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I sort of feel like bragging about my group even though it is going to derail some things in my game. They have done some serious charity that I simply did not expect and I want them to get something out of it besides good feelings. Please forgive the wall of text but they did a lot in one session. They are rarely this quick moving.
To give a little context. The party is in Andoran and they a have been charged with stopping a war between the nation of Andoran and the Fey. They were approached by a Fairy Queen and told that she wants peace but the humans are destroying the forests. She wants a meeting with the Lumber Consortium.
The Lumber Consortium is an organization that is responsible for all of the local lumber that Andoran uses. The big issue is that they do not replant. They will strip an area and then move on.
The group traveled from Falcons Hollow to the city of Oregent. They did not like what they saw there but the parts that they didn't like was not what I expects. The first made friends with the law and asked ot come in the town. That was the first weird thing.
Next was that when it came to meeting with the people who run the Lumber Consortium they were completely civil. They are actually trying to solve this one with no-violence! And I am so freaking excited. Even though they can see weakness in the unity of this group they are not capitalizing on it. Instead they are playing nice and my group usually does not do that with people they hate. And they hate this group. I have a druid in the party that really wants to just kill them all but is trying to avoid that.
The last thing and this was the on that completely caught me off guard was they want to buy land in Oregent. Now the three players that were there that session each want to do something a little different. The Druid wants to set up a pantheon style temple. The whole group was rather offended that there was no temple in this town. Not even a little shrine. The scorcerer wants to set up a soup kitchen because of how downtrodden the local looked. And then there is my vary ambitious wizard. He wants to add a whole new district to the town. He, and the others, did not like that the vast majority of the locals lived in ramshackle housing in an area known as the squats.
The group did give a lot of money to a baker who sells the left over product a servery reduced price a lot of money so she can easily continue to do so. Maybe even get an actual shop going. This did not surprise me. The group likes to give out money to help people and I love that about them.
It was the next donation and the other one that they have planed that shocked me. There was one Lumber Consortium council seat holder who they really liked. She is trying to fix the policies from the inside. She also works with feeding the poor and adopts orphaned children. They gave her four platinum pieces to help her get the town in a better state. And they plan to give money to the cities Magistrate.
They want to pour money into a town and make it better. And I want to let them do this. Even though this campaign I am running will take them far from this city and I doubt they will return until the game is over, so after level 20 is reached and they have saved the world. But I want this to benefit them. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
What should buying land cost? I have never heard of this coming up in any game I have ever been in.
Thank you in advance,
DAA
The place seems pretty destitute, so I wouldn't make land very expensive. I think ultimate campaign has a system for the cost to build structures, though, which isn't overly cheap, but it looks like they can afford it.
For a reward idea - do you use hero points? Sounds like they earned one.
Nope no hero points or they totally would have gotten some. I will look into ultimate campaign. Somehow that did not occur to me.
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One idea is that if the PCs are ever in a pinch, you could have some NPCs from this town show up to help them, with a line like "You've done so much to help us. Now it's our turn to help you!" Or something like that.
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Another thing you can do if you intend for this campaign to go for awhile in-game is to have the acts of the PCs in this instance affect them later.
I'd suggest earmark a character level in your campaign notes and have either a parent / child / sibling of someone they encounter in town show up to help out or otherwise provide some sort of benefit to the PCS - which they are only able to do so because of the aid the PCs rendered in the town when they were still low-level.
Could also do the same, but make it with outsiders / Fey / Empyreal Lords (maybe have Immonhiel have stayed in one of the houses that the PCs provided).
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You could have the grateful citizens frequently write them letters over the course of the campaign, potentially with gifts, or with information the people have sought out to help the party.
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You could also look at the other side of the coin, and have the fey be especially grateful. A town allied with the fey doesn't sound half bad. helpful gremlins everywhere, crops grow really well. As long as they honor the pact.
you could use the fey as a messenger for what the other posters are suggesting.
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Yea the fey could offer fast transportation for people to join the pcs in the Frey, maybe take one of the orphans that the council women adopted becomes badass in his own and then later on he could come to their aid in a big way. Or maybe the fey could grant each of the pcs a weapon of some kind that is magical and powerful with unique powers or something
Oh wow! Yay people have responded and I love it! I like the idea of the letters and the friendly fey. Though the fey stuff depends on the players and that meeting they are working on getting set up.
The letters giving them gifts will be fun to add occasionally throughout the whole campaign.
I am planning on giving the party some cool gifts from the Fairy Queen and this will be more points for a better item.
Thank you all!
DAA
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That is absolutely lovely. Here's a few ideas of varying seriousness
1. Equivalent of a Nobel Peace Prize. Perhaps a Humanitarian award of some sort
2. When they purchase the land it could have some sort of site based magic. Either naturally occurring or a fey blessing
3. Free leadership/torch bearer. Doesn't even have to be locals. Just anyone moved by this
4. Fame of their generosity spreads giving them a good reputation and making good people want to help them if recognized. This could take the form of free lodging, adoration of the ladies, bardic songs of greatness, nobles holding banquets, etc.
5. The local coinage could have the players faces on it
6. People could convert to their religion(s)
7. Races with shorter maturation periods could actually grow up over the course of the campaign. Would be an interesting encounter
8. It could be the hometown of an Archemage or other important NPC
9. This would definitely improve the afterlife conditions if anyone dies prematurely
As a last note the villain's main plan should change if the players remain attached to this town :)
If this isn't PFS, I'm in the habit of giving custom magic items that give the PCs powers from a character from whatever video game I'm playing atm.
For example, I gave a monk a shredder like pair of arm claws that gave him Zed's (from League) shadow abilities. I suppose this isn't inherently balanced... but it's cool and my players love it lol.
That is a list. I love the coinage idea and I will have them get recognized for their charity later. I had not considered the potential followers from this but yeah that could be a thing. Oh and their charity will work in their benefit when they get to Taldor later. Oh and this will work for them in the afterlife.
Sadly with who the BBEG is I cannot move him. But the group already has plans to keep moving so they are trying to set this up so that can leave and progress still happens. That was part of the reasoning behind them giving the gold away.
I have a few custom items and abilities they are going to be getting. Once they have set up the meeting and assuming nothing horrible happens the Fairy Queen is giving them some cool items. She is easily a level 20 caster and has I think 2 mythic tiers. This is a mythic game if I did not mention that and I do not think that I did.
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Oh boy. Purchasing land, are we? If you're talking about a fairly large amount, such as one hex (12 miles across), then the most analogous cost would be the cost of Claiming which is 1 BP, or 2000 gp. If the party wants to build something on this land you'd need to pay for that too. For example, let's say they want to build a watchtower as both a home base and a forward post for the city's defense - what great people! This would cost 12 BP, or 24000 gp. Make no mistake, buildings are expensive. If they instead wanted to develop a new city they'd have to prepare the land first (usually 1-2 BP for plains and hills but it gets more expensive on bad terrain like swamps and sand) then add buildings after that, most of which cost around 2-8 BP (4k-16k) for a block's-worth of real estate.
This gets less expensive if the land is already partially-developed, and even less expensive than that if it's within an existing city. You can find most of the information here. It's not a quick read, but it does cover a lot of ground.
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For all the help they're giving everyone, I would recommend having some important people help them out. I recommend you look at these. Even if you're not using reputation and fame rules, you could take a look at this for some inspiration.
Other things, like the above-mentioned letters, that don't necessarily give mechanical bonuses can still make them feel like they have an impact, and it would be nice knowing that they've inspired some little kid to form their own party so that they can be just as great as the PC's. Then, those seemingly inconsequential things can serve as foreshadowing for the citizens helping or even saving the PC's later on.
so here's the thing, back in medieval europe, there wasn't a thing called property rights.
All you need to do is buy the building material and then make whatever it is you want to make. Ownership was usually done by who worked it or who paid the workers, but you own the buildings not the land.
It wasn't until the late renaissance that property rights became a thing, when the nobles were no longer fighting each other the fledgling nations gave them land rights to keep them calm, which basically started the whole thing about only kings being able to hunt in these woods, etc.
now, if they really wanted to make the city great, they should instead find a way to make an aqueduct(in Europe this is usually by exploiting a river's flooding), and create public baths and a working sewage system, along with irrigating the local fields.
This will VASTLY improve the living conditions of the town and bringing money and increased population over the long term.
you don't know much much working sewage affecting towns wealth and growing capacity.(basically have the money thrown at the town go mostly into large scale construction outside the town to support it)
Then after all this, the people would be happy to help them make whatever the hell they wanted in the town.
basically after the town gets nice things like running water, anyone would be able to come in a build a house there, or even start making new farms nearby.
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so here's the thing, back in medieval europe, there wasn't a thing called property rights.
This isn't medieval Europe. It's Golarion. In Andoran, which is a republic with a constitution. So...this is pretty irrelevant, as statements go.
I mean, Golarion's tech-base is easily mid to late Renaissance level (with the exception that guns are pretty rare...the printing press is well known, though). And their 'social tech base' for lack of a better term is even more advanced. Property rights are well established as existing in several published supplements, for example.
now, if they really wanted to make the city great, they should instead find a way to make an aqueduct(in Europe this is usually by exploiting a river's flooding), and create public baths and a working sewage system, along with irrigating the local fields.
This will VASTLY improve the living conditions of the town and bringing money and increased population over the long term.
Again, this is Golarion. They might well already have all this. The technology certainly exists, and is in common use in many places. It's certainly possible this particular village is poor enough not to have, say, indoor plumbing, but retrofitting with that is tricky and expensive, and basic hygiene is clearly something people know of and practice.
I wouldn't go overboard with the rewards, though. Yeah, they were definitely the good guys in the scenario, and the people would be grateful, but it really just boils down to them not killing some people and giving them money. If they continue to act super good, the rewards can start really piling up.
so here's the thing, back in medieval europe, there wasn't a thing called property rights.This isn't medieval Europe. It's Golarion. In Andoran, which is a republic with a constitution. So...this is pretty irrelevant, as statements go.
I mean, Golarion's tech-base is easily mid to late Renaissance level (with the exception that guns are pretty rare...the printing press is well known, though). And their 'social tech base' for lack of a better term is even more advanced. Property rights are well established as existing in several published supplements, for example.
Again, this is Golarion. They might well already have all this. The technology certainly exists, and is in common use in many places. It's certainly possible this particular village is poor enough not to have, say, indoor plumbing, but retrofitting with that is tricky and expensive, and basic hygiene is clearly something people know of and practice.now, if they really wanted to make the city great, they should instead find a way to make an aqueduct(in Europe this is usually by exploiting a river's flooding), and create public baths and a working sewage system, along with irrigating the local fields.
This will VASTLY improve the living conditions of the town and bringing money and increased population over the long term.
there 1. were republics during medieval europe, such as venice and a few noble republics such as the Swiss.(I mean they true, didnt have a constitution, but that was primarily due to low literacy rates, even among nobility) 2. Aqueducts were not common in eurorope, let alone in run down towns. Indoor plumbing was not only not common but basically unheard of in all but the most advanced cities through out the ancient to pre-modern world(this is of course not counting specific castles and the like).
Retrofitting is not required, you build in key locations, such as the locations that Already have wells, and replace them with the public baths, with Drinking water, then baths, then toiletry. Most water in cities in the time came from wells, and thus would be collected and then moved in doors or some other spot to then bathe with.(in fact in golarion wells may not be a thing so much as clerics who can cast create water)
Baths tend to not be specifically about cleaning but also a place to rest and chat.
you have to realize until the 1960's it wasn't common to bathe in America more than once a week. Queen Victoria felt spoiled for, I believe(i may have the exact number wrong), bathing more than once a month.
and here's the thing, she had the capability to do so(and the nobility often washed and cleaned their hands and face, but didn't take full baths), there's a reason most literature of the time paints the poor as smelly and unclean, because they stereo-typically were. It was hard to clean yourself, compared to today's ease of access.
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Depending on who they impress in the fey courts give them an honor guard of Swan Maidens whenever they are away from civilization would be interesting. Or perhaps their interference caught the attention of a Vilderavn who becomes fascinated with the mortals and offers them it's service for a year and a day...at a cost.
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there 1. were republics during medieval europe, such as venice and a few noble republics such as the Swiss.(I mean they true, didnt have a constitution, but that was primarily due to low literacy rates, even among nobility)
Sure, but my point was that this was not Medieval Europe or anything resembling it. As another example, literacy is nearly universal among commoners in Golarion.
Taking the standards of Medieval Europe and applying them is thus really stupid.
2. Aqueducts were not common in eurorope, let alone in run down towns. Indoor plumbing was not only not common but basically unheard of in all but the most advanced cities through out the ancient to pre-modern world(this is of course not counting specific castles and the like).
Right. Which is why I noted it as pretty common in Golarion which, to repeat, resembles Medieval Europe in only the most utterly superficial terms.
Retrofitting is not required, you build in key locations, such as the locations that Already have wells, and replace them with the public baths, with Drinking water, then baths, then toiletry. Most water in cities in the time came from wells, and thus would be collected and then moved in doors or some other spot to then bathe with.(in fact in golarion wells may not be a thing so much as clerics who can cast create water)
Wells are still a thing...but my point was that much of this might already have been done. The technology exists and seems to be in widespread use in Golarion, and in places a bit less civilized than Andoran to boot.
Baths tend to not be specifically about cleaning but also a place to rest and chat.
you have to realize until the 1960's it wasn't common to bathe in America more than once a week. Queen Victoria felt spoiled for, I believe(i may have the exact number wrong), bathing more than once a month.
Well, first, this isn't exactly accurate. It's true of Medieval Europe and Victorian England, certainly, and many other times and places, but equally, many civilizations have bathed regularly (the Romans and Japanese leap to mind).
And once again Golarion is not directly correlated with European history. So its norms are not necessarily the same as those of any particular actual historical period.
and here's the thing, she had the capability to do so(and the nobility often washed and cleaned their hands and face, but didn't take full baths), there's a reason most literature of the time paints the poor as smelly and unclean, because they stereo-typically were. It was hard to clean yourself, compared to today's ease of access.
Well, first, baths and the like are clearly pretty common in Golarion, so there's no real hardship in accessing them. Second, any 1st level caster with Prestidigitation can clean you completely with a Standard Action.
I'd solidly say reward them maybe by picking up the Downtime rules and possibly even the Kingmaker rules.
Starting an opposing front in Darkmoon Vale won't be easy, the Consortium are the kind of mustache twirling capitalist 'Oh its such a shame our rival had that accident where he went out into the forest and managed to somehow stab himself in the back' types that they'll probably face corrupt opposition constantly.
But, on the other hand have the actual people of the area warm to them, going from hard and cynical to cheering them on as they realize maybe these guys are an alternative, a better chance.
That plus having the fey in the area perfectly willing to work with them could result in some fun involving a mix of high octane Capitalism as they fight the Consortium for Merchant contracts (And throttle them one inch at a time with their own purse strings) and sneaky behind the scenes gang warfare as the more illegal arm of the consortium tries to get rid of them only to run up against the good people of the land and the fey.
You could straight up run such a concept through to level 20 easily enough, with the Lumber Consortium just being the first crooked company (Then leading through into the Aspis and their allies once it falls)
I'd say the best starting point is to make it clear over time just how miserable and messed up things are in the Vale, how cynical and broken the people are, what an amoral force the Consortium is as a whole and then have the PCs make an impact on it.
Maybe run Tower of the Last Baron to give them some legitimacy in the area if things go hard for them when the Consortium starts to really put the thumbscrews on? After all they can drive out a bunch of tramps with good wishes, but Andoran won't turn a blind eye to them driving out 'The current heroes of Democracy (Who are currently looking after the tower and its title, honest guv, not keeping them there to put pressure on the Consortium)'
I wouldn't go overboard with the rewards, though. Yeah, they were definitely the good guys in the scenario, and the people would be grateful, but it really just boils down to them not killing some people and giving them money. If they continue to act super good, the rewards can start really piling up.
Yea, I agree with this.
So they *gasp* didn't murder their way to victory. And they did some charity. So what?
I mean, it's fine to reward desired behavior. But how would you have handled the situation if nameless NPCs had done those deeds? Would the random strangers who managed to negotiate peace be made king of the nation for it? As for charity... Bill Gates and Bill/Hillary Clinton give a ton of money to charity. Does that mean everyone loves them? Not really... not at all, actually.
The "reward" should be proportional to the aid, but it should be a negative sum game. If someone gives 100gp to "charity", but gets a return of 110gp in "rewards", is he still being charitable? Rewards of monetary value should be much lower than what is given/spent in the first place, and rewards should focus on "priceless" gifts, usually services but sometimes items that are rare but not of much use. For example, golden weaponry. It's impressive, and could possibly give a few circumstantial bonuses to some social checks, but they make for terrible weapons and are not likely to be used. Could be just gold-plated if you fear they'll pawn it.
Yay more reply's. I do have some reading for the buying and building on the lands. Thank you!
I like the simple boons. And I do not plan to go overboard on the rewards I mostly want them to feel that they have had an impact on the world with their actions. I want them to get little things out of this and mostly hit them in the feels. I love hitting them in the feels. Nicely and painfully, I am getting good at it to.
I think I will be adding the Reputation and Fame stuff into my game. Later they are going to need it.
Hmm granting boon in the form of service of a creature. This is actually something I have implemented with two players though their oaths to certain Deities. Hehe and they are terrified to use it! But that is an option here. Maybe, just maybe.
Also I run my money system as a platinum piece is worth 100 gold pieces. While everything else is 10 of the other. The final math of what they have given, and they are not done, is 7 platinum pieces. My little level eight heroes.
Sadly when I started them on this quest I did not realize that it could be a campaign in its own right but I had only been GMing for less than a year. Out of the game my group knows that there are about three different quests they will being getting that could easily be a campaign in and of themselves. Plus a lot of side quests and each of their own story arcs. Then I slapped mythic on it because I am insane. Paizo really should run and adventure path in Andoran or Taldor. There is so much potential!
Hehe there would be lots of grumbling at the gold sword and a night of mindcraft references. So maybe. And the maybe is very likely
Also I love the idea of the pictures in the inn. That is cool. As the exaggerated art. I could have fun with that one I think.
Oh and my thread had a mini debate. I like it! To be clear though on how I am running Andoran concerning the bits you two mentioned. There are Medieval, Renaissance, ect elements in the game. That is the nature of the game. But the last town they were in, which was less than half the size of this one, had running water and a sewage system. Most of the actual building in my Oregent have running water and a sewage system. But what bothered them is how most of the town, around 90% is ramshackle housing with four or more people living in a 10 by 10 ft single room house. Most of the lumber or iron workers, and they are 90% of the town, live in squalor. They bath in the river or when it rains. This place is an oddity in an Andoran city.
Buying land is required. But they are going to have issue buying land in the city because the Lumber Consortium owns most of the land inside the walls and rents it out to their workers. The tavern, inn, and brothel owners are not likely sell since that is their livelihood. And the militant force that is stationed in that town is sort of necessary.
My group wants to buy outside of the town and then add to the wall, in the case of both the one who wants to add a new district with legitimate housing and the one that wants a temple. While the one who wants the soup kitchen really wants property inside the town.
Thank you all!
DAA
Maybe a minor magical benefit from the Spirit of the Forest? Like a minor barkskin ability (+1 AC)?
I love random bonuses! I give them all the time depending on the situation.
The random magical benifit has some merit. I like it. The group has actuall met the Spirit of the Forest a few sessions ago. That was fun. They were so worried before it showed up.
there 1. were republics during medieval europe, such as venice and a few noble republics such as the Swiss.(I mean they true, didnt have a constitution, but that was primarily due to low literacy rates, even among nobility)Sure, but my point was that this was not Medieval Europe or anything resembling it. As another example, literacy is nearly universal among commoners in Golarion.
Taking the standards of Medieval Europe and applying them is thus really stupid.
2. Aqueducts were not common in eurorope, let alone in run down towns. Indoor plumbing was not only not common but basically unheard of in all but the most advanced cities through out the ancient to pre-modern world(this is of course not counting specific castles and the like).Right. Which is why I noted it as pretty common in Golarion which, to repeat, resembles Medieval Europe in only the most utterly superficial terms.
Retrofitting is not required, you build in key locations, such as the locations that Already have wells, and replace them with the public baths, with Drinking water, then baths, then toiletry. Most water in cities in the time came from wells, and thus would be collected and then moved in doors or some other spot to then bathe with.(in fact in golarion wells may not be a thing so much as clerics who can cast create water)Wells are still a thing...but my point was that much of this might already have been done. The technology exists and seems to be in widespread use in Golarion, and in places a bit less civilized than Andoran to boot.
Well, first, this isn't exactly accurate. It's true of...Baths tend to not be specifically about cleaning but also a place to rest and chat.
you have to realize until the 1960's it wasn't common to bathe in America more than once a week. Queen Victoria felt spoiled for, I believe(i may have the exact number wrong), bathing more than once a month.
sigh
1. my point was, that IF they had writing they WOULD have had written constitutions. you're the one who seems to be fixated on comparing Golarion to medieval Europe. I'm comparing it primary to renaissance, if anything all the way up to Victorian.
2. I will say i haven't read much on specific places in Golarion, but I definitely haven't seen an aqueduct.
3. frankly I simply find it unlikely that a city down on it's luck would have these amenities, if it did, it probably wouldn't be down on it's luck, since these are the things traders stop in cities for.
4. yeah, you know what those civilizations have in common? public baths as a city norm. This only really strengthens my point.
5. Here's the point, unless there's indoor plumbing with water pressure, without public baths, cleaning yourself is very time expensive. It wouldn't be something done out of leisure, but with ready access to clean water.
Prestidigitation can clean people, but it can't get rid of lice or other diseases that one can stop with constant bathing. (and golarion type louse are probably super lice that slowly drain your Con, pathfinder disease are scary)
these last points hold true regardless of current age.
Also seeing the post from the OP.
It doesn't make much sense. A conflict over a lumber industry should provide cheap lumber for the town, usually lumber mills build housing for their workers, so they can live close to where they work.
If they have working plumbing, that requires a skilled building workforce who would be of course buying lumber and other building supplies from around the location.
BASICALLY, working water = a well off town because this means
A. a skilled workforce
B. a trade post(which seems likely since a lumber industry is based here)
C. a food supply chain where a farmer can feed much more than his own family to support these craftsmen.
Historically, through out history, regardless of setting or time, ramshackle housing and the poor, never have private water supplies. this goes as far into modern times, where London, during the height of the Industrial revolution in the later 1800's to early 1900's, still has boroughs that relied on public water sources such as wells or water pumps. these were always the most poor.
so what i'm arguing is that a city has to be at least a bit well off before it can have this access to water.
so what i'm saying is, this situation doesn't make sense. especially over population, which would mean the town is doing GREAT(since like i said, people can just go and make their own houses on the edge of town).
now to make it make sense, something would have to be scaring them to stay inside the town. This could easily be the current conflict, and so resolving it, would end most of the problems prevailing the town.
In a normal scenario that would be the case. But I am taking what I read out of the book about this town and adding some stuff. There are no nearby farms. All the food is foraged, bought at market, or the taverns. The plots the workers homes are on are owned by the Lumber Consortium and they rent the plot. Most plots have ramshackle housing on them. All of this is to keep the workers destitute and desperate for their job.
Under normal circumstances yes a lumber industry would provide housing, and that will be the case with every other group I have. Just not this one.
Profit matters most of all and this organization does not sell anything for discount. Even to their own detriment. Yes the town is over populated but that is not always a good thing, especially in a poor town. And the workers could go out and build something better to live in but they would have to pick between feeding themselves and their families or building a better home.
Their are pumps and there is a rather large river on the edge of the town so the general populous can clean themselves. There is no a public bath though. Not here.