| 41 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was curious about the whole "chosen weapon" phrase used in the Kensai archetype.
For the record, I'm referring to this.
A kensai spends his life focusing his training and meditation into a rapturous perfection of the use of a single weapon, which is usually but not always a sword, channeling his arcane might through it in a dizzying and deadly dance beyond the abilities of even the greatest of mundane warriors.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice. A kensai is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored.
<SNIP>
Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.
I've read several threads on this board where people are asking whether certain things are allowed, and each one has had people posting their viewpoints, but nothing official. I also saw in the Kensai build guide that the author of the guide said that Stone Fist was useless since they couldn't use unarmed anyway.
So, my question is, can a Kensai choose any weapon, including, but not limited to, simple weapons (such as unarmed strike, daggers, or clubs), weapon-like abilities (such as kinetic blasts, alchemist bombs, or mystic bolts), Ranged weapons, and Martial & Exotic weapons to be their "chosen weapon", or are they limited to the Martial or Exotic melee weapon they got as part of their Weapon and Armor Proficiency class ability?
It doesn't matter if it would be ideal (some people have claimed that there's no reason why someone would choose a simple weapon when martial and exotic were much better, but that isn't an answer whether it's possible). It doesn't matter if it can't be used with Spellstrike or Spell Combat (unless that is the OFFICIAL reason why it won't work). It also doesn't matter if it's a bad choice because unarmed would stay at 1d3 (it's not the damage dice, it's the damage bonuses, right?).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You choose ONE weapon at first level.
As to why a player would choose a simple weapon for the class as opposed to the most exotic dpr champion they can get?
The answer is because the kensai is a magus and a player who plays one properly can be devastating with any weapon they pick. So a kensai who kicks butt with a staff, is a player worthy of respect.
should have posted this at not sleepy time for paizo and co, just saying, make sure to bump tomorrow.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
actually, he has proficiency in a single martial or exotic, but there's nothing that forces that particular weapon to be his chosen weapon... he could still choose a simple one like the staff or club, lackluster as the choice might be. (Is Kensai stackable with staff magus?)
the obvious intent is that it should be, but there's no obvious link between the "weapon of choice" and the single non simple proficiency. I can easily conceive of a kensai devoting his life to the intricacies of the sickle, mace, morningstar or some kind of spear.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'd rule that any kensai who chose a simple weapon would lose the martial/exotic profiency, they wouldn't be using it anyways.
I think the wording for the proficiencies should be "A kensai is proficient with all simple weapons", and then a seperate ability made called "Chosen Weapon (ex): A kensai must choose a single weapon as her chosen weapon, which is used for many of her class abilities. If the kensai's chosen weapon is martial or exotic, she gains the appropriate proficiency for free."
Fair 'nuff
Kinetic blasts are specifically called out as not being wielded, so any feat or ability that requires you to "wield" the weapon to gain the effect won't work with kinectic blast (E.g. Canny Defense).
I don't know if alchemist bombs or mystic bolts share the same wording, but I would expect the intent is for them to not be wielded. They, including kinetic blast, exist only at the moment of use, so they do not count as being "wielded."
well, you can't parry with a bomb flask or with a spell/spell like ability, so I guess those are out too... you don't "wield" an alchemical bomb, you throw it before it goes stale. Same thing with and instantaneous spell/SLA
Your chosen weapon is the martial/exotic weapon you choose under weapon proficiency.
where is this stated exactly?
where is this stated exactly?
Your chosen weapon is the martial/exotic weapon you choose under weapon proficiency.
A choice must be made for a weapon to be chosen.
Can you point to anywhere else that choice could be made?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'll FAQ this, since it's not explicitly stated as to what your "chosen weapon" actually is, and Paizo could've done a better job actually explaining that. I mean, there's nothing that explicitly says "Choose a single Martial or Exotic Weapon. You gain proficiency with this weapon, and is considered your chosen weapon for the purposes of the Kensai's class features." And there should be.
I will, however, say that the quoted sentence above is most likely the intent behind the "chosen weapon" stuff for the Kensai archetype.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
the first part says pick a weapon the second part says you get a free proficiency I don't see anything that says they must be the same weapon.
Some didn't see flanking rules referencing melee in the first paragraph was enforcing a melee only context in the second paragraph.
Should this go to FAQ they'd rule they are the same choice.
|
the first part says pick a weapon the second part says you get a free proficiency I don't see anything that says they must be the same weapon.Some didn't see flanking rules referencing melee in the first paragraph was enforcing a melee only context in the second paragraph.
Should this go to FAQ they'd rule they are the same choice.
I agree with your interpretation of the ruling, but hopefully this would be one of the quick and easy FAQs we've seen before where the answer was fairly obvious and they just clarified the wording.
|
|
I'll FAQ this, since it's not explicitly stated as to what your "chosen weapon" actually is, and Paizo could've done a better job actually explaining that. I mean, there's nothing that explicitly says "Choose a single Martial or Exotic Weapon. You gain proficiency with this weapon, and is considered your chosen weapon for the purposes of the Kensai's class features." And there should be.
I will, however, say that the quoted sentence above is most likely the intent behind the "chosen weapon" stuff for the Kensai archetype.
This would have been better wording - maybe it got cut because of word/page count?
In the rule book.where is this stated exactly?
Your chosen weapon is the martial/exotic weapon you choose under weapon proficiency.
Actually not
Wheras the link is obvious (that weapon of his choice is given so he can have any weapon he wants for his chosen weapon), nothing in the wording of any part of the text specifies the "chosen weapon" has to be the military/exotic weapon mentioned in weapon proficiency. Canny defence even specifies it may be any type of weapon... so it could even be a missile or thrown weapon, like, say, a crossbow.
where is this stated exactly?
Your chosen weapon is the martial/exotic weapon you choose under weapon proficiency.A choice must be made for a weapon to be chosen.
Can you point to anywhere else that choice could be made?
yeah, when you choose what your chosen weapon is.
I don't find the weapon & armor proficiency section to be a good place for class abilities to be defined. Especially when they do not specifically say that this weapon is the chosen weapon.
actually, he has proficiency in a single martial or exotic, but there's nothing that forces that particular weapon to be his chosen weapon... he could still choose a simple one like the staff or club, lackluster as the choice might be. (Is Kensai stackable with staff magus?)
No it's not because they both play with overlapping class features, such as armor and weapon proficiency for starters.
I admit that including odd "weapons" like kinetic blasts, alchemist bombs, and mystic bolts is probably a non-starter, but to those who say that it must be martial or exotic, is it ENTIRELY because of the wording in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency paragraph? Would there be any problem allowing someone to chose a simple weapon (such as an unarmed strike kensai, or a staff kensai) that I'm not seeing (such as a OMIGOD THIS COMBO IS SO BROKEN IF YOU ALLOW SIMPLE WEAPONS!!@@!!111!!)? I realize that there are exotic versions of some simple weapons (spear vs. elven branch spear) but not all.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The way most of the archetype is written, it is assumed that you have already chosen a weapon. And the only place where you are told to choose anything is in the proficiency section. It is the only "suspect" when we're looking for a definition of what could be your chosen weapon.
I do find it annoying that flavorful simple weapons get excluded this way, but I guess it makes a certain kind of sense. Kensais are about people obsessing over outre weapons. If you want a magus with a quarterstaff... there's the staff-magus archetype, that's what was intended for people who want a magus with a quarterstaff. (Even if you think that archetype is lame.)
I certainly think it wouldn't cause the downfall of civilization to allow the choosing of simple weapons, although I'd still limit it to manufactured weapons, and exclude natural weapons, bombs, rays and kinetic blast. That seems to be what kensai are about: real weapons, usually swords.
I admit that including odd "weapons" like kinetic blasts, alchemist bombs, and mystic bolts is probably a non-starter, but to those who say that it must be martial or exotic, is it ENTIRELY because of the wording in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency paragraph? Would there be any problem allowing someone to chose a simple weapon (such as an unarmed strike kensai, or a staff kensai) that I'm not seeing (such as a OMIGOD THIS COMBO IS SO BROKEN IF YOU ALLOW SIMPLE WEAPONS!!@@!!111!!)? I realize that there are exotic versions of some simple weapons (spear vs. elven branch spear) but not all.
Outside of RAW, I would have no issue with simple weapons, or even kinetic blade/kinetic whip.
I admit that including odd "weapons" like kinetic blasts, alchemist bombs, and mystic bolts is probably a non-starter, but to those who say that it must be martial or exotic, is it ENTIRELY because of the wording in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency paragraph? Would there be any problem allowing someone to chose a simple weapon (such as an unarmed strike kensai, or a staff kensai) that I'm not seeing (such as a OMIGOD THIS COMBO IS SO BROKEN IF YOU ALLOW SIMPLE WEAPONS!!@@!!111!!)? I realize that there are exotic versions of some simple weapons (spear vs. elven branch spear) but not all.
Not really.
Most of the "overpowered" weapons are usually Exotic or Martial in nature, so allowing something that isn't, wouldn't be particularly gamebreaking.
Don't forget that there are other weapons that actually count as weapons that would be categorized as their simple proficiency counterpart (Crossbow V.S. Underwater Crossbow, as one example, there are several others that have similar language,) for all intents and purposes, as stated in their description, so if someone wanted to be a Bo Staff Kensai Magus (assuming the archetypes are compatible), they can use an Exotic version of what is essentially the same weapon, and apply all of the benefits of the Simple version to it due to the text of the Exotic version stating that it counts as the Simple weapon for abilities and effects related to it.
The recent FAQ also specifically says that special abilities like mystic bolts and kinetic blasts are never valid choices for class features that generically enhance or work with weapons as a whole, so not only would the text trump it (because it specifies one of two types of manufactured weapons), but the FAQ keeps it under lock and key, too (because there is no specific mention of special abilities being eligible choices).
The recent FAQ also specifically says that special abilities like mystic bolts and kinetic blasts are never valid choices for class features that generically enhance or work with weapons as a whole, so not only would the text trump it (because it specifies one of two types of manufactured weapons), but the FAQ keeps it under lock and key, too (because there is no specific mention of special abilities being eligible choices).
I had forgotten about that FAQ. Thanks for pointing that out!
I admit that including odd "weapons" like kinetic blasts, alchemist bombs, and mystic bolts is probably a non-starter, but to those who say that it must be martial or exotic, is it ENTIRELY because of the wording in the Weapon and Armor Proficiency paragraph? Would there be any problem allowing someone to chose a simple weapon (such as an unarmed strike kensai, or a staff kensai) that I'm not seeing (such as a OMIGOD THIS COMBO IS SO BROKEN IF YOU ALLOW SIMPLE WEAPONS!!@@!!111!!)? I realize that there are exotic versions of some simple weapons (spear vs. elven branch spear) but not all.
A person who wants to magus with a staff should really be going the staff magus route, as going kensai does not give you the feat for one hand use, and other staff tricks that makes it so awesome
A person who wants to magus with a staff should really be going the staff magus route, as going kensai does not give you the feat for one hand use, and other staff tricks that makes it so awesome
I don't care if it's sub-optimal. Sometimes I have a concept in mind that I like to play, even if they turn out to be the weakest character in the party.
I once played a cook who was just a cook. Yes, he was an AWESOME cook, but he had no combat abilities AT ALL. True, he was very difficult to kill outright, but that was about it.
I also played a Kensai in 2e (while 1e was the place where they weren't allowed any magical weapons, I still played it the same way and took it to the extreme where he wouldn't use ANY magical enhancements, not to his strength or anything). He was really fun to play but there were some times where he wasn't nearly as effective as the rest of the party.
"OMIGOD THIS COMBO IS SO BROKEN IF YOU ALLOW SIMPLE WEAPONS!!@@!!111!!"
OOOO I have one I have one! Not broken in my book, but a good 'un.
Club + Shillelagh + Perfect Strike
UMD a wand of Shillelagh and then Enlarge Person yourself, quickdraw your large club when you don't want to Spell Combat with your medium one, and Perfect Strike for 24 damage (since 4d6 will all come up as sixes).
Of course, a bastard sword with similarly UMD'd Lead Blades and Enlarge Person'd will do 24 as well (3d8), and can stay one handed so you don't need to prance around saying "Oh, but Kensai doesn't say anything about the chosen weapon being one handed and I don't think it has to be martial or exotic either so I picked clubs!"
"Perfect Strike (Ex)
At 4th level, when a kensai hits with his chosen weapon, he can spend 1 point from his arcane pool in order to maximize his weapon damage. Don’t roll for damage—the weapon deals maximum damage. This affects only the weapon’s base damage dice, not additional damage from sneak attack, magical weapon properties, spellstrike, or critical hits. If the kensai confirms a critical hit, he can instead spend 2 points from his arcane pool to increase his weapon’s critical multiplier by 1.
This ability replaces spell recall."
Was a FAQ ever released regarding the link between your weapon proficiency of a marital or exotic weapon, and your chosen weapon and the two having to be the same?
*Ducks before the tossing of books and exotic objects*
That's what's called "splitting hairs". The Kensai is described as mastering the use of one specific weapon. You choose proficiency with a single martial or exotic weapon in weapon/armor proficiency. Then, nearly all of their abilities reference their chosen weapon as the foundation of their effects. It's willful ignorance to claim that the weapon you choose under weapon proficiency wouldn't be your chosen weapon, especially since no where else in the Kensai's ruleset does it mention the actual choosing of a weapon. If you really want to take the ridiculously pedantic argument and claim that the weapon you choose under weapon proficiency isn't your chosen weapon, then you don't even have a chosen weapon since nowhere in the rule block for Kensai does it mention actually choosing your chosen weapon.
Your chosen weapon is the martial/exotic weapon you choose under weapon proficiency. And, honestly, this explanation shouldn't really even be necessary.
So it's your contention that Paizo purposely made it so a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon? That makes sense to you?
So it's your contention that Paizo purposely made it so a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon? That makes sense to you?
That is a possibility, yes. It may be purposefully done, or not.
Considering that a (non-game) definition of Kensai says
"In ancient Japan, a kensei (gifted man, man of ability, or sword's saint; sometimes rendered in English as Kensai, Ken Sai, Kansei, or Kenshei) was an honorary title given to a warrior of legendary skill in swordsmanship.",
I'm almost surprised that the entire breadth of martial/exotic weapons are available, rather than it being limited to a list or fighter weapon group blades or similar.
I'll go ahead and FAQ flag this so that perhaps Paizo will tell us if it was intentional or not.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
So it's your contention that Paizo purposely made it so a Kensai can't choose a simple weapon? That makes sense to you?
It makes sense that a master of a weapon would choose a simple weapon? Something everyone could choose even a wizard. So your masters wouldn't prefer a more effective exotic weapon or martial weapon at least?
Plus the word chosen was used and the only place you choose is on proficiency.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
"You wish to know why I use a simple club, while other Kensai use the Katana or Wakisashi? Let me tell you a story."
"Many years ago, under an evil shogun, there was a simple farmer, who thanks to the shogun's policies was so poor he could not afford fancy armor or weapons. In fact, all he could afford to defend his famly was a piece of wood. Yet he trained and taught himself how to use that piece of wood better than all of the Shogun's soldiers and their expensive swords. With his simple piece of wood, he was able to lead a rebellion that defeated the shogun, though he himself fell in the final battle. His friend and ally, a Kensai himself, brought home the father's piece of wood to his family, and took the farmer's child to train in the art of the Kensai."
"So laugh if you will at my simple club. With this club, my father toppled a kingdom. It is more than enough of a weapon to defeat you."
I read it as follows. The magus can choose any single weapon they want as their chosen weapon. The Kensai is normally limited to simple weapons only. But they CAN if they wish to choose one weapon of any type be it single, martial, or exotic to be their special discipline. The reason that single isn't listed is because they are proficient with all single weapons by default.
If they do decide to make a single weapon their chosen weapon, then they get no martial or exotic proficiencies by class. The Staff Magus is an example of that latter principle in action.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Isn't the stance that the chosen weapon isn't necessarily the chosen weapon self-defeating? It's denying one implication (that all instances of "chosen weapon" are referring to the same weapon) to uphold a second (that Uncanny Defense allows you to make a second, unrelated choice), isn't it?
If you're going split hairs enough with me to say "the weapon I choose to take proficiency with isn't the same weapon that benefits from Canny Defense," I'll counter with, "Then you gain no benefit from Canny Defense, because it doesn't explicitly say to make a choice. You're referring to a NULL variable."
I'm going to have to agree.
If the weapon you choose to take proficiency in not your chosen weapon, then you are left with a NULL. There is no other mechanic in the class allowing a weapon to be chosen.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems odd and backwards for a GM to prohibit a character from making a choice for flavor/concept reasons that makes their character less effective, however.