait is less trouble...mostly because it only accesses traits usually. But this is going full on racial heritage here. This is basically racial heritage without even spending the full feat for the effect.
What Kalindlara said. And may I add that Adopted is a vile abomination despised by all the gods, and that you are a bad, bad person for trying to abuse it this way?But... I was adopted by the party's half-orc bard, Timothy! He taught me his people's deep cultural secret of growing four-inch tusks!
(Full disclosure: I have actually used Adopted for Tusked before. I wanted a "saber-toothed tiger" catfolk.)
....I hate you.
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The problem, as what happens with Adopted and Racial Heritage often, is that the base race (likely human or half human) does not actually have any spell like abilities to use with the trait/feat in question. Magical Tail has nothing to build off of, for example. Does one get a Spell like ability that the Kitsune would have already had, or the one listed on the feat?
This is also a niggle in the Fox Form feat taken with Racial Heritage, as the parent race (likely human) does not have any other forms to add the fox form to.
It comes down to the simple quantifier...
Do you have x? No?
Then this Trait/feat does not help you, even when you can otherwise take it.
Tusked works, by the way. We all have mouths.
The trait Nine-Tailed Scion does not necessitate any of this. It may be intended for a race that begins with a certain feature, such as a tail or initial access to the feat, but the trait itself gives access.
"Additionally, you can select Magical Tail as a bonus feat whenever your favored class grants you a bonus bloodline feat, combat feat, or metamagic feat instead of the normal type of feat granted by that class. "
By RAW, this works. And in terms of flavor, it makes an awesome fox-tailed character if you manage to pick up the feat. Technically, if you come from a race such as gnomes, this trait would also benefit your SLAs (For caster level checks anyways).
The Magical Tail feat itself grows an extra tail. It does not pose any requirements on having one to begin with. If you want to be really anal about it, you can say the flavor doesn't apply, but you can still benefit from the feat's SLAs themselves.
Oh dear lord, who opened the can-of-tails again? No-ones brought up Kobolds yet, have they?
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Oh dear lord, who opened the can-of-tails again? No-ones brought up Kobolds yet, have they?
Well, now you have. And now you made me realize why I am even more made about the fact that the adopted trait is being used for this nonsense.
I won't say why. I have the good sense to keep my mouth shut. I will, however, reserve the right to say "I called it" if it does come up anyway.
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Well, now you have.Oh dear lord, who opened the can-of-tails again? No-ones brought up tail-less puppies yet, have they?
I don't know what you're talking about.
I'm getting war flashbacks about a certain thread I made a while back.
So, 5 posts later, Nobody has explained what this conflict is for anyone unfamiliar, nor has any of it followed this thread's topic...
Is this relevant, or shall it just be ignored?
It's relevant to understand where the rabbit-hole that this question opens up will lead to.
Keep in mind, that isn't even the only thread.
Imagine the following scenario:
With this premise, consider the following questions:
1) If this character selects Ranger as their favored class, may they select Magical Tail as a style feat, considering the class permits them to ignore prerequisites? Or does it asking them to select from among a list of feats count as a specific feat for the trait's exception?
No, Ranger Combat Style feats are like a monk's Stunning Fist.
2) If this character selects Fighter as their favored class, may they select Magical Tail as a bonus combat feat? Fighter does not allow one to ignore prerequisites, but does the trait saying "you may select" make it an option when it otherwise would not be?
Yes, this is completely legal. If your GM takes umbrage at you gaining a physical characteristic by adoption that was not in your genome, ask your GM to explain, using science, how anthropomorphic foxes can speak and have magic powers. :P
Alternatively, if you want to take fluff as rules text, it states that you grow "an extra tail". You can't have an extra of something you don't already possess, so you better already have a tail... and new ones will duplicate your existing one. Also, have fun enforcing all the other rules fluff in the rulebooks.
We take "fluff" as rules all the time. You have an example of where that isn't the case? Just because it doesn't have numbers does not mean it's not a rule.
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The fluff does account for what is in the rules text, and should be relevant in this situation in particular. Most of the back and forth is about ignoring the fluff to concentrate on one particular of the rules text and shutting everything else out.
But all that being said, it is something that a player can get a GM to consider in their campaign. (I maintain that it would not work in PFS)
To clarify, these feats can be taken by the character in these situations. It is whether or not the character benefits from those feats that is in question. (Gaining Spell like abilities, extra tails, fox forms and other like things that are dependent on racial abilities a Human/base race would not have)
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Alternatively, if you want to take fluff as rules text, it states that you grow "an extra tail". You can't have an extra of something you don't already possess, so you better already have a tail... and new ones will duplicate your existing one. Also, have fun enforcing all the other rules fluff in the rulebooks.
This very much does not seem like the intent of the thread. The point is evidently to eschew the fluff of the trait to insert one's own fluff. Soft, fluffy, cuddly fluff at that.
To clarify, these feats can be taken by the character in these situations. It is whether or not the character benefits from those feats that is in question. (Gaining Spell like abilities, extra tails, fox forms and other like things that are dependent on racial abilities a Human/base race would not have)
Now I'm starting to consider the implications of a nine-tailed inheritor Tiefling with Prehensile/Grasping Tail.
I've been looking through, and I don't see any way of abusing Adopted this way-- it seems there aren't any classes that receive a bonus bloodline/combat/metamagic feat they don't have to meet the prerequisites for. Oh well.
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More, it is easy enough to justify with simply the explanation that they are a Kistune Tiefling, one with infernal or abyssal blood.
Now I'm starting to consider the implications of a nine-tailed inheritor Tiefling with Prehensile/Grasping Tail....!!!
Oooooooooooooooooo, so much potential...
Succubus descended Tiefling with so many fluffy tails...
Wait, is there a way for Teflings to qualify for Racial Heritage without taking Pass for Human, since that removes Prehensile Tail as an option?
Taking Adopted and choosing 1/2 elf or 1/2 orc and choosing elf-blooded or orc-blooded respectively. Time for all the tails!!! XD
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Wait, is there a way for Teflings to qualify for Racial Heritage without taking Pass for Human, since that removes Prehensile Tail as an option?Taking Adopted and choosing 1/2 elf or 1/2 orc and choosing elf-blooded or orc-blooded respectively. Time for all the tails!!! XD
Adopted lets you pick Race traits, not Racial traits. Confusing, I know.
Paizo should have used specie or type traits, not racial traits.
Paizo doesn't write with the assumption that people will be constantly trying to pull asshat level of corner case rules interpretation.
PFS made it clear, you can't take race-specific feats unless you are of the race indicated, and "adopted" does not clear you for them.
Now I'm starting to consider the implications of a nine-tailed inheritor Tiefling with Prehensile/Grasping Tail.
If only we could get half kobold in there for tail terror.
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Now I'm starting to consider the implications of a nine-tailed inheritor Tiefling with Prehensile/Grasping Tail.If only we could get half kobold in there for tail terror.
Racial Heritage still works though when creating a mixed parentage character though correct, counting racial feats and archetypes?
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Paizo should have used specie or type traits, not racial traits.Paizo doesn't write with the assumption that people will be constantly trying to pull asshat level of corner case rules interpretation.
PFS made it clear, you can't take race-specific feats unless you are of the race indicated, and "adopted" does not clear you for them.
Then they don't know some of their costumers. :P
Beside that, I think some people is genuinely uncertain about the difference between racial trait and race trait.Reading again what you wrote, you are not responding to my post, BTW, you are leaving off on a tangent. I was speaking of people that read race and racial trait as the same thing, while you are speaking of acquiring feats.
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The swap out traits that trade one thing (darkvision, for example) for another (Acid Resistance 5, for example) are not things taken through feats or the traits offered by the Advance Players Guide (repeating the Web Trait free download)
If it isn't a trait in a section listing "traits" for a beginning character, those that have been labeled "half-feats" by some, then it is likely a "race" trait that can only be used to swap out things for that race, likely in the race entry. Most Race Traits are in the Advance Race Guide, but there are others in Companion books and such.